Like the above said, there is no possibility ZOS would put a similar skill on all classes. Why? Because subclassing still exists, and it could just be stacked. It would just result in their same old "buff-nerf" cycle they had in the past when they've claimed they are going a new direction.

But even if not, the skill itself is a problem along with the entire skill line. Sustain should have never been moved out of Earthen Heart IMO, but I wasn't on the forums to say anything about this skill when it was released or other DK changes.

I honestly don't understand how there wasn't any push back for lots of these DK changes, esp. whip getting that massive buff in damage and still healing.

Jabs never approached the power of whip and got nerfed not too long ago, and it's a channel. What exactly was the rationale behind many of these DK changes?

I don't think we'll ever truly know because the patch notes are not really an adequate explanation when there's an obvious counterargument to every comment made, and ZOS' own design philosophy with all the other classes being challenged by their changes for DK.

But, like someone said on the forums (can't remember who or where I read it), what ZOS did with DK is harming the player base and they are making a lot of assumptions that many of the players will continue to be here and wait for the "refreshes" of other classes that are absolute jokes, esp. necromancer.

I'm sure there can be counters. But it cannot be right to take sustain out of the game completely.


my build used to need 2k+2k sustain plus druid's resurgence to break even. now I need nothing except pushing a button every 4 seconds which doubles as delayed burst, all while sprinting in 50k armor nonstop.

and no doubt soon others will come up with even more broken builds than what we have now.

I can only say once again that all I put more into sustain with the old combustion passive was one charged trait. So this isnt really a big change for dk.

Nordstern wrote: »

I can only say once again that all I put more into sustain with the old combustion passive was one charged trait. So this isnt really a big change for dk.

Yeah, the several thousand points of Stam/Mag recovery I am getting from CoF completely pale compared to the (at best) 450 (in standard recovery format) from Combustion. Totally helpful take.

I do not mean this in a derogatory way, but this is a clear display of ignorance. CoF can easily generate 5-10 times more than Combustion can under perfect conditions. Reliably, on regular builds.

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Personally I don't understand how you can give infinite sustain to one skill. Let's calculate this - I'm missing 15k stam, or mag, or both, this means 2250 recovery from this sill alone. If we add 600 base recovery, we have basically 2800 recovery, both resources.

So you don't need anymore Orzorga food (you can use sugar skulls), and you don't need anymore tri stat potions, you can slot armor + spell resistance potions.

Sugar skulls max resource increase increase your damage and healing by about 5%. Resistance potions, increase your tankiness by about 10%. So overall, this 1 single skill grants you 20% more powerful character (10% tankiness + 5% dmg + 5% healing), while also being very nice delayed burst skill. Even if this skill do not deal dmg at all, it's still easily top 3 skill in the game.

Seriously? Slotting 1 skill = 20% more power? And now it will also heal you, so it will be like 30% more power? How this is going live?

Probably because every class will end up with something very similar to it. As with basically all things DK, it only stands out because it was the first class to be touched.

Like, look at WW sustain in this patch cycle. It went from highly bad to completely trivialized.

You are feel to free however you want about it but I think that ZOS realizes that most players hate worrying about sustain and that providing easier mechanisms to achieve it is a popular feature with the vast majority of players.

Look for Wardens to get their sustain improved when the U51 PTS hits.

Pinktraining wrote: »

Frankly, making Sustain too simple is detrimental to the game. Moreover, this renders sets with Sustain in 2-4 bonuses , or Sustain passives and Mundus to worthless.

Given the arms race for maximum damage and how easy it has become to manage resources in order to enhance the competitiveness of weaker players, we might as well just remove everything related to Sustain from the game altogether.

Frankly, infinite or near infinite sustain has been a think since Wretched Vitality/Roska became a thing. The only players that are generally running out of resources in PvP are ones that are being 1) zerged down, 2) are spamming roll (core of flame or anything similar still will not allow infinite streak/dodge), 3) those that aren't building correctly.

