class mastery vs sub class PVP balance

Nser · May 15

After several testing on the PTS, I still stand by my opinion, and I’m sorry to say this, but it’s the truth.

CLASS MASTERY feels disappointing and poorly designed. A subclass skill tree is outperforming the entire class mastery passive , even though we are limited to selecting only two passives. There’s no real competition between them.

Pure class mastery needs to be buffed and also to be selecting all class passives becomes a viable and competitive option vs sub class.

Necrotech_Master · May 16

if your only looking at dps, i would agree i think subclass is still probably going to edge out a pureclass

if your looking at other roles (support dps, tank, or healer), then its very likely certain classes will be extremely powerful in those roles (looking mostly at templar/necromancer tanking, and warden support dps/healing)

Wuuffyy · May 16

Class mastery system are intentional bandaid fixes for underperforming classes awaiting their guaranteed rework.

None of them will be perfect.

Several class masteries and pure classes are performing adequately now on DPS charts and bringing unique power to the table. I absolutely agree that some of these are woefully underperforming.

I simply hope they’ll revisit underperforming masteries and over performing masteries BEFORE their reworks so we aren’t made to wait until each and every rework for a more adequate fix to those especially underperforming.

Gabriel_H · May 16

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if your looking at other roles (support dps, tank, or healer), then its very likely certain classes will be extremely powerful in those roles (looking mostly at templar/necromancer tanking, and warden support dps/healing)

The class mastery passives do nothing to help Templar tanking, because there is nothing wrong with it at present in terms of actual tanking. The massive under-representation at end-game is because a Templar tank lacks unique major group buffs - i.e. buffs you'd only find on the tank spec. And rightly or wrongly (wrongly by the way) tanks and healers are viewed as being there to provide buffs.

The passives only group wide buff is the extra 300 WD/SD, but that can be provided by a healer or DD, meaning it isn't unique.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · May 16

Subclassing is and has always been and will always be the problem. Its not Dragonknights hitting you in PvP, its Subclass. Real Dragonknights cant hit like that. Thats why everyone isnt running a Pure Dragonknight. Same thing in PvE, they aren't REAL Dragonknights. And these underwhelming Class Mastery Passives are not going to come close to Subclassing. Nerf, reign in or remove Subclass already! They should not be able to access every passive from ANY Class. They are NOT a Class. Or the Class sets either.

Silaf · May 16

Subclassing is acceptable only on tanks and healers for dps it leads to the same boring build.
This was an obvious consequence of subclassing and a bad design choiche made purely to sell the DLC.

ZOS you have a chance to fix it with class mastery passives please do so i want to return playing my class and not arcanist.

hoangdz · May 16

Is this for PvE or PvP?

Luneca · May 16

I don't understand the obsession with being a "pure class" or "subclass" and chasing damage numbers. If you want the best damage numbers, then you'll be running a specific build. It's operated that way in this game for a long time, how is it any different with subclassing to the point that it necessitates class masteries?

It makes no sense that they wasted time on class mastery passives to appease anyone running a "pure class," because if the intent was for classes to be competitive, they have to first be somewhat balanced. And when classes aren't balanced in different scenarios, but clearly have the same weaknesses then why not expand scribing to alleviate that so that players don't have to subclass to do it in the first place?

Instead we get another flavor of "uniqueness" that classes get, of course unequally, and of course not really tested or accounting for the possibilities they enable. What that ultimately means is that the game will simply be even more unbalanced than it is on live with some classes benefiting more than others.

The class masteries aren't going to make me take a necromancer out in PvP and PvE when the skill lines are lackluster, the corpse mechanic is bad, and scribing can't alleviate the classes major pain points. It's not happening.

I don't see anything changing for me regarding templar, or even arcanist in PvP contexts either.

I disagree with that Catalina person. The issue is not that subclassing is OP, it's that it allows you to cover holes you otherwise wouldn't. But the way you are covering it is to exchange a skill line, and skill lines themselves lack balance along with classes.

This is unlike the mythic situation where a single item set gives far too much power and covers more than one build decision, because you still are making decisions and those decisions still do come with consequences even if they are not immediately apparent.

