Dracane wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

if a Sorc doesn't want to fight a DK at melee range, there isn't much to be done about it.

Just wait, next patch all of the mediocre players will be whining and complaining about pure sorcs. DK meta was only ever going to be a thing for a few months.

Then I will tell them to slot and use Wings and look at how much those Sorcs can do. Complaining about Sorcs as a DK, who can mitigate 50% of their most important damage, is adventurous. And chains have a longer range than Streak and far lower a cost. I see many DKs use this to great effect to counter ranged classes on top of having 50% damage mitigation against half the skills in the game.

DK hard counters Sorc in every way, and Warden is right up there as well with Shimmering Shield being an even crazier version of wings (minus the 4 pieces of utility DK wings have) So once the Warden rework comes, Sorcs will have to compete with their 2 biggest hard counters, and there is nothing you can do unless the enemy DK or Warden somehow lags out and forgets to reapply their immortality button.

Where did you get that I was complaining? I'm just point out where sorc is stronger than a DK and that's in mobility. I love the sorc class. I've played many hours as a sorc in Cyro. I'm thrilled that it will be stronger with the class passives and even more thrilled for the coming class refresh. But sorc as a pure class is probably the least disadvantaged against a DK. That's why I see so many subclassed DKs who opt to run storm calling over earthen heart or draconic. Yes Wings is a good counter to a sorc's range damage but it's not practical to keep 100% uptime on that and expect to be offensive enough to beat a sorc. It's only 6 seconds so 100% uptime isn't sustainable unless the DK wants to just turtle defensively and stalemate. Offensively, the DK has to open up at some point. And if the sorc just wants to leave the fight or escape a group of pure DKs. There's no catching him. Chains might have a greater range than streak but a sorc can streak twice in a row. Suddenly out of range.

6 seconds is not difficult to upkeep. MagSorcs have been used to keeping up a 6 second timer (wards) for a decade. It is no problem to do so. And keeping up a skill that is as overloaded with effects as Wings, should be even easier. This is not a viable excuse to me. You can click this every 6-7 seconds and still have a large offensive window.

Just a heads-up, Sorc's shield often breaks before it even lasts 6 seconds. DK's Wings, on the other hand, can always last 6 seconds.
So..yes, DK's Wings for 6s is not difficult to upkeep, it's at least simpler than Sorc.

How is this even still up for debate? Instead let's have the "buff Pyrebrand" guy argue with the "739 Critical BGs Scoreboards" guy over whether Xylena should have god mode.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Pyrebrand cannot crit because it has a % scaling modifier.

I can't think of another example of a DoT that can't crit besides oblivion damage.

Any set with a % scaling modifier works like this. To list a few:

Pyrebrand; scales on how many dots the target has applied to them.

Plaguebreak; the explosion scales on how many targets are hit (neither the DoT nor the burst can crit, despite only the explosion scaling).

Maarselok; scales based on how many negative effects the target has on them

Zaan; each tick scales a % higher than the last

Vateshran Destruction Staff; each tick scales a % higher than the last


There are a few others I believe as well. This is the case because allowing the % scaling sets to crit would cause their damage to scale extremely high due to multiplicative interactions.

At this point they may as well get rid of Vate staff’s scaling and allow it to crit instead. The scaling is minimal anyway and not being able to crit really dampers its viability for PvE. Most PvPers use it because Ele Sus is strong, not because the proc is good.

s3dulo wrote: »

Where did you get that I was complaining? I'm just point out where sorc is stronger than a DK and that's in mobility. I love the sorc class. I've played many hours as a sorc in Cyro. I'm thrilled that it will be stronger with the class passives and even more thrilled for the coming class refresh. But sorc as a pure class is probably the least disadvantaged against a DK. That's why I see so many subclassed DKs who opt to run storm calling over earthen heart or draconic. Yes Wings is a good counter to a sorc's range damage but it's not practical to keep 100% uptime on that and expect to be offensive enough to beat a sorc. It's only 6 seconds so 100% uptime isn't sustainable unless the DK wants to just turtle defensively and stalemate. Offensively, the DK has to open up at some point. And if the sorc just wants to leave the fight or escape a group of pure DKs. There's no catching him. Chains might have a greater range than streak but a sorc can streak twice in a row. Suddenly out of range.

