Which NPC Werewolves should be next to receive the updated model?

Erickson9610 · May 30

From the March Dev Updates livestream, we see the sentiment that it would be nice to update the NPC werewolves in the game to use the updated models some day, but that it would be a large effort:
https://www.twitch.tv/bethesda/clip/VainHungryNoodlePMSTwin-Wuet5MuJAm7OyIbj

And indeed, in Update 50 we see that the NPC werewolves in the Hircine's Gift quest are using the updated models:

Thoreki (the female Nord who directs you to Songamdir in this quest) is even using the white-furred female werewolf model here! That's a bit of characterization that wasn't possible with the old model.

So, if the goal is to (over time) update all of the werewolf NPCs in the game to use the new model, which content should ZOS start with first? Ideally, all werewolf NPCs going forward should be designed to use the new models, so let's talk about existing content to be checked off the list.

In general, the fur colors of the werewolves should be converted as follows (old -> new):

brown -> ashen
grey -> ashen
white -> white
black -> black
dark black -> black

The undead and skeletal werewolf models have no counterpart to the updated model. Werewolf Behemoths are also left unchanged.

So far, I can think of three relevant pieces of content that should be prioritized this year, all of which happen in Q4:

The Wolfhunter DLC (March of Sacrifices & Moon Hunter Keep)

These two dungeons are the first two Solo Dungeons to be made. It would be a missed opportunity to not update all of the werewolf models in these dungeons in all difficulties of these dungeons.

Note that there are several unnamed werewolf enemies in both Moon Hunter Keep and March of Sacrifices. The werewolf enemies only appear towards the end of March of Sacrifices, just before the final boss, whereas they are all throughout Moon Hunter Keep, starting with the first boss fight.

One specific character who should get special attention is Mylenne Moon-Caller, who is the third boss of Moon Hunter Keep:

She should be updated to use the white-furred female model.

The Night Market

Since the Night Market is slated to return for the second time in late 2026 with various changes and improvements, this is a great time to update the appearance of Telunselmo, who appears in The Ruckus as an ambient character:

He should be updated to use the white-furred male model.

The Greymoor DLC (Includes the Western Skyrim & Blackreach zones)

Since this is becoming part of the base game in Q4, it would be worth updating the models used by various werewolf characters in these zones. The ones that come to mind are Otal and Vig from the Hordrek's Hunting Grounds World Boss, and the werewolf characters/enemies near the Dark Moon Grotto in Blackreach: Greymoor Caverns. Don't forget that Harrowstorms can spawn werewolf enemies.

It might be worth updating the rest of the Dark Heart of Skyrim DLCs as well, but I can see how this might be a bit much to do all at once.

Finally, I'd like to bring up a list I compiled a little while back of all of the female werewolf NPCs that I know of. I definitely still think that unnamed werewolf NPCs should have a randomized model while retaining their intended fur color, or maybe even their fur color can be randomized.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Now that we have male and female variants of werewolves, I hope ZOS remembers to swap the models of various female werewolf characters (not an exhaustive list):

Mylenne Moon-Caller, a white-furred female werewolf who is a boss in the Moon Hunter Keep dungeon.

Annyce, a gray-furred werewolf who transforms at The Wolf's Camp world boss in Glenumbra.

Vig, a white-furred werewolf who transforms at the Hordrek's Hunting Grounds world boss in Western Skyrim.

Nusana, a gray-furred werewolf who transforms during The Pack boss fight in the Blessed Crucible dungeon.

Hildegard, a gray-furred werewolf who is part of the Dark Brotherhood. Her Houseguest version randomly transforms briefly, and she also transforms during the Dark Brotherhood questline.

Flora Laftrius, a gray-furred werewolf citizen who transforms when you attack her in Skingrad (West Weald zone).

Captain Rhealt, a gray-furred werewolf who transforms when you approach her at the Lunar Fang Docks south of the Niben River Bridge in Cyrodiil.

Den Mother Toamna, a white-furred werewolf who is the boss of the Archon's Grove delve in Summerset.

Firwin, a gray-furred werewolf who transforms during the quest "A Father's Promise" in Malabal Tor.

Irvama Mothryon, a gray-furred werewolf citizen who transforms when attacked at the docks in Necrom (Telvanni Peninsula zone).

