Exclude WW from Signet

coop500 · May 4

Just read the patch notes, saw how they did exactly what I said they would (nerf Rip and Tear further to make Bloody Gnash more appealing) while still not even addressing the elephant in the room. Health based scaling for PvP, and the Signet Mythic in BOTH modes.

You guys HAVE TO exclude werewolf from the Signet mythic or the nerf calls will NEVER STOP and it has to be done on PTS Week 5 or Werewolf is going to be destroyed through nerfs after nerfs before Signet is finally reigned in.

autocookies · May 4

Most top-performing werewolf parses currently rely on Signet, and its high damage output is effectively setting the benchmark for the entire playstyle. Because balance adjustments are being made around that level of performance, any build that doesn’t incorporate Signet is inevitably going to fall behind.

I would strongly prefer that Signet-based werewolf builds be addressed decisively now, rather than gradually nerfed over time in a way that risks undermining the viability of all other setups in the process.

coop500 · May 4

autocookies wrote: »

Most top-performing werewolf parses currently rely on Signet, and its high damage output is effectively setting the benchmark for the entire playstyle. Because balance adjustments are being made around that level of performance, any build that doesn’t incorporate Signet is inevitably going to fall behind.

I would strongly prefer that Signet-based werewolf builds be addressed decisively now, rather than gradually nerfed over time in a way that risks undermining the viability of all other setups in the process.

Yup, this is 100% my stance too. I have no interest in using the cheese of the month that is WW Signet, but it's existence will destroy my enjoyment of the werewolf rework if the entire playstyle is balanced around that ring.

MashmalloMan · May 4

Hmmm... hate to say I told you so to everyone that said Signet was fine and enabled a fun playstyle, but "I told you so."

Any set item that tells you "receive this massive benefit for not engaging with a core mechanic of the game" is problematic. Even Oakensoul understands this, it eliminates a bar, but it doesn't give you maximum ceiling DPS, it's for early-mid tier players. Warmask gives great single target, but it nukes your cleave meaning most people won't use it in real content, it also actually requires some type of effort.

Modifiers like 170% for Signet and 150% for Empower should be EYE OPENING to the dev team when majority of modifiers we use are between 5~12% for damage done. These effectively give 10x the value, so either they're overperforming (Signet) or the base thing it's modifying is underperforming (Heavy Attacks).

And they just keep going in circles, nerfing Permanent pets, then just Bear, in an effort to keep Signet exactly the same instead of tinkering with it any capacity. I want a status effect mythic, but I don't want this, something that works best when not casting your ultimate, doing nothing... or cheesing it with setups like Warden's Bear, Sorc's Overload, or WW's transformation.

I go back to my original suggestion:

Add a base effect; +20% damage done with status effects and 1 random status effect every 2s.
Instead of 1% per ultimate stored up to 170%, give 80% for 1s per 10 ultimate spent.
For the purposes of this proc condition, allow Rampage to be treated as an ultimate.

Or something like this anyway, the point stands; big number go down, low number go up, all ultimates are rewarded, fun part of random effects improved. It should be usable for all status effect/elemental playstyles, instead of enabling this weird situation where anyone can use it just by never casting their ultimate.

I don't even want to hear about accessibility concerns on this one, because that's clearly not the intent of the design for Signet, and Oakensoul players who are disabled cast ultimates still. The part they're trying to avoid is the frequent APM requirements of bar swapping and managing 12 abilities instead of 6. Oakensoul includes Minor Heroism for a reason.

coop500 · May 4

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Hmmm... hate to say I told you so to everyone that said Signet was fine and enabled a fun playstyle, but "I told you so."

Any set item that tells you "receive this massive benefit for not engaging with a core mechanic of the game" is problematic. Even Oakensoul understands this, it eliminates a bar, but it doesn't give you maximum ceiling DPS, it's for early-mid tier players. Warmask gives great single target, but it nukes your cleave meaning most people won't use it in real content, it also actually requires some type of effort.