The bold is simply not true. Even before the DK rework I was running wings. I used the DK wings that shot the fireball out.

Even that version of Wings was op in the context of the current game because of how much damage reduction it provided, on top of the shielding I was running.

So it was a surprise to me that hadn't be lurking the PTS forum when the rework had wings get buffed even more. It really made no logical sense to me why they would change it.

Also, the flow of combat you describe about 6 seconds and 100% uptime makes no sense. Uptime on a given buff is dependent on the player's ability to understand which skills need prioritized and when. There is no universe someone taking ranged damage should be choosing any other buff besides the reducing ranged damage in PvP, if available esp. considering how little offensive buffs do alone.

In most contexts of an actual fight, offensive buffs mean nothing vs. defensive ones in this game. What matters more is stacking instances of damage, which Wings just happens to protect against with no limit for 6 seconds because most stacked instances of damage include ranged or DoT components (also mostly ranged).

Everyone here has been on live. Pretty sure that everyone here knows and understands that outside of a DK fighting itself, Wings can make a difference between you being bursted down or not because every other class is forced to run a ranged component to their damage in nearly every context.

Wings also provide a knock back in addition to lowering ranged damage, and giving expedition...

So reality is that it looks like this:

I. Wings shut down ranged builds, shut down DoT builds, shut down even gank builds. There's no real counter to this besides doing melee damage or somehow stacking more damage (not possible in some instances)

II. Melee is then countered by the CC that wings also provides, which happens to be a knock back providing protection against melee -- one of the worst CC types in the game due to how unresponsive break free is even with 20 ping.

III. All this on a class that can also provide a snare just by doing damage with a skill line that has some of the most damage in the entire game (traumatic burn)

Are we seeing how it's not balanced yet? Are we? Or do we need to keep going? If we do, don't blame me when ZOS realizes the skill is way too overloaded both in isolation and when looking at the class as a whole.

Future reworks likely will not provide any solution to the above. Only a nerf will and we all know it here.

acanca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Pyrebrand cannot crit because it has a % scaling modifier.

I can't think of another example of a DoT that can't crit besides oblivion damage.

Any set with a % scaling modifier works like this. To list a few:

Pyrebrand; scales on how many dots the target has applied to them.

Plaguebreak; the explosion scales on how many targets are hit (neither the DoT nor the burst can crit, despite only the explosion scaling).

Maarselok; scales based on how many negative effects the target has on them

Zaan; each tick scales a % higher than the last

Vateshran Destruction Staff; each tick scales a % higher than the last


There are a few others I believe as well. This is the case because allowing the % scaling sets to crit would cause their damage to scale extremely high due to multiplicative interactions.

Pyreburst might have a % scaling modifier but the actual light attack DoT does not. And the Pyreburst is pretty weak regardless.

Yes, but like Plaguebreak, since 1 portion has a scaling modifier, neither portion can crit.

A fully-charged heavy attack pyreburst with loads of DoTs is still weak and not worth doing. I've tried it a lot in PVP and it's weak and useless. That's what I'm asking for. Take a weak and useless aspect of a set and make it better. Let it crit. People acting like this would be game breaking. It will make an OK set a little stronger. I'm strongly in favor of making sets more useful and remove them from the vast pile of mediocre to absolutely useless sets.

Honestly weird to see pushback against that. Name your favorite class.....I'm in favor of buffing all class sets related to that class because 1. I'm not afraid to compete against it 2. More variety and options are better.

As long as things are still competitive, it's not a problem.

lots of dots? didnt they change it to stack with

Luneca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Where did you get that I was complaining? I'm just point out where sorc is stronger than a DK and that's in mobility. I love the sorc class. I've played many hours as a sorc in Cyro. I'm thrilled that it will be stronger with the class passives and even more thrilled for the coming class refresh. But sorc as a pure class is probably the least disadvantaged against a DK. That's why I see so many subclassed DKs who opt to run storm calling over earthen heart or draconic. Yes Wings is a good counter to a sorc's range damage but it's not practical to keep 100% uptime on that and expect to be offensive enough to beat a sorc. It's only 6 seconds so 100% uptime isn't sustainable unless the DK wants to just turtle defensively and stalemate. Offensively, the DK has to open up at some point. And if the sorc just wants to leave the fight or escape a group of pure DKs. There's no catching him. Chains might have a greater range than streak but a sorc can streak twice in a row. Suddenly out of range.