The fact that people don't like subclassing itself has to do with what they must give up in order to do it. Ask them why and let's see their response. And we know it goes beyond just "we are all running the same build" because that was already happening before subclassing for META chasers in the first place.

Even if they got rid of subclassing, the problem of a lack of diversity will not disappear and that's because the game's core loop relies on damage at every turn. That is a problem in PvE and PvP and it makes combat one dimensional.

When combat can be simplified to just do more damage then all that matters is what allows you to do so. Which happens to be exact combinations because the skill lines are not balanced, the gear isn't balanced, the mythics aren't balanced, the CP stars are not balanced, armor lines aren't balanced, skill aren't balanced -- none of it is.

The idea that adding a few passives will somehow alleviate or moderate issues with the game's core design loop is simply misguided and a waste of time. But of course, little three star me that only fires siege all day doesn't know any better than players going deep into a dungeon fighting the same boss a trillion times or PvPers running around a tower.

Gabriel_H · May 16

Luneca wrote: »

The fact that people don't like subclassing itself has to do with what they must give up in order to do it. Ask them why and let's see their response. And we know it goes beyond just "we are all running the same build" because that was already happening before subclassing for META chasers in the first place.

Yes/No. Pre-subclassing there were (as viewed by the end-game community) about 6 viable tank builds, 6 viable healer builds, and a dozen or so DD builds. There is now 1 or 2 viable builds for each role.

Sub-classing was an attempt to diversify builds, but it restricted them further. This was in large part to the inherant imbalance between base classes and dlc classes - the former had mix role lines, the latter pure role lines. ZOS are now addressing that imbalance with the class refreshes.

Nser · May 16

Sorry i did not mention its for pvp balance

One thing maybe the class mastery will realy shine if the rework of classes come up maybe idk.

For pve i realy dont know what changed

VinnyGambini · May 16

Nser wrote: »

Sorry i did not mention its for pvp balance

One thing maybe the class mastery will realy shine if the rework of classes come up maybe idk.

For pve i realy dont know what changed

I'm quite sure that u50 pure sorc and pure warden kills every single subclass build.

hoangdz · May 16

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Sorry i did not mention its for pvp balance

One thing maybe the class mastery will realy shine if the rework of classes come up maybe idk.

For pve i realy dont know what changed

I'm quite sure that u50 pure sorc and pure warden kills every single subclass build.

Uh hello? DK? WW?

Dracane · May 16

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Sorry i did not mention its for pvp balance

One thing maybe the class mastery will realy shine if the rework of classes come up maybe idk.

For pve i realy dont know what changed

I'm quite sure that u50 pure sorc and pure warden kills every single subclass build.

Uh hello? DK? WW?

No, the agenda must be upheld. Only Sorc is strong, every other class is bad.

Wuuffyy · May 16

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Sorry i did not mention its for pvp balance

One thing maybe the class mastery will realy shine if the rework of classes come up maybe idk.

For pve i realy dont know what changed

I'm quite sure that u50 pure sorc and pure warden kills every single subclass build.

Uh hello? DK? WW?

No, the agenda must be upheld. Only Sorc is strong, every other class is bad.

Well hold on now. Pure class templar kinda looks OP if you spin 3x, hop on 1 leg, and do a handstand.

VinnyGambini · May 16

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Sorry i did not mention its for pvp balance

One thing maybe the class mastery will realy shine if the rework of classes come up maybe idk.

For pve i realy dont know what changed

I'm quite sure that u50 pure sorc and pure warden kills every single subclass build.

Uh hello? DK? WW?

No, the agenda must be upheld. Only Sorc is strong, every other class is bad.

DK and WW are reworked classes, It's obvious that they beat subclass builds. But agenda must be upheld, sorcerer community will always defend their class.

Necrotech_Master · May 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if your looking at other roles (support dps, tank, or healer), then its very likely certain classes will be extremely powerful in those roles (looking mostly at templar/necromancer tanking, and warden support dps/healing)

The class mastery passives do nothing to help Templar tanking, because there is nothing wrong with it at present in terms of actual tanking. The massive under-representation at end-game is because a Templar tank lacks unique major group buffs - i.e. buffs you'd only find on the tank spec. And rightly or wrongly (wrongly by the way) tanks and healers are viewed as being there to provide buffs.

