Concerns About ESO’s Future Direction and Solo Player Experience

Bguk · May 6

This thread could be hard to follow with some comments having been removed, leaving other posts without context.

I mentioned this in another thread. The most likely reason the [snip] Market has only one difficulty (for now) is the leaderboard. If multiple difficulties were available, they would need different leaderboards for each difficulty.

Hard to do? Probably not, yet this is the first iteration of the Market. We all don't know what changes they may or may not do.

@Athory You game yourself away with this sentence, "They created a unique Hardcore‑only mode that forces players to group each other just to make it easier.
This [snip] Market, with this one Hardcore‑only mode, only becomes manageable if you group up."

In other words you want it easier than what it is, not that you can't solo it. Either you mean this or your AI is not processing correct, to which I would recommend you not use AI.

dcrush · May 6

shadoza wrote: »

dcrush wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

sleepy_worm wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

The group finder doesn't function because players don't use it.

This is not true. Group Finder groups for trials regularly fill. Group Finder groups for Night Market fill within 60 seconds.

shadoza wrote: »

The Night Market is forced group content. (Forced because it is NOT doable solo.)

This is also not true. You can teleport to someone in a busy instance if you want to zerg. Unless you meant multi-player content, as you would be following around other players. If you meant multi-player content, I agree that is what it is.

shadoza wrote: »

Without the CP points and the dungeon gears, a player does not have a chance at participating.

And this is absolutely not true. I have been playing with CP 100 or level 12 characters quite often. They are very clearly participating.

If a player does not have CP close to cap and dungeon gear they are not going to live long. Maybe they can survive if they follow a large group and pretend to participate. But they will not be working the Night Market without CP and dungeon gear. (include dungeon pots with gear)

The reality is that there is a huge gap between players that dungeon and players that don't. That gap is caused by power creeps that are generated by dungeon gear, pots, special items.

This is simply not true. I actually started a new account because I wanted loot from all factions. Did the wailing prison intro quest and went straight into the NM at level 3. No CP. I followed groups around, spammed shields, dodge rolled aoes, revived players, got some damage in and looted bosses to get complete gear sets. Right now my character is level 13, decked out in Briarheart and Plague Doctor gear from the event and has all the house wings unlocked. It’s really not so much a question of gear and level but more knowing what to do. Did I die a lot? Absolutely. But dying is not failure. It’s only a failure if the skirmish or boss resets because a whole group wiped.

There’s also no such thing as “dungeon pots”.

I think the key words there are "I followed groups around." You did not play the Night Market, you just picked up the leftovers. Which is what I meant when I said, "Maybe they can survive if they follow a large group and pretend to participate."

Play what ever way makes you feel good. I care not.
Denial does not make the issue go away. It just doesn't.

Which issue are we talking about here?

This one?

Minnesinger · May 6

Lets go for the best thing to all those who are entering NM. There are absolutely no gear or champion point requirements in groups. If you are new or like me occassional pve player there is someome who takes you in group. I have never ever really felt being part of the pve player base. Pvp has been my thing.

I have no idea of who these hard core solo players are who complain here. Where are they usually?

Bguk · May 6

Minnesinger wrote: »

Lets go for the best thing to all those who are entering NM. There are absolutely no gear or champion point requirements in groups. If you are new or like me occassional pve player there is someome who takes you in group. I have never ever really felt being part of the pve player base. Pvp has been my thing.

I have no idea of who these hard core solo players are who complain here. Where are they usually?

They want to go in solo and complete all content in the Market. Solo meaning just their one character. Not following a group, not having a companion (I could be wrong), no other player or npc assisting them in any way.

Psyphiman · May 6

Personally, I don't feel used when I group up with players. I feel like I'm doing something fun with other players. I love that there is no pressure. Most of the time when we kill a boss folks are high-fiving each other.

The Night Market may be creating some division on the forums, but it is bringing players together in the game. I'll take the latter.

