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What I predicted happened. The PvP mode in Vengeance is empty.
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Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!5 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
PCNA taken a little after 7:00 PM (NA prime time) and 2 alliances have low pop bonuses.
Low pop bonuses on a ~3x the player cap. i.e. a pop-locked GH yellow being transferred in entirety over to Vengeance would get the low pop bonuses, because the population is low compared to the cap.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!0 -
Alosis✭
Low pop bonuses on a ~3x the player cap. i.e. a pop-locked GH yellow being transferred in entirety over to Vengeance would get the low pop bonuses, because the population is low compared to the cap.
If that were true then why do other times of the day with 1 bar not with a low pop bonus? There would always be a low pop bonus with < 120 players and that's simply false. It can't be both ways.4 -
KiltMaster✭✭✭✭✭Yep, wish I were surprised. We told folks this mode would get boring after x amount of times of the same stuff.PC/NA
GM of "Kilts for Sale"
twitch.tv/thekiltmaster
He/Him6 -
JustLovely✭✭✭✭✭
✭And remember, there is an entire progression system to incentivize people to play vengeance right now and forever, and people still aren't populating the camp. The Veterancy system is entirely geared to promote vengeance and discourage GH players.6 -
Lokiator✭✭Yeah, it seems to be empty most of the time. Looking at the PC-NA leaderboards, there's been 100-120 players from each of AD and DC in the campaign long enough to put up a score. However, there's been over 200 EP players, which probably explains why I've seen their population tick up to 2 bars a few times.
I've been popping in regularly as an AD player, and I've only managed to find a group twice. Each time, we managed to get stuff done for about 15 minutes (capture a few resources and a keep), but then the "Red Wave" washed over us. Skill only gets you so far when your 8 player group gets swarmed by 30+ opponents. Each time, it didn't take long for players to just give up and leave after that.
Vengeance is very much a numbers game and the biggest army is always going to have an advantage. So long as that population imbalance remains, we'll probably see a lot of AD and DC players just queue for Grey Host instead where numbers are usually a little more balanced.2 -
Arrow312✭✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »Taken tonight at 20:30 UTC
This:
Is more players than this:
Regardless of the populations, the point for a lot of this is that Vengeance and Grey Host have different playerbases that do not really overlap much and The players who like Grey Host and not Vengeance have significantly fewer opportunities to get into Cyrodiil than they did before. No amount of arguments about the populations is going to change those facts. You are just as likely to get those people out of the GH queue and into Vengeance as you are to get the "I only play ESO solo and never do group content!" players to jump into the trial progs a week. If there are 80+ people in the queue for GH for any specific alliance, then those people are not able to play and would leave the game rather than join a mode they despise.
Blackreach needed to have stayed. At least until they released their 'small-scale' PvP mode. But they assumed that they could just force those people into Vengeance because "whatever, it's PvP, right?" which is not the way the players see it.
The last point is 100 % me. I don t wait an hour or more to get into Cyro and i dont play Vengence, my choice close ESO and go for another game. If BR was still avaible i would wait there but actually i go for others games.PC EU X'ing, Small Scale PvP
Arr0w3125 -
SolarRune✭✭✭✭With respect to the argument around numbers, ZoS could do a few things.
- make capacity/population markers mean the same thing for levels 1, 2 and possibly even 3 and just have a long tail on vengeance until it is locked, then we know they are showing the same thing
- actually publish the numbers above/below (or even numbers to the nearest 10)
- extend GH to the same pop as Vengeance - there is at least a group of PVPers saying they would suck up the lag, let them (I suppose the only caveate here would be it needs to not impact other parts of the game)
- They could publish numbers through the webiste like a steam charts like approach, so that its retrospective, but allows real numbers to be referenced in discussions like this.