Nimriian, a black-furred werewolf who transforms under 60% Health and is the final boss of the Weeping Wind Cave delve in Reaper's March.

Ninette Gestor, a gray-furred werewolf citizen who transforms when attacked at the Wretched Spire in the Deadlands.

Seldine Second-Skin, a black-furred werewolf enemy found in Archon's Grove in Summerset.

Arienne Kerbol, a white-furred werewolf who transforms during the "Freedom's Chains" quest in Kerbol's Hollow in Bangkorai.

Angirgoth, a werewolf who transforms in the Rink of Frozen Blood in Veteran Maelstrom Arena. I'm a bit hesitant to include this one because while the character does transform and is female, she transforms into an undead werewolf, using the same model as Faolchu the Reborn:

This is a list of werewolves who have a confirmed werewolf form and are female. It would probably be easiest to automatically perform this conversion by using the character's sex, rather than hard coding a case for each of these (as well as any future) examples.

In addition to giving female werewolf characters the female werewolf model, I also hope unnamed werewolf enemies in the game are given a randomized chance to be either male or female, just like how generic humanoid NPCs use a randomized appearance. Of course, if the NPC starts as female in their human form, they should use the female werewolf model when transforming.

There are a lot of werewolf NPCs all over the game, from various citizens who transform when attacked to "base pop" enemies to characters who have entire storylines dedicated to them. I hope that over time, we'll see all areas of the game get this graphical refresh!

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Erin

meekmiko · May 30

Blessed Crucible has the The Pack boss fight where they all turn into werewolves in the middle of it.
I've had to run that a bunch since Tamriel Tomes started up, so it'd be cool to see them all updated hopefully.

SilverIce58 · May 30

Are the Werewolves of Glenumbra not getting an update? With the thieves guild content coming to the zone, the WWs of the zone should also be updated.

Erickson9610 · May 30

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Are the Werewolves of Glenumbra not getting an update? With the thieves guild content coming to the zone, the WWs of the zone should also be updated.

These werewolves are not updated yet:

I am not sure about the new Thieves Guild content, as I have not played through it yet. Hopefully any werewolves present in there (if any) are using the new models. That would save the developers work in the long run.

Hopefully they'll be updated soon! There are a lot of werewolves in this zone overall.

LunaFlora · May 30

dungeon bosses seem like the best first choice.
not the simplest to change but seems more important, especially with the solo versions of Moon Hunter Keep and March of Sacrifices releasing soon.

Lord_Hev · May 30

No, basegame werewolfs should largely retain the legacy model for more variety.

Would also like for legacy werewolf to be available to players as a skin, but seeing as how this basic request has been ignored by zos for templar jabs and the new DK refresh, this seems to be fallen on utter deaf ears.

Erickson9610 · May 30

Lord_Hev wrote: »

No, basegame werewolfs should largely retain the legacy model for more variety.

Would also like for legacy werewolf to be available to players as a skin, but seeing as how this basic request has been ignored by zos for templar jabs and the new DK refresh, this seems to be fallen on utter deaf ears.

I disagree. The variety should come from new fur colors made for the new models. We now have male and female models, which should be used on characters who didn't have a way to communicate that before. We would have so much more variety if these new models were used everywhere they could be used.

The old model is one of the first models created for the game. It's time for a graphical refresh.

Lord_Hev · May 30

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

No, basegame werewolfs should largely retain the legacy model for more variety.

Would also like for legacy werewolf to be available to players as a skin, but seeing as how this basic request has been ignored by zos for templar jabs and the new DK refresh, this seems to be fallen on utter deaf ears.

I disagree. The variety should come from new fur colors made for the new models. We now have male and female models, which should be used on characters who didn't have a way to communicate that before. We would have so much more variety if these new models were used everywhere they could be used.

The old model is one of the first models created for the game. It's time for a graphical refresh.

The old model is still distinct and infers natural logical werewolf subtypes that would exist. I'm not opposed to a few more key characters being given the refreshed model, but I'm against a complete total refresh on everything.

Erickson9610 · May 30

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

No, basegame werewolfs should largely retain the legacy model for more variety.

Would also like for legacy werewolf to be available to players as a skin, but seeing as how this basic request has been ignored by zos for templar jabs and the new DK refresh, this seems to be fallen on utter deaf ears.

