Erickson9610 wrote: »

VenomSheru wrote: »

Werewolfs should not have access to class masteries or class passives if battlespirit is active

Only on the condition that the nerfs it received during the PTS (which were incited by the interaction with Class Masteries) are reverted.

It sucks that you have to be a Sorcerer if you want to be a competitive Werewolf due to their Class Masteries being superior to everyone else's.

This isn’t true. The Sorc passives that truly apply here are: 1)Conservation which gives basic resource sustain but not Ulti so it’s only partially beneficial. & 2) Static Reverb which wouldn’t synergize well with WW … technically Calc Defense would proc but it providing the 6% portion of the effect in PvP is unrealistic so no experienced player would slot it for that.

The rest of the Sorc passives either require casting Sorc class skills or damage shields so nothing for Sorc is overly strong for WW

Warden Mastery passives are by far more beneficial for a WW

virtus753 wrote: »

VenomSheru wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

A single werewolve is fine even in BGs, as soon as they become multiples then it gets insanely annoying.

L_Nici wrote: »

A single werewolve is fine even in BGs, as soon as they become multiples then it gets insanely annoying.

A single werewolf is buffing the group twice… werewolf 6%* and class mastery group buff on top of that

*The unique ww damage buff doesn’t work, at least not on non-crit hits.

And if it does work on crit hits only, and is working as intended (as Kevin stated it was in the known issues post), then it’s a crit dam bonus rather than damage done. A very different story when crit dam has a hard cap.

Is this theory or have you gone against a WW in BG? They are hitting through 70% damage mitigation in one shot when standing in heals

Luneca wrote: »

Well you have people defending WW on the PTS section and trying to bait others, so maybe not. Anyone that thinks it is balanced, just think about a few things:

1. What is the actual cost of being a werewolf? What's the disadvantage? You tell me, I can't find it. Vampire is clear with fire damage which is prevalent everywhere.

2. With the skills so compressed as they are, what skills are comparable to anyone of them and achieve the same thing in a unit of time with the same bar space efficiency?

3. Why is it so easy to sustain on a WW and keep the form up? Both should not be true if the game were balanced, but they are true. Why? How is that balanced and fair?

4. Why is WW's CC a guaranteed stop and forced break free/delay similar to DK wings after the changes? This is a problem because it enables WWs to run and heal up without any real threat of being killed. And it shuts down melee. How is this fair and how is it balanced?

5. Why should a WW be essentially a heal-tank enabled by the WW passives and active skills? Why is this allowed with the least investment out of any system in the game and how is it fair and balanced?

6. Why HP% healing? The worst kind and least investment possible?

I can't find a downside to being a werewolf other than me being a furball. But of course the forums are filled with people desperate to pretend the game is fair, the game is balanced, the game takes skill in PvP, and that they are the ones that have that skill.

I fired 4x coldfires on WWs and they didn't die. To put that into perspective, I wiped out an entire ball group alone doing the same thing -- having 4x coldfire strike at once (yeah, you can do it with a certain trick and it all hits at once). The WWs weren't even healing each other and they had more tankiness than a ball group, and you have people on the forums pretending this is balanced?

Come on guys. No need to pretend that it isn't OP.

1) This is a poor faith argument, as there are downsides to playing WW. No Purge, one bar with no ability to change out the Skills for other ones, Poison weakness, no access to Weapon Passives, no ability to heal other players since no access to Weapons period (or Class Skills), high cost to maintain at 100 Ult every ten seconds (and that goes fast if you aren't regularly getting things to Devour), there are other things but this is just off the top of my head.

2) WWs have condensed Skills because of the very obvious single bar of WW-only Skills that can be used. There's no option to pick and choose Class or Weapon Skills across two bars, and there's no freedom to pick those Skills that even other 1bar builds have. I mean there's a Dev Note in the Patch Notes that even goes over this point.

3) It's not though, not on Berserker at least. It's 100 Ult every 10 seconds and that goes fast. Even with Minor Heroism Pots or Oakensoul, Rank 2 Call of the Pack, and doing a LA between every other attack or so isn't enough to keep the form going for long if I'm not able to consistently Devour things.

4) Uh, WW CC can be broken free from like every other hard CC, and it also grants the target CC immunity. A WW isn't getting that far away or using that many Skills in the half a second breaking free takes. Plus WW isn't the only thing that can Fear or create space. Sorcs can Streak. NBs can Cloak. There are all kinds of Shield Skills. Like...literally so many Skills let people "reset" combat basically so the fact you're trying to say it's only a problem when WW does it is confusing to say the least.