Cominfordatoothbrush · May 6

The comparison between actual "hardcore" content or trials and night market breaks down pretty quickly when something like vrg hm is brought into the conversation. NM may be a rude awakening for players that have never really played content harder than overland, but in a solo build you can get much further here than in vrg hm. Most bosses are soloable, while vrg hm is not. New training teams struggle for weeks or months practicing until they can kill bahsei. Forget the tri, I mean just to kill her. Of course, you have dedicated tank roles in vRG, so for a dps the difficulty comes from mechs rather than incoming damage. Meanwhile it's very possible and even a fun time being able to clear skirmishes with complete randos.

frogthroat · May 6

Cominfordatoothbrush wrote: »

vrg hm is not. New training teams struggle for weeks or months practicing until they can kill bahsei. Forget the tri, I mean just to kill her. Meanwhile it's very possible and even a fun time being able to clear skirmishes with complete randos

Can confirm. In one of my guilds we are clearing all the trial HMs. Last one was SS. Just the HM clear, no trifecta. Lokke is slightly demanding. We got the clear last Saturday, but the clear didn't happen overnight.

AlterBlika · May 6

ESO is super solo-friendly. It just depends whether you play casually or you do know how to play the game

twisttop138 · May 6

frogthroat wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

some of our event/ event zone content will be focused on encouraging group play

This content does not encourage group play, it enforces group play.

Encouraging involves inspiring, which can be done through providing benefits. Enforcing involves force, which can be pushing or by removing other options.

To give an example, consider Heresy of Ignorance. Strange Obelisks are scattered across the map, and you need to disrupt 3 of them and kill the boss. When in a group, you get credit for every Strange Obelisk any member of your group disrupts. This encourages group play because the quest is done more quickly in a group. If 3 Strange Obelisks had to be disrupted within 1 minute, it would be unfeasible for a solo player to do it, and thus this would enforce group play.

Likewise, Night Market does not encourage group play to gain the benefits of faster and smoother progress, it enforces group play by making progress unfeasible for solo play.

You can still participate and do some stuff solo, even without fighting. I tested it myself for fun, a thief character can do races, loot hidden chests/heavy sacks (the ones that are counting towards pursuit) and all these "find missing persons/relics/etc" things. And of course, the big prize - Night's Den house - is unlocked automatically. You can also opportunistically join any boss fights and skirmishes.
That is actually more solo content compared to a typical Q1 dlc dungeon pack.

Can you reach 5000 reputation solo ?
We don't get credit for 1000 or 2000 or 3000. It's 5000 or you get Nothing.

Yes. Easily. I have been grouping mainly for the bosses and skirmishes. Otherwise mostly solo. My most favour comes from solo.

Each daily is 75.
Each zone quest is 40.
Each boss is between 5 and 15, or something like that, too little for me to care.

You get most of your favour from solo things.

I have a tad under 12k favour and I would say 10k is from solo stuff. A Brazen boss is worth the same as the blue ball you occasionally see when you kill a trash mob. You need to kill 8 Brazen bosses for it to be worth the same as one fetch quest.

Funnily enough, this is easily very true. On the opposite side, I've done nothing solo in the nm. I've only led large groups in the discord boss kills, mainly helping the casual solo questing people in the guild I'm an officer in open their rooms in the new house. I have under 5kish favor. I've not done more than a couple of the in district dailies and even a couple handfuls of the kill bosses dailies. So focusing on solo activities in there would probably see me further along.

ShutUpitsRed · May 6

Quoted post has been removed

This thread is a [preemptive snip] but this comment might explain some of the frustrations expressed throughout. ChatGPT is doing a poor job of correcting your English, and worse, hopefully, your tone. Highest level of benefit of the doubt being given: consider finding a different method of translating or otherwise checking your work, because as it stands you are not communicating effectively.

Anyway, I think part of what ZOS_Kevin said earlier in the thread should be copied and pinned to the top of the forums every time there's an update: "We also understand that not every piece of content will be for everyone, and that is okay."

