Challenge Difficulty, can you make delves instanced atleast?

olsborg · May 14

Overland delves are currently easypeasy, there is no incentive to go into them, but with challenge difficulty I will have a reason to do those on vestige or master, but it would completely ruin my experience if someone was in there (wich is often the case) that was on adventure difficulty and he/she would just mow through every monster in there. I read that you couldnt instance it for overworld, but how about delves(and public dungeons)in the zones?

Spearblade · May 14

They've answered that too- the answer is no.

Wuuffyy · May 14

Spearblade wrote: »

They've answered that too- the answer is no.

and now, anything you ask after this will be ‘no’ as well.

Remember when crossplay was a no… now it’s a yes. Hmmmmm

SilverBride · May 14

No, because that would take away help for players that may need it in those places. Increasing difficulty is a choice and those that do not choose difficult options should not have their experience harmed to accommodate other's choices.

AcadianPaladin · May 14

I do consider that you cannot select solo or public instance when entering a delve to be the biggest downside of delves.

Delves are perfect for solo running. I love skulking quietly and methodically through a dungeon, planning my tactics and taking my time looting. When others are running through, it completely spoils the feel and mood. Public dungeons are okay for the chaos of lots of players running around but delves are not. Right now, the only real options I have for that spooky/skulking dungeon crawl experience is soloing a normal group dungeon or the solo delves in Craglorn. The option for those of us who would like it is all I'm asking for.

PeacefulAnarchy · May 14

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Spearblade wrote: »

They've answered that too- the answer is no.

and now, anything you ask after this will be ‘no’ as well.

Remember when crossplay as a no… now it’s a yes. Hmmmmm

Sure, it may happen but it's not happening this patch or next. Crossplay didn't go from a no to a yes, it went from no, to unlikely, to we wish it could happen, to we're exploring it, to we're doing it but no timeline over the course of multiple years.

ZOS absolutely can have their mind changed after they say no, but not in a short time frame. Maybe after they see how it plays out on live and they consider other future alterations to the system they might reconsider that restriction, maybe. Or maybe not.

Wuuffyy · May 14

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Crossplay didn't go from a no to a yes, it went from no, to unlikely, to we wish it could happen, to we're exploring it, to we're doing it but no timeline over the course of multiple years

Because the interest never waned and players didn't 'stop' requesting this. Hence why this is a logical request on OPs end, despite 'but their answer is no'.

AcadianPaladin · May 15

If I WAS struggling solo in a delve, I think I'd like the place to myself so I could go at my own pace and if I had trouble, had all the time I needed to figure things out. I don't see how other players racing through either killing all the mobs or pulling trains of them behind them would help. And I certainly don't see how several players camping the delve boss would help me figure out how to defeat the boss. What could I learn from watching a boss get burned down in 2 seconds?

SilverBride · May 15

Mashille wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No, because that would take away help for players that may need it in those places. Increasing difficulty is a choice and those that do not choose difficult options should not have their experience harmed to accommodate other's choices.

[snip]

There are many reasons a player may need help with content others find easy. They may be new to the game and not geared well. They may not have a good understanding of their skills yet. They may have physical limitations that make it more difficult for them to push the buttons and maneuver around the area. And these players have every bit as much right to play this game as anyone else.
[edited to remove quote]

Vaqual · May 15

SilverBride wrote: »

No, because that would take away help for players that may need it in those places. Increasing difficulty is a choice and those that do not choose difficult options should not have their experience harmed to accommodate other's choices.

Sorry, but your logic is broken.
Players wanting to experience harder delves will have to basically live with the drawback of having their run being potentially ruined by a steam-rolling easy mode player. And you say that has to be this way, so that those players can be of assistance to the easy mode players? The player who chooses to be nerfed also is considered the help? Against their own interests? That is the most selfish view I have seen regarding this topic.

There should be more than enough players on the easiest setting to help each other, if that is an issue that truly exists. It will also be possible to swap the difficulty to help someone anyway - if that would involve re-zoning it still wouldn't be a big deal. Why would you even need the help of the deliberately debilitated players?

Honestly, reading stuff like this I'd rather die in a delve than to help a player with this attitude.

