Does heart of flame / soul of flame are too strong in PvP?

hoangdz · May 20

Heart of flame / soul of flame are too strong in PVP and should be nerfed

Luneca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Funny because I made like 3 threads about HoF's sustain during PTS cycle, but oh lord all the DK mains jumped on my arse. IT always happens exactly as predicted.

It's exactly what's wrong with the PTS tbh. People aren't honest about what works, what doesn't. Most only want their agenda to be fulfilled.

When I saw the DK changes, I was like how did this get past the forums? -- then I saw every streamer, every 1vXer, every "pro" just running DK (specifically ardent flame) and destroying those that don't know any better even easier than they ever could in previous patches. My friend even claimed that "DK is finally balanced. The game is balanced!" - they only play DK.

And I understood: it's because the majority wants changes that favor their play style/build and to nerf anything unfavorable to it. It's not exactly a crazy position to have, but the same people then try to claim the game is balanced and fair, then bring "skill arguments" or other nonsense when confronted about the buff/nerf they want.

Some of these DK changes, seriously... who thought that whip needed to be AoE, do more damage, be spammable (it wasn't before as power lash), heal more and be connected to even more damage buffs? And that's just the start about the DK rework.

How anyone is even defending this skill is bizarre considering some people are taking the skill line for the single skill. Isn't that exactly what kind of metric that ZOS used to and still should consider when determining if something is OP? Nearly everyone in PvP is running that skill line, and definitely that skill.

The DK changes were simply a massive DPS increase disguised as a QoL update, while other classes got changes that essentially made them even more subpar for the most part in recent patches (esp. necromancer). In the same patch when DKs got a massive damage increase and sustain, how could ZOS be concerned about the DPS or potential of any other class to the point nerfs needed to be handed out? It was and still is nonsensical that they take this kind of approach.

Relative power between classes is probably at it's worst right now. Partly because subclassing means that classes with bad skill lines have no purpose unless you can find specific builds that use them (necromancer, templar, arcanist), but the other part being the rework and the entire idea of it tilting balance away from classes that haven't been addressed.

There is little to no logical consistency with these changes anymore. I cannot understand how they think a bandaid on a massive wound (class masteries) will change much in reality.

Ah well, I realize the game probably won't ever be balanced in a way that favors me. That's why I'll just fire siege.

Basically people were fed up with subclassing and wanted something for a change. I totally understand that sentiment, but it was hilarious seeing the mental gymnastics people went through to convince themselves that the reworked DK was fine. It wasn't lol. Early PTS testers like myself and others already knew how busted DK was during the first week of PTS, and we made several attempts to bring that issue to light. More than half the forums dismissed our concern, stating that it's either "too early to tell", or worse, "reworked dk is still not as competitive as subclassing".

It did not take long for Cyrodiil to be full of DKs when the patch went live, and the same issues we raised during PTS became the exact ones people are complaining about. Ironically, U49 reduced diversity in ways subclassing never could lol. Oh well, at least U50 will introduce 2-3 more classes into the mix, so hopefully this will bring back some needed diversity.

Firstmep · May 20

Heart of flame / soul of flame are too strong in PVP and should be nerfed

Luneca wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Well sorcs are going to be stronger then dks next patch, especially if you build into max mag.
You can have 25k shields in pvp with massive damage, infinite sustain etc. With streak.

I don't think people realise just how insane coe and font of power are on a max mag build.

We don't know that for sure since ZOS hasn't finalized it yet, or have they?

If they really do it, think it's safe to say that they don't care in the slightest about balance. But if they do not, it's strange they feel the need to hold out and favor some classes more than others.

Well there were no pts changes this Monday, so unless they make some drastic changes for the live patch, which would be wierd since those would untested, we will be stuck with what's in the last notes.

I don't think it's favoritism but I bet most of their balancing comes from parsing on a dummy and coe doesn't really factor in there.

Problem is, they rarely catch on some of the most extreme ways people can build around new stuff when they introduce it.

s3dulo · May 20

Heart of flame / soul of flame are in normal state for PVP

Firstmep wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

No...no more nerfs. Your class, no matter who you are, is literally getting buffed next patch and then after that, it's just class buffs for every non-DK class. Stop calling for nerfs and just be patient. Your time is coming. In the mean time, sub class ardent flame into your build. These skills are totally accessible to you. This is how PVP works. A meta comes along and you should get a piece of it. The meta will change and you should change to. Just because your build stops work doesn't mean there is a problem that needs to be nerfed. YOU. NEED. TO. ADJUST.