This seems to be the crux of the issue. NM is very soloable if you pay attention and build for it even a little bit, heck even if you just slot Shadowy Disguise you're halfway there, but it does take more effort than your typical content where you can get up to make a snack while your companion handles the combat. If you're not into grouping up and participating in the glorious mutual carry or learning to solo... it's not for you, and that's ok. ZOS wasn't trying to push out 99% of the playerbase when they introduced tales of tribute (probably...) so I doubt they're trying to push out the extreme casuals now haha.

AzuraFan · May 6

Muizer wrote: »

Hmm my personal conclusion after 10 years of ESO is that I've been stuck being a solo player not because I don't want to group, but because I do not like the group content. And by that, I mean the formula not its execution.

I wonder if I'm alone in this and whether ZOS should think about that for a bit. Solo is, for the most part, a story driven adventure experience. Group content for the most part are combat obstacle courses that need to be rehearsed. Not the same thing at all.

Completely agree. I'm the same. I run dungeons (in pugs, so it's not that I won't group) because there's a sticky book, i.e. a collection, and I like doing collections. If there wasn't a sticky book, I'd have done each dungeon once for the quest and not stepped foot inside it again, unless it was the only way for me to get 3/3 endeavors (now challenges). I don't do trials, even though there's a collection aspect there too, because trials are sloggy combat (not difficult, but in terms of
"it takes a while to kill stuff"). The sloggy combat overrides the collection aspect for me there.

Combat just for the sake of combat, which is what dungeons, trials, arenas, the IA, and the NM are, bores me to tears, which is fortunate because due to an RSI I can't do them much anyway. I'm a story/exploration gamer through and through. That's also reflected in the single-player games I play.

I'll admit that I don't understand gamers who spend a lot of their gaming time watching red bars reduce down to zero and repeating the same content over and over, when they could be experiencing something new. But then they probably don't understand me.

Anyway, I love TES SP games because of the story (not necessarily the main quests, but the quests you discover along the way) and the massive amounts of exploration. ESO has that in its zones - more story than exploration, though. The more ESO moves away from story/exploration, the less I'll be interested in playing it.

Fortunately there's some story content coming down the pipe later in the year, and also other things that could appeal to me. The open question for me right now is whether there will be enough to keep me around. My sub renews in February, so I'll be able to see the story content, favours, rumours, sage's vault, and the solo dungeons before then (and most importantly the warden work) so I can see exactly what we're getting and if it'll scratch the story/exploration itch enought to stay.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If you want the game to last another ten, twenty years though then you need to anttract another audience.

If attracting one audience results in losing another audience, ESO won't have gained anything. This isn't an argument against creating group content, just pointing out that it would be in ESO's best interest to retain ALL of its current audiences and attract new/returning players.

I don't have any figures to back up what I'm about to say (like everyone else in this thread), but I suspect that ESO would lose more players by going full-on with group-oriented content than it would gain, meaning there would be a net loss in players. Fortunately it's not doing that.

(as an aside, I've checked my guild rosters (3) since NM was released, and on average about 15-20% of online players are in the NM. All three guilds are a good mix of endgame vets/casual players. Of course, there will be times when the percentage is much higher than that, when NM events are running.)

(and just to reiterate, the existence of the NM doesn't bother me. However, it might have gone down better if they hadn't led with it this year, but instead released it alongside solo-oriented content.)

Dracane · May 6

LadyGP wrote: »

Devs add something for group play (one could argue you can make a super tanky status effect build and solo slow burn NM on your own but...) and then we get comments like this...

"Do they have any plan to push solo players out of the game?"

... Do you honestly expect devs to respond/take people seriously when they have such extreme takes like this? There are literally hundred of hours of solo content in this game... how is adding a special..limited time group event thing pushing solos away?

Heres a wild idea...

All the solo people on the forums saying the game is dead.. it's too hard..etc should just go into NM together...

Easy fix, no? The group finder is full of NM stuff... you're only solo because you decide you want to be solo.