While I am at it, I might as will finish with an anecdote. Because it really sometimes drives me a bit crazy, that plain bad players feel entitled to some kind of protected species status. I was soloing a Faceted enemy on the Night Market. There was not specific reason for it, just felt like attacking it. I was doing just fine, until another player came along. Lightning-heavy, kiting backwards. Just what you'd imagine. I didn't have a taunt, so occasionally the boss swapped aggro to the HA guy. And he kited backwards. Into another trash group. Cleaned the trash, moved on. Into the next trash group. Cleaned the trash, moved on. And then he back-paddled so far that the boss actually reset. I am not going to say my opinion about that. But do you genuinely think someone dredging through a Vestige Delve needs that kind of "Support" near the end of the instance?

Players who are good at the game are people, too.

SilverBride · May 15

Vaqual wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No, because that would take away help for players that may need it in those places. Increasing difficulty is a choice and those that do not choose difficult options should not have their experience harmed to accommodate other's choices.

Sorry, but your logic is broken.
Players wanting to experience harder delves will have to basically live with the drawback of having their run being potentially ruined by a steam-rolling easy mode player. And you say that has to be this way, so that those players can be of assistance to the easy mode players? The player who chooses to be nerfed also is considered the help? Against their own interests? That is the most selfish view I have seen regarding this topic.

Delves have been public since this game started. And there have always been a mixture of players, from new and unskilled to meta. Why should that now change so the player choosing more difficulty can have a private instance to themselves and not be bothered by other players?

Ever since difficulty has been announced there have been complaints that other players will get in the way and ruin their experience. I will answer that with something I have been told many times through the years... This is an MMO.

Vaqual · May 15

SilverBride wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No, because that would take away help for players that may need it in those places. Increasing difficulty is a choice and those that do not choose difficult options should not have their experience harmed to accommodate other's choices.

Sorry, but your logic is broken.
Players wanting to experience harder delves will have to basically live with the drawback of having their run being potentially ruined by a steam-rolling easy mode player. And you say that has to be this way, so that those players can be of assistance to the easy mode players? The player who chooses to be nerfed also is considered the help? Against their own interests? That is the most selfish view I have seen regarding this topic.

Delves have been public since this game started. And there have always been a mixture of players, from new and unskilled to meta. Why should that now change so the player choosing more difficulty can have a private instance to themselves and not be bothered by other players?

Ever since difficulty has been announced there have been complaints that other players will get in the way and ruin their experience. I will answer that with something I have been told many times through the years... This is an MMO.

Because it makes sense.

SilverBride · May 15

Vaqual wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No, because that would take away help for players that may need it in those places. Increasing difficulty is a choice and those that do not choose difficult options should not have their experience harmed to accommodate other's choices.

Sorry, but your logic is broken.
Players wanting to experience harder delves will have to basically live with the drawback of having their run being potentially ruined by a steam-rolling easy mode player. And you say that has to be this way, so that those players can be of assistance to the easy mode players? The player who chooses to be nerfed also is considered the help? Against their own interests? That is the most selfish view I have seen regarding this topic.

Delves have been public since this game started. And there have always been a mixture of players, from new and unskilled to meta. Why should that now change so the player choosing more difficulty can have a private instance to themselves and not be bothered by other players?

Ever since difficulty has been announced there have been complaints that other players will get in the way and ruin their experience. I will answer that with something I have been told many times through the years... This is an MMO.

Because it makes sense.

Keeping delves public does make sense.

colossalvoids · May 15

SilverBride wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No, because that would take away help for players that may need it in those places. Increasing difficulty is a choice and those that do not choose difficult options should not have their experience harmed to accommodate other's choices.

Sorry, but your logic is broken.
Players wanting to experience harder delves will have to basically live with the drawback of having their run being potentially ruined by a steam-rolling easy mode player. And you say that has to be this way, so that those players can be of assistance to the easy mode players? The player who chooses to be nerfed also is considered the help? Against their own interests? That is the most selfish view I have seen regarding this topic.

Delves have been public since this game started. And there have always been a mixture of players, from new and unskilled to meta. Why should that now change so the player choosing more difficulty can have a private instance to themselves and not be bothered by other players?

Ever since difficulty has been announced there have been complaints that other players will get in the way and ruin their experience. I will answer that with something I have been told many times through the years... This is an MMO.