The bold is simply not true. Even before the DK rework I was running wings. I used the DK wings that shot the fireball out.

Even that version of Wings was op in the context of the current game because of how much damage reduction it provided, on top of the shielding I was running.

So it was a surprise to me that hadn't be lurking the PTS forum when the rework had wings get buffed even more. It really made no logical sense to me why they would change it.

Also, the flow of combat you describe about 6 seconds and 100% uptime makes no sense. Uptime on a given buff is dependent on the player's ability to understand which skills need prioritized and when. There is no universe someone taking ranged damage should be choosing any other buff besides the reducing ranged damage in PvP, if available esp. considering how little offensive buffs do alone.

In most contexts of an actual fight, offensive buffs mean nothing vs. defensive ones in this game. What matters more is stacking instances of damage, which Wings just happens to protect against with no limit for 6 seconds because most stacked instances of damage include ranged or DoT components (also mostly ranged).

Everyone here has been on live. Pretty sure that everyone here knows and understands that outside of a DK fighting itself, Wings can make a difference between you being bursted down or not because every other class is forced to run a ranged component to their damage in nearly every context.

Wings also provide a knock back in addition to lowering ranged damage, and giving expedition...

So reality is that it looks like this:

I. Wings shut down ranged builds, shut down DoT builds, shut down even gank builds. There's no real counter to this besides doing melee damage or somehow stacking more damage (not possible in some instances)

II. Melee is then countered by the CC that wings also provides, which happens to be a knock back providing protection against melee -- one of the worst CC types in the game due to how unresponsive break free is even with 20 ping.

III. All this on a class that can also provide a snare just by doing damage with a skill line that has some of the most damage in the entire game (traumatic burn)

Are we seeing how it's not balanced yet? Are we? Or do we need to keep going? If we do, don't blame me when ZOS realizes the skill is way too overloaded both in isolation and when looking at the class as a whole.

Future reworks likely will not provide any solution to the above. Only a nerf will and we all know it here.

Not to disagree with you because i agree that wings is one of the most insanely overloaded and situationally broken skills in the game but wings doesnt actually cut ranged damage in half, it cuts projectile damage in half which can be devastating or completely not do anything depending on the ranged build. The popular crushing shock build being run atm for example with crystal weapon, signet, crushing shock, treatise etc shouldnt be affected at all because none of these things is a projectile. A normal bow ganker with something like snipe + bow proc though would see their damage neutered.
I also dont think it counters melee, hell it can be a detriment to use it in melee cause you cant then fossilize some one, though its a great get off me tool when swarmed.

Crushing shock IS a projectile.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Pyrebrand cannot crit because it has a % scaling modifier.

I can't think of another example of a DoT that can't crit besides oblivion damage.

Any set with a % scaling modifier works like this. To list a few:

Pyrebrand; scales on how many dots the target has applied to them.

Plaguebreak; the explosion scales on how many targets are hit (neither the DoT nor the burst can crit, despite only the explosion scaling).

Maarselok; scales based on how many negative effects the target has on them

Zaan; each tick scales a % higher than the last

Vateshran Destruction Staff; each tick scales a % higher than the last


There are a few others I believe as well. This is the case because allowing the % scaling sets to crit would cause their damage to scale extremely high due to multiplicative interactions.

Pyreburst might have a % scaling modifier but the actual light attack DoT does not. And the Pyreburst is pretty weak regardless.

Yes, but like Plaguebreak, since 1 portion has a scaling modifier, neither portion can crit.

A fully-charged heavy attack pyreburst with loads of DoTs is still weak and not worth doing. I've tried it a lot in PVP and it's weak and useless. That's what I'm asking for. Take a weak and useless aspect of a set and make it better. Let it crit. People acting like this would be game breaking. It will make an OK set a little stronger. I'm strongly in favor of making sets more useful and remove them from the vast pile of mediocre to absolutely useless sets.