Respectfully, takes like this are a "you problem" and bashing ZoS for thinking outside the box and giving us some new fresh fun content like this is just going to make them not want to think outside of the box anymore.

People are not ready to hear this, but if ESO is dying (it is not; it is nicely coming back to life of late) then it's because of solo players sabotaging everything and pushing for non-MMO content and changes. It is really simple. If your MMO stops being an MMO, it will most likely suffer and die. Guilds, groups and communities keep MMOs alive, not the hermit who plays for 2 hours in the eve.

Zenimax does plenty of solo content. Most of the game can already be soloed. Things are becoming far more interesting now we are getting more difficult, group-oriented content. Every good MMO lives by this.

A balance between solo content and group content is required, and I think ZoS strikes this quite well overall. It is still too solo-leaning though in my opinion.

Ilsabet · May 6

Athory wrote: »

Casual/solo players are just being used to “feed” this Hardcore‑only mode. Nothing else.

Except that casual/solo players are the ones who benefit most from grouping in the Night Market.

I can take my undergeared low-CP noob in with a group finder PUG and get carried through all of my dailies and relic farming. Should those other players resent me for "using" them? Or are we all working together to get things done and reap the rewards?

I mean even as a more casual player with a modest build, I can contribute to the group. I can do some damage. I can pay attention to mechanics and explain mechanics to people who aren't familiar with them. I can toss out heals. I can rez people. I can keep a boss fight from resetting by dodge-rolling and spamming Brawler until everyone else makes it back from the respawn platform. That's not "pretending to participate." That's actually participating. And everyone in the group benefits from it.

I just don't see the connection between "people working together" and "those other people are using me and therefore I am being victimized." Especially when you could say the same thing about any group content, yet dungeons and trials and harrowstorms and dragons seem to be perfectly acceptable.

tomofhyrule · May 6

AzuraFan wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If you want the game to last another ten, twenty years though then you need to anttract another audience.

If attracting one audience results in losing another audience, ESO won't have gained anything. This isn't an argument against creating group content, just pointing out that it would be in ESO's best interest to retain ALL of its current audiences and attract new/returning players.

This is true. Which is why ESO is offering a mix of content.

But that also means there will be times when they release content aimed at a base you're not interested in personally, which is bound to happen. If we want the soloists to stick around, we need to offer solo content. If we want the group players to stick around, we need to offer group content. If we want the PvPers to stick around, we need to offer PvP content. It all tracks.

So getting mad because they released a piece of content that targeted one of those other playerbases? That's someone directly saying they want ZOS to stop focusing on the others. That's that playerbase directly trying to push another out. And as we see in this thread, people are mad at the very idea of making content for groups because they want everything for themselves. And that is a problem.

If it's in ESO's best interest to retain ALL of its current audiences, but one of its audiences can't handle not being catered to every patch, that puts ESO between a rock and a hard place. Do they cater exclusively to the one audience and push out the others? Or do they tell the one audience that other players deserve things too and then that audience leaves because they can't handle not getting 100% of the new content?

Athory · May 6

tomofhyrule wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If you want the game to last another ten, twenty years though then you need to anttract another audience.

If attracting one audience results in losing another audience, ESO won't have gained anything. This isn't an argument against creating group content, just pointing out that it would be in ESO's best interest to retain ALL of its current audiences and attract new/returning players.

This is true. Which is why ESO is offering a mix of content.

But that also means there will be times when they release content aimed at a base you're not interested in personally, which is bound to happen. If we want the soloists to stick around, we need to offer solo content. If we want the group players to stick around, we need to offer group content. If we want the PvPers to stick around, we need to offer PvP content. It all tracks.

So getting mad because they released a piece of content that targeted one of those other playerbases? That's someone directly saying they want ZOS to stop focusing on the others. That's that playerbase directly trying to push another out. And as we see in this thread, people are mad at the very idea of making content for groups because they want everything for themselves. And that is a problem.

