Tankiness and survieability in need of a big buff

Militan1404 · May 16

Now that damage has been buffed and buffed patch after patch while survieability has been nothing but nerfed its time to either buff survieability or reduce dmg in some way or form. For about a year ago 120k dps was realy good now players can do 200k+ in dps witch is insaine. Major force has been made to easy to maintain but sets that gives crit resistance has been nerfed, subclass has insane dmg and DK can one shot the tankiest player like they made out of butter. Its like each update is getting worse and worse and feels more and more like playing CS than ESO, something has to be done about this power creep that has been going on. Dont know how to fix it but there is lots of things that could be done, increase resistance cap, make it easyer and more ways to get crit resistance, un-nerf health recovery, damage taken decreased by 75% in battle spirit. Its kind of hard to figure way to fix it without nerfing the pure classes that are allready weak and is low on dmg like necro and templar, but something needs to be done.

acanca · May 16

What we need is an accessible melee skill in assault line where if it lands when some one is blocking, it stops them from blocking for 5 seconds. With an obvious tell before it hits so that the person can stop blocking and not get affected to allow for counterplay.

Wait no you want more tankiness nvm. And wdym raise armor cap, every one is already running like 15k pen min, who do you see running around with more than 45k resists without going into troll tank category. What you gonna do if they raise the resist cap run around with 60k? How is that gonna help.

I'm honestly enjoying the lowered time to kill as sometimes frustrating as that is. I still think defense needs some nerfs, its exceedingly easy to stonewall most stuff except pressure builds with hearth of flames and perma blocking

Luneca · May 16

Hard disagree. Tanks are already powerful enough. And yes, I've used one in PvP and PvE. A subclassed tank on live is extremely powerful and that's before we even start talking about mythics and "group" support for the tank.

If major force makes a difference in how well you can tank in PvP spaces, then your tank isn't really a tank. And do note, holding block doesn't make you a tank if you melt instantly after it drops for a second.

Dracane · May 16

I felt that tankiness is generally too strong and easy.

Militan1404 · May 16

Dracane wrote: »

I felt that tankiness is generally too strong and easy.

I would agree normally but now that the damage is so high as it you could build as tanky as you want but still just a wip or spec bow combo away from dying. I am not talking about tanks that run around blocking and cant do any dmg at all becouse you can just ignore them so who cares? I am talking about average players, right now you can just send them from 100 to 0 health in second, and it happens even when i am not intending to go for the kill. And thats how most of my deaths also goes, just fight and then suddenly goes from 100 to 0 boom your dead with with my buffs and everything on.

Luneca · May 16

Militan1404 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I felt that tankiness is generally too strong and easy.

I would agree normally but now that the damage is so high as it you could build as tanky as you want but still just a wip or spec bow combo away from dying. I am not talking about tanks that run around blocking and cant do any dmg at all becouse you can just ignore them so who cares? I am talking about average players, right now you can just send them from 100 to 0 health in second, and it happens even when i am not intending to go for the kill. And thats how most of my deaths also goes, just fight and then suddenly goes from 100 to 0 boom your dead with with my buffs and everything on.

Hasn't been my experience in the slightest when running a tank build. And I'm not running one where I hold block.

I really don't understand the argument here. Because someone dies, tanks need a buff?

I disagree.

Here's the thing: rolling exists and negates a LOT of damage + positions you away from damage. It can be stacked with other active defense, HoTs, and even blocking if someone wanted to. It also has no limit to how much damage it reduces when it comes to single target damage in the interval of time that it covers.

What can be more powerful than that in any situation in PvP that you can think of?

All the AoE damage is subject to major evasion, minor evasion, a delay (and more delay that isn't documented for the AoE target search that they do), and forced animations. This means there is a natural limit that can be done by AoE damage in an interval of time, so we then need to focus on single target and DoT damage.

But most DoT damage is

1. Cleansable
2. Attached to single target skills that are ...wait for it...dodgeable

I cannot understand why anyone would need to ask for a buff to tanks when any tank that uses active defense should not be dying so easily in the first place. If you are dying easily in heavy , here's a secret: light and medium are better for tanking in PvP as long as you can handle the HP penalty and you know how to utilize the roll button.

If you built a tank and you cannot heal back up, it's a bad build. If you built a tank and you cannot cleanse OR outheal the damage, bad build. If you built a tank and you can never roll, bad build. And it goes on...