There does need to be more work on the transparency here, otherwise things just get bogged down in circular arguments - unless thats what zos wants.6 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭Vengeance is a bad campaign. I had high hopes for it at first but given how slow progress has been, I've completely changed my mind. Due to AoE cap, PvP there is incredibly lopsided with the faction having a higher population dominating most fights. Skills are super generic and unmorphed, often locking you to a specific archetype (i.e. if you want to use mainly Sorc skills, you have to be a magicka class). Build diversity is practically non-existent there. Then there's also the restricted stat customization. Like, why do I have to follow some template to allocate my attribute points? Why can't I remove 15k mag from my 30k mag pool and dump that to my 30k stam instead? I don't need all that max mag sitting there. Why does it have to be a specific number set in stone by ZOS?
If the goal is to make PvP less laggy, then sure, that campaign achieved much greater success than GH, but at the cost of diversity and theorycrafting. But when you go full length into that, PvP becomes too basic and not worth the time. If I wanted to play something like that, I would have just played another game lol.Edited by hoangdz on June 11, 2026 8:19AM5 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Getsugatenso wrote: »What I predicted happened. The PvP mode in Vengeance is empty.
Expected outcome.Edited by edward_frigidhands on June 11, 2026 11:07AM2 -
L_Nici✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just go into the game, press J -> Leaderboards -> PvP -> Current campaign if you are in vengeance or home campaign if for whatever rerason you actually play that. You can see the active number of players up to a maximum of 500 there and compare pure numbers instead of bars.
Not sure how it is now, but on Tuesday afternoon Vengeance had 199 active players, while GH had 500+ (the list maxed out there) after everyones home campaign got reset on monday. So those 199 and 500+ actively chose those campaigns to be their home.PC|EU1 -
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭Taken tonight at 20:30 UTC
This:
Is more players than this:
It shows GH is full. It doesn't show how many people are queued, how many people would have liked to play GH and how many people swapped to Vengeance simply to work on their Veterancy. As long as GH is pop locked, you can not draw qualitative conclusions from such comparisons, because the conditions for a fair comparison are not met.
Imagine a bus between A and B with 50 seats and a train with 500 seats. There are 250 people wanting to travel from A to B. Some will compromise on the comfort of their travel, some wont. Can you conclude which of the two travel options is more popular by the number of tickets sold, if the bus tickets are fully sold out and the train tickets are not?
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LarsS✭✭✭✭✭Just go into the game, press J -> Leaderboards -> PvP -> Current campaign if you are in vengeance or home campaign if for whatever rerason you actually play that. You can see the active number of players up to a maximum of 500 there and compare pure numbers instead of bars.
Not sure how it is now, but on Tuesday afternoon Vengeance had 199 active players, while GH had 500+ (the list maxed out there) after everyones home campaign got reset on monday. So those 199 and 500+ actively chose those campaigns to be their home.
Those numbers does not give any information on the number of players playing on a campaign at a specific time. It shows the number of people who have the respective campaign as home campaign!
I am using Miats addon which give you a desent estimate on the number of people in a combat. From what I have seen, the biggest fights so far on primetime PC/EU are quite similar.GM for The Daggerfall Authority EU PC2 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Everyone that plays Greyhost regularly knew it would be dead on arrival
Notice all the comments here making excuses but none of them can say “You’re wrong”.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...6 -
LarsS✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Everyone that plays Greyhost regularly knew it would be dead on arrival
Notice all the comments here making excuses but none of them can say “You’re wrong”.
I play on both campaigns regularly and I can ensure you that non of the campaigns are dead on PC/EU.GM for The Daggerfall Authority EU PC5 -
amiiegee✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Everyone that plays Greyhost regularly knew it would be dead on arrival
Notice all the comments here making excuses but none of them can say “You’re wrong”.
I play on both campaigns regularly and I can ensure you that non of the campaigns are dead on PC/EU.
I play pc eu aswell and can assure you vengeance is literally empty and by far not as much action as gh
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L_Nici✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just go into the game, press J -> Leaderboards -> PvP -> Current campaign if you are in vengeance or home campaign if for whatever rerason you actually play that. You can see the active number of players up to a maximum of 500 there and compare pure numbers instead of bars.
Not sure how it is now, but on Tuesday afternoon Vengeance had 199 active players, while GH had 500+ (the list maxed out there) after everyones home campaign got reset on monday. So those 199 and 500+ actively chose those campaigns to be their home.