I disagree. The variety should come from new fur colors made for the new models. We now have male and female models, which should be used on characters who didn't have a way to communicate that before. We would have so much more variety if these new models were used everywhere they could be used.

The old model is one of the first models created for the game. It's time for a graphical refresh.

The old model is still distinct and infers natural logical werewolf subtypes that would exist. I'm not opposed to a few more key characters being given the refreshed model, but I'm against a complete total refresh on everything.

The old model may be distinct, but that doesn't mean it looks good or fits the art style of the game anymore. At the minimum, the old model should get its own graphical refresh if it is to remain distinct from the new model.

Fix the toony proportions of the old model, add a bit more detail to the fur, and so on. It doesn't have to look exactly like the new models, but it's night and day how dated the old model looks compared to the new model.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · May 30

The NPCs should use the old model because the old model looks weaker and lesser, just view your form as purer as Hircine turned you, not sure why you want NPCs to have your powers.

Erickson9610 · May 30

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The NPCs should use the old model because the old model looks weaker and lesser, just view your form as purer as Hircine turned you, not sure why you want NPCs to have your powers.

Vykosa was also directly turned by Hircine, yet she looks different from all of the rest of the werewolves who were turned by Hircine. The NPC werewolves are even stronger than the player sometimes — just look at Mylenne Moon-Caller. In other words, there is no lore basis for werewolves to look like the old werewolf model.

I'm arguing in favor of making the NPCs look better with a graphical update. The most straightforward path is to gradually swap them over to using the correct model and fur color to represent them. We don't need 2014-era graphics sitting right beside 2026-era graphics — it'd be like if Skyrim had a few enemies using the Bloodmoon werewolf model. It was fitting for the game it was from at the time, but it looks out of place in the modern game. Yes, having multiple styles of werewolf gives variety, but the contrast between art styles and visual fidelity is the opposite of immersive.

Erickson9610 · June 1

meekmiko wrote: »

Blessed Crucible has the The Pack boss fight where they all turn into werewolves in the middle of it.
I've had to run that a bunch since Tamriel Tomes started up, so it'd be cool to see them all updated hopefully.

That's a good idea! In fact, the Blessed Crucible is one of the pieces of content we have to complete to unlock the Roar, Verdant Green Skill Style. I figure anything that's made relevant to players (such as a Tamriel Tome challenge, or is required for some other relevant achievement) should be given priority.

Werewolves that we're more likely to see should be updated first. Remember that flesh atronach in that one obscure piece of content that was still using the original model that was only years later updated to the current model? I figure this may be a repeat of that — eventually everything will be updated, but the more common things should be updated first.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · June 1

Erickson9610 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The NPCs should use the old model because the old model looks weaker and lesser, just view your form as purer as Hircine turned you, not sure why you want NPCs to have your powers.

Vykosa was also directly turned by Hircine, yet she looks different from all of the rest of the werewolves who were turned by Hircine. The NPC werewolves are even stronger than the player sometimes — just look at Mylenne Moon-Caller. In other words, there is no lore basis for werewolves to look like the old werewolf model.

I'm arguing in favor of making the NPCs look better with a graphical update. The most straightforward path is to gradually swap them over to using the correct model and fur color to represent them. We don't need 2014-era graphics sitting right beside 2026-era graphics — it'd be like if Skyrim had a few enemies using the Bloodmoon werewolf model. It was fitting for the game it was from at the time, but it looks out of place in the modern game. Yes, having multiple styles of werewolf gives variety, but the contrast between art styles and visual fidelity is the opposite of immersive.

The Vestige is also turned by Hircine and no these NPC Werewolves are not more powerful than the Vestige who has defeated the likes of of the Daedric Prince Ithelia, them being difficult for you ingame is no different to that overpowered Guar in Deeshan, a lot of players can solo them bosses.

Erickson9610 · June 1

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The NPCs should use the old model because the old model looks weaker and lesser, just view your form as purer as Hircine turned you, not sure why you want NPCs to have your powers.

Vykosa was also directly turned by Hircine, yet she looks different from all of the rest of the werewolves who were turned by Hircine. The NPC werewolves are even stronger than the player sometimes — just look at Mylenne Moon-Caller. In other words, there is no lore basis for werewolves to look like the old werewolf model.