Ardent flame has been on every single pvp build i made since dk rework because core of flame alone makes it more than worth it and they all work great. I'm not asking for a balance change because my builds dont work, i dont think they have been more broken. I'm calling for a balance change because its whats right for the game because at the very least every one being able to block forever is far from healthy for the game and so is infinite sustain.

You need to adjust your view on balance and stop thinking on whether or not something is good for you or your build but whether something is good or not for the game.

Also does every one in this game have a ''class''. Why are you all like this lol

But.....a balance change is literally happening in a few weeks. And then another.....and then another.....and then another etc. It's like you all just forgot ZOS is doing a game wide class refresh and DK is step 1 of 6. No matter what class went first, it was going to be like this. It'll be the same song and dance about nerfing Warden skills next. Then sorc. Heck, I bet calls for nerfs will start as soon as update 50 hits. Werewolves will be so crazy strong.

Ideally, ZOS should have done all the classes at once but this is how they chose to do it. I don't like homogeny in builds but at least we are on a path for exciting changes that will drastically shake things up. And a few months of DK meta is better than another year of two of the essence thief wearing, spec bow slinging, beetle blasting clones that were running around. There's a lot of DKs and subclassed DKs but within that I've seen a lot more build variety. Every other day I fight a player doing something unique within the class and I ask for build details, which almost all are happy to share and I admire the creativity.

A lot of players instead zerg down the skilled player, bag them and then hate whisper accusations of cheating. It's a shame because most of these guys are nice and one can learn a lot by just asking.

My point is, Core of Flame might seem too powerful now but that will change quickly as the class refresh rolls out. I'd be shocked if every class doesn't end up with it's own powerful abilities for sustain. If we were at the end of the class refresh and this is how things ended up, I'd probably agree with you regarding Core of Flame but this is just the beginning. Wait and see.

I don't want everyone to walk around with easy infinite sustain. We already had that meta with old heavy armor and Blackrose and it was miserable, everyone holding block forever and still doing massive damage.

This isn't about dks power level after their rework, this skill is simply too strong, period.

Holding block forever and still doing massive damage is definitely a potential problem. However, there are sets like Bulwark Ruination to counter it. And many players seem to not realize that stunning a blocking player causes them to drop block. Still, I was a little surprised to see a class passive on DK that makes block even stronger. I've tested it a little and it's very strong. I took my regular PVP build and just added that passive and fought some bosses in IC without releasing block at all. I'm in favor of bold changes and if it's a big problem, I'll be in favor of walking those back.

However, like I keep saying, we are in the beginning stages of a game-wide class refresh. They cranked up the damage for DK and I believe they are planning on doing that for every class. The goal is to make every class competitive as a pure class. Something tells me the sustain and block will be balanced out in the coming months by the other changes. I think other classes will have their own built-in means of sustain. And I would much rather get sustain from a skill than to have to use entire sets for it.

s3dulo · May 20

Heart of flame / soul of flame are in normal state for PVP

Firstmep wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Funny because I made like 3 threads about HoF's sustain during PTS cycle, but oh lord all the DK mains jumped on my arse. IT always happens exactly as predicted.

It's exactly what's wrong with the PTS tbh. People aren't honest about what works, what doesn't. Most only want their agenda to be fulfilled.

When I saw the DK changes, I was like how did this get past the forums? -- then I saw every streamer, every 1vXer, every "pro" just running DK (specifically ardent flame) and destroying those that don't know any better even easier than they ever could in previous patches. My friend even claimed that "DK is finally balanced. The game is balanced!" - they only play DK.

And I understood: it's because the majority wants changes that favor their play style/build and to nerf anything unfavorable to it. It's not exactly a crazy position to have, but the same people then try to claim the game is balanced and fair, then bring "skill arguments" or other nonsense when confronted about the buff/nerf they want.

Some of these DK changes, seriously... who thought that whip needed to be AoE, do more damage, be spammable (it wasn't before as power lash), heal more and be connected to even more damage buffs? And that's just the start about the DK rework.

How anyone is even defending this skill is bizarre considering some people are taking the skill line for the single skill. Isn't that exactly what kind of metric that ZOS used to and still should consider when determining if something is OP? Nearly everyone in PvP is running that skill line, and definitely that skill.