Add to this, anyone in a group with their heals covered by a healer are far removed from any sustain issues and are only susceptible to bombs. The last one has been the case for over half a decade now I'm fairly certain.

Reminder that you believe that necro is OP and nightblade pales in comparison. I just like reminding things other people advocate for, it's a pastime.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Frankly, infinite or near infinite sustain has been a think since Wretched Vitality/Roska became a thing. The only players that are generally running out of resources in PvP are ones that are being 1) zerged down, 2) are spamming roll (core of flame or anything similar still will not allow infinite streak/dodge), 3) those that aren't building correctly.

Your comparison is only 50% right because sustaining with Wretched/Roksa vs HoF are fundamentally different. While it's incredibly easy to build for infinite sustain with Wretched/Roksa, keeping damage alongside is an issue. You are always sacrificing damage/defense to gain this kind of recovery. This isn't the case for HoF, as it allows for near unlimited sustain without needing a single sustain set. Most DKs in Cyrodiil are playing with sub 1k recovery and using armor pots. That level of sustain has never been achieved in the game. The closest thing we got to that was Sorc with Dark Deal, but it too cannot drop tri-pots nor come close to the efficiency of HoF.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You are sacrificing negligible damage when you are getting 2 burst moves (merciless and beetles/blastbones), a spam able like surprise attack, a damage ult like incap, and several passives (like current sorc) just giving you 5-10% for free from subclassing

No, it is not "negligible damage". When you slot either Roksa or Wretched Vitality (in some extreme cases, both sets together), you are giving up:

Monster set:
1) Balorgh - between 75 - 300 WD and 1.7k - 6.9k penetration in a real fight
2) Bloodspawn - 13 ult gen and 3.7k armor for better ult uptime and more tankiness

A 5-piece set
1) Null Arca/Gorethief - massive burst proc to help 1-shot targets
2) Order's Wrath/Essence Thief - Maximum crit chance + crit damage or unlimited stam sustain + high damage

I can guarantee you right now that if you put an Assassination/Animal/X player wearing Wretched or Roksa against a Sorc with just Conservation of Energy's sustain passive (no Font of Power, no BM healing off any skill), or any class with equivalent built-in god-tier sustain, the Assassination/Animal/X player would be put on the back bar 90% of the duel.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I sacrifice one set to have infinite sustain, if I even need it as I may have 1-2 resource skills (netch and could be rune) already... while losing minimal as 1-2 passives from subclassing have made up for this.

You don't need to sacrifice anything on DK or Sorc next patch. You can build maximum damage and defense, while still getting sustain from their built-in passives/abilities. There's practically zero trade-offs.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

It's funny you mention dark deal as that is quite literally core of flame but with a channel, in aspect. It used to be a different story when it was bashable consistently but became an inconsiderable 'weakness' after the CC changes for being interrupted, etc. (as you're essentially near uninterruptable in a way that is truly punishable, especially when paired with streak).

Dark Exchange is a channel and only restores HP + mag or stam. HoF completely shadows it by being an instant cast AoE burst (which is part of your active rotation) that also restores HP, mag, and stam. It is currently the best ability in the game by a large margin by providing 3 benefits in 1 package (damage, sustain, healing). No other ability comes close.

Firstmep wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Personally I don't understand how you can give infinite sustain to one skill. Let's calculate this - I'm missing 15k stam, or mag, or both, this means 2250 recovery from this sill alone. If we add 600 base recovery, we have basically 2800 recovery, both resources.

So you don't need anymore Orzorga food (you can use sugar skulls), and you don't need anymore tri stat potions, you can slot armor + spell resistance potions.

Sugar skulls max resource increase increase your damage and healing by about 5%. Resistance potions, increase your tankiness by about 10%. So overall, this 1 single skill grants you 20% more powerful character (10% tankiness + 5% dmg + 5% healing), while also being very nice delayed burst skill. Even if this skill do not deal dmg at all, it's still easily top 3 skill in the game.

