Why is everyone so adverse to grouping for NM?

Blood_again · May 4

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Night Market has multiple millions of favor of favor earned already and been out for less than a week. Most people aren't complaining in the forums about Night Market. They're either participating or just happily doing their own thing. Night Market is obviously very popular in the game itself because the level of participation is pretty huge.

Good point!
At the moment three factions have over 60 mil favor summary.
Supposing every participant has got 10k already, it is over 6000 participants.
Actually, I know that the majority of players are below 10k now. So there are way more players who played and got a good amount of favor on the Night Market this week.

Grec1a · May 5

Soarora wrote: »

Reading between the lines on some people’s posts, it’s clear to me that there are people unable to find groups who didn’t actually try to make a listing. They’re just looking in group finder and their guilds but not actually making a listing or asking people for a group.

The content I got stuck on was the 'easy-peasy' (haha!) first faction quest (fixing the wards or something). Usually in this game if you wanted help with something like that you'd post in the zone chat, no? And offer to share the quest? But the zone chat was completely dead when I was in there (presumably due to the 36 player cap) and apparently we can't share quests either.

As this content needs to be played differently from how we've been playing up to now, that should have been made clear from the get-go. Euphemistic comments like "many of the event zone’s challenges were designed for groups in mind" don't help.

Nearly a week in, this has all become apparent and I'll give the Night Market another go when it comes back again (and try to contain my embarrassment at having to make a GF listing for help with a daily fetch quest!). In the meantime, I'll enjoy other in-game activities that may or may not involve grouping or 'soft' grouping, depending on what comes up in this week's tome challenges.

Lekjih · May 5

Honestly I've loved the night market so far. Most people in game just put lfg nm in zone or guild chat but I've seen a few people so agressively against grouping or stealth and it just incites the same incredulous response in me as pvpers who don't like ganks, tanks, zergs, balls, solos with thumbs and pets. What's left if you strip it all away? A nothing game. Night market has been a breath of fresh air. AND has puzzles, no npcs shouting the same three instructions every three seconds so we get to think and do puzzles as a group. Excellent.

Edit: if keys were earned once, people would stop playing sooner. This keeps people in the zone to help those slower to earn their first set of keys.

DoofusMax · May 5

In general, I like to be pokey, take my time, explore corners, admire the scenery (after the corpses despawn), and that kind of thing. I'm also in a household where I frequently need to go AFK for a few minutes to deal with RL in the middle of playing. Neither of those lend themselves well to group play. It's not that I won't group as much as I prefer not to. So I tend to look for groups which have reasonably focused objectives (hunting Brazens, hunting Agents, or whatever).

KalevaLaine · May 5

Because they think this game is Skyrim online.

Cin_Vhetin · May 5

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Grec1a wrote: »

When Solstice came out on ESO+ a month or two ago, I was constantly forming and joining groups in chat, sharing quests etc. - it was very friendly and pleasant. I didn't need to form an 'official' group for the siege camps, as there were always at least a couple of players at each camp to help take the boss down.

I was expecting the same kind of experience with the Night Market. I didn't miss the fact that it was advertised as 'group content', and I wasn't put off. However the chat was dead, I saw one other player (who was as squishy as I was) and the one and only group in the Group Finder was so far away I died at least 20 times trying to get to them and then gave up.

It's too dismissive to say that players who don't like the Night Market missed the memo, or are anti-social and hate grouping. There's no soft grouping; zone chat is presumably 'per instance' rather than zone wide, so no finding any help there; and you may need multiple players for even the easiest faction quests (two players and our companions couldn't get past the trash mobs in my experience), which players might feel embarrassed posting a request in group finder for.

If people are enjoying it, fine. I gave it a crack and now I'm enjoying not doing it!

This is how I feel.

I prefer to play solo and not group, because I don't always know how much time I will have to play and groups don't always have the same agenda as I do, so I just don't.

I am not opposed to it and have and will group when it is needed.

