Al_Ex_Andre wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

The lead is likely not broken. I've done hundreds of runs of the leads I need over the past few months with no luck, but lootlog shows them frequently dropping for other players in the runs (especially dungeon leads). At least LL helps confirm it's not broken but it is annoying and boring to run the same five dungeons almost a thousand times and still not have even the second copy of a lead....

yeah, but the chance is so slim then, then it could be considered broken, in a different meaning. But to each its own, I won't do this mess anymore.

The problem is we've had several threads about the abysmal droprate of leads and asking if it's bugged and zos has said "we will go check it" and come back shortly after saying it's working as intended. That is the problem, they do not currently see a problem with the current droprates in the system despite us as players trying to get them to see it is a problem, hence this thread and others.

We also know from the earlier threads if you come to them with the accusation it is bugged, they will check for bugs and if it is not they will say "there is no problem here." That is why lead discourse has changed to how it's disrespecting players time/effort, has no sense of reliable progression like every other system in game does, etc, because at the heart of it that is the problem with leads and the things we need them to address/fix. That is why I advise not continuing to spin our wheels talking about bugs and go straight to where the problem lies, because I think that's the only hope we have for seeing it change.

For some added context: By the time I had farmed the 3 relics, and the 3 dungeons in the Night Market I had 3 out of 3 on all codex entries for those antiquities.

In the same amount of time, I've run BC2 and the 1st secret boss in GD well over a dozen times and have not had the 3rd iteration of their leads drop.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

For some added context: By the time I had farmed the 3 relics, and the 3 dungeons in the Night Market I had 3 out of 3 on all codex entries for those antiquities.

In the same amount of time, I've run BC2 and the 1st secret boss in GD well over a dozen times and have not had the 3rd iteration of their leads drop.

The night market lead situation is outrageous.

What is this nonsense? You don't have to camp the same argent for 135 respawns to get a lead? You just... engage with the gameplay loop and you get rewarded for it?

Absolutely ludicrous.

Hereby I prescribe that you farm no less than three buzzing spines as means of atonement.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I'll be adding this to my OP.

One of, if not our biggest, gripes with leads are the ones from Treasure Maps. ZOS recently changed the maps to not only stack, but also to come a container containing a random map. This has caused this problem:

TTC Listing for Telvanni Treasure Maps in their entirety:


TTC Listing for Unopened Treasure Map:


That's a problem.

Before the map changes I could get Telvanni maps for 1-3k on PC NA, now it's 8-10k for a bargain but most are closer to 15-20k. A friend of mine has sent me their extra treasure maps for over a year and I used to get 1-3 mails a week but since the u49 changes I have been lucky to get 1 a month. It's really not cool that it feels like the treasure map QOL changes came with a drawback/monkey's paw effect and ZOS should really buff them back to their old droprate. QOL is meant to be QOL not a tradeoff...

MoonPile wrote: »

It's even worse with Solstice Maps, of course. "Cheap" price is ~50k.

Oh, it's not the price I was having the issue with. When I said that was the entirety of the TP listing I meant it - 7 maps for sale vs 44 pages (440 items) of Unopened maps.

Edit: Added items number

Yökarhu wrote: »

Leads are so super frustrating, bc you are at the mercy of the rng, no matter what you do, you can't effect the outcome and I loathe gambling. Sure, its fine we need to farm the leads, but they shouldn't be our day job!

It is absolute grabage, to farm Galen dailies for weeks, getting hundreds of coffers and not a lead to the darn furniture that I need to do 3 HECKING TIMES to be able to buy it to my other houses. I regret sooo much buying 6 months eso+ (learned my lesson, not gonna happen again). there is no respect for our time.

That's what I hate about the rng for leads. As I've said before, most of the time I think about quitting this game, it's because I've invested tons of time into trying to get a lead, and it just won't drop.

In an MMO, it's important that reward match the time invested, and this is one area where it doesn't. Not by a long shot. It starts to feel like the dev teams hates its players. They need to do at least one of three follwing three things:

1. A pity system
2. Increased RNG for leads (and remove double RNG cases)
3. More leads vendors that take more currencies. Right now, only those who like the IA or PvP in IC have an easy mode to get leads. The rest of us deserve one too.

AzuraFan wrote: »

Yökarhu wrote: »

Leads are so super frustrating, bc you are at the mercy of the rng, no matter what you do, you can't effect the outcome and I loathe gambling. Sure, its fine we need to farm the leads, but they shouldn't be our day job!