The passives only group wide buff is the extra 300 WD/SD, but that can be provided by a healer or DD, meaning it isn't unique.

so an 8% max hp heal per second for free as long as they have sacred ground is not OP for tanking? lol

to think of that as not OP is kind of mind boggling, especially in cyro

hoangdz · May 20

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Sorry i did not mention its for pvp balance

One thing maybe the class mastery will realy shine if the rework of classes come up maybe idk.

For pve i realy dont know what changed

I'm quite sure that u50 pure sorc and pure warden kills every single subclass build.

Uh hello? DK? WW?

No, the agenda must be upheld. Only Sorc is strong, every other class is bad.

DK and WW are reworked classes, It's obvious that they beat subclass builds. But agenda must be upheld, sorcerer community will always defend their class.

Why does DK get strong class masteries if it’s also a reworked class?

Dracane · May 20

hoangdz wrote: »

Why does DK get strong class masteries if it’s also a reworked class?

Questions over questions, aren't they?

Gabriel_H · May 21

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if your looking at other roles (support dps, tank, or healer), then its very likely certain classes will be extremely powerful in those roles (looking mostly at templar/necromancer tanking, and warden support dps/healing)

The class mastery passives do nothing to help Templar tanking, because there is nothing wrong with it at present in terms of actual tanking. The massive under-representation at end-game is because a Templar tank lacks unique major group buffs - i.e. buffs you'd only find on the tank spec. And rightly or wrongly (wrongly by the way) tanks and healers are viewed as being there to provide buffs.

The passives only group wide buff is the extra 300 WD/SD, but that can be provided by a healer or DD, meaning it isn't unique.

so an 8% max hp heal per second for free as long as they have sacred ground is not OP for tanking? lol

to think of that as not OP is kind of mind boggling, especially in cyro

Where did I say it wasn't OP? Not to repeat myself but, I said it's not providing anything worthwhile for tanking, as there is nothing wrong with the class in terms of actual tanking.

As for PvP. A pure Templar is so far behind other classes and sub-classed builds it will have no impact.

acanca · May 21

On what classes, in which game modes?

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if your looking at other roles (support dps, tank, or healer), then its very likely certain classes will be extremely powerful in those roles (looking mostly at templar/necromancer tanking, and warden support dps/healing)

The class mastery passives do nothing to help Templar tanking, because there is nothing wrong with it at present in terms of actual tanking. The massive under-representation at end-game is because a Templar tank lacks unique major group buffs - i.e. buffs you'd only find on the tank spec. And rightly or wrongly (wrongly by the way) tanks and healers are viewed as being there to provide buffs.

The passives only group wide buff is the extra 300 WD/SD, but that can be provided by a healer or DD, meaning it isn't unique.

so an 8% max hp heal per second for free as long as they have sacred ground is not OP for tanking? lol

to think of that as not OP is kind of mind boggling, especially in cyro

Where did I say it wasn't OP? Not to repeat myself but, I said it's not providing anything worthwhile for tanking, as there is nothing wrong with the class in terms of actual tanking.

As for PvP. A pure Templar is so far behind other classes and sub-classed builds it will have no impact.

You can kinda do a funny-ish build on templar with the good old rallying, balorgh, acuity and using the 600 wep damage and max hp hot passives. With how common the stuck in combat bug is and how much ult you get from the hot constantly you can instantly nuke the first person you see and even without ult you are at 7.5k weapon damage with really really good survivability.

So i honestly dont think pure templars will be bad, i think in fact it will be a pubstomp class even without the balorgh cheese. But the sustain imo holds the class back and the change to beam when subclassing was first introduced took away a lot of lethality from the class for sure

Jabbs_Giggity · May 21

If it's been mentioned, I didn't read it yet. IMO the Class Masteries should apply IF you are subclassing to gap the loss of class passives. Passives FROM the subclassed skill lines should be locked out so you are selecting skills to gap the bridge of gameplay.