Seriously ZoS? Werewolf get perma but not vamps? What this Double Standard?

MaverickConnor22b14_ESO · June 11

Ok like what the actual !!!! This is not cool in the slightest, Vamps SINCE day 1 have ask for a Perma For Lord, HAVE ask for reworks to some of there skill to be made more useful in a variety of content. BUT Werewolf, get perma, Werewolf get rework to all of there abilities that make them viable for all content? what the double standard here. What the Hate for Vamp Players? Like i cant seem to understand this at all? Anyone else feeling this? or is the Newness of werewolf making it to difficult for people to see it just yet?

<edited for Cursing and Profanity>

Luneca · June 11

It's just more inconsistency in the game. The best part are the patch notes themselves that seriously show a lack of -- oh I better just say ther are lacking and I am not convinced with the logic behind buffing WW. I can easily challenge every point on those patch notes on their face and collapse the argument.

Who seriously authorised the changes? Not even trolling. They need to come and join the discussion and explain over 90% of the logic they were attempting to use to justify the WW changes. Because it's bad and it's faulty, and it seriously undermines the image of the team responsible for these changes at ZOS.

Gabriel_H · June 11

Luneca wrote: »

It's just more inconsistency in the game. The best part are the patch notes themselves that seriously show a lack of -- oh I better just say ther are lacking and I am not convinced with the logic behind buffing WW. I can easily challenge every point on those patch notes on their face and collapse the argument.

Who seriously authorised the changes? Not even trolling. They need to come and join the discussion and explain over 90% of the logic they were attempting to use to justify the WW changes. Because it's bad and it's faulty, and it seriously undermines the image of the team responsible for these changes at ZOS.

It's not inconsistency, it's based on consistent lore and prior-game implementation. Vamps can use any skill without transforming, and always have the benefits of passives. Wolfies only have access to WW skills when transformed including their passives.

These are two different systems. Making them consistent would hurt not help Vampires, because if you honestly think that ZOS would allow a permanent 15% heal on damage done ... lol

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · June 11

Just wait another 2 years and we'll get yet another Vamp rework, maybe we'll actually get invis bats and good mist form back.

Luneca · June 11

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

It's just more inconsistency in the game. The best part are the patch notes themselves that seriously show a lack of -- oh I better just say ther are lacking and I am not convinced with the logic behind buffing WW. I can easily challenge every point on those patch notes on their face and collapse the argument.

Who seriously authorised the changes? Not even trolling. They need to come and join the discussion and explain over 90% of the logic they were attempting to use to justify the WW changes. Because it's bad and it's faulty, and it seriously undermines the image of the team responsible for these changes at ZOS.

It's not inconsistency, it's based on consistent lore and prior-game implementation. Vamps can use any skill without transforming, and always have the benefits of passives. Wolfies only have access to WW skills when transformed including their passives.

These are two different systems. Making them consistent would hurt not help Vampires, because if you honestly think that ZOS would allow a permanent 15% heal on damage done ... lol

"Lore" and the "prior game" must be respected during a rework for exactly what reason again? Because last I checked ZOS has otherwise never cared or respected that for any past decision, yet we can find it as an excuse for WW's current state?

It's simply a convenient excuse to use when the balance and decisions are challenged to claim that history matters or the proper implementation when ZOS doesn't not apply that reasoning anywhere else across the board.

But it's great that ZOS can make exceptions and cherry pick things, that's where the inconsistency lies. It wasn't too long ago that ZOS thought Blazing Shards needed it's front loaded damage halved, then we see things like WW come out, DK rework, etc. in short order.

It's really a bizarre way of balancing when they micromanage some skills, then release completely OP "rule breaking" nonconforming skills, gear, and "classes" like they just did in the past three patches.

You and others might take that as a serious and consistent attempt at running the game, but I sure won't.

tsaescishoeshiner · June 11

They're completely different concepts, why would they be the same? You can use vamp skills anytime and don't need the transform to use them. The transform would also have to be massively nerfed in order to stay up 100% of the time.

Werewolves have always been able to sustain indefinitely, they just don't need to be in combat for it anymore.

Vampire could use a rebalance (again), but that's a separate issue.

Nemesis7884 · June 11

Have there been any rumors about a similar vamp rework? Would be cool...

tomofhyrule · June 11

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Have there been any rumors about a similar vamp rework? Would be cool...

No. But there were also no rumors of a Werewolf rework until they showed off the schedule of Classes and no rumors of a 2H rework until it went on PTS. As such, it’s likely that that could be thrown in. Having said that, Vampire did get a ground-up rework in 2020, unlike every other skill line, so it is likely low-priority.