Modifiers like 170% for Signet and 150% for Empower should be EYE OPENING to the dev team when majority of modifiers we use are between 5~12% for damage done. These effectively give 10x the value, so either they're overperforming (Signet) or the base thing it's modifying is underperforming (Heavy Attacks).

And they just keep going in circles, nerfing Permanent pets, then just Bear, in an effort to keep Signet exactly the same instead of tinkering with it any capacity. I want a status effect mythic, but I don't want this, something that works best when not casting your ultimate, doing nothing... or cheesing it with setups like Warden's Bear, Sorc's Overload, or WW's transformation.

I go back to my original suggestion:
Add a base effect; +20% damage done with status effects and 1 random status effect every 2s.

Instead of 1% per ultimate stored up to 170%, give 80% for 1s per 10 ultimate spent.

For the purposes of this proc condition, allow Rampage to be treated as an ultimate.

Or something like this anyway, the point stands; big number go down, low number go up, all ultimates are rewarded, fun part of random effects improved. It should be usable for all status effect/elemental playstyles, instead of enabling this weird situation where anyone can use it just by never casting their ultimate.

I don't even want to hear about accessibility concerns on this one, because that's clearly not the intent of the design for Signet, and Oakensoul players who are disabled cast ultimates still. The part they're trying to avoid is the frequent APM requirements of bar swapping and managing 12 abilities instead of 6. Oakensoul includes Minor Heroism for a reason.

That's something I noticed is a lot of good mythics have drawbacks, Oakensoul (my favorite), Pale Order, Warmask, and that Velothi Mage Amulet. They ALL have drawbacks. Why does this Signet have NO drawback and just a crapton of free power for nothing?

Elendildur · May 4

coop500 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Hmmm... hate to say I told you so to everyone that said Signet was fine and enabled a fun playstyle, but "I told you so."

Any set item that tells you "receive this massive benefit for not engaging with a core mechanic of the game" is problematic. Even Oakensoul understands this, it eliminates a bar, but it doesn't give you maximum ceiling DPS, it's for early-mid tier players. Warmask gives great single target, but it nukes your cleave meaning most people won't use it in real content, it also actually requires some type of effort.

Modifiers like 170% for Signet and 150% for Empower should be EYE OPENING to the dev team when majority of modifiers we use are between 5~12% for damage done. These effectively give 10x the value, so either they're overperforming (Signet) or the base thing it's modifying is underperforming (Heavy Attacks).

And they just keep going in circles, nerfing Permanent pets, then just Bear, in an effort to keep Signet exactly the same instead of tinkering with it any capacity. I want a status effect mythic, but I don't want this, something that works best when not casting your ultimate, doing nothing... or cheesing it with setups like Warden's Bear, Sorc's Overload, or WW's transformation.

I go back to my original suggestion:
Add a base effect; +20% damage done with status effects and 1 random status effect every 2s.

Instead of 1% per ultimate stored up to 170%, give 80% for 1s per 10 ultimate spent.

For the purposes of this proc condition, allow Rampage to be treated as an ultimate.

Or something like this anyway, the point stands; big number go down, low number go up, all ultimates are rewarded, fun part of random effects improved. It should be usable for all status effect/elemental playstyles, instead of enabling this weird situation where anyone can use it just by never casting their ultimate.

I don't even want to hear about accessibility concerns on this one, because that's clearly not the intent of the design for Signet, and Oakensoul players who are disabled cast ultimates still. The part they're trying to avoid is the frequent APM requirements of bar swapping and managing 12 abilities instead of 6. Oakensoul includes Minor Heroism for a reason.

That's something I noticed is a lot of good mythics have drawbacks, Oakensoul (my favorite), Pale Order, Warmask, and that Velothi Mage Amulet. They ALL have drawbacks. Why does this Signet have NO drawback and just a crapton of free power for nothing?

