Cooperharley wrote: »

I would like to see three-sided Deathmatch return as a permanent option, or at least as a regular scheduled queue.

I do not think 4v4v4 is perfect, and I do not think it magically solves matchmaking or combat balance. Third-partying is real, and some objective modes have their own problems. But for Deathmatch specifically, three teams often creates a healthier match than a lopsided two-team game.

In 8v8, when one side is clearly stronger, the match can feel decided almost immediately. The weaker team gets farmed, spawncamped, or gives up, and there is no meaningful second-place goal. In 4v4v4, the third team at least creates pressure on the leader, gives weaker players more chances to reposition, and makes the match less predictable.

That matters a lot when the BG population is not large enough for perfect matchmaking. If the matchmaker cannot reliably create two equal teams, then a three-team format can soften the damage by giving the match more moving parts.

I would not remove two-sided BGs for people who prefer that format. But I do think solo players should have access to a 4v4v4 Deathmatch queue. Keep the objective modes separate and tune them individually, because Chaosball, Relic, Domination, and Crazy King all have different problems. But Deathmatch is the mode where three-sided play makes the strongest case.

So my vote would be: keep two-sided for players who want a more direct competitive format, bring back three-sided Deathmatch for players who found it more fun and less predetermined, and keep working on matchmaking/combat balance either way.

Haki_7 wrote: »

@L_Nici wrote:

Its pretty easy to see what kind is better by the number of players taking part.

We had two 3 sided BG Events this year and both times you instantly got into one, never waited more than one minute on a BG that did not consist of the same 16 people just mixed differently. To be fair the Domination one was better as people did not exploit Shattered Path yet, still I had more fun with the 3 sided relic hunt too than I ever did with any 2 sided BG. 2 sided BGs get decided by which team wipes first, because then it just gets camped at spawn.

One thing I noticed about the relic event was how often every team ended up holding each other's relics without being able to deliver. Didn't that used to be extremely rare?

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Maitsukas wrote:

Moonspawn wrote: »

@LittleLionLeone wrote:

What are we even doing?

We are discussing the game-breaking problems that plague Battlegrounds.

And what exactly is the unexplained point of someone posting scores from completely random BG matches?

It simply wasn't possible to do this when BGs were 3-sided. Not in this quantity. Why do you think that is?

I got my answer.

It is the only answer so far. Just like imPDA 's explanation about matchmaking is the only one that fits with everything we've seen until this point:

imPDA wrote: »

If this system works as described, it does 2 things:
1) it tries to make as many people of the same MMR as possible into one game
2) it tries to make teams as equal MMR-wise as possible

So, two results of Elo are:
1) if number of players is big, it can successfully pick 16 players of the same MMR A+-a (like, 1500+-100 for example). It is possible in big MOBA games.
2) if number of players is not that big, it can pick any players to make groups look equal. Balancer can pick 6 "1500 MMR" players, one "200 MMR" player and one "2800 MMR" player, so team will be balanced at 1500. Another team can have all "1500 MMR" players.

You usually see result 2, I suppose, because from my feeling, there are not many players in PvP. If so, it is hard to make two equal groups out of equal players, so it picks some overskilled players and team them with low MMR players, and another team can have the same situation, that is why you usually see 2-4 players with positive KD and some damage, big score, and all other players are constantly dead, 0 damage, 0 score.

It is very rough estimation, and it will not be true in many cases, but you can estimate, that average winrate of you team is near 50%. If your winrate is 80%, winrates of 6 other players are 45 55 45 55 45 55, then winrate of last player should be close to 20% Once again, it is very rough estimation.

@Avran_Sylt wrote:

@Moonspawn
Regarding the 4 flaws of 2-sided:`
1. What has changed about positioning and target selection? You still want to try and focus down on those that seem like they take more damage than the rest, CC healers, layer burst, rushdown squishies or backline archers while being sure to be mindful of where you're at so as to not get swarmed and focused (unless built for it).

https://youtu.be/lXtK6U_-nCI

@Demonwolff wrote:

Haki_7 wrote: »

What is the meaning of ''zero damage ball carries'' and ''base jumping''?