MaverickConnor22b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok like what the actual F!!!! This is not cool in the slightest, Vamps SINCE day 1 have ask for a Perma For Lord, HAVE ask for reworks to some of there skill to be made more useful in a variety of content. BUT Werewolf, get perma, Werewolf get rework to all of there abilities that make them viable for all content? what the double standard here. What the Hate for Vamp Players? Like i cant seem to understand this at all? Anyone else feeling this? or is the Newness of werewolf making it to difficult for people to see it just yet?

Different systems.

They’re going through one Class at a time, and non-Class lines are going in as needed. Is it “an outrage” that Arcanist is not redone despite DK’s rework.

Also remember, there is a major fundamental difference in Werewolf and Vampire in terms of how it operates.
Vampire is essentially an addition to your Class - you can slot as many (or as few) Vampire skills as you want, and buffs/debuffs from Vampire are permanently active. The transformation itself is a temporary buff with no downsides.
Werewolf is essentially a replacement for your Class. You lose access to all skills except the 5 WW-specific ones, so that also means there are major things WWs are unable to do (notably CC, heal others, range taunt). The buffs and debuffs of WW form are also only active in form.

In essence, Vampire Lord form is much more similar to transformation Ultimates like DK’s Magma and Necro’s Bone Goliath, both of which are pure buffs (no downsides) and therefore timed. The WW transformation ult is more like getting a new Class and being forced to use those skills. It’s not like Vampire Lord removes all of your skills and many of your Class passives and leaves you with only the 5 Vamp skills.

As for “vamps need to be viable in content,” uhhh… they have been for ages, unlike werewolves. Vampire used to essentially be required in endgame due to the no-penalty regen buff they got in the Undeath passive. The 2020 rework of vampire did mean it was no longer mandatory in endgame PvE, but a lot of supports (tanks) still ran it for ultigen and regen, and PvP loved Blood for Blood. The DK rework is what really killed vamps in PvP this year since all of a sudden there was a lot more Flame damage than there was.

So yeah, they are fundamentally different and can’t be compared. But even then, it’s likely that they’ll get a surprise refresh along with other single-skill lines like weapons and guilds.

anadandy · June 11

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Also remember, there is a major fundamental difference in Werewolf and Vampire in terms of how it operates.
Vampire is essentially an addition to your Class - you can slot as many (or as few) Vampire skills as you want, and buffs/debuffs from Vampire are permanently active. The transformation itself is a temporary buff with no downsides.
Werewolf is essentially a replacement for your Class. You lose access to all skills except the 5 WW-specific ones, so that also means there are major things WWs are unable to do (notably CC, heal others, range taunt). The buffs and debuffs of WW form are also only active in form.

This explanation is excellent!

Athory · June 11

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Soarora · June 11

What, should necromancers be in permanent pummeling goliath form too? I could see a buff to shapeshifter’s chain or a 5pc set to make transformations permanent but yeah, werewolf and vampire transformations are currently not comparable. That said, would be cool to have a vampire rework that makes the transformation more like werewolf and more like how it worked in Skyrim (aka, your skills change). But vampire isn’t werewolf, there’s nothing that says they need to be worked on at the same time. I’m sure ZOS will get to it, I mean, the other weapons are getting reworked and we didn’t know about that until we were told about the 2-hander rework. Who even knows what weapon is next?

Again, kids birthday party. Your world isn’t crashing and burning because it’s your sibling’s birthday. Let them eat their cake, your birthday will come a different day.

wolfie1.0. · June 11

Vampire got its rework when vampire lord was created.

Meanwhile at the time werewolf was nerfed again.

Werewolf has needed a rework longer than vampire.

Vulkunne · June 11

MaverickConnor22b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok like what the actual F!!!! This is not cool in the slightest, Vamps SINCE day 1 have ask for a Perma For Lord, HAVE ask for reworks to some of there skill to be made more useful in a variety of content. BUT Werewolf, get perma, Werewolf get rework to all of there abilities that make them viable for all content? what the double standard here. What the Hate for Vamp Players? Like i cant seem to understand this at all? Anyone else feeling this? or is the Newness of werewolf making it to difficult for people to see it just yet?

I wasn't going to say anything, but after test driving the new WW and seeing the final final FINAL changes, sheesh color me absolutely AMAZED at how much better this WW plays and feels. Regarding these WW changes, I just ... I'm speechless. It never occurred to me ZOS would listen to feedback and virtually ALL of the WW changes are simply amazing. So appropriate.

Now let's get back to your argument. When Vamp was well uhh... 'revamped' most of everyone loved the changes, WW was still in the trash floating around somewhere... but nobody cared about that. WW was LONG overdue for this kind update for a VERY LONG TIME. In fact, the last time WW was this good, orange-plad bell bottom pants were still stylish. I wore my pantaloons around and people said nice things about my style. It's like someone taking your head and placing on another part of your body and you having to walk around like that for years until it gets fixed. That's what it's been like playing WW until U50.