It is absolute grabage, to farm Galen dailies for weeks, getting hundreds of coffers and not a lead to the darn furniture that I need to do 3 HECKING TIMES to be able to buy it to my other houses. I regret sooo much buying 6 months eso+ (learned my lesson, not gonna happen again). there is no respect for our time.

That's what I hate about the rng for leads. As I've said before, most of the time I think about quitting this game, it's because I've invested tons of time into trying to get a lead, and it just won't drop.

In an MMO, it's important that reward match the time invested, and this is one area where it doesn't. Not by a long shot. It starts to feel like the dev teams hates its players. They need to do at least one of three follwing three things:

1. A pity system
2. Increased RNG for leads (and remove double RNG cases)
3. More leads vendors that take more currencies. Right now, only those who like the IA or PvP in IC have an easy mode to get leads. The rest of us deserve one too.

Any time I complain about leads in my guild chats, I mention how much I like the RuneScape boss pet pity system.

For those unfamiliar:

Let's say to get the Ritual Circlet for the Gaze of Sithis, the drop rate is 1 / 20 from Cradle of Shadows.

The pity system would work as follows.

Each source of a lead will have a threshold, we'll call it y. For the purposes of this, Cradle of Shadows' threshold is 20. For each run of Cradle of Shadows, we increment a counter by one each time we do not get the lead. When our counter reaches 20, it resets. The drop rate will then become 2 / 20, and the cycle begins again until we get the lead. For the sake of this, we should probably make it lower, because 20 is roughly where people are getting leads at anyways.

AzuraFan wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

The pity system would work as follows.

Each source of a lead will have a threshold, we'll call it y. For the purposes of this, Cradle of Shadows' threshold is 20. For each run of Cradle of Shadows, we increment a counter by one each time we do not get the lead. When our counter reaches 20, it resets. The drop rate will then become 2 / 20, and the cycle begins again until we get the lead. For the sake of this, we should probably make it lower, because 20 is roughly where people are getting leads at anyways.

I think the "pity rate" should depend on where the lead is sourced. You have to spend a lot of time for a chance at some dungeon leads. Other leads, not so much. Harvesting leads (leads you get from a resource node) can be very time consuming if they're not dropping, so perhaps a node count would be good there.

I doubt very much they'll implement a pity system because it would require tracking a ton of data for each account. So while I suggested it, I did so more for completeness. Instead, I'd like to see drop rates increased significantly where it makes sense. Bosses in dungeons, for example, where you might have to spend 20-30 minutes (not counting queue time) just for a chance at the lead.

And I'd really, really like to see #3. Two vendors that take specific currencies and only offer 2 leads a week just isn't enough. There should be vendors that take other currencies, and for the love of Azura, have them offer 10-20 leads a week, please, so we don't have to wait more than a year for a lead to come around.

They already track a ton of data, from boss kills to plants harvested.

It took me a year to get the last lead in the Ruins of Mazzatun for the kilt. And I have resolved that I will never have the Velothi Ur amulet because of Schrivners. The dungeon leads kill me.

Displaced_Salad wrote: »

RNG is never addressed. It's always promises but a few breadcrumbs of some QoL improvements is about all that pans out, if that.

The silence on a lot of issues is deafening in general, but lets just look at the in-game feedback system, for instance. How many years have we had antiquities and companions now? And is there a category that fits those things? Nope. Those are both big enough mechanics to warrant at least a sub category. And they aren't the only new mechanics/features to be left out.

I'd like to think that seeking common information and suggesting/asking for help/information is more helpful that flooding the system with carbon copy support tickets from multiple players, hence the existence of the forums. But it's just screaming into the void. And I remember that every time I might be tempted to spend money.

My biggest problem with RNG is the hypocrisy and double standards employed. There are a few mythic leads I was chasing and I completed the entire sticker book for a dungeon (bar 2 weapons) before it finally dropped. I actually messaged support asking if there was a bug. I was told "It's just RNG". But you go and farm patterns/recipes there is a "cooldown" because making that extra chair will break the game; but having you farm for a lead for 2 months is totally fine and is just "RNG". That really does my head in as is really unfair.

AzuraFan wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

They already track a ton of data, from boss kills to plants harvested.

Sure, but think about what they'd have to track for leads - for every source, how many times you've interacted with it. How many overland mobs you've killed in Stros M'Kai, how many daily coffers you've received in Galen, how many times you've harvested wood nodes in Glenumbra. And that's just three.

Hey, I'd be glad to be wrong and see a robust and fair pity system, but the other two options would be a lot faster for them to implement.

All of those are already tracked.

AzuraFan wrote: »

ellmarie wrote: »

It took me a year to get the last lead in the Ruins of Mazzatun for the kilt. And I have resolved that I will never have the Velothi Ur amulet because of Schrivners. The dungeon leads kill me.

