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• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – May 27, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 4:00PM EDT (20:00 UTC)
Class Masteries and their Role inside of a Raid Composition (PvE)
Olanero
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Hey, after testing a lot of those passives I've realized that we might get a problem with the distribution of those passives inside of a raid group.
First of all, I want to say, that I love the idea of those passives- and they are certainly revitalizing pure classes.
When it comes to raiding however, people usually play 8 dps, 2 heal, 2 tanks. 4 of those guys want to play support. 8 guys do not want to play support, they want numbers.
Getting all those pure class masteries that are beneficial to a raid group (outside of just pure dmg) on those 4 support roles, without hitting the groups performance is probably impossible.
However, every single passive that does not increase the damage of a dd, will make them worse than a subclass in a raid composition (and more importantly, worse than their teammates - not in terms of value to the team, but in terms of perceived value by themselves). This is emphasized, because those passives have to be strong enough to make a pure class compete with a subclass. By cutting one of those dps passives, the gap becomes larger.
I want to give a few examples.
Nightblade is probably already bottom end in PvE and the one group utility is generating ultimate (and ressources) via casting a siphoning ability every 4th second. They would not only lose one of those passives doing that, but they would also be stuck in a very weird rotation- casting a siphoning ability every 4th cast is not really beneficial to the player. This will probably cause nightblades to become extinct in PvE.
Arcanist has the option to create a Major Force Buff for the group and also the option to apply Minor Cowardice, when getting hit as well as Major Vitality to the group.
So one option is tailored towards a tank and the other one towards a healer. Unfortunately healers don't have a second passive that is useful, while tanks struggle to heal that much, because they are mainly tailored around absorbing dmg. As a side note, healers usually also don't consume crux at all.
In the end maybe one dps is going to get the job of fullfilling the healing condition with Reaving Blows and Vigor, cutting into their dps by losing the optimal class mastery passive, one active blue cp slot and a barslot.
The Necromancer group utility of extending Major Vulnerability is also restricting the damage dealer from an important passive, but more importantly it is not important for a healer/tank with lots of ultimate generation (especially with the existence of Nazaray as Monster Set). It is just not required to extend the duration.
Sorcerer gets 6% spell dmg, but the class is already struggling in AoE dmg. Losing another passive that is way stronger (Static Reveberation or up to 20% spell dmg) for 6% feels bad. On a healer it is difficult to get behind the value of playing sorcerer (outside of niche use cases for streak/ball lightning). Especially the ties to shields on sorcerer don't relate to the available heal skills. Rejuvenating Ward for example, is a self shield that buffs the group with a minor buff. But do we want to cast self-shields that often (instead of helping the group?)
Warden is also an interesting case. Major Heroism from healing is incredible- but it can be outsourced to a dmg dealer with just Lotus Blossom backbar. This would, once again, force a damage dealer to give up a damage passive for support. Major Brittle is also interesting, the question is just, whether a tank or a healer can pure class Warden and maintain chill every 2 seconds. If that is not the case, it either has to go to a damage dealer or be dropped entirely. This is also due to the fact that it is directly competing with Major Force from Arcanist, which is usually stronger, because it is a buff and not a debuff, leading to better uptimes.
Templar would be an example of how it is done right, the passive that supports the group also gives a decent damage buff on top to the templar (300 wpn/spell dmg to the group- 600 to the templar). I'm just not sure how viable templar is currently, but the seemless integration of the buff into a normal setup is great.
TLDR:
I love pure classing passives as an idea. I just hope, that I don't have to have one of those discussions with my fellow raiders:
Raidmember: Can I play pure class sorc?
Raidlead: Sure, just make sure to pick up that 6% spell dmg buff instead of the 20-30% spelldmg for yourself.
Raidmember: Oh f... nvm
I would love support sets and passives, that are supposed to be played on dds, to be no added weight to the player playing them.
Negative Examples of Sets/Skills already in use (Martial Knowledge, Banner)
Positive Example (Alkosh - provided a dmg proc on top of the debuff)
First of all, I want to say, that I love the idea of those passives- and they are certainly revitalizing pure classes.
When it comes to raiding however, people usually play 8 dps, 2 heal, 2 tanks. 4 of those guys want to play support. 8 guys do not want to play support, they want numbers.
Getting all those pure class masteries that are beneficial to a raid group (outside of just pure dmg) on those 4 support roles, without hitting the groups performance is probably impossible.
However, every single passive that does not increase the damage of a dd, will make them worse than a subclass in a raid composition (and more importantly, worse than their teammates - not in terms of value to the team, but in terms of perceived value by themselves). This is emphasized, because those passives have to be strong enough to make a pure class compete with a subclass. By cutting one of those dps passives, the gap becomes larger.
I want to give a few examples.
Nightblade is probably already bottom end in PvE and the one group utility is generating ultimate (and ressources) via casting a siphoning ability every 4th second. They would not only lose one of those passives doing that, but they would also be stuck in a very weird rotation- casting a siphoning ability every 4th cast is not really beneficial to the player. This will probably cause nightblades to become extinct in PvE.
Arcanist has the option to create a Major Force Buff for the group and also the option to apply Minor Cowardice, when getting hit as well as Major Vitality to the group.