5) ...you aren't seriously asking why a Tank should be allowed to heal, right? I mean man you're going to be floored when you hear about Tanks with Vigor, Templar Tanks, Sorc Tanks with Matriarch and Crit Surge...I think you get the point. A Tank's whole purpose is to TANK, so being able to heal themselves is just a little bit important. This point makes no sense whatsoever because Templar's have a whole line with Passives dedicated to Healing.

In fact several Classes have Passives that affect their healing because basically every Class that's been added to the game has had one Skill Line for DPS, one for Tanking, and one for Healing. So genuinely, what point are you trying to make here? WW gets...no Passives for healing, actually. Insatiable Hunger isn't a Passive in the typical sense and is instead a Synergy, and its main purpose isn't to heal, it's to replenish Ultimate so you can stay in WW form.

Also you aren't genuinely asking why healing Skills should heal, are you? And you aren't trying to say it's somehow unreasonable for a WW to self-heal when literally every other Class in the game can, including Vamp?

6) I don't PvP so I can't speak on this being something that's a genuine issue or just more "old man yelling at clouds" like most of these other points have been. That said, PvP isn't the only game mode in ESO and a WW Tank being able to heal by HP % means they can stay alive better, which also means they're viable for harder group content. Which is one reason ZOS also gave WWs the ability to buff groups in other ways, such as with Feeding Frenzy. It was so that WWs can bring something to groups.

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Your Siege example isn't a very good metric for trying to claim WW Tanks are too OP either. I've seen people complaining that Siege is too weak and that people can just outheal/Purge it over and over on the forums. Just because you wiped a ball group doesn't mean anything if they had low Armor/HP/no one was Purging. If the WWs had built specifically into Armor and Health and were being smart, then yeah, they wouldn't die that easily. And of course they weren't healing each other, WWs CAN'T heal other players without something like Sentinel Of Rkugamz or other Sets that can heal others by the wearer healing themselves.

People like me who were defending WW on the PTS were doing so because literally all of the testing trying to prove it was OP were being doing in Duels, which are hardly the biggest PvP game mode and also not indicative of how WW would function in an actual PvP setting like Cyro or BGs. And people being able to become unkillable Tanks in PvP has been an issue for AGES, so trying to act like it's only a problem now that WW can do what people have been doing for years is disingenuous at best.

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I also don't get what the "they wouldn't be used in PvE" bit is supposed to mean in regards to OP's post because uh, yes, a LOT of people are using WW in PvE now that it's actually viable again. I've seen more WWs in the last couple of days than I have in YEARS. I'm playing my own again. Do you not do stuff in PvE Zones very often or something?

What have you done ZoS… this update is the worst thing to the game in my over 20000 hours of playing this… I love this game but you guys just broke it completely

Arunei wrote: »

VenomSheru wrote: »

What have you done ZoS… this update is the worst thing to the game in my over 20000 hours of playing this… I love this game but you guys just broke it completely

Literally every single time ZOS updates or adds something to make the game better, people make this exact same claim. Any time something is changed and people can't kill it in the blink of an eye, it's the same thing.

Hybridization "broke the game completely".
Subclassing "broke broke the game completely".
Grimoires "broke the game completely".
DK rework "broke the game completely".

You die to WW a few times or can't kill them and suddenly the sky is falling, the world is ending, the oceans are flooding. Yet someone in this very thread mentioned how they were getting absolutely annihilated as a WW.

Just because people can't kill things in 0.2 seconds doesn't mean they're OP or breaking the game. It means something is functioning differently than anyone is used to. And WW isn't doing anything new that people haven't already been complaining about for years, aka unkillable builds, so let's not act like it's a WW problem and that WW is somehow what's breaking things.

Instead of demanding nerfs for things that you don't like, maybe instead demand that the mechanics themselves that can allow such busted builds in general be looked at and brought into line?

Not only that, but your post LITERALLY SAYS "no one would use it in PvE still" even though more people are using WW in the last few days than they have in the last several years. Plenty of people are using it in PvE now.

All those didnt break the game ... they were fun .. do you even play the game or just going on and on here ... go play

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aagmq8bZEIw&surlp=IAE%3D

VenomSheru wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

VenomSheru wrote: »

What have you done ZoS… this update is the worst thing to the game in my over 20000 hours of playing this… I love this game but you guys just broke it completely

Literally every single time ZOS updates or adds something to make the game better, people make this exact same claim. Any time something is changed and people can't kill it in the blink of an eye, it's the same thing.