Seriously? Slotting 1 skill = 20% more power? And now it will also heal you, so it will be like 30% more power? How this is going live?

Probably because every class will end up with something very similar to it. As with basically all things DK, it only stands out because it was the first class to be touched.

Like, look at WW sustain in this patch cycle. It went from highly bad to completely trivialized.

You are feel to free however you want about it but I think that ZOS realizes that most players hate worrying about sustain and that providing easier mechanisms to achieve it is a popular feature with the vast majority of players.

Look for Wardens to get their sustain improved when the U51 PTS hits.

Cool. And down the line you will see block cost increases and such, beacuse the type of sustain CoF provides lends itself to permablocking.
And we have been thru infinite sustain metas before and to no one's suprise it was tanky bruiser heaven, just like it is for dks right now.

Sustain is a core pillar of ESO's gameplay, it's what enabled a no cooldown approach to skill design.

If they made CoF provide recovery instead of just plain resource return, it would be a different story altogether, as at least dks would have to drop block once in a blue moon.

Outside of PvE, I've seen many builds 'perma block' prior. I find it HILARIOUS that the pitch to nerf a reworked class now is 'but em sustain'.

I'll just drop these here:



(much wow, nothing lost)



(wowzers, a whole 2 pc this time)



(and an end-all set for a 5 piece).

///

Hmm, since these buffs are to make pureclass compete, I wonder what kind of skills I get to make up for damage lost building sustain on the flip side... while subclassing (the competition):



(wowzers again, major and minor breach on a burst skill)



(ope, there's a sustain skill with a purge, your wep/spell buff, and a potential increase to damage)



(WOW! 20% increase damage off of a 70 cost ult- wowwwwww)



(Surprise attack coming in with some of the highest consistent DPS for a standard spam able with a guaranteed crit to boot)



(WOWWWW, my crit buff and tooltip on a burst move higher than 90% of the skills in the game provide up-front)



(good ol' FREE crit damage of course)



I mean shoot, darn- HOW will I make it IF I even need to run a sustain set???

If you can't hold up while subclassing, just say something. No wonder why you're getting packed up by werewolves on PTS /s.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Personally I don't understand how you can give infinite sustain to one skill. Let's calculate this - I'm missing 15k stam, or mag, or both, this means 2250 recovery from this sill alone. If we add 600 base recovery, we have basically 2800 recovery, both resources.

So you don't need anymore Orzorga food (you can use sugar skulls), and you don't need anymore tri stat potions, you can slot armor + spell resistance potions.

Sugar skulls max resource increase increase your damage and healing by about 5%. Resistance potions, increase your tankiness by about 10%. So overall, this 1 single skill grants you 20% more powerful character (10% tankiness + 5% dmg + 5% healing), while also being very nice delayed burst skill. Even if this skill do not deal dmg at all, it's still easily top 3 skill in the game.

Seriously? Slotting 1 skill = 20% more power? And now it will also heal you, so it will be like 30% more power? How this is going live?

Probably because every class will end up with something very similar to it. As with basically all things DK, it only stands out because it was the first class to be touched.

Like, look at WW sustain in this patch cycle. It went from highly bad to completely trivialized.

You are feel to free however you want about it but I think that ZOS realizes that most players hate worrying about sustain and that providing easier mechanisms to achieve it is a popular feature with the vast majority of players.

Look for Wardens to get their sustain improved when the U51 PTS hits.

Cool. And down the line you will see block cost increases and such, beacuse the type of sustain CoF provides lends itself to permablocking.
And we have been thru infinite sustain metas before and to no one's suprise it was tanky bruiser heaven, just like it is for dks right now.

Sustain is a core pillar of ESO's gameplay, it's what enabled a no cooldown approach to skill design.

If they made CoF provide recovery instead of just plain resource return, it would be a different story altogether, as at least dks would have to drop block once in a blue moon.

