Werewolf thoughts v12.0.3

dark_hunterxmg · May 6

Werewolf isn't substantially different than day 1 of PTS. Very little seems to have been changed aside from a few number nerfs. I was under the impression that we were supposed to be giving feedback so that it could be changed and improved along the way. It seems that the near-final product is what was presented from day 1. There have been a number of Werewolf mains that have given good solid feedback on changes to this playstyle. It seems to have gone largely unheard.
Here is more unsolicited feedback from a pvp Werewolf main:

-Werewolf is clunky feeling. However "strong" it supposedly is, if it isn't smooth, it isn't fun.
-Werewolf is slow. It needs to be faster and not have the same speed cap as human players. Speed buffs mean nothing if it is already at cap and it still subject to any and all snares.
-Pounce is still bugged and is casting within melee range regularly. Casting within melee range means I did not apply the Carnage that I intended. Please combine pounce and Carnage into a single cast. Increase the range of this skill as well since it is highly subject to position desync and not casting when it should.
-The cast time on Roar needs to go. It is far to easy to override with light attack or Bash. If it needs a delay, add it to the impact like you did with Fossilize.
-Hircine's Fortitude should have better scaling. Why do I have to run 50k health to have a burst heal that is 30% less than my live character? It still needs a HoT and Cross Heal mechanic.
-Rip and Tear has very little immediate damage impact. It has to be spammed over and over again to whittle at a health bar. Additionally, the heal is more useful than the burst heal. Lower this value and move it to the burst where it belongs. The healing kit relies too heavily on Rip and Tear.
-Still not going to use Bloody Gnash unless Hircine's Fortitude gets better. Give us a better reason to use it aside from nerfing the other morph.
-"DoT" timers; 1s, 6s, and 12s. None of these are standard numbers. Why are we getting all weird about it? Can we even call a 1s timer a dot? If we're also supposed to rely on Blood Claws for healing 6s is not acceptable. These dots should be standard values. No need to reinvent the wheel.
-The loss of 33% faster heavy attacks is a substantial nerf from live. A whole playstyle was removed with this change.
-Werewolf is far too intertwined with class mastery. Any inevitable change to a class mastery will be indirectly affecting Werewolves. I think we should stay out of it, but not without compensation.
-Werewolf continues to not have weapon passives. How long do we have to wait to get these?

I still have questions that the team really should answer: @ZOS_JessicaFolsom what does "...without completely overpowering the meta in PVP" mean to the team? Is the intention of the team to make sure that Werewolf cannot be competitive with the meta? Have we seen werewolf overpowering the meta across the board?

Wuuffyy · May 6

In b4 the obligatory:

-but werewolf is one bar, rework or not it ‘shouldn’t come close to my super hard to execute beam spec in PvE or my DK with 3 burst moves and Pyrebrand in PvP’.

-here’s a 10k PvP parse (running Signet and Warden class masteries; the status effects themselves are gapping the damage in the entire kit by a longshot)

-here’s a 100k parse ‘I did with 50k health’ (It’s running Signet and Serpent’s and we’re acting like having allocated those points away from stam made THAT much of a difference with those sets)

‘GOSH, you werewolf players are always asking for BUFFS’ ignoring the fact you said things like:

-“Lower this value and move it to the burst where it belongs. The healing kit relies too heavily on Rip and Tear.”

Wuuffyy · May 6

Oh, and I forgot to say but it’s pretty obvious 12. 0. 4 is highly likely to read like nerf, nerf, nerf, oh no wait! here’s a bu— NERF, and another nerf. Prepare thyself

xylena · May 6

you forgot "thread derailed by Wuufy's incorerent rambling"

anyway OP had a good point about kinesthetics vs power

Wuuffyy · May 6

xylena wrote: »

you forgot "thread derailed by Wuufy's incorerent rambling"

anyway OP had a good point about kinesthetics vs power

Thank you! I always forget a thing or two and I appreciate you having me covered @xylena

I’m holding out hope that we can get minor resolve for the morph of Hircine’s howl that heals for nothing and makes you take up to 12% increased damage for up to 20 seconds (in b4: but it also gives you proportional damage)

dark_hunterxmg · May 6

xylena wrote: »

you forgot "thread derailed by Wuufy's incorerent rambling"

anyway OP had a good point about kinesthetics vs power

Live Werewolf just feels better to me. I enjoy it much more.