Zero Damage ball carries are where the ball bugs out and fails to damage the carrier at all. Base jumping is where the Ball Carrier is able to "magically" return to their spawn. I didn't mention the one where the ball disappears and you cant see the person carrying it lol

https://youtu.be/mdAoYMeT6XI

Daoin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

The issue with BGs aren’t whether or not it’s a 3 team layout or a 4 team layout.

One of the flaws people have with purporting a 3 team layout is the idea that a 3rd team will inherently “breakup” any lopsided two way imbalance. That assumption is very flawed.

There’s nothing to prevent a Strong v Strong v Weak scenario and when that happens there’s no guarantee that Strong team #1 is going to save or in some way deliver some level of fairness for the weaker team.

The issues with BG are multiple, but, IMO the 3 biggest issues are:

1) Server latency / buffer post U50 (this got way worse)

2) Matchmaking

3) Fundamental mechanics.

The latency or lack of registration after the U50 update is horrible. This really affects the landscape of BGs and how various skills and builds perform in real time.

Matchmaking has been a very real issue for some time. No amount of changing a game modes headcount is going to offset bad matchmaking logic. That would be like trying to patch a leaking pipe with mud; it’s not the correct solution. It might seem like it would work out but it really doesn’t.

As for mechanics, well, that’s been a thing for a while too. Mastery passives did change the scope so to speak in terms of capability but what those Mastery passives did change didn’t necessarily deliver the precise mechanics or enhancements to a class to make them competitive against subclassed builds. In some cases they did, but in many others they didn’t. With subclassing being an element of PvP combat there’s a very real question as to whether certain mechanics have a place in combat anymore, or, if they do; to what extent.

If we’re going to have a server side response that’s questionable then mechanics need reflect that in both design and scale. Part of that comes from class refresh and (hopefully) a world & weapon refresh as well.

Also, everyone needs to bear in mind that as class refreshes occur there is going to be a growing amount of INCREASED imbalance in PvP. This is due to the growing nature of skill changes that go live with each patch. In this case we see DK and WW as high power builds; DK arguably being the strongest pure class but subclassing still residing at the top.

That means everyone who is NOT either: a WW, Pure DK, or some variant of the subclassed meta, then you’re going to be down on power until your class refresh. Whether or not Mastery passives elevate your build or not is questionable but for most they’re not going to see the pure power that resides at the top of PvP potential.

Because think about it, if that were the case then the Devs would be done and no further work would be needed as everyone would have comparable power; but that’s not the reality.

All of this impacts BGs, regardless of team size.

And as far as 3 team BGs go, I will say this Chaosball event is dog water! The maps are awful for this. The existing 3 team maps are fine for Relic or Domination / Crazy King but not CB! .. having someone grab the ball on Quarry and then duck into a map crevice, using it to avoid damage because the attacks won’t register through the gap in the wood is nobody’s idea of good combat. ..

Neither is having a ball carrier on Angavar spam either Warden or DKs wings and just persistently running around corners. With the current sever registration lag it means that more than half the efforts to try and stop the ball carrier or CC them with a non immune skill go unapplied and it turns into just 10 minutes of ring-around-the-rosie … I can’t speak for everyone but that got old back in Pre-k so I definitely am not looking to play that now.

with such a small pvp community i would think rather than go for any big scale changes in the future ask them to go back to basics first

@NxJoeyD wrote:

And as far as 3 team BGs go, I will say this Chaosball event is dog water! The maps are awful for this. The existing 3 team maps are fine for Relic or Domination / Crazy King but not CB! .. having someone grab the ball on Quarry and then duck into a map crevice, using it to avoid damage because the attacks won’t register through the gap in the wood is nobody’s idea of good combat. ..

Neither is having a ball carrier on Angavar spam either Warden or DKs wings and just persistently running around corners. With the current sever registration lag it means that more than half the efforts to try and stop the ball carrier or CC them with a non immune skill go unapplied and it turns into just 10 minutes of ring-around-the-rosie … I can’t speak for everyone but that got old back in Pre-k so I definitely am not looking to play that now.

https://youtu.be/Bo84TxLL1C0

Haki_7 wrote: »

Aren't the proposed solutions enough?