If it's in ESO's best interest to retain ALL of its current audiences, but one of its audiences can't handle not being catered to every patch, that puts ESO between a rock and a hard place. Do they cater exclusively to the one audience and push out the others? Or do they tell the one audience that other players deserve things too and then that audience leaves because they can't handle not getting 100% of the new content?

I agree, but what if ZoS added [snip] market in exactly the same way they’ve always done things?
The exact same model, with both Normal and Veteran modes like usual. Who would that exclude?

Group focused players? Why would it?
Casual or solo players? Why would it?
No one? Exactly. That’s how it’s always worked.

After 12 years, this is the first time I can’t enjoy all the quests at my own pace during an event. And to make it worse, it’s a timed event.

I don’t think this [snip] Market fits ESO at all. If others enjoy it, that’s okay, I respect that.
I’ll keep fighting ZoS, not any of you for liking it.
But the truth is simple: nothing would change for you if they added Normal, Veteran, HM, or even harder modes.
You would group up anyway, clear the event, and enjoy it.

The only ones who really lose are solo and casual players who enjoy completing events, dailies, and similar content in normal mode without the pressure of group play\speed.

EDIT:
And before someone starts with the usual blah blah blah, of course, rewards should be consistent across normal, veteran, hard mode, and whatever other difficulty settings.

AzuraFan · May 6

tomofhyrule wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If you want the game to last another ten, twenty years though then you need to anttract another audience.

If attracting one audience results in losing another audience, ESO won't have gained anything. This isn't an argument against creating group content, just pointing out that it would be in ESO's best interest to retain ALL of its current audiences and attract new/returning players.

This is true. Which is why ESO is offering a mix of content.

But that also means there will be times when they release content aimed at a base you're not interested in personally, which is bound to happen. If we want the soloists to stick around, we need to offer solo content. If we want the group players to stick around, we need to offer group content. If we want the PvPers to stick around, we need to offer PvP content. It all tracks.

So getting mad because they released a piece of content that targeted one of those other playerbases? That's someone directly saying they want ZOS to stop focusing on the others. That's that playerbase directly trying to push another out. And as we see in this thread, people are mad at the very idea of making content for groups because they want everything for themselves. And that is a problem.

Oh, I agree. That's why I said at the bottom of my post:

"and just to reiterate, the existence of the NM doesn't bother me..."

However, I do think the reaction from part of the playerbase was predictable, which is why I said:

"it might have gone down better if they hadn't led with it this year, but instead released it alongside solo-oriented content.)"

But I agree with you. There shouldn't be any reason to be angry when there's more stuff coming later this year. At the same time, I understand why some players are upset that they still have to wait for content that appeals to them on this new content model. That's why it would probably have been better if they'd released perhaps the NM and something that appeals to those who solo.

But yeah, freaking out over the NM and thinking that's it for soloers is overreacting at this point. If a pattern develops, then sure, but that's not happened yet.

Koshka · May 6

Athory wrote: »

After 12 years, this is the first time I can’t enjoy all the quests at my own pace during an event. And to make it worse, it’s a timed event.

What quests? All those repeatable fetch quests can be done with no or minimal combat in less than an hour, even if you read every book and note. Maybe 2 hours tops if you are stubborn and dont wanna swap to a steath build. And you have like 40 days to do that.
The way you are describing things, it seems like you haven't tried NM (or any content that's not a quest) at all. Though, I guess, it might just be Chatgpt hallucinations lol.

Koshka · May 6

Quoted post has been removed

You said that you cannot do the quests at your own pace. But it seems like Chatgpt confused the NM with the Imperial City, because there's no real "story" per se in the Night Market. There's a few quick fetch quests, but that's it.

Athory · May 6

Koshka wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

You said that you cannot do the quests at your own pace. But it seems like Chatgpt confused the NM with the Imperial City, because there's no real "story" per se in the Night Market. There's a few quick fetch quests, but that's it.

"there's no real "story" per se in the Night Market." + "There's a few quick fetch quests" ......

edit: Athory wrote: "... After 12 years, this is the first time I can’t enjoy all the quests at my own pace during an event..."