The drawback for Signet is that you kinda can't use your ultimate if you want to keep the bonus, and the Minor Timidity. The reason it works so well on Sorcerer, Warden and (new) Werewolf is because they have ultimates that they can use without draining all their ultimate points

Wuuffyy · May 4

Elendildur wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Hmmm... hate to say I told you so to everyone that said Signet was fine and enabled a fun playstyle, but "I told you so."

Any set item that tells you "receive this massive benefit for not engaging with a core mechanic of the game" is problematic. Even Oakensoul understands this, it eliminates a bar, but it doesn't give you maximum ceiling DPS, it's for early-mid tier players. Warmask gives great single target, but it nukes your cleave meaning most people won't use it in real content, it also actually requires some type of effort.

Modifiers like 170% for Signet and 150% for Empower should be EYE OPENING to the dev team when majority of modifiers we use are between 5~12% for damage done. These effectively give 10x the value, so either they're overperforming (Signet) or the base thing it's modifying is underperforming (Heavy Attacks).

And they just keep going in circles, nerfing Permanent pets, then just Bear, in an effort to keep Signet exactly the same instead of tinkering with it any capacity. I want a status effect mythic, but I don't want this, something that works best when not casting your ultimate, doing nothing... or cheesing it with setups like Warden's Bear, Sorc's Overload, or WW's transformation.

I go back to my original suggestion:
Add a base effect; +20% damage done with status effects and 1 random status effect every 2s.

Instead of 1% per ultimate stored up to 170%, give 80% for 1s per 10 ultimate spent.

For the purposes of this proc condition, allow Rampage to be treated as an ultimate.

Or something like this anyway, the point stands; big number go down, low number go up, all ultimates are rewarded, fun part of random effects improved. It should be usable for all status effect/elemental playstyles, instead of enabling this weird situation where anyone can use it just by never casting their ultimate.

I don't even want to hear about accessibility concerns on this one, because that's clearly not the intent of the design for Signet, and Oakensoul players who are disabled cast ultimates still. The part they're trying to avoid is the frequent APM requirements of bar swapping and managing 12 abilities instead of 6. Oakensoul includes Minor Heroism for a reason.

That's something I noticed is a lot of good mythics have drawbacks, Oakensoul (my favorite), Pale Order, Warmask, and that Velothi Mage Amulet. They ALL have drawbacks. Why does this Signet have NO drawback and just a crapton of free power for nothing?

The drawback for Signet is that you kinda can't use your ultimate if you want to keep the bonus, and the Minor Timidity. The reason it works so well on Sorcerer, Warden and (new) Werewolf is because they have ultimates that they can use without draining all their ultimate points

That’s all fun in games until it gives you more damage than dropping an ultimate by a metric ton. Simply made completely irrelevant with any ult-but-not-an-ult skill as you mentioned.

Elendildur · May 4

I wonder, if they added Major Timidity into the game (which would drain 3 ultimate every 1.5 seconds, based on how Major Heroism works) and added that on top of the Minor Timidity, so you drain 4 ultimate every 1.5 seconds, would that be enough to put it in a better spot?
Doing damage with light attacks gives you 3 ultimate every 1 second, so that can easily counteract Minor Timidity, but it might have a harder time if Major Timidity was there too

coop500 · May 4

It could also act as a sub-oakensoul and disable ultimates entirely while equipped haha. (Yes including WW, Sorc and Warden Bear)

Wuuffyy · May 4

coop500 wrote: »

It could also act as a sub-oakensoul and disable ultimates entirely while equipped haha. (Yes including WW, Sorc and Warden Bear)

Should’ve done all of these before they started nerfing anything imo.

At least sorc because we knew about that before they implemented nerfs.

MashmalloMan · May 5

coop500 wrote: »

It could also act as a sub-oakensoul and disable ultimates entirely while equipped haha. (Yes including WW, Sorc and Warden Bear)

And this is my other argument. If the mythic was meant to "disable" your ultimate, they'd do it outright like Oakensoul or Snowtreaders.

