I can't do two bars!

moo_2021 · May 7

I tried really hard - put on a beam build with pale order, did good against world boss, then I went to solo nBRP, spending half of my time running and dodging, let alone doing any rotation, can barely pass first 2 waves.

Then the 2 bar version of my tanky PVP build with tons of healing - jumped into a losing BG game, 4x4 (basically 2 vs 4), nowhere to hide, major resolve not working (from combat metrics), enemies hit like truck and I died almost instantly every time without being able to contribute. But, as soon as I put on the one bar version, I could focus and deal real damage.

Why is that? As far as I can tell, almost nobody else in BG or Cyrodiil use one bar, and they rarely panic or appear to struggle with buffs. I'm doing all right with my one bar builds for now, but the options are very limited - the ring, no backbar proc or monster helm. I can't even do vengeance. Every time I tried two bars it just seems hopeless except against static targets.

Also I'm using controller and a TV as my screen, so half of the time I'm not sure exactly what my enemies are doing, except the obvious whip (e.g. I can't see if corrosive is on). But surely console players don't have the same problem as I do?

Oblivion_Protocol · May 7

Bar swapping quickly takes a lot of skill and practice. But it also takes quick reflexes, and not everyone has those.

Soarora · May 7

You might just need practice. I started with having my backbar be for movement (major expedition, gap closer…) and front bar for damage. Similarly, for PvP I think it’s common to have one bar offense, one bar defense. That way, your bars are for two different things. That might be an easier starting point than using your second bar as vaguely another bar to work with.

People also do a lot of parsing— sitting at a dummy in a house and practicing their rotation. I listen to upbeat music most of the time to make it less boring and to help with keeping a tempo. Doing that will help you with your backbar uptime problem (and being able to do a rotation in more intense circumstances— muscle memory).

Edit: I forgot a massively important thing: you need to have some sort of timers for your skills. There’s a base game setting for backbar skill timers but Fancy Action Bar+ addon is better (and very customizable). I have mine set so that I can see if a backbar skill falls off because the icon disappears from on top of my active skill bar. Makes it easy to see.

moo_2021 · May 7

Soarora wrote: »

I started with having my backbar be for movement (major expedition, gap closer…) and front bar for damage. Similarly, for PvP I think it’s common to have one bar offense, one bar defense. That way, your bars are for two different things. That might be an easier starting point than using your second bar as vaguely another bar to work with.

What about burst heal and resolving vigor? Or do people use some form of barswap cancellation?

Militan1404 · May 7

Wish they buffed oakensoul back to its former glory and not only make it usefull for some heavy attack builds. Didnt use it much myself but it brought lots of player confidence to do content they normally wouldn’t.

Nestor · May 7

I rarely ever bar swap. Before Oakensoul, I would use one bar for Single Target and one Bar for AoE to take care of mob packs and trash. Also helps to have the same functional sequence on your bars for skills. For example: 1 Buff, 2 and 3 DoT, 4 your Spammable Damage and 5 your execute or shield or heal. In any event, pick a mix that makes sense to you, use skills that buff each other and that will help.

Now, with Oakensoul, I just run one bar.

Also, something easy to learn, and quite effective to increase DPS is LIght Attack Animation Canceling. You can stand in front a Target Dummy and get the muscle memory and the timing down and you will do just fine out side of Competitive Trials and Hard Mode DLC Vet stuff.

Vaqual · May 8

Rule of thumb: If you feel like you can't execute an operation in a game, your keybinds are not optimal. Work with your strengths, not against them.
Ask yourself:
When do you want to swap?
What fingers are free, which ones are occupied in such a moment?
How straining is a motion?
How does it fit into your general motion pattern?

Organizing your keybinds and staying consistent is the best way to form working muscle memory. You need to be able to execute your gameplay without looking, then you will have time to watch your opponent.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · May 8

A lot of folks can't do this for many reasons and they should not be punished for them. They should restore it as it was. It would be a good thing for the game.