Honestly weird to see pushback against that. Name your favorite class.....I'm in favor of buffing all class sets related to that class because 1. I'm not afraid to compete against it 2. More variety and options are better.

As long as things are still competitive, it's not a problem.

lots of dots? didnt they change it to stack with

Luneca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Where did you get that I was complaining? I'm just point out where sorc is stronger than a DK and that's in mobility. I love the sorc class. I've played many hours as a sorc in Cyro. I'm thrilled that it will be stronger with the class passives and even more thrilled for the coming class refresh. But sorc as a pure class is probably the least disadvantaged against a DK. That's why I see so many subclassed DKs who opt to run storm calling over earthen heart or draconic. Yes Wings is a good counter to a sorc's range damage but it's not practical to keep 100% uptime on that and expect to be offensive enough to beat a sorc. It's only 6 seconds so 100% uptime isn't sustainable unless the DK wants to just turtle defensively and stalemate. Offensively, the DK has to open up at some point. And if the sorc just wants to leave the fight or escape a group of pure DKs. There's no catching him. Chains might have a greater range than streak but a sorc can streak twice in a row. Suddenly out of range.

The bold is simply not true. Even before the DK rework I was running wings. I used the DK wings that shot the fireball out.

Even that version of Wings was op in the context of the current game because of how much damage reduction it provided, on top of the shielding I was running.

So it was a surprise to me that hadn't be lurking the PTS forum when the rework had wings get buffed even more. It really made no logical sense to me why they would change it.

Also, the flow of combat you describe about 6 seconds and 100% uptime makes no sense. Uptime on a given buff is dependent on the player's ability to understand which skills need prioritized and when. There is no universe someone taking ranged damage should be choosing any other buff besides the reducing ranged damage in PvP, if available esp. considering how little offensive buffs do alone.

In most contexts of an actual fight, offensive buffs mean nothing vs. defensive ones in this game. What matters more is stacking instances of damage, which Wings just happens to protect against with no limit for 6 seconds because most stacked instances of damage include ranged or DoT components (also mostly ranged).

Everyone here has been on live. Pretty sure that everyone here knows and understands that outside of a DK fighting itself, Wings can make a difference between you being bursted down or not because every other class is forced to run a ranged component to their damage in nearly every context.

Wings also provide a knock back in addition to lowering ranged damage, and giving expedition...

So reality is that it looks like this:

I. Wings shut down ranged builds, shut down DoT builds, shut down even gank builds. There's no real counter to this besides doing melee damage or somehow stacking more damage (not possible in some instances)

II. Melee is then countered by the CC that wings also provides, which happens to be a knock back providing protection against melee -- one of the worst CC types in the game due to how unresponsive break free is even with 20 ping.

III. All this on a class that can also provide a snare just by doing damage with a skill line that has some of the most damage in the entire game (traumatic burn)

Are we seeing how it's not balanced yet? Are we? Or do we need to keep going? If we do, don't blame me when ZOS realizes the skill is way too overloaded both in isolation and when looking at the class as a whole.

Future reworks likely will not provide any solution to the above. Only a nerf will and we all know it here.

Not to disagree with you because i agree that wings is one of the most insanely overloaded and situationally broken skills in the game but wings doesnt actually cut ranged damage in half, it cuts projectile damage in half which can be devastating or completely not do anything depending on the ranged build. The popular crushing shock build being run atm for example with crystal weapon, signet, crushing shock, treatise etc shouldnt be affected at all because none of these things is a projectile. A normal bow ganker with something like snipe + bow proc though would see their damage neutered.
I also dont think it counters melee, hell it can be a detriment to use it in melee cause you cant then fossilize some one, though its a great get off me tool when swarmed.

Crushing shock IS a projectile.

liesssssssssssssssssssss. The status effects are what 'aren't a projectile'. The meta meta has them running basically more damage from the status effects than crushing shock itself.

The comment listed a few things including Crushing Shock and said "none of these things is a projectile". That is incorrect, as Crushing Shock is a projectile.

Point out the lie in the statement "Crushing Shock is a projectile".

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Pyrebrand cannot crit because it has a % scaling modifier.

I can't think of another example of a DoT that can't crit besides oblivion damage.

