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Sorc nerfs are too heavy handed
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MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pinktraining wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Sorc's AoE is already very strong; Monolith shouldn't provide an additional 100 weapon damage as a general bonus. In my opinion, the best approach would be to make Monolith only provide 150 weapon damage to Sorc's skills.
also this is an amazing take. look at the above parses, of the top 10 damage skills how many are aoe? it's literally just monolith of storms. Sorc has terrible AoE.
Empower+Overload..
This is all you had to say to invalidate the rest of your position on the matter. I'm sorry if that comes across as rude, but it's a signifier your impression is based on a new/early game experience, because yes, those examples do look great on paper, but not in practice. The majority of this discussion is based on mid-late game where something like Overload + Empower is a detriment to your single target DPS, it has basically been regulated to solo/new players/accessibility/role playing.
To put it simply, classes or subclass combinations with good cleave do so naturally, efficiently, and easily. They do not sacrifice single target DPS to achieve said cleave because it's a part of their best abilities.
It would be like saying DW has excellent aoe because of Whirling Blades, while it's true, it's vastly weaker than 2H with Executioner, or practically any other execute in the game, while costing a lot too. I'm not saying it's useless, there's a time and place for aoe setups, but generally speaking, you optimize for single target, and hope that the abilities you choose also do decently in aoe, Sorc does not do this well right now.
They're meant as a single target nuker similar to NB, and if ZOS leans into this, allows them to thrive instead of always knocking them down, then no one would complain, but time and time again, Sorc get's to top single target DPS, the mob rushes in, ZOS nerfs them, then doesn't compensate with any sort of cleave so they don't get used in end game.Edited by MashmalloMan on May 5, 2026 3:52AM7 -
Pinktraining✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Sorc's AoE is already very strong; Monolith shouldn't provide an additional 100 weapon damage as a general bonus. In my opinion, the best approach would be to make Monolith only provide 150 weapon damage to Sorc's skills.
also this is an amazing take. look at the above parses, of the top 10 damage skills how many are aoe? it's literally just monolith of storms. Sorc has terrible AoE.
Empower+Overload..
This is all you had to say to invalidate the rest of your position on the matter. I'm sorry if that comes across as rude, but it's a signifier your impression is based on a new/early game experience, because yes, those examples do look like great on paper, but not in practice. The majority of this discussion is based on mid-late game where something like Overload + Empower is a detriment to your single target DPS, it has basically been regulated to solo/new players/accessibility/role playing.
To put it simply, classes or subclass combinations with good cleave do so naturally, efficiently, and easily. They do not sacrifice single target DPS to achieve said cleave because it's a part of their best abilities.
It would be like saying DW has excellent aoe because of Whirling Blades, while it's true, it's vastly weaker than 2H with Executioner, or practically any other execute in the game, while costing a lot too. I'm not saying it's useless, there's a time and place for aoe setups, but generally speaking, you optimize for single target, and hope that the abilities you choose also do decently in aoe, Sorc does not do this well right now.
They're meant as a single target nuker similar to NB, and if ZOS leans into this, allows them to thrive instead of always knocking them down, then no one would complain, but time and time again, Sorc get's to top single target DPS, the mob rushes in, ZOS nerfs them, then doesn't compensate with any sort of cleave so they don't get used in end game.
Many players utilize Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring to deal significant aoe damage in PvE, and the damage from Lightning Staves has even had a serious negative impact in PvP. The same applies to Mages' Fury; many players use this skill to steal kills in PvP.
Oakensoul is almost a tailor-made artifact for Sorc. Almost every Sorc can complete the game's content on their own with it. Doesn't this prove that Sorc has enough area-of-effect damage? Otherwise, how could they complete these tasks by themselves?0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »
They're meant as a single target nuker similar to NB, and if ZOS leans into this, allows them to thrive instead of always knocking them down, then no one would complain, but time and time again, Sorc get's to top single target DPS, the mob rushes in, ZOS nerfs them, then doesn't compensate with any sort of cleave so they don't get used in end game.