SkaiFaith · May 8

1+ for restoring Oakensoul, but in case you don't know, PTS testers report a buff to Heavy Attacks for upcoming U50, which is not a complete solution but is something at least.

I have nerves issues resulting in my hands being "baby-hands" easily hurting and with limited amount of strength. I just simply MUST use Oakensoul. Trying anything else hurts me eventually. And btw, I have pain with Oakensoul too if I force myself in long sessions of IA, NM, like in recent days.

On the topic of OP: I don't want to discourage anyone to try and improve, but I think for some players two bars is just not an option, really. Go with Oakensoul and your combat experience will change. Be prepared to being pushed back by some groups.

(Since Zos is buffing Heavy Attack's, would be nice if they restore Tri-focus passive from Staves so that the splash damage returns to be applied to every tick of the channel and not just the last boom; would definitely help with harder content, especially since Heavy Attacks are also buggy and often refute to fire when you swap targeted enemy.)

Sluggy · May 8

moo_2021 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I started with having my backbar be for movement (major expedition, gap closer…) and front bar for damage. Similarly, for PvP I think it’s common to have one bar offense, one bar defense. That way, your bars are for two different things. That might be an easier starting point than using your second bar as vaguely another bar to work with.

What about burst heal and resolving vigor? Or do people use some form of barswap cancellation?

I usually keep them on my backbar. But that is primarily because I usually play with a shield on backbar and if I need to block while spamming heals then obviously I want it all in one place.

It's all about muscle memory. You get that from practice and nothing else.

moo_2021 · May 8

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

A lot of folks can't do this for many reasons and they should not be punished for them. They should restore it as it was. It would be a good thing for the game.

Note i'm not complaining about one bar performance. In fact I think my builds are quite good in PvP despite having almost no rotation.

If anything, variaties would be nice to have. But no idea how to balance that.

Soarora · May 8

moo_2021 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I started with having my backbar be for movement (major expedition, gap closer…) and front bar for damage. Similarly, for PvP I think it’s common to have one bar offense, one bar defense. That way, your bars are for two different things. That might be an easier starting point than using your second bar as vaguely another bar to work with.

What about burst heal and resolving vigor? Or do people use some form of barswap cancellation?

For most of my builds, I don’t have each bar dedicated to different things so for me personally I have my burst heal and resolving vigor on frontbar. Echoing vigor I’ll put on my backbar because it’s a longer duration.

Edit:
My PvE builds (except for my main, who uses backbar for traversal) use the bars more like this:
For dps, front bar spammable(s) + skills that have strong passives + anything that needs dual wield (like blade cloak). Backbar long damage over time abilities and the weapon’s ground area of effect to proc my backbar enchant no matter what bar I’m on.

Tank, front bar burst heal + skills that have strong passives + chain (personal preference) + puncture. Backbar utility (debuffs), range taunt, my major resolve skill…

SkaiFaith wrote: »

On the topic of OP: I don't want to discourage anyone to try and improve, but I think for some players two bars is just not an option, really. Go with Oakensoul and your combat experience will change. Be prepared to being pushed back by some groups.

You are discouraging the attempt by saying this. Yes, sure, some people can’t do much more than hold down a button but OP didn’t mention any health constraints, it just sounds like 2 bars is currently overwhelming because they need practice.

Kalthea · May 8

Elder Scrolls Online is very janky in terms of combat mechanics, and there is a lot you need to juggle. There are ways of making this easier on yourself. For example, my bars are set up in a "count down" system. 4, 3, 2, 1, bar swap. I currently run a permanent buff skill in slot 5, so I can ignore that slot entirely. Here is my rundown (frost MagDen):

Backbar:
5-Mage Light (Passives, Mage's Guild)
4-Blue Betty
3-Bleed Trap (Fighter's Guild)
2-Winter's Revenge
1-Wall of Elements

Bar Swap

This gets me my buffs and places down my DoT ground effects in one smooth roation, and requires no thought process other than focusing on my weaving (I hate weaving, but that is a different discussion). Just take your time to feel out how you want to lay out your skills on your bar. Remember, you don't have to follow every guide perfectly.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · May 9

SkaiFaith wrote: »

1+ for restoring Oakensoul, but in case you don't know, PTS testers report a buff to Heavy Attacks for upcoming U50, which is not a complete solution but is something at least.