Wuuffyy · May 6

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

you forgot "thread derailed by Wuufy's incorerent rambling"

anyway OP had a good point about kinesthetics vs power

Live Werewolf just feels better to me. I enjoy it much more.

I LOVE the animations and form sustain out of combat (looking at you Cyro)… then it just kinda starts to go down hill from there.

Anything decent we have like some good ST DPS or rip and tear heal will clearly be nerfed thanks to constant nerf-calling either by next week and/or 1-2 live cycles.

(and again, for the record, I think damage masteries and Signet are super unhealthy and should be removed… but the entire kit outside of HPS-while-attacking has been nerfed by about 20-30% across the board)

xylena · May 6

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Live Werewolf just feels better to me. I enjoy it much more.

I feel similar towards old DK, which was weaker and had some jank animation, but kinesthetically felt better than the new powerful streamlined fantasy pyromancer. Being able to go full blue flame kinda somewhat makes up for it (WTB blue version of Molten Weapons, Cooled).

Radiate77 · May 6

xylena wrote: »

you forgot "thread derailed by Wuufy's incorerent rambling"

anyway OP had a good point about kinesthetics vs power

He’s obviously passionate about the topic, what’s with the hostility?

I’d be pretty worked up too if there was a click of about 3-5 people actively trying to bury my roleplay, skewing numbers through exploits and skewed interactions to get my “class” nerfed instead of the actual problem, and then doing a victory dance over Werewolf mains with a character name like…

“werewolf nerfed lmao”

Radiate77 · May 6

^That said; OP has some great feedback.

Fun has to be at the head of any rework, and if Werewolf feels clunky now; that really sucks and I hope they can look into that for you.

Arunei · May 6

You forgot to add that for Berserker form, it's too hard to maintain in longer fights without things to Devour unless you go into battles with 3-400 Ult so you have time to hit Rampage (and even then after that first time you might not be able to keep getting enough Fury to keep hitting it).

They really should either increase how much Fury you generate, reduce how much you need to pop Rampage, or lower how much Ult it takes to be in WW form. Or maybe some combo of those things. I'd done math in another thread showing how little Fury you get in 10 seconds but idr which thread it was in lol.

dark_hunterxmg · May 6

Arunei wrote: »

You forgot to add that for Berserker form, it's too hard to maintain in longer fights without things to Devour unless you go into battles with 3-400 Ult so you have time to hit Rampage (and even then after that first time you might not be able to keep getting enough Fury to keep hitting it).

They really should either increase how much Fury you generate, reduce how much you need to pop Rampage, or lower how much Ult it takes to be in WW form. Or maybe some combo of those things. I'd done math in another thread showing how little Fury you get in 10 seconds but idr which thread it was in lol.

I agree. Unless you're in a group with other Werewolves, you're going to struggle to maintain form on Berserker. It got a little easier since day 1, but it's still a struggle.

Arunei · May 6

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

You forgot to add that for Berserker form, it's too hard to maintain in longer fights without things to Devour unless you go into battles with 3-400 Ult so you have time to hit Rampage (and even then after that first time you might not be able to keep getting enough Fury to keep hitting it).

They really should either increase how much Fury you generate, reduce how much you need to pop Rampage, or lower how much Ult it takes to be in WW form. Or maybe some combo of those things. I'd done math in another thread showing how little Fury you get in 10 seconds but idr which thread it was in lol.

I agree. Unless you're in a group with other Werewolves, you're going to struggle to maintain form on Berserker. It got a little easier since day 1, but it's still a struggle.

I haven't noticed it get any easier after the change they did myself. If anything it somehow feels like I'm losing my Berserker form even MORE than I was before the change.

autocookies · May 6

I would still like the werewolf form to be somewhat more sustainable without relying on Fury. I understand that the Pack Leader morph is intended to address this, but it still requires you to stay glued to your target or scramble for corpses, even with that morph active.

I’m concerned that newer or less experienced werewolf players will be affected the most by this, which is disappointing.

dark_hunterxmg · May 6

autocookies wrote: »

I would still like the werewolf form to be somewhat more sustainable without relying on Fury. I understand that the Pack Leader morph is intended to address this, but it still requires you to stay glued to your target or scramble for corpses, even with that morph active.

I’m concerned that newer or less experienced werewolf players will be affected the most by this, which is disappointing.

Yes, sustaining form can be difficult to manage even for an experienced Werewolf player in some situations. If a new player isn't prepared to manage it, they're not going to have a good time.