You can buy the scrivener's lead. The only problem is that you might have to wait more than a year for it to appear at the vendors again. Also, if you don't like the IA or don't PvP in IC, then forget it.

I'm nearing 1000 runs of Graven Deep without my second copy of the lead there. It's dropping, and I see it in loot log all the time but at this point my friends, guildies, and I are all sick of running it and even if I had it drop tomorrow I'd still need another copy or to wait for it to roll in one of the vendors. It was extra frustrating because I farmed it very hard the week the Coral Aerie sister lead was in the IA vendor since I need another copy of it too but it just wouldn't drop meaning both leads are up to chance. That is another frustration of going for lore entries for leads is for multiparters your progress is completely stalled out if a problem lead arises.

I'm missing 95 leads, 44 of those are multipart leads, of those 44 I only have 14 eligible to drop. I have been for three months farming those 14 (some daily like Bastion Nymics, some when I have downtime like queing for my bundle of 5 dungeons I need leads from right now). It feels miserable to spend months with little to no progress to show for it. As others pointed out, dungeons have queue downtime if you do not have friends/guildies fill and some dungeons have conditional leads that feel impossible in a pug due to the friction of most people in the dungeon queue doing pledges/random normal for xp meaning they want to get done asap (falkreath chest lead, coral aerie and graven deep side boss lead, etc). ICP's twitching eyeball lead is also a problem because it drops in the middle of the dungeon and it's a long dungeon even with good dps compared to others and some people who are farming it just drop at the boss and requeue. Conversely there are leads that feel better like the one in Banished Cells that drop from every source in it not just the final boss. I was lucky to be in a Godslayer prog and finished my sunspire lead through the course of that (though I did joke "which comes first, our gs clear or my lead codex finishing?" and I got my last needed lead two pulls before the prog wrapped). I was also incredibly lucky to take advantage of vmol rolling for the weekly to get the leads there finished (it also helps that from my experience and lootlog snooping all Solstice leads feel like they have a higher overall droprate).

Regardless, more anecdotal data and feelsbad on the pile with a request to ZOS that leads that depend on grouping/drop in group content need looked at in the same way that map based leads do because for the GD/CA like ones especially you are at the mercy of your group even being willing to do the side bosses and most people don't have the luxury of phoning in as many people as I do for my lead grind.

Emeratis wrote: »

I'm nearing 1000 runs of Graven Deep without my second copy of the lead there. It's dropping, and I see it in loot log all the time but at this point my friends...willing to do the side bosses and most people don't have the luxury of phoning in as many people as I do for my lead grind.

Truncating the quote to save screen space for people.

In my experience dungeon leads which drop off of things that aren't the final boss are inanely stingy. No one should have to run something 1000 times before they get 3 copies of a lead. The same is true for leads that can drop form multiple things like chests. Once you have the first one, which typically has a higher chance, the rng fall off a cliff and some people will consistently low roll it. For other examples see monster trophy rng, for recent examples see night market 'weak enemy' splinters and pre-hotfix box splinters.

I actually know someone who still has yet to get their first ICP watcher boss lead. They aren't spam farming it but still it is kind of crazy right? They play daily just only run the dungeon when they get a group that is doing it.

Honestly the whole concept of locking lore behind a silly rng system that will cause some people to not be able to get it for literally years unless they spam farm all of the time, and in the case of the above even if they do, is crazy.

The lore tidbits for completion should be a separate research mini game and only require you to dig it up once. They are supposed to be rare antiquities it is silly in concept that you can find multiple in the first place. The lore bits are all about the antiquarians debating about each antiquity right so maybe we should go talk to them? You could do it similar to trait research even, though that is a bit less engaging I do think some amount of time to study them would be fine as long as it isn't too long. The items you can get multiple times (mythics, housing stuff, motifs, etc?) should also say replica either as part of their name or in the tool-tip. Logically you wouldn't take a sword from ancient Rome out of a museum and go waving it around in an actual sword fight. From a lore stand point it should be more implied that by studying the antiquity we have been able to recreate the items

Related to the above idea, which I have been sitting on for a bit now and just haven't gotten around to posting...I don't want to derail this thread the rng needs to be fixed in the short term.

My idea does raise some issues.

• What about multiple copies of mythics: recon them. I don't want 3 copies of a mythic I will never actually use anyways.
• What about housing items: Digging this shouldn't give you the housing item. The first copy should give you a free replica of it (maybe mailed to you?). After that you should be able to buy them from a merchant for a reasonable price. The more research study you have done should decrease this price.
• Motifs: Similar to housing. First copy give you a free copy so you can eat it. After that you can buy (a tradable copy) from the merchant.
• I am probably missing something that benefits from repeated copies.