Illbleed · May 6

90% of the game is solo and this is the issue with ESO. There's so much easy and soloable content that game has become a theme park like solo game with a chatbox and hub glued to it with no real sense of danger or adventure in the world. I appreciate that the devs are finally adding group required content as it helps with community and people learning to play their classes more effectively in certain situations. NM while flawed, has shown there needs to be more focus on the Massively multi-player part of the game because it brought life to the group finder and overall community play aspect of ESO.

Oh and to the guy who said MMO never ment grouping, you should've told that to Brad McQuaid (rip) because he said grouping and playing together in a massive open world setting is exactly why he "the father of MMORPG" started the genre, he also said a MMORPG should have a balanced mix of soloable and group centric content, and the rewards should reflect the players focus because a solo player shouldn't rewarded equally to group players because it can ruin the overall experience of the games community, see ESO for a perfect example.

Gabriel_H · May 6

Athory wrote: »

edit: Athory wrote: "... After 12 years, this is the first time I can’t enjoy all the quests at my own pace during an event..."

Are you claiming you've never participated in an in-game event? Those are basic fetch quests and even more time limited than the Night Market ones. Plus, the NM has the added advantage of being able to do quests while dead - not sure you could get a slower pace if you tried.

frogthroat · May 6

Athory wrote: »

I agree, but what if ZoS added [snip] market in exactly the same way they’ve always done things?
The exact same model, with both Normal and Veteran modes like usual. Who would that exclude?

ZOS wants to try something new and your solution is to do this event the same way as always before?

I disagree with your idea of segregation. Now casual players can freely mingle with more advanced players. They can find groups since the threshold is low. I think this event is working brilliantly bridging the gap between casual and veteran players.

I want more, not less open zones where veteran players are interested to join on the same playing field as casuals.

Who knows, maybe we'll see more players in veteran content in the future because of this event.

Athory wrote: »

After 12 years, this is the first time I can’t enjoy all the quests at my own pace during an event. And to make it worse, it’s a timed event.

All the quests are better to do solo. I don't bother my group with my zone quests. I do them when I am back there solo.

Athory wrote: »

But the truth is simple: nothing would change for you if they added Normal, Veteran, HM, or even harder modes.

It would go back to the old segregation and defeat the entire purpose of trying something new.

Athory wrote: »

The only ones who really lose are solo and casual players who enjoy completing events, dailies, and similar content in normal mode without the pressure of group play\speed.

At least this solo player doesn't lose. Man, today I have learned I am being used by experienced groups and now that I somehow lose something when I prefer to solo all the quests. What exactly do I lose?

Athory wrote: »

EDIT:
And before someone starts with the usual blah blah blah, of course, rewards should be consistent across normal, veteran, hard mode, and whatever other difficulty settings.

The rewards are overland sets and such. What would you think should be the veteran rewards if they added a veteran mode?

Skjaldbjorn · May 6

Athory wrote: »

I agree, but what if ZoS added [snip] market in exactly the same way they’ve always done things?
The exact same model, with both Normal and Veteran modes like usual. Who would that exclude?
Group focused players? Why would it?

Casual or solo players? Why would it?

No one? Exactly. That’s how it’s always worked.

After 12 years, this is the first time I can’t enjoy all the quests at my own pace during an event. And to make it worse, it’s a timed event.

I don’t think this [snip] Market fits ESO at all. If others enjoy it, that’s okay, I respect that.
I’ll keep fighting ZoS, not any of you for liking it.
But the truth is simple: nothing would change for you if they added Normal, Veteran, HM, or even harder modes.
You would group up anyway, clear the event, and enjoy it.

The only ones who really lose are solo and casual players who enjoy completing events, dailies, and similar content in normal mode without the pressure of group play\speed.

EDIT:
And before someone starts with the usual blah blah blah, of course, rewards should be consistent across normal, veteran, hard mode, and whatever other difficulty settings.