It's going to take a long time to completely remove this mob mentality of non-sorc forum goers when it comes to sorc.
Thankfully it seems ZOS is finally realizing just how biased this mob mentality has been and how unrealistic the "information" they have been using is, so fingers crossed things can move forward and ZOS can use the refresh to help alleviate some of this design where Sorc can find so many unique interactions that look amazing/broken on paper but don't function in real content so that sorc can finally get the abilities it needs to function in real content.5 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pinktraining wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Sorc's AoE is already very strong; Monolith shouldn't provide an additional 100 weapon damage as a general bonus. In my opinion, the best approach would be to make Monolith only provide 150 weapon damage to Sorc's skills.
also this is an amazing take. look at the above parses, of the top 10 damage skills how many are aoe? it's literally just monolith of storms. Sorc has terrible AoE.
Empower+Overload..
This is all you had to say to invalidate the rest of your position on the matter. I'm sorry if that comes across as rude, but it's a signifier your impression is based on a new/early game experience, because yes, those examples do look like great on paper, but not in practice. The majority of this discussion is based on mid-late game where something like Overload + Empower is a detriment to your single target DPS, it has basically been regulated to solo/new players/accessibility/role playing.
To put it simply, classes or subclass combinations with good cleave do so naturally, efficiently, and easily. They do not sacrifice single target DPS to achieve said cleave because it's a part of their best abilities.
It would be like saying DW has excellent aoe because of Whirling Blades, while it's true, it's vastly weaker than 2H with Executioner, or practically any other execute in the game, while costing a lot too. I'm not saying it's useless, there's a time and place for aoe setups, but generally speaking, you optimize for single target, and hope that the abilities you choose also do decently in aoe, Sorc does not do this well right now.
They're meant as a single target nuker similar to NB, and if ZOS leans into this, allows them to thrive instead of always knocking them down, then no one would complain, but time and time again, Sorc get's to top single target DPS, the mob rushes in, ZOS nerfs them, then doesn't compensate with any sort of cleave so they don't get used in end game.
Many players utilize Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring to deal significant aoe damage in PvE, and the damage from Lightning Staves has even had a serious negative impact in PvP. The same applies to Mages' Fury; many players use this skill to steal kills in PvP.
Oakensoul is almost a tailor-made artifact for Sorc. Almost every Sorc can complete the game's content on their own with it. Doesn't this prove that Sorc has enough area-of-effect damage? Otherwise, how could they complete these tasks by themselves?
You're just repeating what I already said. New-early game vs mid-end game. It's a matter of perspective. I'm aware of how Sorc is used at that stage, it doesn't mean it's good in end game.Edited by MashmalloMan on May 5, 2026 3:50AM1 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oakensoul is a honeyed poison for Sorc, making everyone using Lightning Staves HA look like Sorc, which creates the illusion that Sorc is popular and gives others an excuse to continue nerfing Sorc.
But the reality is quite the opposite: in PvP, Warden is the mainstream (because class Scribing), and in PvE, Arc has dominated the rankings for four consecutive years, while Nightblade's assassination line has held the first or second place for over a year.
"是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.4 -
Pinktraining✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Sorc's AoE is already very strong; Monolith shouldn't provide an additional 100 weapon damage as a general bonus. In my opinion, the best approach would be to make Monolith only provide 150 weapon damage to Sorc's skills.
also this is an amazing take. look at the above parses, of the top 10 damage skills how many are aoe? it's literally just monolith of storms. Sorc has terrible AoE.
Empower+Overload..
This is all you had to say to invalidate the rest of your position on the matter. I'm sorry if that comes across as rude, but it's a signifier your impression is based on a new/early game experience, because yes, those examples do look like great on paper, but not in practice. The majority of this discussion is based on mid-late game where something like Overload + Empower is a detriment to your single target DPS, it has basically been regulated to solo/new players/accessibility/role playing.