So one option is tailored towards a tank and the other one towards a healer. Unfortunately healers don't have a second passive that is useful, while tanks struggle to heal that much, because they are mainly tailored around absorbing dmg. As a side note, healers usually also don't consume crux at all.
In the end maybe one dps is going to get the job of fullfilling the healing condition with Reaving Blows and Vigor, cutting into their dps by losing the optimal class mastery passive, one active blue cp slot and a barslot.
The Necromancer group utility of extending Major Vulnerability is also restricting the damage dealer from an important passive, but more importantly it is not important for a healer/tank with lots of ultimate generation (especially with the existence of Nazaray as Monster Set). It is just not required to extend the duration.
Sorcerer gets 6% spell dmg, but the class is already struggling in AoE dmg. Losing another passive that is way stronger (Static Reveberation or up to 20% spell dmg) for 6% feels bad. On a healer it is difficult to get behind the value of playing sorcerer (outside of niche use cases for streak/ball lightning). Especially the ties to shields on sorcerer don't relate to the available heal skills. Rejuvenating Ward for example, is a self shield that buffs the group with a minor buff. But do we want to cast self-shields that often (instead of helping the group?)
Warden is also an interesting case. Major Heroism from healing is incredible- but it can be outsourced to a dmg dealer with just Lotus Blossom backbar. This would, once again, force a damage dealer to give up a damage passive for support. Major Brittle is also interesting, the question is just, whether a tank or a healer can pure class Warden and maintain chill every 2 seconds. If that is not the case, it either has to go to a damage dealer or be dropped entirely. This is also due to the fact that it is directly competing with Major Force from Arcanist, which is usually stronger, because it is a buff and not a debuff, leading to better uptimes.
Templar would be an example of how it is done right, the passive that supports the group also gives a decent damage buff on top to the templar (300 wpn/spell dmg to the group- 600 to the templar). I'm just not sure how viable templar is currently, but the seemless integration of the buff into a normal setup is great.
TLDR:
I love pure classing passives as an idea. I just hope, that I don't have to have one of those discussions with my fellow raiders:
Raidmember: Can I play pure class sorc?
Raidlead: Sure, just make sure to pick up that 6% spell dmg buff instead of the 20-30% spelldmg for yourself.
Raidmember: Oh f... nvm
I would love support sets and passives, that are supposed to be played on dds, to be no added weight to the player playing them.
Negative Examples of Sets/Skills already in use (Martial Knowledge, Banner)
Positive Example (Alkosh - provided a dmg proc on top of the debuff)
8
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CatalinaWineMixer2✭✭✭✭These passives are inadequate. For all Pure Classes. The Class sets need to only apply to Pure Class. The drawdrawbacks from Shattered Path and other things seem only focused on my Main character that im really getting tired of not being able to play for a year! - Signed a Warden main1
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Luneca✭✭✭See, the whole problem with class masteries is that it's essentially a bandaid for a bleeding wound that needs a surgical procedure.
Think about why people are subclassing in the first place: because their classes lack flexibility or they feel something is lacking.
Before subclassing, on my templar I barely slotted any class skills. I had a hard time actually filling skill slots up because most of the skills were and still are useless. The general purpose skills in the game from destruction staff are bad, the general purpose skill lines : fighters guild, undaunted, psijic, etc. are also bad.
Same thing on necromancer. Both those classes don't have slottable skills that matter and the skills are really bad, so there's little purpose to actually running the skills.
Then subclassing and scribing comes along and I can slot skills that I never would have been able to slot before, compress skill slots and fit them in, and essentially have a superior build because I can: run more buffs, run more sustain, run more damage, and have the flexibility to adjust my skill bar and buffs.
Here's the problem: going back to a pure class I am losing all four of those things, and only gaining a niche buff. A buff that might or might not matter in reality, but forces me to give up all four of those things above. It also removes flexibility and forces me to find skills to fit in the bar again, because the classes' regular skill are bad.
What that actually translates to in reality is that if I do run a pure build, lose all the advantages of subclassing, then naturally with less advantages in a build (and more build decisions to make), my damage, sustain, defense, etc. all have to take a downward trend. In other words, my DPS will go down in a game where DPS is essentially everything.
^ All of this was obvious from the start before they even announced any of the class masteries. I immediately knew it would be a disappointment one way or another because it wouldn't be adequate. I cannot understand how they did not see this.
Okay, we looked at it from the smaller perspective. The individual. The problem is that the way this game's system and balance work is that nerfs at the smaller scale always trickle up. And what you are mentioning in that post is the trickle up...
Now, I don't know exactly what goes on behind the scenes. But let me just be clear about something. Even if class masteries were grossly OP, I'd still support that over what we have on live and now. It'd actually have to be grossly OP because subclassing offers too much when combined with scribing and certain mythics.
But it seems like the development team is concerned about balance or some other fear that makes no sense when they just released the DK rework, and none of it is getting nerfed to any substatial effect. What balance trend that might be made by pure classing is concerning? I wish they would offer some clarity on that.
Because the way I see it, every class EXCEPT DK (and arcanist in PvE) is currently bound by terrible skill lines that are inadequate and cannot compete with subclassing even with the current changes.1