I don't know how much you actually follow Zos and the things they post/say. For years now, we've been bombarded with posts and ideas around "raising the skill floor". To that end, we got mythics like Oakensoul. Did it raise the skill floor? No. It created a crutch for many players. Then we got Arcanist with beam. Did it raise the skill floor? Yes, but only in the most backwards, band-aid way possible.

What the night market actually does really well is raise the skill floor in an organic, natural way. Players experience mechanics they may or may not have seen before, but this time, they are pretty ruthlessly punished for doing them incorrectly. Whereas a heavy attack in overland may stagger them, in the Night Market, it is entirely plausible it will one shot them. This is a learning moment, an opportunity to grow as a player and, by extension, help raise the skill floor.

I would rather see a hundred more events like this that kind of force players to grow around the content than see a single other mythic like Oakensoul which accomplished nothing as far as raising the skill floor.

BardokRedSnow · May 6

AzuraFan wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Hmm my personal conclusion after 10 years of ESO is that I've been stuck being a solo player not because I don't want to group, but because I do not like the group content. And by that, I mean the formula not its execution.

I wonder if I'm alone in this and whether ZOS should think about that for a bit. Solo is, for the most part, a story driven adventure experience. Group content for the most part are combat obstacle courses that need to be rehearsed. Not the same thing at all.

Completely agree. I'm the same. I run dungeons (in pugs, so it's not that I won't group) because there's a sticky book, i.e. a collection, and I like doing collections. If there wasn't a sticky book, I'd have done each dungeon once for the quest and not stepped foot inside it again, unless it was the only way for me to get 3/3 endeavors (now challenges). I don't do trials, even though there's a collection aspect there too, because trials are sloggy combat (not difficult, but in terms of
"it takes a while to kill stuff"). The sloggy combat overrides the collection aspect for me there.

Combat just for the sake of combat, which is what dungeons, trials, arenas, the IA, and the NM are, bores me to tears, which is fortunate because due to an RSI I can't do them much anyway. I'm a story/exploration gamer through and through. That's also reflected in the single-player games I play.

I'll admit that I don't understand gamers who spend a lot of their gaming time watching red bars reduce down to zero and repeating the same content over and over, when they could be experiencing something new. But then they probably don't understand me.

Anyway, I love TES SP games because of the story (not necessarily the main quests, but the quests you discover along the way) and the massive amounts of exploration. ESO has that in its zones - more story than exploration, though. The more ESO moves away from story/exploration, the less I'll be interested in playing it.

Fortunately there's some story content coming down the pipe later in the year, and also other things that could appeal to me. The open question for me right now is whether there will be enough to keep me around. My sub renews in February, so I'll be able to see the story content, favours, rumours, sage's vault, and the solo dungeons before then (and most importantly the warden work) so I can see exactly what we're getting and if it'll scratch the story/exploration itch enought to stay.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If you want the game to last another ten, twenty years though then you need to anttract another audience.

If attracting one audience results in losing another audience, ESO won't have gained anything.

Except that's what eso has been doing by trying to cater more to solo players, and arguably that's one of many reasons why communities have been leaving the game. And now, coincidentally, many are coming back when we're doing the opposite. As I said before, its not a new audience its the original eso player base, which was massive.

If you're advertising as a mass multiplayer online game but offer more single player elements than community ones, chances are your reach is limited. I don't even need figures, its common sense that if you're selling more burgers than sushi at a sushi restaurant you're getting limited clientele.

Rough analogy aside, the NM has been popping off, the tomes challenges seem to be a hit because I always see a huge crowd of players at the locations for them, and generally the mood is a lot more positive than it has been in years... outside of these forums where soloers are coming to complain. The same ones again and again.

As Tom already said they're offering more for everyone, a variety, but simply giving a morsel to the people who want eso to feel like an mmo again is enough to cause drama. Fascinating gaming community here.

spartaxoxo · May 6

Athory wrote: »

Koshka wrote: »

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You said that you cannot do the quests at your own pace. But it seems like Chatgpt confused the NM with the Imperial City, because there's no real "story" per se in the Night Market. There's a few quick fetch quests, but that's it.

