Nerfing WW further in Next Update for PvE?!

coop500 · May 4

Don't worry, today's nerfs missed the mark entirely and we'll get even more nerfs next week, yay. Continue your complaining, also buff DK even more.

Dracane · May 4

And Static Reverberation... I am so happy. More passive proc damage that plays the game for us that will be abused by certain builds.

Wuuffyy · May 4

coop500 wrote: »

Oh look another Signet mythic build, yay. Never saw those before.

I do also appreciate when my poisoned status ticks amount to 10k DPS on werewolf. Ah yes, the poisonous werewolf.

Wuuffyy · May 4

Dracane wrote: »

And Static Reverberation... I am so happy. More passive proc damage that plays the game for us that will be abused by certain builds.

I’m wondering who or what they are analyzing atp xD honestly.

Dracane · May 4

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

And Static Reverberation... I am so happy. More passive proc damage that plays the game for us that will be abused by certain builds.

I’m wondering who or what they are analyzing atp xD honestly.

I did like the reasoning. It sounded like they moved away (and admitted) from nerfing around dummy parses and instead account for real world scenarios. Great, more of it, but passive proc damage is not the way. Static Reverberation was extremely broken during Week 1, and now it's actually stronger in some aspects.

YandereGirlfriend · May 4

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

people out here complaining about 1 bar WW parsing 140k+ without signet, yet sorcs barely parse that same number (if they're uber lucky with insane crit rng) on a 2 bar full weaving setup once sorcs parse cheese (signet, overload, travelling knife and monolith) has been completely removed, yet every non-sorc out here crying about a clickbait 220k (that has since been nerfed to sub-180k) cheesed parse and that sorc needs even more nerfs despite that cheesed parse no longer being possible with the existing nerfs that took even parse cheese sorcerer to below even warden and NB DPS levels...

And I resent that they want to buff Static Reverberation back up to fix this, which is just too broken in pvp on some builds instead of raising Font of Power, which is very low in value on the majority of builds and healthier to raise than Static.

I get 850+ weapon damage on my magsorc. I dont understand why you keep insisting its weak. Its a really strong passive, the single strongest weapon damage passive offered to pure classes because its a mainly selfish passive. Ofc its not strong on 25-26k resource pool but you can easily reach 40k stamina or magicka with 0 trouble, not even using max mag or stam items, just race and food and hakeijo enchants. I dont get at what threshold you would be satisfied at, 1.2k weapon damage at 40k resource pool?

Though i agree that static should 100% remain at 0.5 sec cd with battle spirit active, that would be a goated change if the dev team makes that seperation between pve and pvp.

It's not even close to being the strongest amongst class masteries. Have you looked at other spell/weapon damage masteries? And no normal and efficient damage build even has 40k magicka. To get 40k magicka, you already have to start making some inconvenient choices that nullify the damage gained. You always have to see it in relation and in the whole picture. Any amount of magicka you stack, also costs you weapon damage elsewhere, or crit damage.

So you do not truly gain 850 weapon damage. You already made some bad choice to get there, and the bad choices only mount as you go. Magicka is the worst way to raise damage, even for Sorc with all its modifiers. Other classes get their weapon damage without any altercations by just doing what they already do. Not to mention Warden and Nightblade, who get more than 2x this amount you mentioned.

So indeed, Font of Power needs a considerable buff.

Yes i did, the next best one is 600 with templar but ofcourse it also gives weapon damage to teammates so it makes sense that its weaker on the user. You also get 300 for arcanists, and imo 3 crux every 15 seconds doesnt make up for the raw weapon damage, what else is there really for weapon damage passives? The 1.6k warden one? Thats weapon damage to your skills, yes its strong but its not going to really help you with healing yourself unless you yourself have a billion status effects affecting you for example and 1 extended ritual and its all gone, not to mention the passive basically needs you to be on serpents disdain to even use properly.

Yes sorc has the best pure class weapon damage passive in the game and no i dont agree that it should be balanced on 25-30k range. Of course you arent going to be able to take advantage of the passive if you dont build into it, thats a given imo.

You are missing the point. Building into it is why it's so bad. Building magicka is the single worse decision you can make. Font of Power makes it less bad, but if you run the math per point of magicka compared to one point of weapon damage, it barely tips the scale because you also lost too much damage elsewhere to raise that fancy tooltip.

Font of Power changes magicka stacking from being a meme and self sabotage to being viable (only in pvp, mind you) but max mag sorcs still get farmed by normal builds. I have seen it plentifully on the PTS in Riften.

Why would you ever build for max magicka when building for pen, or crit or even just weapon damage is that much stronger? The only reason is to boost damage shields, which are still memes mostly. That's why almost no one uses them over HoT stacking.

Then build stamina

I'm not even memeing, i know you know that people did this in pts and had great results

Those I saw did not have great results. Building stamina makes no sense at all either. With magicka you can make the point that wards scale only off of it, but for stamina there is no such reason.

But go ahead and gimp your build. It won't be my problem that you do not understand how bad building for magicka is and you wonder where your damage is.

I told you to build stam and you are again trying to talk about mag again? You dont have to build magicka, no one is forcing you.
We are no longer bound to ward for defense, we got healing soul, its one of the best burst heals in the game.

Hell i dont even use ward on my sorc on live servers. We cant have this passive be balanced for 25k resource pool while not having it be broken for the easily reachible 40k+ range

Now go into the NB Nerf thread and tell the NBs that they should just subclass and stop whinging because they're choosing to self-nerf by wanting to play pureBlade.

Which is exactly what you are saying about MagSorc.

Arunei · May 4

Dracane wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what build is actually parsing 200-220k DPS now?

Werewolf (not my parse):

WW in the last week was the highest parsing spec in the game - a statement that it's worse than one-bar builds doesn't make any sense, when it outparses all two-bar builds.