To put it simply, classes or subclass combinations with good cleave do so naturally, efficiently, and easily. They do not sacrifice single target DPS to achieve said cleave because it's a part of their best abilities.
It would be like saying DW has excellent aoe because of Whirling Blades, while it's true, it's vastly weaker than 2H with Executioner, or practically any other execute in the game, while costing a lot too. I'm not saying it's useless, there's a time and place for aoe setups, but generally speaking, you optimize for single target, and hope that the abilities you choose also do decently in aoe, Sorc does not do this well right now.
They're meant as a single target nuker similar to NB, and if ZOS leans into this, allows them to thrive instead of always knocking them down, then no one would complain, but time and time again, Sorc get's to top single target DPS, the mob rushes in, ZOS nerfs them, then doesn't compensate with any sort of cleave so they don't get used in end game.
Many players utilize Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring to deal significant aoe damage in PvE, and the damage from Lightning Staves has even had a serious negative impact in PvP. The same applies to Mages' Fury; many players use this skill to steal kills in PvP.
Oakensoul is almost a tailor-made artifact for Sorc. Almost every Sorc can complete the game's content on their own with it. Doesn't this prove that Sorc has enough area-of-effect damage? Otherwise, how could they complete these tasks by themselves?
You're just repeating what I already said. New-early game vs mid-end game. It's a matter of perspective. I'm aware of how Sorc is used at that stage, it doesn't mean it's good in end game.
Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring is definitely one of the best late-game strategies. Go to a few random group trials and you'll see that more than half of the players use Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring, and use Overload when they need AOE.0 -
Aces-High-82✭✭✭✭Pinktraining wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Sorc's AoE is already very strong; Monolith shouldn't provide an additional 100 weapon damage as a general bonus. In my opinion, the best approach would be to make Monolith only provide 150 weapon damage to Sorc's skills.
also this is an amazing take. look at the above parses, of the top 10 damage skills how many are aoe? it's literally just monolith of storms. Sorc has terrible AoE.
Empower+Overload..
This is all you had to say to invalidate the rest of your position on the matter. I'm sorry if that comes across as rude, but it's a signifier your impression is based on a new/early game experience, because yes, those examples do look like great on paper, but not in practice. The majority of this discussion is based on mid-late game where something like Overload + Empower is a detriment to your single target DPS, it has basically been regulated to solo/new players/accessibility/role playing.
To put it simply, classes or subclass combinations with good cleave do so naturally, efficiently, and easily. They do not sacrifice single target DPS to achieve said cleave because it's a part of their best abilities.
It would be like saying DW has excellent aoe because of Whirling Blades, while it's true, it's vastly weaker than 2H with Executioner, or practically any other execute in the game, while costing a lot too. I'm not saying it's useless, there's a time and place for aoe setups, but generally speaking, you optimize for single target, and hope that the abilities you choose also do decently in aoe, Sorc does not do this well right now.
They're meant as a single target nuker similar to NB, and if ZOS leans into this, allows them to thrive instead of always knocking them down, then no one would complain, but time and time again, Sorc get's to top single target DPS, the mob rushes in, ZOS nerfs them, then doesn't compensate with any sort of cleave so they don't get used in end game.
Many players utilize Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring to deal significant aoe damage in PvE, and the damage from Lightning Staves has even had a serious negative impact in PvP. The same applies to Mages' Fury; many players use this skill to steal kills in PvP.
Oakensoul is almost a tailor-made artifact for Sorc. Almost every Sorc can complete the game's content on their own with it. Doesn't this prove that Sorc has enough area-of-effect damage? Otherwise, how could they complete these tasks by themselves?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Xynode Jester build enjoyer2 -
Orbital78✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pinktraining wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Sorc's AoE is already very strong; Monolith shouldn't provide an additional 100 weapon damage as a general bonus. In my opinion, the best approach would be to make Monolith only provide 150 weapon damage to Sorc's skills.
also this is an amazing take. look at the above parses, of the top 10 damage skills how many are aoe? it's literally just monolith of storms. Sorc has terrible AoE.
