In a full group with characters on each Class, it is a net positive to have additional buffs. Penetration and Armor are particularly useful in PvP.

I'm okay with different buffs but please don't give templar a defensive one.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AlCiao wrote: »

Overall it seems good, but I don't like that the Minor Sorcery/Brutality buffs are being taken away from Sorcerer and Templar.

On what are you basing that?

It's in the link in the OP:

"For Sorcerers, instead of gaining a source of Minor Prophecy from their Dark Magic skill line, they now gain the ability to apply a unique Offensive Penetration buff to their group. Templars likewise gain a unique buff to replace Minor Sorcery, boosting their groups’ Armor."

AScarlato wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AlCiao wrote: »

Overall it seems good, but I don't like that the Minor Sorcery/Brutality buffs are being taken away from Sorcerer and Templar.

On what are you basing that?

It's in the link in the OP:

"For Sorcerers, instead of gaining a source of Minor Prophecy from their Dark Magic skill line, they now gain the ability to apply a unique Offensive Penetration buff to their group. Templars likewise gain a unique buff to replace Minor Sorcery, boosting their groups’ Armor."

Ah, at the bottom. Found it, thanks.

Erm ... AWESOME! Thanks, ZOS!

This is a massive step forward for end-game Templar tanks. Templar tank's only problem in end-game has been the lack of a unique group buff. Not only does this pair well with the class mastery passives, it's useful. Great job!

The Sorcerer one will lead to overpenetration (already an issue in content), and armor isn't too helpful for what was previously a damage/healing passive.

Cost reduction (1-2%? more?) would have been a nice one that benefits all roles, fits with the recovery theme present in the class, and doesn't cause an issue reaching a cap. One class could get Stam/Mag reduction and the other one Ultimate, for example.

Another helpful one for either class would be Ultimate generation. Or a % increase to Max Magicka and Stamina.

So a group that has a DK and a Templar benefits here, but they’d still benefit more from dropping the Templar/DW for a different class.

A solo Templar or group with no DK loses the 10% MaxPower modifier. How are they going to make that up? Most straightforward adaptation is to bring a DK in place of the Templar.

This is particularly strange when ZOS just gave Templars a bunch of flat WD/SD in their class mastery but are now removing the synergy between that and their own 10% boost to that stat. Do you want us to have high WD/SD and boosts to that as part of our identity or not? In one patch you say yes, let’s lean into it. In the next you say no, let’s neuter that benefit significantly for the Templar and their group. I’m lost when it comes to your vision here, beyond the fact that Templar’s in a worse and worse state as things go on and its refresh isn’t until next year.

Why not add a named buff to Status Effect damage on Nightblade, and give Templar critical chance?

Wouldn’t that make more sense?

Why is Templar, a class with already horrible damage, losing more damage?

Templar main. I don't want to lose my group offensive buff for a defensive buff, either. That sucks.

I'd prefer Minor Force or maybe even Minor Empower, which would mitigate the stealth nerf to Mora's Scribe and other buff-counting effects.

Feels bad eating nerfs as a base game class, while watching DLC classes get refreshed first. They even nerfed the aesthetics and theme of our class, changing the "divine warrior" spear into a Nighthollow Vampire clan motif. Someone on that dev team simply hates Templar.

When they say 'Templar' and 'Dragonknight', do they mean REAL ones? Or blender builds (Subclass) which are none of the above. It's good they're moving away from dps for EVERYTHING. Unique buffs for Pure Classes are definitely something we need. The fact that they're new is a nice change. I just dont see how this is going to help actual Templars and Sorcerers. At least when theyre playing Solo. They're already at a disadvantage with damage and while the buffs are cool, its not a good idea to be taking more damage away from Pure Classes. If they were already refreshed, perhaps we would have a better idea of the bigger picture but they are not sadly. Please Zos, don't let these apply to already out of control Subclass. Or give them even more Buffs.

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

When they say 'Templar' and 'Dragonknight', do they mean REAL ones? Or blender builds (Subclass) which are none of the above. It's good they're moving away from dps for EVERYTHING. Unique buffs for Pure Classes are definitely something we need. The fact that they're new is a nice change. I just dont see how this is going to help actual Templars and Sorcerers. At least when theyre playing Solo. They're already at a disadvantage with damage and while the buffs are cool, its not a good idea to be taking more damage away from Pure Classes. If they were already refreshed, perhaps we would have a better idea of the bigger picture but they are not sadly. Please Zos, don't let these apply to already out of control Subclass. Or give them even more Buffs.