What is even going on? Whenever I think it's fine, people somehow break Werewolf again. How can a 5 button spec house so many sudden revelations on a weekly basis?

I mean, it's obvious in that screenshot they're still using Signet, since WW can't apply Poison or Burning in any other way. A decent chunk of that damage is coming from the boosted status effects. Hell, the Hemorrhaging effect is doing almost as much as Bloody Gnash in Execute range it looks like. Add the Burning and Poisoned ticks and together those three statuses ARE doing more damage than a Skill in Execute range. THAT'S what the problem is, NOT WW itself. It's completely disengenuous for that person to act like WW in general is super OP when the Mythic they're using is doing a lot of the heavy lifting.

So like...can we NOT keep nerfing WW because of broken interactions with a Mythic that needs tuning? Or just decrease the effectiveness of it when it's put on a WW? ANYTHING but "lol nerf WW more and more and more over bad interactions with specific things instead of addressing those specific things!"?

Wuuffyy · May 4

@Arunei, well can apply up to 2 at random with enchants but yes you’re not bumping your ‘poisoned’ DPS or ‘burning DPS’ to 10k on werewolf without outside help for sure.

Let alone is it (depending on context) significantly overtaking your main spammable in combined damage without these outside factors.

IncultaWolf · May 4

coop500 wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what build is actually parsing 200-220k DPS now?

Werewolf (not my parse):

WW in the last week was the highest parsing spec in the game - a statement that it's worse than one-bar builds doesn't make any sense, when it outparses all two-bar builds.

Oh look another Signet mythic build, yay. Never saw those before.

Yeah signet is absolutely broken on everything right now even in pvp. I fully expect the mythic to get adjusted after the event ends. I feel like they released it absurdly strong on purpose to give incentives to participate in the Night Market.

Wuuffyy · May 4

@Arunei, on class masteries again please just>>>

Class mastery (sorc/warden damage):

Sorc and Warden have been underperforming for quite some time in PvE. It makes sense for the 'class mastery' passives to be strong. With that being said, these class masteries are far too volatile in their current state for werewolf. Disable these particular 'class mastery' passives for werewolf (for now until at least their reworks).

If able/needed, feel free to provide werewolf its own version of 'class mastery' instead. This would be 5 passives, choice of 2 focus on VERY SMALL damage increases (so like 4-8% somehow or another on 2 damage passives), then it could be 'hircine's fortitude shares 50% of healing value to other werewolves in melee range', 'when activating rampage, purge all negative effects', etc. etc. or simply all, small generic buff choices for now.

Arunei · May 4

Wuuffyy wrote: »

@Arunei, well can apply up to 2 at random with enchants but yes you’re not bumping your ‘poisoned’ DPS or ‘burning DPS’ to 10k on werewolf without outside help for sure.

Let alone is it (depending on context) significantly overtaking your main spammable in combined damage without these outside factors.

Are people using Burn/Poison enchants though? And do the Weapon Enchants proc in WW form? If so it's weird we get Enchant procs on Weapons but not Weapon Passives, I'd assume having to be able to detect Weapons on to apply Enchants would be the same system that would detect Weapons for their Passives. Though I suppose detecting Weapons isn't the same as detecting specific Weapons...

Either way, it ultimately doesn't matter if those statuses were applied by Signet or Enchants since yeah, those damage numbers won't get that high without Signet regardless. I don't know if I've seen a Hemorrhage status hit that hard before (crap memory for the win, thanks ADHD lol), the fact that it's doing almost as much as a Skill in Execute range feels crazy.

Wuuffyy · May 4

@Arunei Yurr, you can test on live now or PTS. On either/or major expedition for bow (please don’t remove) continues to work.

So we have always had a select few working weapon passives and things like enchants/poisons have also worked (please never, ever, ever consider removing this I beg of thee).

Arunei · May 4

Oh 100% on not removing Weapon Enchants from applying to WW. What literally is the point of it if basic procs from Gear that ISN'T an overtuned Mythic gets removed from them? At that point just disable Set procs too, you know?

(This is sarcasm by no meams do I actually want that.)

They really do need to just disable Signet on WW and actually, instead of disabling Mastery Passives on WW, just slap a "Mastery Passives are reduced in effectiveness on transformed WWs by X%" where the X can be like 40 or 50 or whatever.

ETA: We won't be getting any WW Mastery Passives for a couple of updates at least, if at all, but yes that would be incredible if they could do it. Honestly I'm surprised they didn't seem to consider it for the WW rework, it seems like a huge oversight imo.

MSattrtand · May 4

N.B.: That's all in the context of PvE.

I don't understand why you think that Signet is so OP, and it's the only thing that allows WW to deal reasonable damage. Also, why do you consider it so cheesy? It's not that impractical for WW.

Sorc has to run Atro in content, and therefore loses all ultimate, unlike on dummy, where you can turn on/off Overload - Signet is impractical. As for Den, it's slightly better - bear's damage for activating is whatever, so you're mostly losing burst damage from Northern Storm. For WW, it's harder to keep your form (but still possible), and you're not losing any burst, since you can't cast your ult anyway - there's no problem in using it.

Here you can enjoy my WW parses from the current week:

174k with Selene:

177.9k with Warmask:

192k with Signet:

Both cheeseless Selene (probably) and slightly cheesy Warmask (for sure) parses could be pushed over 180k by someone who can parse (unlike me), and 180k is the highest parse for DK (with Warmask). So, even without Signet, which you don't like, WW can have completely reasonable DPS. Are these options worse than Signet DPS-wise? Yes, but not much worse.

Turtle_Bot · May 5

MSattrtand wrote: »

N.B.: That's all in the context of PvE.

I don't understand why you think that Signet is so OP, and it's the only thing that allows WW to deal reasonable damage. Also, why do you consider it so cheesy? It's not that impractical for WW.