Outside of PvE, I've seen many builds 'perma block' prior. I find it HILARIOUS that the pitch to nerf a reworked class now is 'but em sustain'.

I'll just drop these here:



(much wow, nothing lost)



(wowzers, a whole 2 pc this time)



(and an end-all set for a 5 piece).

///

Hmm, since these buffs are to make pureclass compete, I wonder what kind of skills I get to make up for damage lost building sustain on the flip side... while subclassing (the competition):



(wowzers again, major and minor breach on a burst skill)



(ope, there's a sustain skill with a purge, your wep/spell buff, and a potential increase to damage)



(WOW! 20% increase damage off of a 70 cost ult- wowwwwww)



(Surprise attack coming in with some of the highest consistent DPS for a standard spam able with a guaranteed crit to boot)



(WOWWWW, my crit buff and tooltip on a burst move higher than 90% of the skills in the game provide up-front)



(good ol' FREE crit damage of course)



I mean shoot, darn- HOW will I make it IF I even need to run a sustain set???

If you can't hold up while subclassing, just say something. No wonder why you're getting pack up about werewolves by on PTS /s.

I'm not sure why you are being so hostile, but whatever.
Neither roksa nor wretched allows for permablocking.

Yes other classes have strong skills. So what?
My point was that cof allows for an unhealthy playstyle and removes one of the core pillars of esos combat.

We can talk about how the strongest dot class doesn't even use it's strongest dot beacuse it doesn't have to since it has so much damage built in everywhere else, but this topic is specifically about Core of Flame. And btw tons of ppl subclass, you guessed it, Ardent flame, specifically for CoF.

Even if every class turns out to be as strong as dk after their rework, I still don't like the overall approach of having to be amazing at everything for classes.

It's not about class envy, I just don't like the direction overall.

Your bit about WW, I dont what you are getting at, the main issue I see with ww is it's interaction with sorcs Coe, outside of that WWs are plenty manageable with kiting.

You don't need a PhD to see the harm Core of Flame can cause to game balance.
Just like in U46 PTS, you could see how unbalanced skill lines could harm the game environment through subclasses.

Therefore, there's absolutely no need to wait until all classes are reworked before adjusting Core of Flame. It's an obvious danger, a skill destined to be nerfed even after all classes are updated, so why not nerf it now?

All of your examples are technically true in regard to the comparison between V1 classes and subclassed builds. However, reworked classes and certain class mastery passives FAR exceed subclassing's power ceiling.

Yea you do lose tankiness and access to better sets. DK, WW, and Sorc on PTS do not need to crutch on Essence Thief, Wretched Vitality, or Roksa because they have nigh-unlimited sustain. This enables them to maximize damage by running Oak Father, gain superior healing + damage with Order's Wrath, or spec for full tankiness with Mara's Balm.

A build with permablock capability is fine IF that's the only thing it can do. What's NOT fine is when you combine permablocking with 40k+ resists and enough damage to 1-shot players.

Heart of Flame + Incinerate provide greater burst, while also giving Major Prophecy, 15% missing stam + mag, and 15% missing health PER SECOND (soon to be 15% of your max HP instead).

You don't need Major + Minor breach when you have full penetration with Corrosive Armor. In fact, most DKs are currently sourcing all of their penetration from this ultimate and using several forms of ult generation to increase this ult's uptime. This allows them to allocate their freed-up penetration stat to other offensive ones by using swords/axes and Charged/Infused traits. This is much more efficient than spreading your stats everywhere like a standard PvP build.

For non-DK builds, Onslaught achieves similar effect, enabling the user to front-load all their penetration stat into crit damage/weapon damage. My current PTS Sorc build uses a Nirnhoned Battle Axe and Onslaught. My base pen is only 4k without Major Breach, but when I use Onslaught that won't matter because I'll have full pen regardless of what my opponent is wearing. To increase the uptime on this ult, I use Bloodspawn for my monster set.