"there's no real "story" per se in the Night Market." + "There's a few quick fetch quests" ......

edit: Athory wrote: "... After 12 years, this is the first time I can’t enjoy all the quests at my own pace during an event..."

The quests can almost all be completed using a sneak build without even fighting. They're things like "We're hungry, make us some soup," or "Go Grab these 3 artifacts and put them in a box." They have flavor text but they're not lore heavy and the ones in the district aren't even voice acted.

The story of the Night Market is pretty much just in the introduction quests, and it is basically just really loose lore to make sense of the place. You're not missing any real story.

spartaxoxo · May 6

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With all due respect, this whole thread is because you don't want to cooperate. That's fine. You're not required to want to be in groups. There's nothing wrong with wanting to fly solo in a video game. Single Player games are a massive sector of the business for a reason. But for those of us who do want multiplayer experiences, we aren't just "using," one another. We're working together for a common goal. That's cooperation, by definition. Many players have posted their good experiences working with others in the group finder. Many players were intimidated to try it at first and were pleasantly surprised with how nice and cooperative things were when they did. I'm sorry that hasn't been your experience. But my experience cannot invalidate yours, neither can your experience invalidate ours.

I think you really ought to adjust your build for the playstyle that you want to engage in. There are some guides posted here and other places that you may find helpful.

Skjaldbjorn · May 6

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I have personally led training runs/guilds over the years. I have worked with hundreds of ESO players to improve their parse or setups or ability. I have people reach out to me regularly for advice and input. I get called into discords to offer input and advice to people, especially for tanking. I'm never a *** about it. I'm always down to help. The issue is, I am always down to help people who want to improve and can take constructive criticism about things they may prefer. I am a mentor in one guild for people who want advice on PVE.

As I said in the post that got deleted, I have relied on no one in the night market. I have done every shred of content with people I raid with. I haven't "used" a single player for anything. In fact, I have joined NM groups repeatedly in casual/social guilds to help them get through the content, and have joined zergs to help them as well.

You don't know me, chief. You're making wild, baseless assumptions because you're salty or something. I am not the community police, but I have absolutely done my part. I won't even argue that the hyper end-game community has long been garbo, but there's tons of good folks in the mid tier who are always willing to help. What's exhausted me is people just refusing to take advice because it doesn't fall in line with their "I can play however I want" mantra. If that's the perspective, you aren't looking for help.

Psyphiman · May 6

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Oddly enough, I had never done a Veteran Dungeon or Group Finder before the Night Market. I'm sure what you're describing about gatekeeping is true, but maybe the Night Market is part of the solution of changing that culture. It really has been a positive, cooperative experience for me.

Varana · May 6

Psyphiman wrote: »

I'm sure what you're describing about gatekeeping is true...

It's not. I very much suspect there's one other reason for him (I assume) to feel that way.

BardokRedSnow · May 6

Psyphiman wrote: »

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Oddly enough, I had never done a Veteran Dungeon or Group Finder before the Night Market. I'm sure what you're describing about gatekeeping is true, but maybe the Night Market is part of the solution of changing that culture. It really has been a positive, cooperative experience for me.

same, people are far more cooperative here than Ive seen in trial guilds or dungeon guilds that get turned into trial guilds.

Its even gotten me to be nicer and be a proper tank again. I get annoyed when people try to derail my group for something else but if they ask politely I'll ask the group if they're okay with whatever puzzle or side quest someone wants to do, give the share and we simply do it. Same with skirmish fights that spawn which someone needs, bosses in other districts after we've made a full rotation, etc.

Other leads have been the exact same way. Really the only toxicity I've noticed is people joining the group and standing still to get the kills for the one eyed khajiit without doing anything, and I kick them immediately. Content creators are even encouraging this on their "tips" for the nightmarket crazily enough, but again, they're kicked as soon as I see them standing still for longer than twenty seconds on the map.