Sorc has to run Atro in content, and therefore loses all ultimate, unlike on dummy, where you can turn on/off Overload - Signet is impractical. As for Den, it's slightly better - bear's damage for activating is whatever, so you're mostly losing burst damage from Northern Storm. For WW, it's harder to keep your form (but still possible), and you're not losing any burst, since you can't cast your ult anyway - there's no problem in using it.

Here you can enjoy my WW parses from the current week:

174k with Selene:

177.9k with Warmask:

192k with Signet:

Both cheeseless Selene (probably) and slightly cheesy Warmask (for sure) parses could be pushed over 180k by someone who can parse (unlike me), and 180k is the highest parse for DK (with Warmask). So, even without Signet, which you don't like, WW can have completely reasonable DPS. Are these options worse than Signet DPS-wise? Yes, but not much worse.

Interesting, thanks for sharing these.

174k is more than respectable, especially for a non-signet parse and 192k with signet is up towards the top end as well. 174k without signet is probably up there among the top DPS parses currently.

MashmalloMan · May 5

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Well seems like WW will be stronger than a lot of subclassed setups in pve too. Pelican just posted 2 videos, parsin 185.7k (pve) and 101k (pvp) which is pretty crazy with just 3 skills.

Why is everyone overreacting to the nerfs?

NGL I don't fully trust what Pelican says, he hates WWs and will do anything to 'stick it to the furries'

I mean you can test it yourself on pts, he shows the builds in the videos as well (rele + aries cry). So you can fully replicate them yourself. And if it completely legit, at least to me 185.7k is huge damage in pve, considering the usual i see when im tanking.

Signet Ring too?
Also you're forgetting that damage is coming at a steep cost. To even use Aries cry you have to be a warden, so that's not WW power, that's class set power, which everyone is abusing.
That's also probably with the Signet ring mythic, which is also cracked and everyone is abusing.

All the while very limited, clunky cleave or Single Target only, melee only, and limited utility, and juggling your ultimate steadily declining every ten seconds. And we're getting nerfs soon.

Someone needs to provide a build NOT using broken sets like Signet and Aerie's Cry or it's just proving THOSE sets are over preforming.

In endgame pve you will be using the most op/bugged things. Rele was so used because it used to double proc, which was a bug. Even nulla arca is heavily overtuned and its widely used. So i wouldn't really blame op sets when they always end up being mandatory.

Besides, it doesn't seem like either of those sets are going to be nerfed at least until next patch.

Hate to break it to you, Relequen still double procs, it's entirely intentional the same way WW Berserker's light/heavy attack bleed double procs at max stacks. The same concept is used for burning, poisoned, and hemo, by allowing these effects to tick at 0s so as to reward applying them consistently. For Rele/WW, they tick on 1s, so they tick once on application, and once after the 1s GCD, then repeat.

You may be thinking of a dev note about introducing a 0.5s cooldown, this was just to stop rare cases where you could increase your light attack speed beyond the base 0.6s cooldown, but since this is higher than the 0.5s and typical rotations use 1s, the nerf didn't do anything.

The real reason people stopped using it is because the stat lines changed to pen/ws damage around the same time Null was buffed, which happens to also be single target without a light attack mini game and crit chance lines. It can also be front barred and used with long duration abilities such as Fatecarver.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · May 5

Well Werewolves were never supposed to be powerful on their own, that is why they require to run in a pack and why they have a passive for being grouped with other Werewolves, where were people getting this strange idea that they were supposed to be powerful solo when passives like that exist?

Wuuffyy · May 5

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Well Werewolves were never supposed to be powerful on their own, that is why they require to run in a pack and why they have a passive for being grouped with other Werewolves, where were people getting this strange idea that they were supposed to be powerful solo when passives like that exist?

Werewolves are certainly suppose to be powerful on their own (book/movie trope).

In terms of Morrowind (this game is closest to that in style; imo scribing is like that game’s spell crafting also) werewolf was an absolute beast with an unbeatable stat boost.

In Skyrim, once again, this game’s lore did not cite that you were significantly weaker alone. In fact, the one dude (can’t remember name) literally transforms in front of you and 1 v xs trained werewolf hunters. If anything, it’s the opposite and humans need to hunt you in packs just to stand a chance.

Game play wise in ESO or any game, especially for an MMO like this one where despite it being an MMO it largely caters to the single player/small scale experience for a hefty portion of the game (to that point we even have solo existing dungeons coming up) it doesn’t make sense for me to require other people to reach even 75%-85% of the efficiency everyone else has for free. Especially when lore wise, I should be ‘strong’ on my own.

Arunei · May 5

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Well Werewolves were never supposed to be powerful on their own, that is why they require to run in a pack and why they have a passive for being grouped with other Werewolves, where were people getting this strange idea that they were supposed to be powerful solo when passives like that exist?

What are you even talking about? There's a SINGLE Passive that lowers the Ult cost to stay in WW form. That's it. Please explain how that single thing is supposed to imply that WW is "required" to run in groups to be strong? I'm wanting to know where you got the strange idea that a single Passive equates being "required" to be in a WW group to be strong and weak alone.

That ONE Passive doesn't give any unique buffs. It doesn't have any kind of Synergy for a group. It doesn't have any interactions with other WW Skills than the Transformation. It doesn't give any kind of Shields. It doesn't give healing. It doesn't buff any stats. It doesn't debuff the enemy. It literally does NOTHING but lower the Ult drain for every WW in the group up to a certain amount. Which includes the transformed WW itself. Nothing about it, or any other WW Skill for that matter, implies at all that it's only meant to be strong in groups.

Let's not present our opinions as facts to argue for balancing.

@MSattrtand
Cool, now do that parse without a Trial dummy giving you all those buffs and in actual content forcing you to constantly move around, block, CC break, and so on, please. And tell us what other Sets/Mythics you're using instead of one part of the builds you used.