Those numbers does not give any information on the number of players playing on a campaign at a specific time. It shows the number of people who have the respective campaign as home campaign!
I am using Miats addon which give you a desent estimate on the number of people in a combat. From what I have seen, the biggest fights so far on primetime PC/EU are quite similar.
Yes and played it actively, because you only get listet, if you made at least 1 AP in that campaign. Also usually people set the campaign as home, they play on. So if way less people are listed on Vengeance as their home campaign, less people play Vengeance.
Also on its own that is true, the list shows everyone who played since the beginning of the campaign (or in GH case since Monday, as the individual Leaderboard got reset), which actually makes it even sadder that Venegance didn't even reach 500 individual players, but together with the bars constantly only at 1 so 0-99 in Vengeance terms, you can pretty confidently say, Vengeance is dead.Edited by L_Nici on June 11, 2026 2:57PMPC|EU0 -
Divine1976✭✭✭I played on Vengeance EU last night while queueing.
It was not empty and plenty of sieges took place
4 -
CAB_LifeClass RepresentativeJust as an aside to this convo: Why are people assuming that the 3X the size population cap is true when world shards cap at 200 and I’m highly circumspect that ZOS has developed some new sharding tech given their, uh, display of past technical prowess? Feels like marketing buzz and PR gaslighting to obscure for unpopular decisions. Has anyone actually recorded a 450 vs 450 battle in any of the playtests, which would’ve seen the largest player counts? I believe Cyro caps at 150 per side? Or is it 200? I can’t recall.
I’m legitimately curious as I had/ have no interest in Vengeance and didn’t participate in any of them. I also don’t have an issue with people playing it either, but the choice should be entirely voluntary and shouldn’t come at the expense of killing all but one other campaign.Fitness/ Gaming/ Fantasy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2qoTV-kge_bU90i2lgkyvA0 -
LarsS✭✭✭✭✭Just go into the game, press J -> Leaderboards -> PvP -> Current campaign if you are in vengeance or home campaign if for whatever rerason you actually play that. You can see the active number of players up to a maximum of 500 there and compare pure numbers instead of bars.
Not sure how it is now, but on Tuesday afternoon Vengeance had 199 active players, while GH had 500+ (the list maxed out there) after everyones home campaign got reset on monday. So those 199 and 500+ actively chose those campaigns to be their home.
Those numbers does not give any information on the number of players playing on a campaign at a specific time. It shows the number of people who have the respective campaign as home campaign!
I am using Miats addon which give you a desent estimate on the number of people in a combat. From what I have seen, the biggest fights so far on primetime PC/EU are quite similar.
Yes and played it actively, because you only get listet, if you made at least 1 AP in that campaign. Also usually people set the campaign as home, they play on. So if way less people are listed on Vengeance as their home campaign, less people play Vengeance.
Also on its own that is true, the list shows everyone who played since the beginning of the campaign (or in GH case since Monday, as the individual Leaderboard got reset), which actually makes it even sadder that Venegance didn't even reach 500 individual players, but together with the bars constantly only at 1 so 0-99 in Vengeance terms, you can pretty confidently say, Vengeance is dead.
I have a toon with which I have played extensively on both GH and Ven, it only shows the ap points I got on my home campaign GH. If I choose Ven the accumulated ap is 0! That is as it always have been.GM for The Daggerfall Authority EU PC0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Divine1976 wrote: »I played on Vengeance EU last night while queueing.
It was not empty and plenty of sieges took place
sieges, zerging, not fightsZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...3 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭tomofhyrule wrote: »Out of curiosity, for all Vengeance enjoyers in the chat:
If ZOS had instead released Vengeance along with both Grey Host and Blackreach, would that have been bad?
Nice strawman you have there. A someone who is not a fan of Vengeance, but who tolerates it so that I don't have to put up with class imbalance, ball groups, rubber banding, disconnects, trying four times to open a postern door (and many many other problems), let me just say: I couldn't care less about the question. The issue isn't, and never has been, that other modes of Cyrodiil exist, it's that they do not work.