This skill PALES in comparison to Conservation of Energy (CoE) and HoF. It's not even close.


Too bad, that 20% debuff is purgable. Reworked DK and U50 Sorc can afford to use Mara's Balm because they have so much damage, so Incap is basically ineffective against them. Even if they don't use Mara's Balm, U50 DK and U50 Sorc are casually running around with 39-40k HP while dealing 5-6k DPS. Good luck bursting that with your Incap lol.


Surprise Attack is worse than Blood for Blood (Bfb) and Molten Whip.

Gets reduced by 50% against DK wings. Not only that, but my DK's Molten Whip hits just as hard as Spectral Bow lol. On my Sorc, I just permablock with Conservation + Bfb, so Spectral Bow can't really do anything.

Take a look at DK's passives and Sorc's damage passives.

You will still need more damage than this

I'm sorry but I've had zero problems vs Animal/Assassination/X builds even on my U49 pure Sorc. Normally, they are only hard to deal with because of Warden Charm. That's it. The moment you remove that buggy ass CC, they become a non-issue. All of their damage is blockable, and when you consider the fact that V2 DK and U50 Sorc have enough sustain to permablock, you shouldn't really lose to any of these meta subclassed builds.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I wonder why DK, WW, and a class mastery for a non-reworked class do this. Or the progenitor dark deal which also nets you… minor berserk and major force. Probably a mystery.

I wonder what their goal is…

The goal is probably to trivialize sustain even further? Also, Dark Deal doesn't give you Major Force... It gave Minor Force for 10s, then ZOS decided to remove it after increasing the Minor Berserk duration to 20s from 10s. Considering how Monomyth already gives Minor Berserk, that was a flat out nerf for Sorc's damage.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I hope I don’t need to show what Monomyth Reforged and Rallying Cry do (they’re both ‘tank sets’ that give you damage… doesn’t stop there either)…

Everyone knows what they do. I'm not sure how they are related to the argument though.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Or that hurricane is a damage move that gives your armor buff. For everything you mentioned ‘but I give up —-‘ I can give you a set/skill/etc. that efficiently gives you 2 or more lanes by itself.

What is your point here? I stated that HoF allows you to gain damage by forgo using a sustain set completely. I don't understand how this is related to the argument.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Real trade offs haven’t been a thing for a while. The only thing you’ll truly trade off is stam, or stam for health to be truly tanky (to the point where you’re more difficult to burst because of said health). Block is 50% mitigation with SO many free reduction increases and dodge roll is 100% immunity from any ST. If you are building correctly, regardless of whether you win a sustain war or not- your opponent is one good rotation from having their hairline removed by your burst.

Running stam netch and essence thief alone net you the ability to block against one person nearly at will+ spam heals to infinitely stalemate.

There are still real trade offs. For example, the meta Assassination/Animal/X builds still requires sourcing recovery from Orzoga's Smoke Bear Haunt, tri-stat potion, and Sustained by Suffering CP, on top of Essence Thief, Netch, and/or Rune Focus. You could try to play with lower regen, but you'd FEEL it immediately. Meanwhile, HoF is on a completely different tier because it gives you so much sustain that you are able to use Bewitched Sugar Skull food, drop tri-stat potions for Health/Spell Resist/Physical Resist potion, drop Sustained by Suffering CP for Juggernaut/Boundless Vitality, and drop Essence Thief for Oakfather or another damage set. By definition, the Assassination/Animal/X builds are trading damage and mitigation for recovery, while HoF builds practically trade nothing. This difference is why HoF is so much stronger than your sustain examples. If you had tried to do the same thing on those subclassed builds, you would have gained similar damage and tankiness as HoF builds, but you would have also gassed out much sooner because you didn't have HoF lol. Don't believe me? Test it yourself.