Berserker can ONLY reliably hold form if they a) have something they can consistently Devour during a fight, or b) go into a fight with somewhere around 300-400 Ult minimum so you have time to get enough Fury to proc Rampage. Which makes it pointless to make the form take only 100 Ult to pop when you're just going to get thrown out of the form over and over. They really need to adjust how much the Ult drain costs and it makes 0 sense that they've implemented that to test it imo.

At any rate, I said this in the WW Feedback thread, but we aren't trying to advocate for WW to get buffed or anything. We're worried that it's going to keep getting nerfed over and over to the point where the whole reason for the refresh (which was, big shock, to make it STRONGER) is lost. Other things have gotten big enough nerfs that people are upset. We're worried it's going to happen to WW.

MSattrtand · May 5

Arunei wrote: »

@MSattrtand
Cool, now do that parse without a Trial dummy giving you all those buffs and in actual content forcing you to constantly move around, block, CC break, and so on, please. And tell us what other Sets/Mythics you're using instead of one part of the builds you used.

Berserker can ONLY reliably hold form if they a) have something they can consistently Devour during a fight, or b) go into a fight with somewhere around 300-400 Ult minimum so you have time to get enough Fury to proc Rampage. Which makes it pointless to make the form take only 100 Ult to pop when you're just going to get thrown out of the form over and over. They really need to adjust how much the Ult drain costs and it makes 0 sense that they've implemented that to test it imo.

The point of parsing on the trial dummy is to parse in a controlled environment, where you can easily compare builds with each other. Everyone loses damage if they have to do mechs instead of just parsing. My build was Savage Werewolf on body, Perfected Mora Scribe's Thesis on weapons, and Selene, Wamask+1-piece crit or Signet+1-piece crit.

But no problem. Parsing on the 6 mil dummy, so only with my own buffs. Full dummy parse set-up (which is likely not optimal - I'm underpenning like hell), but Rip and Tear instead of Bloody Gnash to provide at least some pen. No heroism potions, since the average person won't use them.

Starting with 133 ultimate and full fury:

Starting with 228 ultimate and no fury:

Bonus: full 25 mil dummy kill. Starting with 249 ultimate and no fury:

Do you see something interesting on the graph? Correct. At the end of the parse, I have more ultimate than I had at the start - I'm generating ultimate even with Minor Timidity from Signet draining it.

Bonus 2: full 25 mil dummy kill. Now with Warmask instead of Signet. Starting with 257 ultimate and no fury. So no Timidity, and I also took points out of Catalyst so that I won't be getting ultimate for drinking potions:

Well, without Minor Timidity, I would hit 500 ultimate after some time (and I was getting to 500 during my parse with Catalyst).

Therefore, with all confidence, I dare to state that Werewolf Berserk can sustain in content even while hitting only one target.

Also, if we are considering soloing, here's my parse on Arcanist from the previous patch on the 6 mil dummy, just to compare DPS. Full ultimate, 3 crux, Reaving Blows+Crit Surge to have the same HPS as WW, heroism potions. Basically, the build that gave me multiple Spirit Slayers while I was farming Vateshran weapons:

Well, that's lower than WW, and I'm not even underpenning. And sustain is worse. And, IMHO, harder to play. And it suffers more if it needs to block/dodge, since you have to interrupt beaming. Of course, Arca has higher cleave, I won't argue about that, and this cleave will lead to higher HPS in content where you can beam multiple enemies. But in single target situations... Arca is worse for soloing?

So please, stop saying that WW is borderline unplayable when it's in a great state.

Arunei · May 6

@MSattrtand
First thing to address, where am I saying WW is borderline unplayable? Please don't put words in my mouth that I never said in order to make an argument. I've said that Berserker form is too hard to maintain without things to Devour because in my own testing and that others have done, using Oakensorc/Heroism Pots for the increased Ult Gen doesn't help and a number of us are NOT ending the battles with more Ult than we started with unless we're going into battle with 3-400 Ult so you have time to pop Rampage. I think I've seen one or two people have it where they've had more Ult at the end of the battle than they started with, but that's NOT what myself and plenty of others have experienced. I did math in another thread that shows how little Fury you get in ten seconds, I'd have to dig through my other posts for it because idr which thread it was posted in, but most people are having form sustain issues for Berserker.

Next up, I think the biggest thing is the massive difference in DPS between unpotimized builds and the parses you were pulling on the Trial Dummy. Also I've never understood how people can say static numbers against a target that doesn't fight back and force you to do mechanics an actual fight would are somehow the numbers that get put out as the standard, rather than numbers from actual fights. Because as you yourself said, a person's ACTUAL damage will be lower in live fights than parses done dummy humping, so why are these inflated numbers the ones that are put out as being what people are doing in live fights? It genuinely makes 0 sense to me and I think this is where player feedback and nerfs based on it is a big problem. You can't properly adjust stuff when you're looking at static numbers rather than the numbers from actual fights.

All that aside, like I said there's a huge difference in the DPS you posted with the Trial Dummy and the normal Dummy. Like...roughly 80-90k DPS differences on the low end. And yeah, that's probably closer to what an average person will get, because a) they WON'T have all the Trial Dummy buffs, b) they WON'T be running endgame-level Gear, and c) they WON'T be operating at the same skill level as someone who can do the content to get that endgame-level Gear. Heck, the average player might not even be able to hit near the numbers shown in this round of screens, because the average player isn't going to bother doing a proper rotation to buff Fury generation, to buff their Claw Fury right, to use their own Bood Frenzy Synergy, to make use of the Blood Hunger mech, and so on.

WW IS at a good spot now. I never said it wasn't. What I DID say was if WW keeps getting nerfed when it doesn't need to be, it will end up being pointless to play because every other 1bar build will just keep outperforming it like it is on Live. What I AM saying is not to neuter WW before its rework even makes it to Live. What I AM saying is that of course reworked WW should be stronger than other 1bar builds of Classes that haven't been reworked yet. Just like of course Live DK is stronger than other non-reworked Classes, but even now you have people yelling to nerf DK because it's too strong. OF COURSE IT IS. A Class CANNOT be made stronger after a rework and NOT be stronger than things that haven't been, that's impossible.