Because it makes sense.

Keeping delves public does make sense.

Keeping things public for the same difficulty bracket does, but not the current system. I'm glad that people who disliked overland difficulty proposals are happy with the implementation but it's inherently flawed for a lot of folks who did wanted it initially.

SilverBride · May 15

colossalvoids wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Keeping delves public does make sense.

Keeping things public for the same difficulty bracket does, but not the current system. I'm glad that people who disliked overland difficulty proposals are happy with the implementation but it's inherently flawed for a lot of folks who did wanted it initially.

But the difficulty bracket is on the player, not the delve or anywhere else in game. The enemies aren't affected at all. Just the player that chooses their difficulty.

When I heard how they were going to implement difficulty this way I fully expected this to come up. There have been numerous posts by players using difficulty about how other players are now ruining their experience.

Difficulty does not come with a guarantee that other players won't be fighting the same enemies they are, or come up and one hit them, or any of the things that can and do happen now with us all sharing the same world.

They did it this way so as not to separate the players. Having private delves would do that.

I honestly don't think having difficulty options will succeed in the long run because of things like this.

Taarente · May 15

You may be asking for something that the software design doesn’t allow for or would be problematic to implement.

SeaGtGruff · May 16

I don't think it's as simple as just saying "yes" or "no" and then doing it or not. Consider the only (AFAIK) instanced delves in the game, which are in Craglorn. They're "group delves," although-- as with "group dungeons"-- a player can go in solo and try to clear them solo. What is basically being asked for here is that every delve in the game be converted into a "group delve." I'm not sure how much work that would take, but the consequences would presumably be pretty major. Any player who went into a delve solo would cause a solo instance to be created, and if multiple players wanted to go in and play together they'd need to group up first. It seems like that could result in a large number of instances of delves, which seems like it would take away server resources from other things. It doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

Vaqual · May 16

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't think it's as simple as just saying "yes" or "no" and then doing it or not. Consider the only (AFAIK) instanced delves in the game, which are in Craglorn. They're "group delves," although-- as with "group dungeons"-- a player can go in solo and try to clear them solo. What is basically being asked for here is that every delve in the game be converted into a "group delve." I'm not sure how much work that would take, but the consequences would presumably be pretty major. Any player who went into a delve solo would cause a solo instance to be created, and if multiple players wanted to go in and play together they'd need to group up first. It seems like that could result in a large number of instances of delves, which seems like it would take away server resources from other things. It doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

There can already be multiple instances for delves depending on the amount of players. The only thing they'd need to do is flag them by difficulty, like dungeon vs veteran mode dungeon. This would in the worst scenario add +3 instances per delve.

Gabriel_H · May 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Spearblade wrote: »

They've answered that too- the answer is no.

and now, anything you ask after this will be ‘no’ as well.

Remember when crossplay was a no… now it’s a yes. Hmmmmm

It's a no on specific difficulty because the intent is to have an MMO without restricting who you can play/group with.

It was a no on cross-play purely because of the technical/logistical limitations of having to consolidate two sets of game code, and two sets of server code.

Wuuffyy · May 16

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Spearblade wrote: »

They've answered that too- the answer is no.

and now, anything you ask after this will be ‘no’ as well.

Remember when crossplay was a no… now it’s a yes. Hmmmmm

It's a no on specific difficulty because the intent is to have an MMO without restricting who you can play/group with.

It was a no on cross-play purely because of the technical/logistical limitations of having to consolidate two sets of game code, and two sets of server code.

Response already given here:

Wuuffyy wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Crossplay didn't go from a no to a yes, it went from no, to unlikely, to we wish it could happen, to we're exploring it, to we're doing it but no timeline over the course of multiple years

Because the interest never waned and players didn't 'stop' requesting this. Hence why this is a logical request on OPs end, despite 'but their answer is no'.

It’s a not a no simply because some disagree. There aren’t 5000 stops to this system and not every person will partake in the difficulty slider after all.

Those that don’t partake can be instanced normally, those that do partake could be instanced together with the already-existing splits.

I for one could appreciate those instanced delve bosses and fights that would not be interrupted by passersby on the base/default setting just trying to play.