Any set with a % scaling modifier works like this. To list a few:

Pyrebrand; scales on how many dots the target has applied to them.

Plaguebreak; the explosion scales on how many targets are hit (neither the DoT nor the burst can crit, despite only the explosion scaling).

Maarselok; scales based on how many negative effects the target has on them

Zaan; each tick scales a % higher than the last

Vateshran Destruction Staff; each tick scales a % higher than the last


There are a few others I believe as well. This is the case because allowing the % scaling sets to crit would cause their damage to scale extremely high due to multiplicative interactions.

Pyreburst might have a % scaling modifier but the actual light attack DoT does not. And the Pyreburst is pretty weak regardless.

Yes, but like Plaguebreak, since 1 portion has a scaling modifier, neither portion can crit.

A fully-charged heavy attack pyreburst with loads of DoTs is still weak and not worth doing. I've tried it a lot in PVP and it's weak and useless. That's what I'm asking for. Take a weak and useless aspect of a set and make it better. Let it crit. People acting like this would be game breaking. It will make an OK set a little stronger. I'm strongly in favor of making sets more useful and remove them from the vast pile of mediocre to absolutely useless sets.

Honestly weird to see pushback against that. Name your favorite class.....I'm in favor of buffing all class sets related to that class because 1. I'm not afraid to compete against it 2. More variety and options are better.

As long as things are still competitive, it's not a problem.

lots of dots? didnt they change it to stack with

Luneca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Where did you get that I was complaining? I'm just point out where sorc is stronger than a DK and that's in mobility. I love the sorc class. I've played many hours as a sorc in Cyro. I'm thrilled that it will be stronger with the class passives and even more thrilled for the coming class refresh. But sorc as a pure class is probably the least disadvantaged against a DK. That's why I see so many subclassed DKs who opt to run storm calling over earthen heart or draconic. Yes Wings is a good counter to a sorc's range damage but it's not practical to keep 100% uptime on that and expect to be offensive enough to beat a sorc. It's only 6 seconds so 100% uptime isn't sustainable unless the DK wants to just turtle defensively and stalemate. Offensively, the DK has to open up at some point. And if the sorc just wants to leave the fight or escape a group of pure DKs. There's no catching him. Chains might have a greater range than streak but a sorc can streak twice in a row. Suddenly out of range.

The bold is simply not true. Even before the DK rework I was running wings. I used the DK wings that shot the fireball out.

Even that version of Wings was op in the context of the current game because of how much damage reduction it provided, on top of the shielding I was running.

So it was a surprise to me that hadn't be lurking the PTS forum when the rework had wings get buffed even more. It really made no logical sense to me why they would change it.

Also, the flow of combat you describe about 6 seconds and 100% uptime makes no sense. Uptime on a given buff is dependent on the player's ability to understand which skills need prioritized and when. There is no universe someone taking ranged damage should be choosing any other buff besides the reducing ranged damage in PvP, if available esp. considering how little offensive buffs do alone.

In most contexts of an actual fight, offensive buffs mean nothing vs. defensive ones in this game. What matters more is stacking instances of damage, which Wings just happens to protect against with no limit for 6 seconds because most stacked instances of damage include ranged or DoT components (also mostly ranged).

Everyone here has been on live. Pretty sure that everyone here knows and understands that outside of a DK fighting itself, Wings can make a difference between you being bursted down or not because every other class is forced to run a ranged component to their damage in nearly every context.

Wings also provide a knock back in addition to lowering ranged damage, and giving expedition...

So reality is that it looks like this:

I. Wings shut down ranged builds, shut down DoT builds, shut down even gank builds. There's no real counter to this besides doing melee damage or somehow stacking more damage (not possible in some instances)

II. Melee is then countered by the CC that wings also provides, which happens to be a knock back providing protection against melee -- one of the worst CC types in the game due to how unresponsive break free is even with 20 ping.

III. All this on a class that can also provide a snare just by doing damage with a skill line that has some of the most damage in the entire game (traumatic burn)

Are we seeing how it's not balanced yet? Are we? Or do we need to keep going? If we do, don't blame me when ZOS realizes the skill is way too overloaded both in isolation and when looking at the class as a whole.

Future reworks likely will not provide any solution to the above. Only a nerf will and we all know it here.