It's the exact same for WW. People keep going "it's too strong it's too strong" and COMPLETELY ignore the fact that, YES. It SHOULD be stronger than things that haven't gotten a rework yet. It WON'T be once those things get their rework, if they do those reworks properly it should be on par with other 1bar builds. But in no way should people be asking for nerfs and only be happy when a REWORKED PLAYSTYLE winds up being equal to or even worse than UNWORKED PLAYSTYLES. Because I've asked it several times by now, but what's even the point of the refresh if things will just wind up being the same as they are now?

MSattrtand · May 6

Arunei wrote: »

@MSattrtand

I've said that Berserker form is too hard to maintain without things to Devour because in my own testing and that others have done, using Oakensorc/Heroism Pots for the increased Ult Gen doesn't help and a number of us are NOT ending the battles with more Ult than we started with unless we're going into battle with 3-400 Ult so you have time to pop Rampage. I think I've seen one or two people have it where they've had more Ult at the end of the battle than they started with, but that's NOT what myself and plenty of others have experienced. I did math in another thread that shows how little Fury you get in ten seconds, I'd have to dig through my other posts for it because idr which thread it was posted in, but most people are having form sustain issues for Berserker.

I haven't found your math, so I decided to do it myself:

Ultimate drain is 68 ultimate per 10 seconds (with passive), or 6.8 per second. You are getting at least 3 ult per second for doing light attacks at least sometimes. Rampage lasts 20 seconds, and during it, you don't spend ultimate. Let R be your Rampage uptime, then 1-R is the time that you spend without Rampage. During R time, your ulti drain is 0 during 1-R time, your ulti drain is 6.8. On average, your ulti drain is R*0 + (1-R)*6.8 = 6.8-6.8R. At the same time, your ulti gain will be 3. You wanna this inequality to be true: 6.8 - 6.8R < 3, to avoid dropping out of your form. Simplification: 6.8R > 3.8 -> R > 0.55. What can we say from it? You need to have at least 55% Rampage uptime to keep your WW form. 55% Rampage uptime is casting it every 36 seconds. For it, you need to generate 27 Fury per second. With Minor Heroism from Oakensoul, Heroism Potions, Fire Keeper or allied Heroism Banner, you need at least 46% Uptime on Rampage, or generate 23 Fury per second. You're getting 25 for just casting skills every GCD, then 25 from every Feral Pounce tick, which happens every 2 seconds, so it's another 12.5 Fury per second; do not forget about Hircine's Bounty, which gives double the amount of Fury per cast, so it's another 25 Fury every 20 seconds or 1.25 Fury per second. In the best case, you're getting 38.75 Fury per second - you can cast Rampage every ~26 seconds for 75% uptime on it - that's what I actually observe. It doesn't look like Berserker should have big problems with keeping its form.

Therefore, with all confidence, I dare to state once again that Werewolf Berserk can sustain in content even while hitting only one target. If you can't, well, I can't advise anything but casting skills - even with casting skill only 2 GCDs, you'll be getting enough Fury to keep your form.

Arunei wrote: »

Next up, I think the biggest thing is the massive difference in DPS between unpotimized builds and the parses you were pulling on the Trial Dummy. Also I've never understood how people can say static numbers against a target that doesn't fight back and force you to do mechanics an actual fight would are somehow the numbers that get put out as the standard, rather than numbers from actual fights. Because as you yourself said, a person's ACTUAL damage will be lower in live fights than parses done dummy humping, so why are these inflated numbers the ones that are put out as being what people are doing in live fights? It genuinely makes 0 sense to me and I think this is where player feedback and nerfs based on it is a big problem. You can't properly adjust stuff when you're looking at static numbers rather than the numbers from actual fights.

Why do you think that DPS in real content should definitely be lower? I only said that if you have to do mechs, your DPS will be lower than if you could just parse. Here you can enjoy some parses (not mine) from real content:

270k on Vrol:

196k on Bahsei:

220k on Oaxiltso:

449k on Zhaj'hassa:

Well, that's higher than we usually get on dummy, despite people doing some mechs. Therefore, in some cases, a dummy parse would be even worse than what you can get in real content. As I mentioned, it's still a standard way of measuring ST DPS, because it provides common group buffs in a controlled environment. It's really hard to compare damage in actual content since it will depend on the exact fight, group comp, group buffs/debuffs, and strat. I won't be surprised, if after U50 goes live, we'll see 200k+ WW parse on Vrol.

Arunei wrote: »

All that aside, like I said, there's a huge difference in the DPS you posted with the Trial Dummy and the normal Dummy. Like...roughly 80-90k DPS differences on the low end. And yeah, that's probably closer to what an average person will get, because a) they WON'T have all the Trial Dummy buffs, b) they WON'T be running endgame-level Gear, and c) they WON'T be operating at the same skill level as someone who can do the content to get that endgame-level Gear. Heck, the average player might not even be able to hit near the numbers shown in this round of screens, because the average player isn't going to bother doing a proper rotation to buff Fury generation, to buff their Claw Fury right, to use their own Bood Frenzy Synergy, to make use of the Blood Hunger mech, and so on.

Correct. DPS difference is huge. And it still outparses my Arcanist in endgame level gear. But here you can enjoy my 80k parse on 6 mil dummy without endgame gear - two crafted sets and monster set from a base game dungeon:

I started with full Fury, so it would be fair to compare it to my 87k parse in endgame gear - the difference is not even that big, but well, I said, that that endgame build wasn't optimised - I got 103k with it after just putting Mora on body and Savage Werewolf on weapons to get more pen and some little tweaks. Gear would not double your DPS, but group buffs/debuffs will.