I have nerves issues resulting in my hands being "baby-hands" easily hurting and with limited amount of strength. I just simply MUST use Oakensoul. Trying anything else hurts me eventually. And btw, I have pain with Oakensoul too if I force myself in long sessions of IA, NM, like in recent days.

On the topic of OP: I don't want to discourage anyone to try and improve, but I think for some players two bars is just not an option, really. Go with Oakensoul and your combat experience will change. Be prepared to being pushed back by some groups.

(Since Zos is buffing Heavy Attack's, would be nice if they restore Tri-focus passive from Staves so that the splash damage returns to be applied to every tick of the channel and not just the last boom; would definitely help with harder content, especially since Heavy Attacks are also buggy and often refute to fire when you swap targeted enemy.)

Yes and restore the cleave so everyone can do it not just the Arcanists they forced upon us when they wrecked it. Or take the ranged cleave off of the beam. Thats fair.

tomfant · May 9

moo_2021 wrote: »

I tried really hard - put on a beam build with pale order, did good against world boss, then I went to solo nBRP, spending half of my time running and dodging, let alone doing any rotation, can barely pass first 2 waves.

Pale Order requires constantly pumping out a decent amount of damage in order to get carried by its healing. Doing no damage = no healing from it. Just do your rotation and face tank everything except heavies from elite enemies. Your health bar will move a lot but as long as there is no oneshot you're fine. Movement in small circles, without having the enemies leave your ground AoE, helps avoiding quite a few of incoming attacks. For some encounters, slotting a chain is helpful to pull ranged mobs in. More foes in your AoE means more healing from pale order.

The first arena of BRP has a lot of archers, that don't come to you, and need to be interrupted if they don't die quickly. Same for the fire mages. Archers can be pulled, the mages can't. But they always spawn at the exact same spot. Either memorize their spawn location or use an addon that tells you when and where they spawn.

moo_2021 · May 9

what about for PvP? I face problems with buff management - With one bar I keep minimal max resource but high recovery, since there is nothing on timer except vigor, while with two bars I must leave reserves to refresh buffs or it'd be fatal. But to have reserves I must increase max resources from the base 12k, and change the singular combat style (which is just endless attack and waving burst heal under pressure)?

Usureki · May 11

Maybe very trivial, but that's why it might be a useful tip: also make sure that your hotkeys are comfortable to reach. Makes no sense to make your life difficult with keybinds taking too much effort to use. I for example use the side buttons of my mouse for swap and dodge.

Justosay · May 11

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Bar swapping quickly takes a lot of skill and practice. But it also takes quick reflexes, and not everyone has those.

It's funny... "Bar swapping quickly" depends on software and hardware. It's not a matter of skill, practice, or "reflexes".
And all these online PvP tricks have long been known.

Sluggy · 2:54AM

moo_2021 wrote: »

what about for PvP? I face problems with buff management - With one bar I keep minimal max resource but high recovery, since there is nothing on timer except vigor, while with two bars I must leave reserves to refresh buffs or it'd be fatal. But to have reserves I must increase max resources from the base 12k, and change the singular combat style (which is just endless attack and waving burst heal under pressure)?

Again. Assuming you don't have physical limitations then it's simply a matter of practice. I got into the habit very early on of cycling my buffs all the time: When I'm running around town doing writs, collecting daily quests, crafting, simply going from point A to point B. Waiting for people to join party for trials, waiting for a dungeon queues to pop. Often while waiting on people or queues I'm just practicing my combos while keeping all buffs up against literally every mob I come across. At this point it is so ingrained in me I can't NOT do it. I don't think about it. I don't even realize I'm doing it.

Have you ever watched Metalocolypse? It's basically like Skwisgaar when he's just doing random finger positions.on his guitar even when he's not playing it. All the time, regardless of the sitation. lol

Justosay wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Bar swapping quickly takes a lot of skill and practice. But it also takes quick reflexes, and not everyone has those.