Not to disagree with you because i agree that wings is one of the most insanely overloaded and situationally broken skills in the game but wings doesnt actually cut ranged damage in half, it cuts projectile damage in half which can be devastating or completely not do anything depending on the ranged build. The popular crushing shock build being run atm for example with crystal weapon, signet, crushing shock, treatise etc shouldnt be affected at all because none of these things is a projectile. A normal bow ganker with something like snipe + bow proc though would see their damage neutered.
I also dont think it counters melee, hell it can be a detriment to use it in melee cause you cant then fossilize some one, though its a great get off me tool when swarmed.

Crushing shock IS a projectile.

liesssssssssssssssssssss. The status effects are what 'aren't a projectile'. The meta meta has them running basically more damage from the status effects than crushing shock itself.

The comment listed a few things including Crushing Shock and said "none of these things is a projectile". That is incorrect, as Crushing Shock is a projectile.

Point out the lie in the statement "Crushing Shock is a projectile".

They’re just being dramatic. Look at everything they lump it in with, the forums here complaining open ‘force pulse builds’, and common sense to determine what they clearly mean for that (status effects not being negated at all)

The comment stated "none of these things is a projectile".

That's not being dramatic. The point would have been just as salient if they had said "out of all of that, only crushing shock is a projectile".

I was just trying to point out a common misconception that I have seen before and got called a liar for it. I was not lying; Crushing Shock IS a projectile.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Pyrebrand cannot crit because it has a % scaling modifier.

I can't think of another example of a DoT that can't crit besides oblivion damage.

Any set with a % scaling modifier works like this. To list a few:

Pyrebrand; scales on how many dots the target has applied to them.

Plaguebreak; the explosion scales on how many targets are hit (neither the DoT nor the burst can crit, despite only the explosion scaling).

Maarselok; scales based on how many negative effects the target has on them

Zaan; each tick scales a % higher than the last

Vateshran Destruction Staff; each tick scales a % higher than the last


There are a few others I believe as well. This is the case because allowing the % scaling sets to crit would cause their damage to scale extremely high due to multiplicative interactions.

Pyreburst might have a % scaling modifier but the actual light attack DoT does not. And the Pyreburst is pretty weak regardless.

Yes, but like Plaguebreak, since 1 portion has a scaling modifier, neither portion can crit.

A fully-charged heavy attack pyreburst with loads of DoTs is still weak and not worth doing. I've tried it a lot in PVP and it's weak and useless. That's what I'm asking for. Take a weak and useless aspect of a set and make it better. Let it crit. People acting like this would be game breaking. It will make an OK set a little stronger. I'm strongly in favor of making sets more useful and remove them from the vast pile of mediocre to absolutely useless sets.

Honestly weird to see pushback against that. Name your favorite class.....I'm in favor of buffing all class sets related to that class because 1. I'm not afraid to compete against it 2. More variety and options are better.

As long as things are still competitive, it's not a problem.

lots of dots? didnt they change it to stack with

Luneca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Where did you get that I was complaining? I'm just point out where sorc is stronger than a DK and that's in mobility. I love the sorc class. I've played many hours as a sorc in Cyro. I'm thrilled that it will be stronger with the class passives and even more thrilled for the coming class refresh. But sorc as a pure class is probably the least disadvantaged against a DK. That's why I see so many subclassed DKs who opt to run storm calling over earthen heart or draconic. Yes Wings is a good counter to a sorc's range damage but it's not practical to keep 100% uptime on that and expect to be offensive enough to beat a sorc. It's only 6 seconds so 100% uptime isn't sustainable unless the DK wants to just turtle defensively and stalemate. Offensively, the DK has to open up at some point. And if the sorc just wants to leave the fight or escape a group of pure DKs. There's no catching him. Chains might have a greater range than streak but a sorc can streak twice in a row. Suddenly out of range.

The bold is simply not true. Even before the DK rework I was running wings. I used the DK wings that shot the fireball out.

Even that version of Wings was op in the context of the current game because of how much damage reduction it provided, on top of the shielding I was running.

So it was a surprise to me that hadn't be lurking the PTS forum when the rework had wings get buffed even more. It really made no logical sense to me why they would change it.