I haven't been in Cyro since the release of sub-classing. It was a terrible experience for a pure-class on top of an already terrible experience for both the class and the performance. So why would I care if those campaigns exist or not? I have no opinion on it. Nobody I know who loves/likes/tolerates Vengeance has an opinion on whether there are 1, 2 or 500 standard rule Cyro campaigns. We care the campaign we are in functions.
End of Discussion. Nothing else needs to be said here. This tells you all you need to know on this topic. If you are one of the folks who don't like it then go complain to these bad actors who put us in this position, namely, as Gabriel said in this reply, the ball groups, imbalance (metas, emps, sorc/dk emps), server fatigue and so on, so forth. I could have posted and would have posted but I don't need to cause the point was made well enough here.
So please please quit complaining to us and go take the fight to them. Vengance crew is on the clock now. So ... deal with it maybe and try to understand we're not going back to that. It ain't happening. Vengeance here to stay and more to follow.Edited by Vulkunne on June 11, 2026 5:31PMI am thankful for all the people who have enabled me to succeed by contributing their time, patience, energy and talent towards our mutual success. Because of them:
Today Victory is mine. Long live the Empire.3 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If the goal is to make PvP less laggy, then sure, that campaign achieved much greater success than GH, but at the cost of diversity and theorycrafting.
And class imbalance.Taken tonight at 20:30 UTC
This:
Is more players than this:
It shows GH is full. It doesn't show how many people are queued, how many people would have liked to play GH and how many people swapped to Vengeance simply to work on their Veterancy. As long as GH is pop locked, you can not draw qualitative conclusions from such comparisons, because the conditions for a fair comparison are not met.
Imagine a bus between A and B with 50 seats and a train with 500 seats. There are 250 people wanting to travel from A to B. Some will compromise on the comfort of their travel, some wont. Can you conclude which of the two travel options is more popular by the number of tickets sold, if the bus tickets are fully sold out and the train tickets are not?
It's not a qualitative conclusion, it's a quantitive one. /shrugPC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!0 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Divine1976 wrote: »I played on Vengeance EU last night while queueing.
It was not empty and plenty of sieges took place
sieges, zerging, not fights
It's a war whose goal is to capture keeps. You know, grouping up, siegeing, and fighting at keeps.
There are 3 to 4 focal points at any given time, with a full 900 that will likely becomes 5 to 6 focal points.
I'm not sure what you think Cyro is supposed to be, and I'm afraid to ask.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!2 -
ToddIngram✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Divine1976 wrote: »I played on Vengeance EU last night while queueing.
It was not empty and plenty of sieges took place
sieges, zerging, not fights
It's a war whose goal is to capture keeps. You know, grouping up, siegeing, and fighting at keeps.
There are 3 to 4 focal points at any given time, with a full 900 that will likely becomes 5 to 6 focal points.
I'm not sure what you think Cyro is supposed to be, and I'm afraid to ask.
Bardok is a well known PvP main. We know he's online and playing because we see him there near daily.
You, on the other hand, have never been seen in Cyrodiil by myself or anyone else I know of.4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I also had GH as home. I switched it just because of this thread and because I hadn't PvPed since the patch and barely do anyway.
But I had GH previously just as force of habit. I've seen Vengeance pretty empty this time that I went in unlike previous times. Previously when I went in, it seemed the max amount of people it could be with 0 bars on console, which is different to 0 on PC. But this time it was pretty dead although still more than I ever saw in Ravenwatch. Idk if that was just because it was too early in the morning though. I'll try again this weekend.
Edited by spartaxoxo on June 11, 2026 7:10PM0 -
ZOS_HadeostrymodGreetings,
After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.
If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It just got released so I'll wait until awhile to see if it grows. Some people are very happy with it others not so much. I will say this. It holds larger populations so without floating caps it gets unbalanced fast. Usually one faction dominates unlike GH. I prefer more even fights then running the map on one faction.1 -
SandandStars✭✭✭✭✭Novel Perspective: A healthy PVP population requires stable game performance, with only minor lag issues that fall in line with gaming industry standards.
O.o0