Hybridization "broke the game completely".
Subclassing "broke broke the game completely".
Grimoires "broke the game completely".
DK rework "broke the game completely".

You die to WW a few times or can't kill them and suddenly the sky is falling, the world is ending, the oceans are flooding. Yet someone in this very thread mentioned how they were getting absolutely annihilated as a WW.

Just because people can't kill things in 0.2 seconds doesn't mean they're OP or breaking the game. It means something is functioning differently than anyone is used to. And WW isn't doing anything new that people haven't already been complaining about for years, aka unkillable builds, so let's not act like it's a WW problem and that WW is somehow what's breaking things.

Instead of demanding nerfs for things that you don't like, maybe instead demand that the mechanics themselves that can allow such busted builds in general be looked at and brought into line?

Not only that, but your post LITERALLY SAYS "no one would use it in PvE still" even though more people are using WW in the last few days than they have in the last several years. Plenty of people are using it in PvE now.

All those didnt break the game ... they were fun .. do you even play the game or just going on and on here ... go play

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aagmq8bZEIw&surlp=IAE%3D

They were/are fun, eh? Funny how that works, funny how because you liked something that somehow means all the complaints that they've broken the game over the years null and void. I personally like all those things myself, but that doesn't change my point. My point was like just like all the people who claimed those things broke or are breaking the game, you're doing the exact same thing.

Also you can read my last few posts and see I clearly say I'm playing my WW again, and yes, I play. Or are we trying to invalidate points by "you don't play the game" now? WW also isn't breaking the game, just like those things I mentioned haven't broken the game. Something changes or gets introduced that someone doesn't like and suddenly the game is unplayable.

And no, but you don't get to demand only a mod or dev comment on your thread simply because you don't like the posts that are being made.

VenomSheru wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

VenomSheru wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

VenomSheru wrote: »

What have you done ZoS… this update is the worst thing to the game in my over 20000 hours of playing this… I love this game but you guys just broke it completely

Literally every single time ZOS updates or adds something to make the game better, people make this exact same claim. Any time something is changed and people can't kill it in the blink of an eye, it's the same thing.

Hybridization "broke the game completely".
Subclassing "broke broke the game completely".
Grimoires "broke the game completely".
DK rework "broke the game completely".

You die to WW a few times or can't kill them and suddenly the sky is falling, the world is ending, the oceans are flooding. Yet someone in this very thread mentioned how they were getting absolutely annihilated as a WW.

Just because people can't kill things in 0.2 seconds doesn't mean they're OP or breaking the game. It means something is functioning differently than anyone is used to. And WW isn't doing anything new that people haven't already been complaining about for years, aka unkillable builds, so let's not act like it's a WW problem and that WW is somehow what's breaking things.

Instead of demanding nerfs for things that you don't like, maybe instead demand that the mechanics themselves that can allow such busted builds in general be looked at and brought into line?

Not only that, but your post LITERALLY SAYS "no one would use it in PvE still" even though more people are using WW in the last few days than they have in the last several years. Plenty of people are using it in PvE now.

All those didnt break the game ... they were fun .. do you even play the game or just going on and on here ... go play

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aagmq8bZEIw&surlp=IAE%3D

They were/are fun, eh? Funny how that works, funny how because you liked something that somehow means all the complaints that they've broken the game over the years null and void. I personally like all those things myself, but that doesn't change my point. My point was like just like all the people who claimed those things broke or are breaking the game, you're doing the exact same thing.

Also you can read my last few posts and see I clearly say I'm playing my WW again, and yes, I play. Or are we trying to invalidate points by "you don't play the game" now? WW also isn't breaking the game, just like those things I mentioned haven't broken the game. Something changes or gets introduced that someone doesn't like and suddenly the game is unplayable.

And no, but you don't get to demand only a mod or dev comment on your thread simply because you don't like the posts that are being made.

Brother i am sorry you feel this way .. its not about me ...i am hardened veteran of this game ...currently ranked no 2 on PvP leaderboards ... i am talking about a systematic problem.. watch this video lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMvvkUjnhoY

Nothing of this changes the fact that people ALWAYS SAY "oh X thing is broken it needs to be nerfed it's ruining things" every time something new comes out or something is changed. People are still out here saying DK is OP and needs nerfing despite the fact that YES, DK is GOING to be stronger than the other Classes because THOSE haven't been reworked yet. You CANNOT have something be made better and stronger and yet somehow have it still be on the same level as stuff that hasn't been brought up to that level yet.

It is the EXACT same thing going on with WW now. Of course it's going to be stronger than most other things to some extent because only DK and WW have gotten their reworks so far. Please tell us how things are supposed to BOTH be made stronger and better, yet somehow stay at the same power as things that haven't gotten reworked yet?