I, however, very much prefer soft grouping where I can join a large party of people who are just all headed in the same direction, and that is what I thought this would be like. That there would be groups of people running around, and I could join them.

When I did find groups like that (only twice), yeah, it was fun, I got some stuff done, and things were generally okay.

But the other three times I tried it, the zones were empty. One time, the first, there were a lot of people in the Night Market portion of the instance, but only one or two in the skittering precinct where I was sent. The second time, again Skittering, I saw one other person running around the resurrection point, and no fights going on down below. The third time, the night market itself was empty, had like 5 players running around, and the zones, the other two besides skittering, each had like one person running around in them. I just went and ran the zone to get the main quest for my faction done so I can try to do dailies if I ever felt like it. Dying several times in the process (twice deliberately so I could get to the portal out of that zone)

I am planning on using the GF if it has any groups in it, but as someone whose build is a mess, I feel somewhat hesitant to join a random group, because you never know what you are going to get, plus I have heard people talk about how they have joined groups, and those groups are further in the districts, and they were never able to make it to them. Or the group wipes and then disbands.

THIS....

Mattymoo92 · May 5

SilverBride wrote: »

OccultNerd wrote: »

I've seen people asking for a solo or easier version of NM, why? Especially after the majority of players wanted harder content!

The majority do not want harder content. It was a the same handful of players in the pinned overland thread asking for more difficulty. That is far from the majority of players.

I’ve only seen around 10 of the same people complain and I’ve seen hundreds of people actually enjoying the content…

Only Zos have the true numbers but I’m pretty sure you are wrong

barney2525 · May 5

SilverBride wrote: »

OccultNerd wrote: »

I've seen people asking for a solo or easier version of NM, why? Especially after the majority of players wanted harder content!

The majority do not want harder content. It was a the same handful of players in the pinned overland thread asking for more difficulty. That is far from the majority of players.

Agreed. It is a Vocal Minority. And you can sometimes spot them as they run past every Overland mob at warp speed.

JaxontheUnfortunate · May 5

Would love to run this as a tank, but if pug dungeon groups have taught me anything no one wants tanks anymore and just want to sprint everywhere so I have passed on the Night market.

Soarora · May 5

JaxontheUnfortunate wrote: »

Would love to run this as a tank, but if pug dungeon groups have taught me anything no one wants tanks anymore and just want to sprint everywhere so I have passed on the Night market.

@JaxontheUnfortunate Night Market really benefits from a tank. There’s bosses that’ll one-shot a tank, let alone anyone else. I feel like Skirmishes need 3 tanks. The bosses need 1 but 2 works fine.

valenwood_vegan · May 5

There are a lot of people grouping and running the content via guilds and group finder. Some will always complain. At least in my social guild, there was such demand this weekend that we had to run a group every day and it generally overflowed into a second one (or extra people tagged along when there wasn't someone to organize the second group). These are largely newer or casual players; though we run normal trials, this is not some hardcore endgame guild. We actually have not seen such a level of demand or participation by guildies in *anything* for a couple years.

Just because some people are posting repetitively and complaining (and perhaps people in their circles are doing so too) does not mean "the majority" doesn't want this content; just as its popularity in my social guild is anecdotal as well. In the end zos will of course look at the feedback, but also the actual numbers and judge the event's success (and what future changes might be in order) for themselves I imagine.

Personally I like it, though there are some issues that I brought up in the feedback thread. It's one of the more social and challenging things that's happened in a while. Glad they're trying new things because my opinion was that the game was becoming stagnant!

robertlabrie · May 5

I think some of the community - and possibly ZOS themselves - underestimate how many players were treating ESO is a live service RPG and not an MMORPG. We care this time because Night Market is the new content and the premiere in game event and for a litany of previously discussed reasons it is out of reach for us.

Having a Vet and Normal mode for Night Market would have made this a non-issue. Really is a shame.

SilverBride · May 5

robertlabrie wrote: »

I think some of the community - and possibly ZOS themselves - underestimate how many players were treating ESO is a live service RPG and not an MMORPG. We care this time because Night Market is the new content and the premiere in game event and for a litany of previously discussed reasons it is out of reach for us.