Regarding rotation: there are two DoTs, two buffs, one spammable and an ultimate. If one can't recast DoTs/buffs on expiration and use spammable when DoTs/buffs are up, well, that's sad, but they won't be able to hit good numbers on any build, not just on WW. There's no point in balancing specs around people who can't properly play them.

autocookies · May 7

deleted

MSattrtand · May 7

autocookies wrote: »

I hadn’t taken into consideration that you could potentially keep healing yourself during downtime to generate Fury while the boss is away, or temporarily drop form to preserve some Ultimate.

Technically, you can play as a mag WW. In this case, you'll have a higher magicka pool to keep recasting Hircine's Rage to gain Fury in downtime. Stam sustain isn't a big problem, since your skills are very cheap or even free during Rampage. Just need to be careful if this encounter requires blocking and dodging a lot.

autocookies wrote: »

However, to sustain endless healing, you would need to swap to Magicka sustain food, which means giving up Pack Leader Bone Broth

Pack Leader Bone Broth isn't really worth it, since it gives less HP (=less survivability) and less Stamina (=less damage) than regular bistat food. And the transformation cost reduction is... useless? For Berserker, the cost goes from 68 to 63 ultimate per 10 seconds, and for Pack leader, it goes from 36 to 31 ultimate per 10 seconds. So it will reduce your ultimate drain by 0.5 ult per second. As I've shown, even Berserker should be able to sustain its form with some room for error.

autocookies wrote: »

On the other hand, I still feel this is a lot of micromanagement to expect from new players who want to try werewolf, which is my side of the argument.

Well, if someone can't sustain Berserker, they can't go Pack Leader. Again, it's 36 ultimate drain every 10 seconds, or 3.6 ultimate per second. If you're doing light attacks to trigger ultigen and have Minor Heroism, those will give you 3.66 ult per second gain, and you can't drop out of this form. And if you do not have Minor Heroism, you need 16% Rampage uptime - that's using Rampage... at least once every two minutes? And Pack Leader is not that bad DPS-wise, especially without Signet that amplifies Haemorrhage from Berserker's bleeds.

autocookies wrote: »

Also, what if you were in a core group and needed to hold Ultimates for specific parts of the fight?

I can use Rampage every 27 seconds or so, and it lasts 20 seconds - this gives 74% Rampage uptimes. That's enough to keep your form even as Berserker. If 7 seconds of Rampage downtime aligns with a burst phase, I can cast it 7 seconds later. 20 seconds of Rampage every 34 seconds is 58% Rampage uptime, and that's still enough to keep form. This won't be enough with Signet and no Minor Heroism, but in content where this actually matters, I would expect getting it from Heroism Potion, Heroism Banner of Fire Keeper. And in this case, you'll also be getting ultimate from Pillager's Profit.

Pinktraining · May 8

I completely agree that WW should be nerfed in PvE. How can a "non-class playstyle" using only 6 skills be allowed to achieve higher DPS more easily than class players who painstakingly practice 2-bar skills?

No, hasn't the impact of HA-Sorc on the game been enough to teach people a lesson? Almost all end-game games are HA-Sorc, it's enough already. WW should be nerfed along with Sorc, giving other classes a chance to enter end-game games.

autocookies · May 8

deleted

Arunei · 2:15AM

MSattrtand wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

@MSattrtand

I've said that Berserker form is too hard to maintain without things to Devour because in my own testing and that others have done, using Oakensorc/Heroism Pots for the increased Ult Gen doesn't help and a number of us are NOT ending the battles with more Ult than we started with unless we're going into battle with 3-400 Ult so you have time to pop Rampage. I think I've seen one or two people have it where they've had more Ult at the end of the battle than they started with, but that's NOT what myself and plenty of others have experienced. I did math in another thread that shows how little Fury you get in ten seconds, I'd have to dig through my other posts for it because idr which thread it was posted in, but most people are having form sustain issues for Berserker.

I haven't found your math, so I decided to do it myself:

Ultimate drain is 68 ultimate per 10 seconds (with passive), or 6.8 per second. You are getting at least 3 ult per second for doing light attacks at least sometimes. Rampage lasts 20 seconds, and during it, you don't spend ultimate. Let R be your Rampage uptime, then 1-R is the time that you spend without Rampage. During R time, your ulti drain is 0 during 1-R time, your ulti drain is 6.8. On average, your ulti drain is R*0 + (1-R)*6.8 = 6.8-6.8R. At the same time, your ulti gain will be 3. You wanna this inequality to be true: 6.8 - 6.8R < 3, to avoid dropping out of your form. Simplification: 6.8R > 3.8 -> R > 0.55. What can we say from it? You need to have at least 55% Rampage uptime to keep your WW form. 55% Rampage uptime is casting it every 36 seconds. For it, you need to generate 27 Fury per second. With Minor Heroism from Oakensoul, Heroism Potions, Fire Keeper or allied Heroism Banner, you need at least 46% Uptime on Rampage, or generate 23 Fury per second. You're getting 25 for just casting skills every GCD, then 25 from every Feral Pounce tick, which happens every 2 seconds, so it's another 12.5 Fury per second; do not forget about Hircine's Bounty, which gives double the amount of Fury per cast, so it's another 25 Fury every 20 seconds or 1.25 Fury per second. In the best case, you're getting 38.75 Fury per second - you can cast Rampage every ~26 seconds for 75% uptime on it - that's what I actually observe. It doesn't look like Berserker should have big problems with keeping its form.

Therefore, with all confidence, I dare to state once again that Werewolf Berserk can sustain in content even while hitting only one target. If you can't, well, I can't advise anything but casting skills - even with casting skill only 2 GCDs, you'll be getting enough Fury to keep your form.