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Frankly, infinite or near infinite sustain has been a think since Wretched Vitality/Roska became a thing. The only players that are generally running out of resources in PvP are ones that are being 1) zerged down, 2) are spamming roll (core of flame or anything similar still will not allow infinite streak/dodge), 3) those that aren't building correctly.

Your comparison is only 50% right because sustaining with Wretched/Roksa vs HoF are fundamentally different. While it's incredibly easy to build for infinite sustain with Wretched/Roksa, keeping damage alongside is an issue. You are always sacrificing damage/defense to gain this kind of recovery. This isn't the case for HoF, as it allows for near unlimited sustain without needing a single sustain set. Most DKs in Cyrodiil are playing with sub 1k recovery and using armor pots. That level of sustain has never been achieved in the game. The closest thing we got to that was Sorc with Dark Deal, but it too cannot drop tri-pots nor come close to the efficiency of HoF.

I would bet many Septims that Dark Deal/Conv will restore both resources by the time that the Sorc re-work arrives.

These single-resource abilities are going the way of the dinosaur.

Luneca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Running stam netch and essence thief alone net you the ability to block against one person nearly at will+ spam heals to infinitely stalemate.

Hold up. You're talking about that set you have to run and collect the buff/sustain and trying to claim it's equivalent to a skill that you can press at any time, get more than it cost near instantly, and heal + gain magicka + gain stamina? Essence theif's built in opportunity cost is that you can be stopped from obtaining that buff (unless they changed it).

That most players don't immobilize in addition to CC to pressure users of that set is a playstyle issue, not a general balance one. General player behavior does not make Essence Thief OP. What does is when something is already out of line and player building can further that to unimaginable extents.

Again, unlike all the other sustain skills in the game Core of Flame doesn't have a real limit (except being bound by resources that can be stacked extremely high and improve the performance of the skills to ridiculous levels), all other sustain skills have a concrete limit to what they provide. Their skill trees they appear in are also limited. Do they heal and do they do it anywhere near as much?

This is not the case for DK's core of Flame. Who, that isn't an NB is going to take Siphoning Strikes over Core of Flame? That's before looking at the damage component.

You might not run any hybrid builds, but on my hybrids the skill is even more powerful than anyone can imagine. I simply refuse to use it because I know it will be due for a nerf. And I also just fire siege 99% of the time anyway.

Lastly, let's talk about a skill v. a 5 piece set. You know, back in the day a set called Senchal Defender used to heal in addition to give stam and mag back when you heavy attacked? ZOS cut the healing on that set because giving all three was too powerful. A 5 piece was determined to be OP because it allowed you to heal and gain stam and mag back when you heavy attacked, and that was only significant when it was fully stacked.

Yet here we are defending a single skill that requires no real investment or build decisions to make v. a 5 piece set with lackluster bonuses otherwise? And that skill also does damage?

This is why balance is bad in the game. There's no consistency, and people defend whatever it is that allows them to gain an advantage. Eventually we'll see the words "fun" "identity" or whatever can be used to avoid looking at the issue objectively.

Yea it's hilarious seeing Essence Thief brought up because as someone who has been using that set for 2+ years in Cyrodiil and BGs, I can't count how many times the set procs in random locations I can't get to. Like, I could be kiting on the 2nd floor of a tower and the set decides to proc on the ground outside the tower instead, or when I'm kiting a zerg and the set procs behind me lol.

I'm so glad they buffed sustain to the point that I don't need that set anymore, but at the same time, they really gotta find a balance point. I'm actually perfectly ok with HoF giving that much sustain, but it has to be strictly a sustain skill, not a 4-in-1 one with so much power that you'd be in a massive disadvantage for not using it. Either remove the delayed burst damage component from HoF and keep the sustain, or remove the sustain from HoF and buff other sustain passives in DK's toolkit (Battle Roar for example). Another way to balance it is by having 1 morph deal damage but only restore 5% missing resources (no healing), while the other morph restores 15% resources + health but doesn't do damage.