Also, the flow of combat you describe about 6 seconds and 100% uptime makes no sense. Uptime on a given buff is dependent on the player's ability to understand which skills need prioritized and when. There is no universe someone taking ranged damage should be choosing any other buff besides the reducing ranged damage in PvP, if available esp. considering how little offensive buffs do alone.

In most contexts of an actual fight, offensive buffs mean nothing vs. defensive ones in this game. What matters more is stacking instances of damage, which Wings just happens to protect against with no limit for 6 seconds because most stacked instances of damage include ranged or DoT components (also mostly ranged).

Everyone here has been on live. Pretty sure that everyone here knows and understands that outside of a DK fighting itself, Wings can make a difference between you being bursted down or not because every other class is forced to run a ranged component to their damage in nearly every context.

Wings also provide a knock back in addition to lowering ranged damage, and giving expedition...

So reality is that it looks like this:

I. Wings shut down ranged builds, shut down DoT builds, shut down even gank builds. There's no real counter to this besides doing melee damage or somehow stacking more damage (not possible in some instances)

II. Melee is then countered by the CC that wings also provides, which happens to be a knock back providing protection against melee -- one of the worst CC types in the game due to how unresponsive break free is even with 20 ping.

III. All this on a class that can also provide a snare just by doing damage with a skill line that has some of the most damage in the entire game (traumatic burn)

Are we seeing how it's not balanced yet? Are we? Or do we need to keep going? If we do, don't blame me when ZOS realizes the skill is way too overloaded both in isolation and when looking at the class as a whole.

Future reworks likely will not provide any solution to the above. Only a nerf will and we all know it here.

Not to disagree with you because i agree that wings is one of the most insanely overloaded and situationally broken skills in the game but wings doesnt actually cut ranged damage in half, it cuts projectile damage in half which can be devastating or completely not do anything depending on the ranged build. The popular crushing shock build being run atm for example with crystal weapon, signet, crushing shock, treatise etc shouldnt be affected at all because none of these things is a projectile. A normal bow ganker with something like snipe + bow proc though would see their damage neutered.
I also dont think it counters melee, hell it can be a detriment to use it in melee cause you cant then fossilize some one, though its a great get off me tool when swarmed.

Crushing shock IS a projectile.

liesssssssssssssssssssss. The status effects are what 'aren't a projectile'. The meta meta has them running basically more damage from the status effects than crushing shock itself.

The comment listed a few things including Crushing Shock and said "none of these things is a projectile". That is incorrect, as Crushing Shock is a projectile.

Point out the lie in the statement "Crushing Shock is a projectile".

They’re just being dramatic. Look at everything they lump it in with, the forums here complaining open ‘force pulse builds’, and common sense to determine what they clearly mean for that (status effects not being negated at all)

The comment stated "none of these things is a projectile".

That's not being dramatic. The point would have been just as salient if they had said "out of all of that, only crushing shock is a projectile".

I was just trying to point out a common misconception that I have seen before and got called a liar for it. I was not lying; Crushing Shock IS a projectile.

We have the ability to rationalize here.

Let's break it down, shall we?

crystal weapon (not a projectile, but frequently proc'd with a range LA which is), signet (proc'ing status effects that are not negated by wings regardless of source), crushing shock (they place it DIRECTLY after signet... I wonder why???)... its not a projectile treatise (another item that can proc off ranged class attacks... but isn't negated by wings).

You're like that Redditor that comes in to say *your *you're to a valid post. It doesn't remove the intent/actual meaning of the post for the other 95-99% of individuals that have no issue comprehending or reading between the mistakes.

Dude, I am trying to be specific and factual because it is important to do so when you see tons of misinformation and misconceptions about PvP in this game.

Crushing shock is a projectile. I have seen many many comments suggesting otherwise in the past, even all the way back when wings REFLECTED projectiles. Many people see the fact that it is essentially a laser beam and assume that means it is not a projectile. It's important to distinguish these things.

I never said Signet wasn't OP, or that Wings isn't bad against that rotation. Everything else in the comment I replied to is factual and nowhere in my comment did I suggest it wasn't.

You came in and called me a liar then insulted me for trying to inform others. Take a chill pill.