Now, if you're talking about the context of 1vX -- definite no. The game is not balanced around 1vX so that's a moot discussion point.Why should one player be able to easily negate the damage of many without doing much of anything?

You should be forced to roll; you should be forced to use block properly instead of just holding it. You should be forced to manage resources and heal properly and cleanse. That should come with the territory of fighting more than one enemy. But it doesn't because the game favors defense to the point that it's now an issue when damage gets increased due to a mythic and other balance changes?

Again, no.

Militan1404 · May 16

Luneca wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I felt that tankiness is generally too strong and easy.

I would agree normally but now that the damage is so high as it you could build as tanky as you want but still just a wip or spec bow combo away from dying. I am not talking about tanks that run around blocking and cant do any dmg at all becouse you can just ignore them so who cares? I am talking about average players, right now you can just send them from 100 to 0 health in second, and it happens even when i am not intending to go for the kill. And thats how most of my deaths also goes, just fight and then suddenly goes from 100 to 0 boom your dead with with my buffs and everything on.

Hasn't been my experience in the slightest when running a tank build. And I'm not running one where I hold block.

I really don't understand the argument here. Because someone dies, tanks need a buff?

I disagree.

Here's the thing: rolling exists and negates a LOT of damage + positions you away from damage. It can be stacked with other active defense, HoTs, and even blocking if someone wanted to. It also has no limit to how much damage it reduces when it comes to single target damage in the interval of time that it covers.

What can be more powerful than that in any situation in PvP that you can think of?

All the AoE damage is subject to major evasion, minor evasion, a delay (and more delay that isn't documented for the AoE target search that they do), and forced animations. This means there is a natural limit that can be done by AoE damage in an interval of time, so we then need to focus on single target and DoT damage.

But most DoT damage is

1. Cleansable
2. Attached to single target skills that are ...wait for it...dodgeable

I cannot understand why anyone would need to ask for a buff to tanks when any tank that uses active defense should not be dying so easily in the first place. If you are dying easily in heavy , here's a secret: light and medium are better for tanking in PvP as long as you can handle the HP penalty and you know how to utilize the roll button.

If you built a tank and you cannot heal back up, it's a bad build. If you built a tank and you cannot cleanse OR outheal the damage, bad build. If you built a tank and you can never roll, bad build. And it goes on...

Now, if you're talking about the context of 1vX -- definite no. The game is not balanced around 1vX so that's a moot discussion point.Why should one player be able to easily negate the damage of many without doing much of anything?

You should be forced to roll; you should be forced to use block properly instead of just holding it. You should be forced to manage resources and heal properly and cleanse. That should come with the territory of fighting more than one enemy. But it doesn't because the game favors defense to the point that it's now an issue when damage gets increased due to a mythic and other balance changes?

Again, no.

I dont say tanks needs a buff and wasnt my intention if it came out like that, i was talking about buffing tankiness/suvivability not tanks. I think damage is way to high so survieability needs a buff, becouse its to easy to get kill right now and it takes no skill, you dont have to plan your burst like you used to, now its just launching a couple of burst skill now matter how tanky ypur opponet is and boom they are dead.

Urzigurumash · May 16

"Couple of burst skills" yeah WAY too much work! It should only take 1 skill. Old multi butts we used to call em, always demanding people have to press multiple buttons. No thanks grandpa, grow some thumbs so they can relax while we cruise down easy street with burst burst and more burst.

Ugh and dont get me started on TANKS!! Omg the word alone makes me sick to my stomach!! 🤢🤮 Even IRL everywhere I go Tanks Tanks Tanks!! Stub your toe? Thats a tank. Mosquito bite ya? Well now your itch is a TANK!

Thanks for ruining my day having to think about multi butts and TANK META. Suff Borc! Herf Neavy Armor!

Militan1404 · May 16

Urzigurumash wrote: »

"Couple of burst skills" yeah WAY too much work! It should only take 1 skill. Old multi butts we used to call em, always demanding people have to press multiple buttons. No thanks grandpa, grow some thumbs so they can relax while we cruise down easy street with burst burst and more burst.

Ugh and dont get me started on TANKS!! Omg the word alone makes me sick to my stomach!! 🤢🤮 Even IRL everywhere I go Tanks Tanks Tanks!! Stub your toe? Thats a tank. Mosquito bite ya? Well now your itch is a TANK!