Empower+Overload..
This is all you had to say to invalidate the rest of your position on the matter. I'm sorry if that comes across as rude, but it's a signifier your impression is based on a new/early game experience, because yes, those examples do look like great on paper, but not in practice. The majority of this discussion is based on mid-late game where something like Overload + Empower is a detriment to your single target DPS, it has basically been regulated to solo/new players/accessibility/role playing.
To put it simply, classes or subclass combinations with good cleave do so naturally, efficiently, and easily. They do not sacrifice single target DPS to achieve said cleave because it's a part of their best abilities.
It would be like saying DW has excellent aoe because of Whirling Blades, while it's true, it's vastly weaker than 2H with Executioner, or practically any other execute in the game, while costing a lot too. I'm not saying it's useless, there's a time and place for aoe setups, but generally speaking, you optimize for single target, and hope that the abilities you choose also do decently in aoe, Sorc does not do this well right now.
They're meant as a single target nuker similar to NB, and if ZOS leans into this, allows them to thrive instead of always knocking them down, then no one would complain, but time and time again, Sorc get's to top single target DPS, the mob rushes in, ZOS nerfs them, then doesn't compensate with any sort of cleave so they don't get used in end game.
Many players utilize Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring to deal significant aoe damage in PvE, and the damage from Lightning Staves has even had a serious negative impact in PvP. The same applies to Mages' Fury; many players use this skill to steal kills in PvP.
Oakensoul is almost a tailor-made artifact for Sorc. Almost every Sorc can complete the game's content on their own with it. Doesn't this prove that Sorc has enough area-of-effect damage? Otherwise, how could they complete these tasks by themselves?
You're just repeating what I already said. New-early game vs mid-end game. It's a matter of perspective. I'm aware of how Sorc is used at that stage, it doesn't mean it's good in end game.
Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring is definitely one of the best late-game strategies. Go to a few random group trials and you'll see that more than half of the players use Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring, and use Overload when they need AOE.
Are you in a pre-necrom pocket realm?2 -
Rkindaleft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pinktraining wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Sorc's AoE is already very strong; Monolith shouldn't provide an additional 100 weapon damage as a general bonus. In my opinion, the best approach would be to make Monolith only provide 150 weapon damage to Sorc's skills.
also this is an amazing take. look at the above parses, of the top 10 damage skills how many are aoe? it's literally just monolith of storms. Sorc has terrible AoE.
Empower+Overload..
This is all you had to say to invalidate the rest of your position on the matter. I'm sorry if that comes across as rude, but it's a signifier your impression is based on a new/early game experience, because yes, those examples do look like great on paper, but not in practice. The majority of this discussion is based on mid-late game where something like Overload + Empower is a detriment to your single target DPS, it has basically been regulated to solo/new players/accessibility/role playing.
To put it simply, classes or subclass combinations with good cleave do so naturally, efficiently, and easily. They do not sacrifice single target DPS to achieve said cleave because it's a part of their best abilities.
It would be like saying DW has excellent aoe because of Whirling Blades, while it's true, it's vastly weaker than 2H with Executioner, or practically any other execute in the game, while costing a lot too. I'm not saying it's useless, there's a time and place for aoe setups, but generally speaking, you optimize for single target, and hope that the abilities you choose also do decently in aoe, Sorc does not do this well right now.
They're meant as a single target nuker similar to NB, and if ZOS leans into this, allows them to thrive instead of always knocking them down, then no one would complain, but time and time again, Sorc get's to top single target DPS, the mob rushes in, ZOS nerfs them, then doesn't compensate with any sort of cleave so they don't get used in end game.