I'm arguing in favor of making the NPCs look better with a graphical update. The most straightforward path is to gradually swap them over to using the correct model and fur color to represent them. We don't need 2014-era graphics sitting right beside 2026-era graphics — it'd be like if Skyrim had a few enemies using the Bloodmoon werewolf model. It was fitting for the game it was from at the time, but it looks out of place in the modern game. Yes, having multiple styles of werewolf gives variety, but the contrast between art styles and visual fidelity is the opposite of immersive.

The Vestige is also turned by Hircine and no these NPC Werewolves are not more powerful than the Vestige who has defeated the likes of of the Daedric Prince Ithelia, them being difficult for you ingame is no different to that overpowered Guar in Deeshan, a lot of players can solo them bosses.

The point in highlighting that the Vestige is not the only character to be turned by Hircine directly is to illustrate that their appearance is not tied to some notion of how "pure" they are. Vykosa was turned by Hircine but doesn't look like the player. We don't know if Thoreki was turned by Hircine, but she uses the new model regardless.

The updated model has nothing to do with the lore. It is entirely a meta thing — we wouldn't expect the graphical refresh to the base game zones that happened a little while back to be somehow tied to the lore, too.

Canonically, we're intended to defeat werewolves like Vykosa and Mylenne Moon-Caller in a group because they are powerful werewolves. But the piece of content they were designed for is a Group Dungeon, which is designed to be tackled by a group of up to 4 players. That's why they're so powerful — the gameplay in this MMORPG is designed to encourage group play.

The point of claiming that some NPC werewolves are stronger than the player is again to emphasize that there's no lore justification for the updated appearance to signal stronger powers. They would have the same powers even if their physical appearance was updated.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · June 1

Erickson9610 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The NPCs should use the old model because the old model looks weaker and lesser, just view your form as purer as Hircine turned you, not sure why you want NPCs to have your powers.

Vykosa was also directly turned by Hircine, yet she looks different from all of the rest of the werewolves who were turned by Hircine. The NPC werewolves are even stronger than the player sometimes — just look at Mylenne Moon-Caller. In other words, there is no lore basis for werewolves to look like the old werewolf model.

I'm arguing in favor of making the NPCs look better with a graphical update. The most straightforward path is to gradually swap them over to using the correct model and fur color to represent them. We don't need 2014-era graphics sitting right beside 2026-era graphics — it'd be like if Skyrim had a few enemies using the Bloodmoon werewolf model. It was fitting for the game it was from at the time, but it looks out of place in the modern game. Yes, having multiple styles of werewolf gives variety, but the contrast between art styles and visual fidelity is the opposite of immersive.

The Vestige is also turned by Hircine and no these NPC Werewolves are not more powerful than the Vestige who has defeated the likes of of the Daedric Prince Ithelia, them being difficult for you ingame is no different to that overpowered Guar in Deeshan, a lot of players can solo them bosses.

The point in highlighting that the Vestige is not the only character to be turned by Hircine directly is to illustrate that their appearance is not tied to some notion of how "pure" they are. Vykosa was turned by Hircine but doesn't look like the player. We don't know if Thoreki was turned by Hircine, but she uses the new model regardless.

The updated model has nothing to do with the lore. It is entirely a meta thing — we wouldn't expect the graphical refresh to the base game zones that happened a little while back to be somehow tied to the lore, too.

Canonically, we're intended to defeat werewolves like Vykosa and Mylenne Moon-Caller in a group because they are powerful werewolves. But the piece of content they were designed for is a Group Dungeon, which is designed to be tackled by a group of up to 4 players. That's why they're so powerful — the gameplay in this MMORPG is designed to encourage group play.

The point of claiming that some NPC werewolves are stronger than the player is again to emphasize that there's no lore justification for the updated appearance to signal stronger powers. They would have the same powers even if their physical appearance was updated.

Yet those same bosses are in the first set of dungeons having a solo version being made, also different strain of Lycanthropy.

Erickson9610 · June 1

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The NPCs should use the old model because the old model looks weaker and lesser, just view your form as purer as Hircine turned you, not sure why you want NPCs to have your powers.

Vykosa was also directly turned by Hircine, yet she looks different from all of the rest of the werewolves who were turned by Hircine. The NPC werewolves are even stronger than the player sometimes — just look at Mylenne Moon-Caller. In other words, there is no lore basis for werewolves to look like the old werewolf model.