Having a Vet and Normal mode for Night Market would have made this a non-issue. Really is a shame.

I have wondered why it only has one difficulty.

Morvan · May 5

barney2525 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

OccultNerd wrote: »

I've seen people asking for a solo or easier version of NM, why? Especially after the majority of players wanted harder content!

The majority do not want harder content. It was a the same handful of players in the pinned overland thread asking for more difficulty. That is far from the majority of players.

Agreed. It is a Vocal Minority. And you can sometimes spot them as they run past every Overland mob at warp speed.

The people complaining about NM is the vocal minority, you can tell by how fast groups fill, if I post on Group Finder for any activity in NM I get 12 players in seconds, I've been playing this game for years and never seen an event promote this level of cooperation before, definitely nothing close to this level.

Of course if you base population by forums alone (which has a higher influx of players who are only here to complain for the sake of complaining) you will get the illusion that you're the majority, but while you're all fighting over not being able to solo group activities, the server is actually playing the event and having fun.

By the way, NM is easier than a normal trial, they could have made this more challenging and it would still be ok.

anadandy · May 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

rothan117 wrote: »

I do not group because I have to go afk frequently and without warning. My real life situation dictates that I do not group as I cannot expect the group to pause for me with no notice and with what would be an annoying frequency.

If it were a dungeon that would be true. But there are completely unstructured event zone groups and everyone is doing their own thing and don't care.

Agreed. One of my pugs I took a wrong turn, then started following the herd again only to realize an embarrassingly long time later, this isn't my herd! My group had gone to a different district and they were totally fine when I was like Uhh guys...where are you again? 😂

LittlePinkDot · May 5

OccultNerd wrote: »

So....I generally play solo, I group up for trials/end etc but that's it. I play solo because I don't need a group for normal overland content,wbs, public dungeons etc.. I'm not an elitist, my DPS isn't amazing but I get on fine for the content I play.

Along comes Night Market...you need to group/follow a group/ sneak etc.. no problem, it was advertised as group content.

What I don't understand is why so many players refuse to group up and then come to the forums or FB groups and moan because they expected to do solo NM and they can't, so that's it they are quitting....what is they actual issue? Why won't these players join a team?

I've seen people asking for a solo or easier version of NM, why? Especially after the majority of players wanted harder content!

Where is everyone? There's nobody in the Night Market on PS5. So yeah it's too hard to do alone. I wish there was a PvP zone in there though.

Frayton · May 5

Morvan wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

OccultNerd wrote: »

I've seen people asking for a solo or easier version of NM, why? Especially after the majority of players wanted harder content!

The majority do not want harder content. It was a the same handful of players in the pinned overland thread asking for more difficulty. That is far from the majority of players.

Agreed. It is a Vocal Minority. And you can sometimes spot them as they run past every Overland mob at warp speed.

The people complaining about NM is the vocal minority, you can tell by how fast groups fill, if I post on Group Finder for any activity in NM I get 12 players in seconds, I've been playing this game for years and never seen an event promote this level of cooperation before, definitely nothing close to this level.

Of course if you base population by forums alone (which has a higher influx of players who are only here to complain for the sake of complaining) you will get the illusion that you're the majority, but while you're all fighting over not being able to solo group activities, the server is actually playing the event and having fun.

By the way, NM is easier than a normal trial, they could have made this more challenging and it would still be ok.

A lot of those players are the same people on alts and alt accounts, so yes NM groups might be filling fast, but it's by the same people which greatly skews participation numbers.

BretonMage · May 5

frogthroat wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

To answer the OP’s question, it’s not that I don’t like grouping for NM. It’s just that my playtime is limited and sporadic and can be interrupted at any moment by RL issues that it’s hard for me to group because I may have to drop out at a moment’s notice and I don’t want to inconvenience other players. The only time I’ll risk it is when I think there’s a chance I won’t be interrupted long enough to finish.