The merchants should probably be separate housing/motif and maybe per zone or dlc? Having the thing or not could be tracked through achievements or something.

If a system like this was implemented the repeated lead rng issue would just go away.

Also once you have all of the lore bits, or in my system after the first copy. The lead should stop dropping. Obviously in the current system this should only be true of things that done benefit from multiple copies beyond 3 (or how ever many lore bits a given thing has).

Sorry if this was a bit ramble-y. I tend to write a bit how I speak sometimes.

AzuraFan wrote: »

Two of the three are (though perhaps not in perpetuity, but just until you get the achievement or complete the challenge), but I doubt the number of overland mobs I've killed in Stros M'kai is tracked. Or how many times I've killed every boss in every delve. Or how many times I've killed each WB in every zone. Or every public dungeon boss. Etc. And we've hardly gotten started. Also remember that one of the reasons they gave for AwA was "the database."

World boss kills are tracked. The achievements for them are likely stored as a 0 or 1, true or false. If we are talking about a pity rate, then that means a cap, and a reasonable cap would be 10 before the counter reset. So the database is already there. The question is how much extra storage would it take to track a 0/1 vs 9 kills. Depending on the data type there could be no difference, being 1 byte.

Emeratis wrote: »

Thoriorz wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

ellmarie wrote: »

It took me a year to get the last lead in the Ruins of Mazzatun for the kilt. And I have resolved that I will never have the Velothi Ur amulet because of Schrivners. The dungeon leads kill me.

You can buy the scrivener's lead. The only problem is that you might have to wait more than a year for it to appear at the vendors again. Also, if you don't like the IA or don't PvP in IC, then forget it.

I'm nearing 1000 runs of Graven Deep without my second copy of the lead there. .

If you mean the "Nonreactive Cincture" Lead, you can farm it faster by just killing the first secret boss—you don't have to run the whole dungeon or have a full group. You can get to the first secret boss easily (without a fight), you'll kill him, then just port out (you don't even have to go back to the beginning—just click "Travel to Player" on a friend or guild member...) and reset. When I was working on the codex for this, that's how I farmed it.

But 1000 full runs? You must be the unluckiest person on the planet.

I did figure this out recently and have been trying it but sometimes I play in an hour where people aren't online to group with me for resets and it still requires that but I plan on poking people more for a body to afk group with after Night Market chaos dies down a little bit for me.

And yes, this is why I have said with the new event fragment system and other things in eso, pure rng without pity will always have highrollers and lowrollers and it feels awful when you're on the lowrolling side of the spectrum. My lead luck is notoriously bad and has been clowny bad for this one in particular. Regardless, I wish the codex had a genuine since or progression. I have had little to no progress in my lead farming since January of this year and I've put in more hours than I probably should and it's demoralizing. I'm also close to 1000 runs of wayrest sewers 1 and need two copies of that lead too. Honestly most of my lead luck is decent except for the dungeon leads and treasure map leads, both of which are infamously tedious. I've been queing for the bundle of my missing leads and having no luck for months but it's currently narrowed down to BC2, Wayrest 1, Imperial City Prison, Graven Deep, March of Sacrifices, and Shipwright's Regret. MHK and Coral Aerie would be on the list but the leads are ineligible to drop until the paired one drops again.

Like I don't want the leads for free I just want the effort I put into it to feel proportional to the reward, which it currently isn't if you lowroll. I also know a dozen people who had just as bad of luck as me and just gave up.

Yea, or if there’s no one online for reset, the dungeon resets on its own (I think after 15 minutes?), I used to do it sometimes by doing the activities I’d normally do in the game and every once in a while I’d take on that boss in Graven Deep, yknow, just as a side activity time to time while doing something else...

Luckily for me, the dungeon Leads were, I’d say, at a normal RNG level, but overall I’ve had leads where I spent xy hours for a single drop...

But yes, I agree that overall, the devs should take a look at this(globaly). As you say, a player should be rewarded for their effort; if you run a dungeon 1,000 times and still don’t have a Lead, that speaks for itself...

But I have to admit that when it comes to the "recently" added Antiquities (Solstice and Night Market), I think the RNG is ok there. I don’t know if it was just me or if the devs actually did something, but... (and of course, I’m not talking about the ones from Treasure Maps—as usual, Solstice had a ton of them, and it took hundreds of maps to complete the 3/3 codex; that’s still just as bad as ever.)