This whole thing is going to happen again when Warden gets reworked next, I guarantee it. Because it'll only be DK WW and Warden that have been reworked so it'll still be most of the Classes untouched by then. People will probably yell that X thing is OP until at least half the Classes (probably more) have been reworked.

Also that build is running Shattered Path, a Mythic several of us warned over and over shouldn't work with WW because of how WW Ult works now. This is a problem with Shattered Path, NOT WW. We said over and over the Mythic should be toned down because of this very reason, people yelling WW is too OP because of how a busted item works with it rather than anything wrong with WW itself.

I can't believe how obnoxious every BG has been with dragon knights on every single team and now the anti-werewolf police want to be the ones laying down the law once again telling us what we can and cannot do. Some of us actually stuck with the werewolf despite the limitations and the humiliation that came with it for over a decade. Some of us still will after when and if the axe comes down again. They wouldn't want everyone just playing werewolves after all; even if it's the only reason all these new players that have been logging in decided to pick up the game again. How would they ever sustain the myth of this being a dead game? Also, I'm not happy about the telvar accumulation being a reason to keep people from porting out of Imperial City, but I'm not one that is going be appeased here.

Again who are you people? Haven’t seen you anywhere in a serious raid or BGs… you all just keep dropping here to spite this post…
I have no problem with your werewolf…they should not be able to use class sets or class mastery

I'll say the same thing I said after the Dragon Knight rework:

Every reworked class / skill line needs to have a huge damage nerf automatically applied to them in PvP. Make it a blanket -20% for PvP scenarios and you'll solve a lot of problems already.

It cannot be that DK and now Werewolf are so strong and will be for quite some time until all the other class reworks are done. The moment the last class rework has been completed, all of the blanket debuffs are getting removed.

Right now it's just not fun to play a non-reworked class.

Lekjih wrote: »

It's the whole pvp argument all over again. People hate anything that means they can't mow down their opposition like they're 30k mobs in overland. Once all classes have been updates, then we can double check ww and dk. Stop wishing for nerfs just yet, let everyrhing be updated and then tweak balance.
On a personal note, I can finally bring werewolf to a serious raid and get to enjoy it. I'd like that to last for a bit.

Oh do I have a lot to say about that... I've seen all the things flying about in ESO official forums since 2015 before I finally joined the fray... A notable example that came into my mind was DK complaints by NBs and Sorcs. They both hated the reflects and aoe cc, calling them oppressive. When... the whole DK class identity was a zone controller by being a tanky burn enemy down archetype. At the time, I was a Sorc main myself but I didn't think reflect needed to go.

Palumtra wrote: »

Meanwhile Vampire players: Look at me! I'm...MESMERIZING

Next thing you inow they sparkle.


Also Vampires are scary in PvP. Especially Blood for Blood

biovitalb16_ESO wrote: »

Introducing the "Poison of Vexation" - a healing debuff to make healing even more pointless.

Right, cuz 1 shotting players is just not enough

My only issue with WW isn’t really specific to WW, it’s the fact that Fear still has a bug that prevents reliable break free. I’m sorry but on a character where Claw Fury can scale to 96k damage over 4.7 seconds, any crowd control must have reliability to break free. This is the same issue with Charm but base or subclassed Wardens don’t have Claw Fury.

As for the overall WW in PvP, I’m glad they’re stronger, the point of the refresh was to deliver power. The only thing I’m undecided about with WW is the potential to scale their durability with such a low resource allocation.

WW by default has few downsides. They only have one bar but that’s only a negative if the player can’t get everything they need out of that one bar. The Devs put a lot of deliverables into the WW skill line so that’s not really a drawback here.

The reason I’m undecided is because subclassed builds have already been able to combine a lot of mechanics and output, all in one, within PvP. I don’t have an issue with WW being comparable but a subclassed WW or a WW that had access to class Mastery passives I’m on the ropes with.

Given that the Devs themselves have admitted that the Mastery’s behave with WW in unexpected ways and that the passives are more of an experiment, that’s what gives me pause here.

From the Dev notes it seems as though a degree of the PvE based power perspective with WW ended up making its way into PvP so I expect current WW is a bit overtuned but I don’t think WW needs a nerf but I think it’s worth looking into whether or not the Mastery’s should apply.

So odd that the OP says that werewolves have no disadvantages while bringing up vampires weakness to fire.. I guess he forgot the whole werewolves being weak to poison or the OP has actually never played a werewolf.