The few groups I have tried in NM, they are all easy come, easy go. Just apply, get in group. Maybe say something when you leave, but not necessary. As long as you actually leave the group when you leave and not stay in the group offline.

Oh dear, what actually happens if someone forgets to leave the group before logging off? I might have been distracted enough to have done that once.

AScarlato · May 5

Frayton wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

OccultNerd wrote: »

I've seen people asking for a solo or easier version of NM, why? Especially after the majority of players wanted harder content!

The majority do not want harder content. It was a the same handful of players in the pinned overland thread asking for more difficulty. That is far from the majority of players.

Agreed. It is a Vocal Minority. And you can sometimes spot them as they run past every Overland mob at warp speed.

The people complaining about NM is the vocal minority, you can tell by how fast groups fill, if I post on Group Finder for any activity in NM I get 12 players in seconds, I've been playing this game for years and never seen an event promote this level of cooperation before, definitely nothing close to this level.

Of course if you base population by forums alone (which has a higher influx of players who are only here to complain for the sake of complaining) you will get the illusion that you're the majority, but while you're all fighting over not being able to solo group activities, the server is actually playing the event and having fun.

By the way, NM is easier than a normal trial, they could have made this more challenging and it would still be ok.

A lot of those players are the same people on alts and alt accounts, so yes NM groups might be filling fast, but it's by the same people which greatly skews participation numbers.

And where do you get this data? How would you know how much of this activity is from different people or not? EIther way it doesn't change that we are seeing a great increase in activity, and those same alts and accounts exist at other times too.

Frayton · May 5

AScarlato wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

OccultNerd wrote: »

I've seen people asking for a solo or easier version of NM, why? Especially after the majority of players wanted harder content!

The majority do not want harder content. It was a the same handful of players in the pinned overland thread asking for more difficulty. That is far from the majority of players.

Agreed. It is a Vocal Minority. And you can sometimes spot them as they run past every Overland mob at warp speed.

The people complaining about NM is the vocal minority, you can tell by how fast groups fill, if I post on Group Finder for any activity in NM I get 12 players in seconds, I've been playing this game for years and never seen an event promote this level of cooperation before, definitely nothing close to this level.

Of course if you base population by forums alone (which has a higher influx of players who are only here to complain for the sake of complaining) you will get the illusion that you're the majority, but while you're all fighting over not being able to solo group activities, the server is actually playing the event and having fun.

By the way, NM is easier than a normal trial, they could have made this more challenging and it would still be ok.

A lot of those players are the same people on alts and alt accounts, so yes NM groups might be filling fast, but it's by the same people which greatly skews participation numbers.

And where do you get this data? How would you know how much of this activity is from different people or not? EIther way it doesn't change that we are seeing a great increase in activity, and those same alts and accounts exist at other times too.

You can see people's account names and people literally say they're farming with all their alts. People are even bragging about getting the skins this way.

AScarlato · May 5

Frayton wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

OccultNerd wrote: »

I've seen people asking for a solo or easier version of NM, why? Especially after the majority of players wanted harder content!

The majority do not want harder content. It was a the same handful of players in the pinned overland thread asking for more difficulty. That is far from the majority of players.

Agreed. It is a Vocal Minority. And you can sometimes spot them as they run past every Overland mob at warp speed.

The people complaining about NM is the vocal minority, you can tell by how fast groups fill, if I post on Group Finder for any activity in NM I get 12 players in seconds, I've been playing this game for years and never seen an event promote this level of cooperation before, definitely nothing close to this level.

Of course if you base population by forums alone (which has a higher influx of players who are only here to complain for the sake of complaining) you will get the illusion that you're the majority, but while you're all fighting over not being able to solo group activities, the server is actually playing the event and having fun.

By the way, NM is easier than a normal trial, they could have made this more challenging and it would still be ok.

A lot of those players are the same people on alts and alt accounts, so yes NM groups might be filling fast, but it's by the same people which greatly skews participation numbers.