I think you have to stop being so mad about this and reacting this way and just be thankful. Be happy the WWs finally had their day. Be thankful that Vampirism itself was overhauled instead of leaving it as well, back in the day. You know a vampire is always in Vamp form really. No, it's not the same as an ult but you always get benefits and some cons as well but. Let's just be happy for the WWs and really all the amazing changes that came from U50. If anything, I'm sure Vamp will get addressed sooner or later. I'll square with ya and advocate that Vamp get the same kind of treatment, in time. When they ready.

FlameDark · June 11

Vampires have always had permanent abilities. The vamp ultimate, like every other ultimate in the game, has a timer. Would you like every ultimate to be endlessly cast until toggled off too? Boy DK is going to be crash leaping into everything then.

Imagine if you could only have ALL vampire abilities and passives only for a brief time, and those abilities you had to activate it with your ultimate to even access. Once it was over, you had to grind out more ultimate to access them again. Until you do that, you have no vamp passives like increase in magic passives or increase to sneak bonuses, you would have no vampire skills, abilities or vampire lord, nah da. Nothing. Untill you use your ultimate to toggle all those vampire passives and attacks back on. Sounds pretty awful? Since a lot of people go into vamp just for the passives. But THAT is what the werewolf before was like. Now they can actually have their skills in combat without having it ripped from them from a silly timer. They still can't use class or weapon abilities while using werewolf form, so arguably vamp is still in much better shape. As you can still blend your class abilities with it.

You are taking a single vampire ability for having a duration, and saying it is equal to every SINGLE werewolf ability and passive having a duration to even use, and saying that is the same. No it is not. Not even close.

Gabriel_H · June 11

Luneca wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

It's just more inconsistency in the game. The best part are the patch notes themselves that seriously show a lack of -- oh I better just say ther are lacking and I am not convinced with the logic behind buffing WW. I can easily challenge every point on those patch notes on their face and collapse the argument.

Who seriously authorised the changes? Not even trolling. They need to come and join the discussion and explain over 90% of the logic they were attempting to use to justify the WW changes. Because it's bad and it's faulty, and it seriously undermines the image of the team responsible for these changes at ZOS.

It's not inconsistency, it's based on consistent lore and prior-game implementation. Vamps can use any skill without transforming, and always have the benefits of passives. Wolfies only have access to WW skills when transformed including their passives.

These are two different systems. Making them consistent would hurt not help Vampires, because if you honestly think that ZOS would allow a permanent 15% heal on damage done ... lol

"Lore" and the "prior game" must be respected during a rework for exactly what reason again? Because last I checked ZOS has otherwise never cared or respected that for any past decision, yet we can find it as an excuse for WW's current state?

It's simply a convenient excuse to use when the balance and decisions are challenged to claim that history matters or the proper implementation when ZOS doesn't not apply that reasoning anywhere else across the board.

But it's great that ZOS can make exceptions and cherry pick things, that's where the inconsistency lies. It wasn't too long ago that ZOS thought Blazing Shards needed it's front loaded damage halved, then we see things like WW come out, DK rework, etc. in short order.

It's really a bizarre way of balancing when they micromanage some skills, then release completely OP "rule breaking" nonconforming skills, gear, and "classes" like they just did in the past three patches.

You and others might take that as a serious and consistent attempt at running the game, but I sure won't.

That's a lot of words just to say you don't know what inconsistency means.

Phantom4041 · June 12

All the skills in the Vampire class are completely useless, with the exception of Eviscerate/Blood for Blood. I agree that the skills need to be reworked, but the question is: how?

For the base skills, I don’t really have an answer other than simply replacing the entire skill set with new, viable ones.

As for Blood Scion itself, it should be reworked. The Scion form should function similarly to Werewolf, where your original skills are replaced with new vampiric abilities instead of it being a simple buff. Furthermore, the Blood Scion form should be made permanent. However, if we go this route, the form would need to be rebalanced.

Most of the passives are useless, with the exception of Undeath. The weakness that increases the cost of vampiric skills needs to go.

Kalle_Demos · June 13

Werebeasts and Vampires have always worked differently in Elder Scrolls. I agree that Vampires need work but whatever the end result looks like should be distinct from Weres.

This_0ne · June 13

Vampires can always use any of the abilities in their skill line, whereas a werewolf can only use them while transformed.

DestroyerPewnack · June 13

Does anyone remember when the vampire skill line consisted of an ult and only 2 active skills? Pepperidge farm remembers.

Foxtrot39 · June 14

Answer this with another question

How many people even used WW before in any content vs how many use vampire's passive/skill/ult ?

I was surprised to ever see a WW in ANY content, the only real bonus is that tanks or healers could get a DPS option without reshuffling gear and skill every time

But I sincerely saw maybe 3 WW outside altar areas in YEARS