Thanks for ruining my day having to think about multi butts and TANK META. Suff Borc! Herf Neavy Armor!

If you wont to be able to one shot players why dont you play a shoot em’up instead? They do that play style much better this is an mmo.

Urzigurumash · May 16

Nah for real must be a PC thing. Theres like a small handful of people who play Tanks on Xbox NA. There must be something going on differently cuz the way this forum talks about Tanks in PVP sounds totally deranged and always has. Like they're playing a different game.

On that point, different games, FPS is still No 1 PVP format? So naturally many players will want ESO to be like one of them. I liked the more Fighting Game pace of the pre Greymoor era, but we never had Camo Hunter ganking on Xbox.

Different strokes for different folks. For now I assume all eyes on Vengeance. Which I played for like 10 minutes and quit cuz I couldnt kill anyone and everyone was a tank. True story

imPDA · May 16

This seems like your problem, there are too much tank builds around, tackiness always was the easiest part of PvP, you can easily make a build which will survive the most DPS build, but not vice versa, so no.

I would better see a little bit less burst damage but less healing as well, because currently, noob players are one-shottable but pros are hard to kill, because if they did mistake, it can be fixed with excessive healing. With less burst damage noobs still will be easy target but they stop dying in one combo, and with less healing pros will not be able to recover after some critical mistakes, and if they still would like to be unkillable, they would need exchange some damage with survivability. It would bring more balance into current burst nonsense.

But do not increase tankiness, no, thank you, it will solve nothing.

Urzigurumash · May 16

Many of us have been saying for years Double Battlespirit. Cut Damage and Healing in half AGAIN.

It's not just about the 1 shottable noobs or the unkillable meta humping speedfreaks.

Used to be in this game you had to do things to work someone down and THEN line up the burst combo. Now as you say 9 times out of 10 its:

- they cant be worked down. 20k Healing Soul to the rescue

- they dont need to be. theres nothing a 20k whip or a 15k merciless can't solve.

Urzigurumash · May 16

Militan1404 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

"Couple of burst skills" yeah WAY too much work! It should only take 1 skill. Old multi butts we used to call em, always demanding people have to press multiple buttons. No thanks grandpa, grow some thumbs so they can relax while we cruise down easy street with burst burst and more burst.

Ugh and dont get me started on TANKS!! Omg the word alone makes me sick to my stomach!! 🤢🤮 Even IRL everywhere I go Tanks Tanks Tanks!! Stub your toe? Thats a tank. Mosquito bite ya? Well now your itch is a TANK!

Thanks for ruining my day having to think about multi butts and TANK META. Suff Borc! Herf Neavy Armor!

If you wont to be able to one shot players why dont you play a shoot em’up instead? They do that play style much better this is an mmo.

Yeah I was kidding 😆 and agreed 100% as I indicated in my other post

What platform you on OP? I suspect this Tank thing is a PC NA problem, since it's the most popular platform and the game is probably easier with a mouse (is it idk) maybe it attracts way more noobs than the Hardcore Elite MLG scene on Xbox NA

Urzigurumash · May 16

imPDA wrote: »

This seems like your problem, there are too much tank builds around, tackiness always was the easiest part of PvP, you can easily make a build which will survive the most DPS build, but not vice versa, so no.

This is so missing the point. It makes me wonder how long you have played the game to not understand what OP meant. It's about the pace at which the HP moves. Let me say it this way:

HP Velocity should be reduced to restore tactical counterplay more to what it used to be.

Lord_Hev · May 16

Reducing rampant power creep is the only fair method of "buffing tankiness" that is needed. But good luck trying to convince everyone of this. Not that I can lay fault when we as a player base have been conditioned by over-nerfs in the past(and still present and presently!).

imPDA · May 16

Urzigurumash wrote: »

HP Velocity should be reduced to restore tactical counterplay more to what it used to be.

If you simply reduce damage taken, you will end up with situation where you need 5 minutes to make opponent low HP and 1 cast for them to heal to full back, so reread my comment. Reducing damage done (not all, but burst as the main problem atm. Or you can decrease all damage done) has the same effect as reducing damage taken, BUT this alone can't help you, because healing is too far from balance point.