And where do you get this data? How would you know how much of this activity is from different people or not? EIther way it doesn't change that we are seeing a great increase in activity, and those same alts and accounts exist at other times too.

You can see people's account names and people literally say they're farming with all their alts. People are even bragging about getting the skins this way.

Sure, you can get more favor logging in with alts which I found out this morning. But most people would still only be on one character at a time so that wouldn't account for how much activity there is.

I'm not sure why some people are invested in this event being a failure. We should be happy groups fill quickly and people play alts all the time for many reasons.

SundarahFr3akinrican · May 5

Onomos wrote: »

My issue isn't grouping. The issue I'm finding is the difficulty of some of the contet (skirmishes, certain bosses) is making groups ineffective. Then the fights take too long or you get a wipe and the group just crumbles. I have yet to be in a skirmish group in The Parch that doesn't have people quit halfway through the fight. Unlike trials or dungeons, there's little incentive to stay in the group (or any penalty for leaving). I have had some good groups, but it's about 50-50 so far. And this is strictly the A-level content (brazen and argent bosses or skirmishes).

I'm sure if you started communicating with the group, things could turn around for the better.

illusiouk · May 5

For a solo player, You just to need bite the bullet and group with other solo players in a pug group to achieve the boss kills etc.

The dungeons are easy for a pug group.

Tonight I was lucky to get in a pug group in Opulent Ordeal Trial and complete it in my first attempt.

I'm not in a guild and solo 99% so If can do it, other solo players can do it.

Will I do it all again for the keys, doubt it.

Morvan · May 6

Frayton wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

OccultNerd wrote: »

I've seen people asking for a solo or easier version of NM, why? Especially after the majority of players wanted harder content!

The majority do not want harder content. It was a the same handful of players in the pinned overland thread asking for more difficulty. That is far from the majority of players.

Agreed. It is a Vocal Minority. And you can sometimes spot them as they run past every Overland mob at warp speed.

The people complaining about NM is the vocal minority, you can tell by how fast groups fill, if I post on Group Finder for any activity in NM I get 12 players in seconds, I've been playing this game for years and never seen an event promote this level of cooperation before, definitely nothing close to this level.

Of course if you base population by forums alone (which has a higher influx of players who are only here to complain for the sake of complaining) you will get the illusion that you're the majority, but while you're all fighting over not being able to solo group activities, the server is actually playing the event and having fun.

By the way, NM is easier than a normal trial, they could have made this more challenging and it would still be ok.

A lot of those players are the same people on alts and alt accounts, so yes NM groups might be filling fast, but it's by the same people which greatly skews participation numbers.

And where do you get this data? How would you know how much of this activity is from different people or not? EIther way it doesn't change that we are seeing a great increase in activity, and those same alts and accounts exist at other times too.

You can see people's account names and people literally say they're farming with all their alts. People are even bragging about getting the skins this way.

So you're telling me you've been memorizing and/or asking hundreds/thousands of players if they're using alt accounts? Sure.

Even if you were right, that doesn't change the fact the population running NM is massive, there are hundreds of groups filling within seconds, people are not playing on multiple characters at the same time, so even if we add alts to the equation they'd still count as one.

jad11mumbler · May 6

Frayton wrote: »

A lot of those players are the same people on alts and alt accounts, so yes NM groups might be filling fast, but it's by the same people which greatly skews participation numbers.

You're greatly over exaggerating how many players there are with alt accounts.

A handful will be using alts yes, but not enough to skew the results by much.

Tra_Lalan · May 6

SilverBride wrote: »

The majority do not want harder content. It was a the same handful of players in the pinned overland thread asking for more difficulty. That is far from the majority of players.

How do you know what the majority of players wants? Do you have any data to prove this statement?

ZOS has a lot of tools to analize what the players do and want, and they decided to go live with this event zone (harder content) and annouce the challange difficulty options.