The DK changes were simply a massive DPS increase disguised as a QoL update, while other classes got changes that essentially made them even more subpar for the most part in recent patches (esp. necromancer). In the same patch when DKs got a massive damage increase and sustain, how could ZOS be concerned about the DPS or potential of any other class to the point nerfs needed to be handed out? It was and still is nonsensical that they take this kind of approach.

Relative power between classes is probably at it's worst right now. Partly because subclassing means that classes with bad skill lines have no purpose unless you can find specific builds that use them (necromancer, templar, arcanist), but the other part being the rework and the entire idea of it tilting balance away from classes that haven't been addressed.

There is little to no logical consistency with these changes anymore. I cannot understand how they think a bandaid on a massive wound (class masteries) will change much in reality.

Ah well, I realize the game probably won't ever be balanced in a way that favors me. That's why I'll just fire siege.

Well sorcs are going to be stronger then dks next patch, especially if you build into max mag.
You can have 25k shields in pvp with massive damage, infinite sustain etc. With streak.

I don't think people realise just how insane coe and font of power are on a max mag build.

I don't think people realize how strong werewolves are going to be either.

s3dulo · May 20

Heart of flame / soul of flame are in normal state for PVP

Luneca wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Well sorcs are going to be stronger then dks next patch, especially if you build into max mag.
You can have 25k shields in pvp with massive damage, infinite sustain etc. With streak.

I don't think people realise just how insane coe and font of power are on a max mag build.

We don't know that for sure since ZOS hasn't finalized it yet, or have they?

If they really do it, think it's safe to say that they don't care in the slightest about balance. But if they do not, it's strange they feel the need to hold out and favor some classes more than others.

People keep saying "balance" but what does that look like to you? If sorc is very strong and DK is very strong and the goal is to make every class very strong in their own way, is that not balance? I can see how it feels unbalanced at the moment but if you're renovating a house, some rooms will look worse than others until the whole thing is done.

Firstmep · May 20

Heart of flame / soul of flame are too strong in PVP and should be nerfed

s3dulo wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Funny because I made like 3 threads about HoF's sustain during PTS cycle, but oh lord all the DK mains jumped on my arse. IT always happens exactly as predicted.

It's exactly what's wrong with the PTS tbh. People aren't honest about what works, what doesn't. Most only want their agenda to be fulfilled.

When I saw the DK changes, I was like how did this get past the forums? -- then I saw every streamer, every 1vXer, every "pro" just running DK (specifically ardent flame) and destroying those that don't know any better even easier than they ever could in previous patches. My friend even claimed that "DK is finally balanced. The game is balanced!" - they only play DK.

And I understood: it's because the majority wants changes that favor their play style/build and to nerf anything unfavorable to it. It's not exactly a crazy position to have, but the same people then try to claim the game is balanced and fair, then bring "skill arguments" or other nonsense when confronted about the buff/nerf they want.

Some of these DK changes, seriously... who thought that whip needed to be AoE, do more damage, be spammable (it wasn't before as power lash), heal more and be connected to even more damage buffs? And that's just the start about the DK rework.

How anyone is even defending this skill is bizarre considering some people are taking the skill line for the single skill. Isn't that exactly what kind of metric that ZOS used to and still should consider when determining if something is OP? Nearly everyone in PvP is running that skill line, and definitely that skill.

The DK changes were simply a massive DPS increase disguised as a QoL update, while other classes got changes that essentially made them even more subpar for the most part in recent patches (esp. necromancer). In the same patch when DKs got a massive damage increase and sustain, how could ZOS be concerned about the DPS or potential of any other class to the point nerfs needed to be handed out? It was and still is nonsensical that they take this kind of approach.

Relative power between classes is probably at it's worst right now. Partly because subclassing means that classes with bad skill lines have no purpose unless you can find specific builds that use them (necromancer, templar, arcanist), but the other part being the rework and the entire idea of it tilting balance away from classes that haven't been addressed.

There is little to no logical consistency with these changes anymore. I cannot understand how they think a bandaid on a massive wound (class masteries) will change much in reality.

Ah well, I realize the game probably won't ever be balanced in a way that favors me. That's why I'll just fire siege.

Well sorcs are going to be stronger then dks next patch, especially if you build into max mag.
You can have 25k shields in pvp with massive damage, infinite sustain etc. With streak.

I don't think people realise just how insane coe and font of power are on a max mag build.

I don't think people realize how strong werewolves are going to be either.

Oh absolutely.