Many players utilize Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring to deal significant aoe damage in PvE, and the damage from Lightning Staves has even had a serious negative impact in PvP. The same applies to Mages' Fury; many players use this skill to steal kills in PvP.
Oakensoul is almost a tailor-made artifact for Sorc. Almost every Sorc can complete the game's content on their own with it. Doesn't this prove that Sorc has enough area-of-effect damage? Otherwise, how could they complete these tasks by themselves?
You're just repeating what I already said. New-early game vs mid-end game. It's a matter of perspective. I'm aware of how Sorc is used at that stage, it doesn't mean it's good in end game.
Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring is definitely one of the best late-game strategies. Go to a few random group trials and you'll see that more than half of the players use Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring, and use Overload when they need AOE.
That doesn't mean it's good. Random group trials are not endgame content. Hardly anyone uses Oakensoul DPS in any raid group that's progressing anything even remotely serious. It's okay for more casual veteran runs, group finder runs, pug runs or prog groups that that are doing older content because it's extremely easy to play and the damage is enough for that level of content, but those things are not endgame content. Sorcerer DPS has largely sucked for years in endgame content except for being the Martial Knowledge Atro slave before Subclassing.PlayStation NA https://youtube.com/@rkindaleftTick Tock Tormentor | Saintly Savior | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Kyne's Wrath | Planesbreaker | Swashbuckler Supreme | Mindmender | Unstoppable5 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pinktraining wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Sorc's AoE is already very strong; Monolith shouldn't provide an additional 100 weapon damage as a general bonus. In my opinion, the best approach would be to make Monolith only provide 150 weapon damage to Sorc's skills.
also this is an amazing take. look at the above parses, of the top 10 damage skills how many are aoe? it's literally just monolith of storms. Sorc has terrible AoE.
Empower+Overload..
This is all you had to say to invalidate the rest of your position on the matter. I'm sorry if that comes across as rude, but it's a signifier your impression is based on a new/early game experience, because yes, those examples do look like great on paper, but not in practice. The majority of this discussion is based on mid-late game where something like Overload + Empower is a detriment to your single target DPS, it has basically been regulated to solo/new players/accessibility/role playing.
To put it simply, classes or subclass combinations with good cleave do so naturally, efficiently, and easily. They do not sacrifice single target DPS to achieve said cleave because it's a part of their best abilities.
It would be like saying DW has excellent aoe because of Whirling Blades, while it's true, it's vastly weaker than 2H with Executioner, or practically any other execute in the game, while costing a lot too. I'm not saying it's useless, there's a time and place for aoe setups, but generally speaking, you optimize for single target, and hope that the abilities you choose also do decently in aoe, Sorc does not do this well right now.
They're meant as a single target nuker similar to NB, and if ZOS leans into this, allows them to thrive instead of always knocking them down, then no one would complain, but time and time again, Sorc get's to top single target DPS, the mob rushes in, ZOS nerfs them, then doesn't compensate with any sort of cleave so they don't get used in end game.
Many players utilize Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring to deal significant aoe damage in PvE, and the damage from Lightning Staves has even had a serious negative impact in PvP. The same applies to Mages' Fury; many players use this skill to steal kills in PvP.
Oakensoul is almost a tailor-made artifact for Sorc. Almost every Sorc can complete the game's content on their own with it. Doesn't this prove that Sorc has enough area-of-effect damage? Otherwise, how could they complete these tasks by themselves?
You're just repeating what I already said. New-early game vs mid-end game. It's a matter of perspective. I'm aware of how Sorc is used at that stage, it doesn't mean it's good in end game.
Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring is definitely one of the best late-game strategies. Go to a few random group trials and you'll see that more than half of the players use Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring, and use Overload when they need AOE.
Just because something is popular, does not mean it's objectively better. Is every popular movie 10/10? What about tiktoks of people eating fast food in their car with millions of views, are they automatically better than an indie movie on YouTube struggling to get 1k views? It's a nonsense statement to make.