"the same handful of players" works for both sides of conflict. How many post have you wrote in this "veteran overland" thread? I was in favour of it and maybe made one or two posts there.

jad11mumbler · May 6

SilverBride wrote: »

OccultNerd wrote: »

I've seen people asking for a solo or easier version of NM, why? Especially after the majority of players wanted harder content!

It was a the same handful of players in the pinned overland thread asking for more difficulty.

Calling it the same handful of players is disingenuous, while there was a handful that would return to the thread there were still plenty of unique users from a quick AI analysis of it. Mid & late did have repeat participants, but that's standard for the forums in general.

Until someone wants to go through each of those 331 pages and collect the data for it, more were for it overall than against it in that thread.

SilverBride wrote: »

Also, I never ever heard anyone in zone chat, or guild chat, or anywhere in game complaining that the game was too easy.

I'm on PCNA, I will gladly tell you, overland content is too easy in my opinion, as I have said for the last 8~ years.
You're limited to 5 guilds that fit your playstyle so using guild chat as a sample isn't relevant.
Not that it matters now as thankfully ZoS has given us what we wanted, optionally harder content that doesn't affect the game for you what so ever, while letting those of us who wanted it enjoy it again.

What the "Majority" wants is also not relevant.
If we went off the majority vote, this game wouldn't even be profitable and all zones would be an easier version of overland we currently have, with no PvP, no dungeons / trials, etc.

It's not a democracy where casual players choose what they want from it.

MincMincMinc · May 6

It doesn't help that for 10 years zos cultivated an overland crowd that is so used to every zone being the difficulty of a starter zone in their cp1000+ characters that one shot everything. They avoided addressing the issues that came with One Tamriel (oct 2016......coming up on 10 years ago)

I still remember in the first few years content was so level focused that you had to farm in certain areas all throughout auridon through grahtwood, greenshade, malbal, and then finally in reapers just to move on to vet ranks and go through the cadwell's silver and gold ep/dc campaigns. Now a days even on a new account everything just feels like a starter zone where you get so accustomed to one shotting everything and not learning how to simply block or dodge attacks. Or how to selfheal and bother group training mobs around.

frogthroat · May 6

JaxontheUnfortunate wrote: »

Would love to run this as a tank, but if pug dungeon groups have taught me anything no one wants tanks anymore and just want to sprint everywhere so I have passed on the Night market.

I actually have tanked that a bit. The most inconveniences come from other tanks in zergs. Not when it's clearly an organised group, but from random pug tanks in an unorganised zerg. Tanks who do not understand that overtaunt is a thing. Or care about courtesy when you are tanking a boss with your small group, the zerg just roll in and the tank starts taunting the boss like you weren't there.

Protip for zerg tanks: if bossfight is already going when you get there, pay attention if someone is already tanking the boss. If the guy the boss is aggroed on has a sword and a shield, most likely the boss is taunted just fine. Concentrate on pulling ads close to the boss so they die of cleave. Leave the boss to the one who is already tanking it. Help, don't try to take over.

Everything else, no worries. Actually pretty fun to tank there.

frogthroat · May 6

BretonMage wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

To answer the OP’s question, it’s not that I don’t like grouping for NM. It’s just that my playtime is limited and sporadic and can be interrupted at any moment by RL issues that it’s hard for me to group because I may have to drop out at a moment’s notice and I don’t want to inconvenience other players. The only time I’ll risk it is when I think there’s a chance I won’t be interrupted long enough to finish.

The few groups I have tried in NM, they are all easy come, easy go. Just apply, get in group. Maybe say something when you leave, but not necessary. As long as you actually leave the group when you leave and not stay in the group offline.

Oh dear, what actually happens if someone forgets to leave the group before logging off? I might have been distracted enough to have done that once.

Don't sweat over it. It is just seen as slightly impolite and it's a minor inconvenience and annoyance when the group lead has to remove you manually.

Bad thing is, it will encourage quick booting when group leads don't know if you had a crash, if you are just having a toilet break or if you just left without giving an eff if you are hogging a place from someone who actually wants to play. So your actions might lead to group leads to boot also those who had a quick crash but are trying to log back in.