Arunei wrote: »

Next up, I think the biggest thing is the massive difference in DPS between unpotimized builds and the parses you were pulling on the Trial Dummy. Also I've never understood how people can say static numbers against a target that doesn't fight back and force you to do mechanics an actual fight would are somehow the numbers that get put out as the standard, rather than numbers from actual fights. Because as you yourself said, a person's ACTUAL damage will be lower in live fights than parses done dummy humping, so why are these inflated numbers the ones that are put out as being what people are doing in live fights? It genuinely makes 0 sense to me and I think this is where player feedback and nerfs based on it is a big problem. You can't properly adjust stuff when you're looking at static numbers rather than the numbers from actual fights.

Why do you think that DPS in real content should definitely be lower? I only said that if you have to do mechs, your DPS will be lower than if you could just parse. Here you can enjoy some parses (not mine) from real content:

270k on Vrol:

196k on Bahsei:

220k on Oaxiltso:

449k on Zhaj'hassa:

Well, that's higher than we usually get on dummy, despite people doing some mechs. Therefore, in some cases, a dummy parse would be even worse than what you can get in real content. As I mentioned, it's still a standard way of measuring ST DPS, because it provides common group buffs in a controlled environment. It's really hard to compare damage in actual content since it will depend on the exact fight, group comp, group buffs/debuffs, and strat. I won't be surprised, if after U50 goes live, we'll see 200k+ WW parse on Vrol.

Arunei wrote: »

All that aside, like I said, there's a huge difference in the DPS you posted with the Trial Dummy and the normal Dummy. Like...roughly 80-90k DPS differences on the low end. And yeah, that's probably closer to what an average person will get, because a) they WON'T have all the Trial Dummy buffs, b) they WON'T be running endgame-level Gear, and c) they WON'T be operating at the same skill level as someone who can do the content to get that endgame-level Gear. Heck, the average player might not even be able to hit near the numbers shown in this round of screens, because the average player isn't going to bother doing a proper rotation to buff Fury generation, to buff their Claw Fury right, to use their own Bood Frenzy Synergy, to make use of the Blood Hunger mech, and so on.

Correct. DPS difference is huge. And it still outparses my Arcanist in endgame level gear. But here you can enjoy my 80k parse on 6 mil dummy without endgame gear - two crafted sets and monster set from a base game dungeon:

I started with full Fury, so it would be fair to compare it to my 87k parse in endgame gear - the difference is not even that big, but well, I said, that that endgame build wasn't optimised - I got 103k with it after just putting Mora on body and Savage Werewolf on weapons to get more pen and some little tweaks. Gear would not double your DPS, but group buffs/debuffs will.

Regarding rotation: there are two DoTs, two buffs, one spammable and an ultimate. If one can't recast DoTs/buffs on expiration and use spammable when DoTs/buffs are up, well, that's sad, but they won't be able to hit good numbers on any build, not just on WW. There's no point in balancing specs around people who can't properly play them.

Been dealing with fatigue thanks to fricken long Covid so this is a bit late.

I can admit being wrong about parses ALWAYS being higher than actual content, but I will never understand the point of using parses as the standard when it can be much lower OR higher than the actual content. I can get it's to get "standard" numbers for builds but there can't ever really BE a standard for builds because a build's effectiveness GREATLY depends on the skill of the person using it. You give an experienced player a build and rotation and give that same exact setup to the average player, the more experienced person will ALWAYS come out with better numbers. Which is to be expected, but it really only points out that "standard" numbers really only apply to the above average and top players, not the average player.

Regarding Berserker Form sustain, you can see from various other people that I'm NOT the only one having a problem with it. I've mentioned before even with LAs to keep generating Ult, even using Oakensoul, I do not get enough Ult to stay in WW Form long enough TO GET to Rampage in order to stop the timer. I'm far from the only one having this problem and it was such an issue that ZOS even tweaked things some to try and make staying in form a bit easier. I've said it so many times by now: What's the point of lowering the cost to transform to 100 Ult if you're just going to need to get 300-ish minimum to have enough time activate Rampage? You do NOT generate enough Fury before that 100 Ult drains, and I'm using 100 as a baseline because a) that's what the Ult costs to use and b) after you lose your form for the first time, unless you are again waiting until you have more Ult to transform, you aren't getting enough Ult to keep WW going so you can proc Rampage. I tested earlier this week to see if WW form was easier to maintain after the tweak and if anything it felt worse.

You know what else can hit 100k+ DPS with only a few button pushes? 1bar DK builds. Other 1bar builds still hit for more than that with Classes that haven't even had a rework yet, and here again people are trying to act like that's actually a comparison. Can we please stop saying WW is too OP when compared to Classes that haven't gotten their rework yet as a reason why it needs to be nerfed? It will be stronger because those Classes HAVE NOT BEEN REWORKED YET. Including other 1bar builds, probably a number of 2bar builds. But we're seeing the same argument with WW now that we saw with DK: "It's too strong compared to X unworked thing so nerf it so it's not so OP!" How are things supposed to be made stronger if people continuously call for nerfs so they're equal to stuff that hasn't been refreshed yet? I genuinely don't understand that thought process of "somehow make reworked X thing better while making sure it's not stronger than unworked Y thing".

And while you might think it's "sad" that there are people who can't even handle 1bar rotations (and let's face it, to get the most out of WW it's not just 'press 1 2 and 3 and you win' it's double casting Fercious Roar to stack for Claw Fury, it's making sure to proc your own Blood Frenzy, it's properly knowing when to use your Execute and when not to, there's the Blood Hunger mechanic, it might not be much to a seasoned player but it's disengenuous to try to say just press 3 buttons and you win), it's been brought up by the devs in the past that the average person doesn't do very high DPS regardless. All this "WW is too strong because it can hit super high numbers with just some button presses" talk is ignoring that most people who play WW will NOT have optimal Gear. They WON'T have a decent Mythic, if they have one at all. They WON'T be paying attention to/refreshing their DoTs properly. They WON'T be doing much of anything other than probably spamming Flaw Fury or Rip and Tear because they "look cool" or something. And they most certainly won't be getting a bunch of buffs from optimized group play because a LOT of people don't do that kind of content. Just look at how many people are saying they don't like the NM because of being ""encouraged"" to group.