Oakensoul is not designed for trial groups, it's for early game and accessibility, solo, and maybe 4 man or pug trials. I highly suggest looking up Hyperioxes from YouTube about this subject. He debunks a lot of the myths surrounding 1 bar setups, Oakensoul, and the alternatives that perform better if you're looking to be more competitive.
Way off topic anyway, like I said, different perspectives from your early game perspective vs the discussion on end game. I've listed a spoiler below to illustrate my point including the math from 2 parses on either end of the extremes, Pure Sorcerer vs Pure Arcanist. You're welcome to show me an Oakensoul Sorcerer parse to change my mind.
TLDR- Arcanist = 152k with 120k as AOE
- Sorc = 181k with 32k as AOE
- ...Aka 1/4th the AOE DPS
I didn't dig deep, there may be better parses out there, I also couldn't see the 2nd half of the damage numbers, but general results will end up the same. These 2 are pulled from Skinny's discord and I specifically picked non Warmask parses to highlight the delta. It also goes without saying, Arcanist is vastly easier on rotation complexity, especially with Velothi, in comparison to Sorc's Monolith/Bound Armaments/Frag/Overload/Signet mini-game.
(Null, MA 2H, 1p Zaan, Spattering Disjunction, Velothi)
50.4% x
9.8% x
7.3%
4.6%
3.0% x
3.0% x
2.7%
2.6% x
2.6% x
2.1%
1.8%
1.6%
Total I can observe = 91.5%
x = aoe = 71.4%
71.4/91.5 = 78%
152,695 x 0.78 = 119,102 aoe dps
152,695 x 0.22 = 33,593 st dps
(Mora's, MA 2H, 1p Zaan, Monolith, Shattered Path's Signet)
9.7%
9.5%
8.7%
8.6%
8.3%
6.2% x
6.0%
4.8% x
4.7%
4.3%
3.6%
3.3% x
3.0% x
Total I can observe = 80.7%
x = aoe = 14.3%
80.7/14.3 = 17.7%
181,438 x 0.177 = 32,114 aoe dps.
181,438 x 0.823 = 149,323 st dps.Edited by MashmalloMan on May 5, 2026 5:09AM7 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@MashmalloMan here is a parse also taken from skinnys discord. I'm sure @Zeeejay won't mind
TLDR- Heavy attack sorc = 132k with 71k as AOE
26.7 x
23.7 <-- this guy is the big nerf they did to lightning staff heavy attack. it used to be AOE, now it's not.
8.1
7.3 x
5.4 x
5.0
4.4 x
3.6 x
3 x
2.8
2.2 x
1.5
1.4 x
Total I can observe = 95.1%
x = aoe = 51%
95.1/51 = 53.6%
132,880 x 0.536 = 71,223 aoe dps.
132,880 x 0.464 = 61,656 st dps.
this is about as good as it gets for a lightning staff heavy attack build. to be clear, oakensoul parses are well below this.
What's interesting is that heavy attack sorc builds used to be hitting 75% aoe, but once arcanist dropped they decided that was too much cleave...
Edited by Tannus15 on May 5, 2026 5:33AM4 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pinktraining wrote: »
Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring is definitely one of the best late-game strategies. Go to a few random group trials and you'll see that more than half of the players use Lightning Staves heavy attacks and Oakensoul Ring, and use Overload when they need AOE.
This just hasn't been true for years now, ever since the tri-focus passive was nerfed to no longer provide cleave except on the final tick of the lightning staff heavy attack.1 -
RedKynAbyss✭✭Elendildur wrote: »I wonder, could the set be updated so that you are considered as a Monolith while wearing the set, so you can at least get some consistent damage from it?
Like Za’an but instead of attaching to the enemy, you attach to the pylon. I think this could be a good idea.
0