Instead, they give a slap on the wrist, a measly -0.66/s to your base 3/s means you'll inevitably hit 500 and never lose it regardless. If DPS is better without casting your ultimate than other mythics with casting your ultimate, the only real drawback is losing the support or utility those ultimates may bring. Eg. Sorc's Atro for Major Berserk.

It's like they wanted to reward high ultimate cost elemental playstyles like DK's Standard, Sorc's Atro, Warden's Northern Storm, and Arcanist's Eye, all of which are above 170 ultimate, yet failed in execution. Instead, it's being abused by setups that can get passive/free ultimate damage like Bear and WW, ithout spending ult.

What's funny is the only playstyle where the design genuinely makes sense is WW since they actively need to manage their ult drain 24/7 or they lose the form, yet this can be easily circumvented since Minor Timidity is a joke.

At this rate with the refreshes, it's going to keep causing problems, and ZOS is going to keep attempting to balance it with unnecessary red tape excluding x, y, z from working with it instead of just reworking it. I'd like to skip to the end bit please.

xylena · May 5

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What's funny is the only playstyle where the design genuinely makes sense

Sorc sitting on max Overload too.

But really most of what it'll be used for is melting players by spamming LA + Ele Sus with proc sets from range, sitting safely on top of a wall or inside a zerg. Worst way to design pressure.

OP isn't wrong, look at how NB got gutted for the crimes of Monomyth Reforged, which is what really drove the idiotic one shot meta in PvP more than subclassing or Assassination.

Wuuffyy · May 5

xylena wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What's funny is the only playstyle where the design genuinely makes sense

Sorc sitting on max Overload too.

But really most of what it'll be used for is melting players by spamming LA + Ele Sus with proc sets from range, sitting safely on top of a wall or inside a zerg. Worst way to design pressure.

OP isn't wrong, look at how NB got gutted for the crimes of Monomyth Reforged, which is what really drove the idiotic one shot meta in PvP more than subclassing or Assassination.

Is this doing more damage than some combination of force pulse, I’m curious?

Arunei · May 5

xylena wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What's funny is the only playstyle where the design genuinely makes sense

Sorc sitting on max Overload too.

But really most of what it'll be used for is melting players by spamming LA + Ele Sus with proc sets from range, sitting safely on top of a wall or inside a zerg. Worst way to design pressure.

OP isn't wrong, look at how NB got gutted for the crimes of Monomyth Reforged, which is what really drove the idiotic one shot meta in PvP more than subclassing or Assassination.

This is what we're afraid of, WW getting sent back to the perma timeout corner before the refresh even makes it to Live because of interactions with a few specific things. Above average players will be able to squeeze a lot of strength out of WW regardless of what they're using but the average and below average person won't.

I just want WW to remain on par with other 1bar builds. It doesn't seem too much of an ask that a melee-only build that has a number of drawbacks has a bit more damage than other melee builds, since we don't have access to Shields or Purges or numerous other things. But if we keep getting nerfs then WW will just ultimately wind up worse than every Class once they get around to reworking everything.

Tommy_The_Gun · May 5

WW still lacks CC removal skill... Something that is kinda required to do most content...

dark_hunterxmg · May 5

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

WW still lacks CC removal skill... Something that is kinda required to do most content...

Meanwhile we get snared just for being near a DK, and then snared harder when we get in their circle, and then snared even harder still when they leap. None of which seem to be mitigated by immovable potions.

VinnyGambini · May 5

Imo just nerf signet furher in pvp. Instead of half damage, make it 25%.

Wuuffyy · May 5

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Imo just nerf signet furher in pvp. Instead of half damage, make it 25%.

There is no world in which we try and balance this mythic in which it should interact with werewolf. I don’t care if it’s 1%. Coming from a long time werewolf player on this one (this item and sorc/warden masteries are such bullschnap, they have ruined balancing this whole PTS for us).