It's funny... "Bar swapping quickly" depends on software and hardware. It's not a matter of skill, practice, or "reflexes".
And all these online PvP tricks have long been known.

I'm guessing you don't play any instruments? There's eighty-eight keys on most full sized pianos and I've seen people smash the majority of them faster, harder, and in more complicated patterns using more fingers than this game would ever require in the tightest of situations. The biggest factor after execution is of course lag. But lag only becomes the most significant factor AFTER that point. Are there macro users? Sure. But you don't need them. They aren't required. I wouldn't even call this skill. It's muscle memory. Once you develop it then it's not even a conscious thing. At least not until lag kicks in and throws everything off for a few seconds, pulling you out of the zone

Justosay · 10:45AM

Sluggy wrote: »

Justosay wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Bar swapping quickly takes a lot of skill and practice. But it also takes quick reflexes, and not everyone has those.

It's funny... "Bar swapping quickly" depends on software and hardware. It's not a matter of skill, practice, or "reflexes".
And all these online PvP tricks have long been known.

I'm guessing you don't play any instruments? There's eighty-eight keys on most full sized pianos and I've seen people smash the majority of them faster, harder, and in more complicated patterns using more fingers than this game would ever require in the tightest of situations. The biggest factor after execution is of course lag. But lag only becomes the most significant factor AFTER that point. Are there macro users? Sure. But you don't need them. They aren't required. I wouldn't even call this skill. It's muscle memory. Once you develop it then it's not even a conscious thing. At least not until lag kicks in and throws everything off for a few seconds, pulling you out of the zone

The only slight difference is that the piano doesn't have a GCD... Is it possible to press keys faster? Sure, but that would simply overwrite your commands in the queue.
And "muscle memory" isn't what you think. It doesn't make you faster; it simply places a script/"anchor" in your brain. And any lag or even the position of your keyboard can disrupt it, creating a much longer pause to react to the situation.

Taarente · 1:14PM

I have no problem operating as a 1 bar ha sorcerer in cyrodiil and fairly successfully in imperial city. Reducing the cognitive load allows me to operate effectively. I’ve used a similar build in the night market too, very successfully. So two bars is not essential.

Vaqual · 3:28PM

Justosay wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Justosay wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Bar swapping quickly takes a lot of skill and practice. But it also takes quick reflexes, and not everyone has those.

It's funny... "Bar swapping quickly" depends on software and hardware. It's not a matter of skill, practice, or "reflexes".
And all these online PvP tricks have long been known.

I'm guessing you don't play any instruments? There's eighty-eight keys on most full sized pianos and I've seen people smash the majority of them faster, harder, and in more complicated patterns using more fingers than this game would ever require in the tightest of situations. The biggest factor after execution is of course lag. But lag only becomes the most significant factor AFTER that point. Are there macro users? Sure. But you don't need them. They aren't required. I wouldn't even call this skill. It's muscle memory. Once you develop it then it's not even a conscious thing. At least not until lag kicks in and throws everything off for a few seconds, pulling you out of the zone

The only slight difference is that the piano doesn't have a GCD... Is it possible to press keys faster? Sure, but that would simply overwrite your commands in the queue.
And "muscle memory" isn't what you think. It doesn't make you faster; it simply places a script/"anchor" in your brain. And any lag or even the position of your keyboard can disrupt it, creating a much longer pause to react to the situation.

You are overanalyzing the terminology here. If you get to the point were the stimulus "health bar low" connects to automated button presses for "heal" without consciously going through the pipeline of "remember/identify heal icon > derive key bind from UI > activate ability without erroneous input", that will already save monumental amounts of time. If you are lagging and your HP hasn't filled and you keep up your PvE parse rotation that is the consequence of training uninterrupted sequences. You can train bad habits, and video games are no exception to that. But if you have your stun break on the same spot across all games for years, your hands will learn to react to the stimulus "stun" almost without lag time or error.
That is why it helps to keep basic operations constant and only re-train combo executions.