Anyway, I strongly believe ZOS has no metrics defined for PvP and they simply can't understand what it means for skills and sets to be strong or weak, they have no TTK on mind (or don't even know what it is), they don't have PvP consultants outside of the company or strong PvP players inside of the company, it is not the priority. Only like 5% of players are PvP oriented or even less (but PvP oriented players are far more loyal, because they don't need new dungeon or trial to join the game. Hundreds of people are playing on the same location for years! So, we will see no changes in this field anymore, you all can do tanks and feel free to zerg, it will be the only gameplay available in Vengeance anyway. In all other PvP content you could play different classes and builds, because it will make you off meta sets and it will place you in underdog situation from the very beginning, so no more diversity in PvP allow. Only one class and one build rules the others (or maybe 2-3) for several years and it will continue like this. And final note, hybridization was not finished, subclassing was not finished, both better be removed

moo_2021 · May 16

Militan1404 wrote: »

I dont say tanks needs a buff and wasnt my intention if it came out like that, i was talking about buffing tankiness/suvivability not tanks. I think damage is way to high so survieability needs a buff, becouse its to easy to get kill right now and it takes no skill, you dont have to plan your burst like you used to, now its just launching a couple of burst skill now matter how tanky ypur opponet is and boom they are dead.

There is a threshold for each burst combo. If you build beyond that threshold, they literally can't kill you and the fight turns into battle of attrition and competing who runs out of resource first.

I think your opinion is heavily distorted by that most people who die easily from oneshot are using PvE or old builds not optimized for latest changes, while players who do burst well keep their builds up-to-date. While burst attacks have grown stronger over the years, so have healing, shield and offensive toolkits available to players building very tanky. For instance, weren't there mentions of unkillable 50k hp warden using Mechanical Acuity to bust people? that's pre-subclassing.

So the real issue is the gap between the two player groups have grown wider and wider. But how could it not have? There are now a lot more sets, mythics, scribing and combination of skills and passives than 2 or 3 years ago, and very little of public guides for PvP. Changing game mechanics would not help it, short of vengeance type templates.

Urzigurumash · May 16

imPDA wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

HP Velocity should be reduced to restore tactical counterplay more to what it used to be.

If you simply reduce damage taken, you will end up with situation where you need 5 minutes to make opponent low HP and 1 cast for them to heal to full back, so reread my comment. Reducing damage done (not all, but burst as the main problem atm. Or you can decrease all damage done) has the same effect as reducing damage taken, BUT this alone can't help you, because healing is too far from balance point.
Anyway, I strongly believe ZOS has no metrics defined for PvP and they simply can't understand what it means for skills and sets to be strong or weak, they have no TTK on mind (or don't even know what it is), they don't have PvP consultants outside of the company or strong PvP players inside of the company, it is not the priority. Only like 5% of players are PvP oriented or even less (but PvP oriented players are far more loyal, because they don't need new dungeon or trial to join the game. Hundreds of people are playing on the same location for years! So, we will see no changes in this field anymore, you all can do tanks and feel free to zerg, it will be the only gameplay available in Vengeance anyway. In all other PvP content you could play different classes and builds, because it will make you off meta sets and it will place you in underdog situation from the very beginning, so no more diversity in PvP allow. Only one class and one build rules the others (or maybe 2-3) for several years and it will continue like this. And final note, hybridization was not finished, subclassing was not finished, both better be removed

Velocity both ways, up and down, somewhere I said Double Battlespirit, both Damage and Healing.

It's hard to put into words really. Yes 1v1s still stall out all the time... MOST of the time. But when someone finally slips up and misses their OP Heal they drop more quickly than in the past.

To put it simply the combat is much SIMPLER than it used to be.

Prionyx · May 16

Militan1404 wrote: »

Now that damage has been buffed and buffed patch after patch while survieability has been nothing but nerfed its time to either buff survieability or reduce dmg in some way or form. For about a year ago 120k dps was realy good now players can do 200k+ in dps witch is insaine. Major force has been made to easy to maintain but sets that gives crit resistance has been nerfed, subclass has insane dmg and DK can one shot the tankiest player like they made out of butter. Its like each update is getting worse and worse and feels more and more like playing CS than ESO, something has to be done about this power creep that has been going on. Dont know how to fix it but there is lots of things that could be done, increase resistance cap, make it easyer and more ways to get crit resistance, un-nerf health recovery, damage taken decreased by 75% in battle spirit. Its kind of hard to figure way to fix it without nerfing the pure classes that are allready weak and is low on dmg like necro and templar, but something needs to be done.

Huh
It has to be hard nerfed, not buffed