Gabriel_H · May 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Spearblade wrote: »

They've answered that too- the answer is no.

and now, anything you ask after this will be ‘no’ as well.

Remember when crossplay was a no… now it’s a yes. Hmmmmm

It's a no on specific difficulty because the intent is to have an MMO without restricting who you can play/group with.

It was a no on cross-play purely because of the technical/logistical limitations of having to consolidate two sets of game code, and two sets of server code.

Response already given here:

Wuuffyy wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Crossplay didn't go from a no to a yes, it went from no, to unlikely, to we wish it could happen, to we're exploring it, to we're doing it but no timeline over the course of multiple years

Because the interest never waned and players didn't 'stop' requesting this. Hence why this is a logical request on OPs end, despite 'but their answer is no'.

It’s a not a no simply because some disagree. There aren’t 5000 stops to this system and not every person will partake in the difficulty slider after all.

Those that don’t partake can be instanced normally, those that do partake could be instanced together with the already-existing splits.

I for one could appreciate those instanced delve bosses and fights that would not be interrupted by passersby on the base/default setting just trying to play.

That's nice. Doesn't address the points I made, but thanks for the reply I guess.

spartaxoxo · May 16

I do think is a fair compromise. I'm opposed to the general overland being separated because the players would have trouble finding assistance. And new players never seeing others around gives the impression it's a dead game and without new players, a game dies. There does need to be some mixed content that doesn't require people to already know people.

But the delves and public dungeons don't need to be necessarily. If someone was having trouble they could just give a shout in zone chat for help.

I don't think it will be a big deal if they don't do it because reasonably we should expect a public dungeon to be public. I also certainly wouldn't want them to do it if it caused bad performance issues. But, if it's possible to do, I don't think it would be a bad idea.

Dagoth_Rac · 2:47AM

Vaqual wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

I don't think it's as simple as just saying "yes" or "no" and then doing it or not. Consider the only (AFAIK) instanced delves in the game, which are in Craglorn. They're "group delves," although-- as with "group dungeons"-- a player can go in solo and try to clear them solo. What is basically being asked for here is that every delve in the game be converted into a "group delve." I'm not sure how much work that would take, but the consequences would presumably be pretty major. Any player who went into a delve solo would cause a solo instance to be created, and if multiple players wanted to go in and play together they'd need to group up first. It seems like that could result in a large number of instances of delves, which seems like it would take away server resources from other things. It doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

There can already be multiple instances for delves depending on the amount of players. The only thing they'd need to do is flag them by difficulty, like dungeon vs veteran mode dungeon. This would in the worst scenario add +3 instances per delve.

ZOS_Finn gave a very lengthy response in one of the Challenge Difficulty threads about this. Delves were never designed to be instanced and the impact instanced delves would have on overall server performance would be significant. It is not something they are interested in redesigning at this time:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8459967/#Comment_8459967

I bring this up to highlight the technical aspects of how the game operates from a monster and zone perspective to further illustrate that spinning up new zones based on difficulty without weight concerns and attribution would be extremely detrimental to the entire game. Needing to essentially double all of the available zones in the game without regard to population and weight would mean the entire server would have some pretty major issues regardless of where you would be playing. Even in Delves and Public Dungeons, locations that were not created with these concerns in mind, would potentially be breaking for the server.

Luneca · 10:56AM

I can't wait for people to be challenging themselves and then I come along with the game set on easy, tap them on the shoulder and go: hold on, got this . And then just beam, beam, beam...

They'll thank me for sure, right?

SilverIce58 · 3:20PM

I think there should be an option to run the delve as public or solo. It'd really be like how when you go to certain dungeons in the world you can choose Banished Cells 1 or 2, or City of Ash 1 or 2, so why not give the delves the option for solo or public? It wouldn't take anything away from players who choose to go in publicly. If you go in solo, and feel that you cannot complete the delve, then leave and swap to public. And the achievement for completing the delve should be given for first time completion no matter if solo or public. There's no reward for said achievements, so it doesn't really matter whether you complete them solo or public.

Just my 2 cents.

SilverBride · 3:54PM

Dungeons have always been instanced and delves have always been public, so the two are not comparable. And they already explained why they can't do it.

Players asked for more difficult overland, not for a private world. They are getting difficulty options so they got what they asked for.