These buffs have never been denied to subclassed builds. They come from specific class lines, not from class mastery. As for whether subclassing is the area of most concern when it comes to “out of control”, I’ll just point out those U50 200k+ ww and necro and nb and 220k+ sorc parses aren’t from subclassed builds. Class masteries have changed things substantially, vitriol against subclassed builds notwithstanding.

WalkingBomb wrote: »

I actually like the planned changes, redundancy would reduce how rewarding it is to have 1 of each class in the party; I understand the templar perspective where they would prefer something offensive over the armour buff, but in a party they would still be getting those other ones anyways. Bright Harbinger class mastery means having at least one templar in the group can provide unique party wide boosts regardless of this passive. It's actually necromancer who does not have any group buff in the class passive at all, but I expect this to be remedied with its refresh.

We aren't always in groups and when we are, not always in organized groups. I can think of zero scenarios where I'd want armor over my dps buff in most situations I am in, and even if it's a duplicate buff I'd still rather have full time access to it on my own than provide armor that hasn't been needed.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Two classes that are already at a disadvantage as DPS losing even more of it is not great. The new stuff sounds nice and all but it probably wouldn't break their power budgets to just let them have both or some other solution.

DPS isn't just the most played role in the game, it's also the one that will most fill groups. So a class being bad at DPS significantly limits it's ability to join groups and some extra armor doesn't make up for that.

I completely agree. Every MMO I've played have prioritized helping DPS perform well. As long as the party survives people are fine enough. I haven't ever seen much requests for unneeded defense buffs.

I think the solution the devs propose is far more interesting than just giving Templars minor brutality (same as DK) and giving Sorc minor savagery (same as NB).

Many people here are saying penetration is less meaningful, but I don't really agree.

As ZOS describes in the beginning, these were only ever situationally useful because they didn't quite stack with each other. If before U51 you had at least 1 Sorc and 1 NB in your trial group, after U51 you will literally see no difference.

And in situations where you only have 1 Sorc and no NB? like a 4-man dungeon, Solo Arena, or Infinite Archive? Well, those are situations where a unique penetration buff is actually useful. Where you are far less likely to be hitting the penetration cap, or where the addition of the unique pen lets you equip more gear and skills to boost crit instead of penetration.

Marto wrote: »

I think the solution the devs propose is far more interesting than just giving Templars minor brutality (same as DK) and giving Sorc minor savagery (same as NB).

Many people here are saying penetration is less meaningful, but I don't really agree.

As ZOS describes in the beginning, these were only ever situationally useful because they didn't quite stack with each other. If before U51 you had at least 1 Sorc and 1 NB in your trial group, after U51 you will literally see no difference.

And in situations where you only have 1 Sorc and no NB? like a 4-man dungeon, Solo Arena, or Infinite Archive? Well, those are situations where a unique penetration buff is actually useful. Where you are far less likely to be hitting the penetration cap, or where the addition of the unique pen lets you equip more gear and skills to boost crit instead of penetration.

To expand on that: If the extra penetration is enough to lose Crusher, it means tanks can use different enchants. Reduce weapon damage on a one hander is ~2.5% damage reduction from bosses, on a 2-hander it's ~5% and would have better uptime.

Yeah I get you, maybe group Minor Force could be a decent compromise to make it unique without it further pushing optimized party damage. Some setups would not benefit from that, but that's no big deal imo. At least it would be an offensive buff. I personally still prefer not having the exact same passive between these classes and think the hybridization of it is a good idea even if the templar takes a minor stray hit; will be all different after class refresh anyways. Necromancer has no passives or class mastery with group utility at all right now though, seems the odd one out more than any other; they do have the major vuln ultimate at least.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

thechalkdust wrote: »

Templar main. I don't want to lose my group offensive buff for a defensive buff, either. That sucks.

I'd prefer Minor Force or maybe even Minor Empower, which would mitigate the stealth nerf to Mora's Scribe and other buff-counting effects.

Feels bad eating nerfs as a base game class, while watching DLC classes get refreshed first. They even nerfed the aesthetics and theme of our class, changing the "divine warrior" spear into a Nighthollow Vampire clan motif. Someone on that dev team simply hates Templar.

As someone who only has a Templar, I couldn't disagree more. The group offensive buff is not needed or wanted by groups. Templar needs something that is. This is a positive step forward.

I have used my group DPS buff even as a tank all the time to help with low DPS teammmates. I have never seen anyone wish for armor buff.

Then you've not run harder content, where damage mitigation on the group matters. A 10% weapon damage buff on a low dps group is 10% of low. In a high dps group they source increases elsewhere, not from Templars.

No, I guess I don't do content where I'd want this buff. I'm sure most players don't. Most situations in the game this change is a downgrade. Just because it's unique doesn't make it good.