I'm arguing in favor of making the NPCs look better with a graphical update. The most straightforward path is to gradually swap them over to using the correct model and fur color to represent them. We don't need 2014-era graphics sitting right beside 2026-era graphics — it'd be like if Skyrim had a few enemies using the Bloodmoon werewolf model. It was fitting for the game it was from at the time, but it looks out of place in the modern game. Yes, having multiple styles of werewolf gives variety, but the contrast between art styles and visual fidelity is the opposite of immersive.

The Vestige is also turned by Hircine and no these NPC Werewolves are not more powerful than the Vestige who has defeated the likes of of the Daedric Prince Ithelia, them being difficult for you ingame is no different to that overpowered Guar in Deeshan, a lot of players can solo them bosses.

The point in highlighting that the Vestige is not the only character to be turned by Hircine directly is to illustrate that their appearance is not tied to some notion of how "pure" they are. Vykosa was turned by Hircine but doesn't look like the player. We don't know if Thoreki was turned by Hircine, but she uses the new model regardless.

The updated model has nothing to do with the lore. It is entirely a meta thing — we wouldn't expect the graphical refresh to the base game zones that happened a little while back to be somehow tied to the lore, too.

Canonically, we're intended to defeat werewolves like Vykosa and Mylenne Moon-Caller in a group because they are powerful werewolves. But the piece of content they were designed for is a Group Dungeon, which is designed to be tackled by a group of up to 4 players. That's why they're so powerful — the gameplay in this MMORPG is designed to encourage group play.

The point of claiming that some NPC werewolves are stronger than the player is again to emphasize that there's no lore justification for the updated appearance to signal stronger powers. They would have the same powers even if their physical appearance was updated.

Yet those same bosses are in the first set of dungeons having a solo version being made, also different strain of Lycanthropy.

There is no proof that it is a different strain of lycanthropy. Again, this Werewolf skill line refresh was never meant to be an implication that the players get a different strain of lycanthropy from the rest — that's only the case for vampires in this game, which was explicitly stated and demonstrated.

By the nature of those characters being bosses, we can assume that they are still powerful in the lore. Since the content is being made into Solo Dungeons, we know that the gameplay is designed such that the player will be able to complete them solo.

AScarlato · June 1

I hope they get around to all of them because the old models just look lower quality, giving a feeling of a lack of cohesion.

I suppose we can say it's a different strain, but I can't get over the quality difference.

Erickson9610 · June 1

AScarlato wrote: »

I hope they get around to all of them because the old models just look lower quality, giving a feeling of a lack of cohesion.

I suppose we can say it's a different strain, but I can't get over the quality difference.

This is why I think the models should be updated. There is no proof that it's a different strain, as there's no mention of there being multiple strains. This is a graphical refresh (the same as the one for Two Handed, which again isn't in the lore) which is meant to make the video game look better.

The most straightforward path is to update the NPC werewolves to using the new models over time. If it's decided that actually there is another strain of the wolf kind of lycanthropy (for some reason) then the old model should be refreshed as well — which won't happen as it's a waste of resources.

The game looks jarring with the old and new models side-by-side. The old models must eventually be replaced, or updated themselves.

AScarlato · June 1

Erickson9610 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I hope they get around to all of them because the old models just look lower quality, giving a feeling of a lack of cohesion.

I suppose we can say it's a different strain, but I can't get over the quality difference.

This is why I think the models should be updated. There is no proof that it's a different strain, as there's no mention of there being multiple strains. This is a graphical refresh (the same as the one for Two Handed, which again isn't in the lore) which is meant to make the video game look better.

The most straightforward path is to update the NPC werewolves to using the new models over time. If it's decided that actually there is another strain of the wolf kind of lycanthropy (for some reason) then the old model should be refreshed as well — which won't happen as it's a waste of resources.

The game looks jarring with the old and new models side-by-side. The old models must eventually be replaced, or updated themselves.

I started playing my Werewolf again (I really need to find an updated build guide as mine is very old) and when I transformed I was almost shocked by what I saw compared to all the latest photos of the updated one. It's been quite a while and almost forgot how blocky it was.

Erickson9610 · June 1

@ZOS_Zenke Can you confirm whether the updated Werewolf models in Update 50 signify a different strain of lycanthropy?

@ZOS_Erin Will we see more NPCs using the updated Werewolf models in the future?