We can point at what experienced (aka above average and top) players can do and say "this is too much damage" but one has to be able to admit that mot people will NOT be hitting these extreme numbers that people have been showing. What we WILL be seeing is more around the 80-90k damage, and even that's probably a high expectation for most of the playerbase. But we already HAVE other 1bar builds on Live that can EASILY hit those numbers, like so easy it's kinda ridiculous, and that's on Classes that haven't even been reworked yet.

So tell us again how reworked WW being able to hit those numbers is somehow bad when other Classes that haven't even got their refreshes yet can do that and more on a 1bar build? Even though by all means it SHOULD be stronger than non-reworked Classes.

Edit because I keep getting Hircine's Rage mixed up with Ferocious Roar fsr.

Arunei · 2:24AM

Pinktraining wrote: »

I completely agree that WW should be nerfed in PvE. How can a "non-class playstyle" using only 6 skills be allowed to achieve higher DPS more easily than class players who painstakingly practice 2-bar skills?

No, hasn't the impact of HA-Sorc on the game been enough to teach people a lesson? Almost all end-game games are HA-Sorc, it's enough already. WW should be nerfed along with Sorc, giving other classes a chance to enter end-game games.

Literally any Class has SOME 1bar build that is capable of hitting the same damage or near to it on Live right now that average PTS WW can, so let's not act like it's some outlier, nor HA Sorc.

How about intead of being salty and selfish and demanding things we don't like get nerfed, we ask instead for the things we like to get buffed? And we keep in mind that literally only DK has had it rework so far, a point a lot of people seem to REALLY enjoy overlooking/ignoring.

Wuuffyy · 2:33AM

Arunei wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

I completely agree that WW should be nerfed in PvE. How can a "non-class playstyle" using only 6 skills be allowed to achieve higher DPS more easily than class players who painstakingly practice 2-bar skills?

No, hasn't the impact of HA-Sorc on the game been enough to teach people a lesson? Almost all end-game games are HA-Sorc, it's enough already. WW should be nerfed along with Sorc, giving other classes a chance to enter end-game games.

Literally any Class has SOME 1bar build that is capable of hitting the same damage or near to it on Live right now that PTS WW can, so let's not act like it's some outlier, nor HA Sorc.

How about intead of being salty and selfish and demanding things we don't like get nerfed, we ask instead for the things we like to get buffed? And we keep in mind that literally only DK has had it rework so far, a point a lot of people seem to REALLY enjoy overlooking/ignoring.

They need to eliminate Signet for werewolf. If you barred Feral for its toxic interaction... you should bar werewolf. I see no rationale thought beyond this.

pluvioisaplanet · 7:35AM

I've parsed a lot of werewolf during this PTS even though I do not care about werewolf, I've seen too many complaints that it's too hard to sustain werewolf form or that somehow damage is lower.

In all of my parses after week 3, I ended up with more ultimate than I began the parse with just using heroism pots, in content you could and should be using Packleader's Bone Broth, then you won't even need heroism pots. It's so easy to sustain werewolf form it wasn't even something that entered my mind in testing at all.

And as for damage, here's a parse from week 3, I only did 1 parse out of curiosity, where I unslotted all class passives and didn't spec into class masteries. On live, werewolf with class passives slotted, subclassed for more optimal passives barely parses 130k, now the Shattered Paths Signet does play a part in werewolf parses being so high now, but even if you removed this, this linked parse would still be higher than live even though it has no class passives slotted.

My parse on PTS 147k without any class passives slotted or the new class masteries slotted, wasn't farmed

Current highest live werewolf parse 130k subclassed with class passives (not my own)
This subclassed setup uses Storm Calling, Aedric Spear, and Assassination. Earthen Heart is better than Assassination here after the DK rework, and this parse will be a little bit higher, I would put it around 134k

I even parsed on a 3mil dummy (still week 3, damage won't be too much lower from week 4's nerfs), so no trial dummy buffs, adjusted my setup to be more solo-oriented. So I changed to the packleader morph, changed to Lover mundus for additional pen, added a 1pc pen instead of 1pc crit chance, changed my food to Packleader's Bone Broth. The only thing I didn't do was put on pale order which you'll need for more difficult content, but the healing from rip and tear + blood claws + hircine's rage was enough healing for even some vestige difficulty overland bosses, which is why I still used Shattered Paths Signet on this.

Solo build parse 97k

For reference, the other strongest solo builds parse less than 70k on live, on PTS should be between 70k and 75k, this parse after the nerfs should be around 85k. (It loses more than group DPS builds since rip and tear specifically was nerfed)

I took werewolf into overland to test the new challenge difficulties, I was able to sustain my form through full fights solo completely fine before they buffed the form sustain.

And in case someone was curious, here's the highest werewolf parse from week 4, higher than just normal nightblade or any other class on the dummy.

Week 4 197k

And here is the "claw beam" werewolf, with significantly more cleave and easier rotation than normal werewolf, not parsed by myself

Week 4 186k "claw beam"

Here is another parse from week 3 with Huntsman's Warmask instead of Shattered Paths Signet which I parsed 202k with in week 3, now at 197k (above), you lose a lot of damage on werewolf by not using the new mythic, it is basically free to run since you get to use your fury ultimate while staying at enough ultimate points to get the bonus status damage from the mythic. I would expect this one to be 175k after the nerfs and a little bit of farming, as I didn't farm this parse at all so it could've gone higher.

Week 3 178k huntsman werewolf, wasn't farmed

Please stop making completely clueless posts and useless feedback. I've tested every class combination on werewolf during this PTS, I've tested solo builds, I've tested support DPS builds, and I've tested full DPS builds.

Werewolf is very strong on this PTS, and werewolf enjoyers should be thankful