Kalthea · 5:12PM

Not sure why the argument about the difference between skill and muscle memory is happening at all considering the definition of skill:

1a: the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance
1b: dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks
2: a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability

Skill is LITERALLY a practiced task. They're arguing about two sides of a coin, lol.

That aside, it CAN be practiced. Bar swapping in ESO needs to be timed well, similar to weaving. The input needs to be done between skills, and can feel clunky to people who are new to the meta style of play. And everyone seems very quick to forget that they were once in a similar situation as the OP, maybe not with this particular issue, but they definitely weren't proficient as soon as they started playing. We all have different learning speeds, let's keep that in mind.

erickhwk · 6:18PM

The beauty of this game lies in the fact that it is extremely accessible. Combat is easy to learn, but hard to master. ZOS even made it more accessible with Oakensoul if you don't have the skill (or the will) to keep bar-swapping.

To be honest, I used to be a hardcore player who hated Oakensoul's inclusion. God forbid more people are now able to do the content I sweated over to beat with a harder setup (lol). However, I recently put together a one-bar build for a hunter-themed archer, and I’m having a blast. It’s a perfect option for when you just want to relax, press fewer buttons, and still get the job done. Actually, I even beat my previous score record in vMA with this build, hitting over 600k.

Of course, you won't be as effective as someone who has mastered the game mechanics, but it's not supposed to be otherwise. People who invest time in perfecting their rotation should be rewarded. But if using two bars isn't your thing, that’s totally fine. You just have to be at peace with underperforming compared to 2-bar players, but it certainly doesn't mean you can't clear content.

Justosay · 6:32PM

Vaqual wrote: »

You are overanalyzing the terminology here. If you get to the point were the stimulus "health bar low" connects to automated button presses for "heal" without consciously going through the pipeline of "remember/identify heal icon > derive key bind from UI > activate ability without erroneous input", that will already save monumental amounts of time. If you are lagging and your HP hasn't filled and you keep up your PvE parse rotation that is the consequence of training uninterrupted sequences. You can train bad habits, and video games are no exception to that. But if you have your stun break on the same spot across all games for years, your hands will learn to react to the stimulus "stun" almost without lag time or error.
That is why it helps to keep basic operations constant and only re-train combo executions.

Was this an attempt to justify using words whose meaning you don't understand? Because it seems you still don't understand the difference between a conscious process and the process of training.
If you want to type a few letters on the keyboard, you simply press them. This is a conscious process that doesn't require any training (like using the "health button" when your health is low, or breaking a stun). But if you want to type with ten fingers, you need training, but this training is limited by the keyboard you're using. And any change related to the keyboard renders your training useless.

Justosay · 6:35PM

Kalthea wrote: »

Not sure why the argument about the difference between skill and muscle memory is happening at all

"Skill" and "muscle training" are two different things. It seems you're just another person who doesn't understand the terms used.
"Skill" is experience related to WHAT RESPONSE TO USE.
"Muscle training" is a MUSCULAR RESPONSE STRONGLY RELATED TO TRAINING.

Techwolf_Lupindo · 6:57PM

Sluggy wrote: »

I'm guessing you don't play any instruments? There's eighty-eight keys on most full sized pianos and I've seen people smash the majority of them faster, harder, and in more complicated patterns using more fingers than this game would ever require in the tightest of situations. The biggest factor after execution is of course lag. But lag only becomes the most significant factor AFTER that point. Are there macro users? Sure. But you don't need them. They aren't required. I wouldn't even call this skill. It's muscle memory. Once you develop it then it's not even a conscious thing. At least not until lag kicks in and throws everything off for a few seconds, pulling you out of the zone

That piano is still one bar. There is no swap bar key off to the side that needs to be hit many times to play a song. Image the keyboard is half size and the bar swap is off to the side. Try to image playing a song on that type of Piano where you have to swap every so often to play different notes on the same keys. Image trying to remember what bar you are on anytime during the song.