U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

coop500 · May 2

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I'll bite.

Status effects and a proc set are the majority of your damage here. A handful of status effects are doing more damage than your spammable, and not simply sundered.

Werewolf kit is not equaled to overtuned mythic (Signet; will most likely be nerfed unrelated to werewolf- they're already asking for it; werewolf simply exploits it very well).

Werewolf kit is not equaled to proc sets

Werewolf kit is not equaled to class masteries (again, we never see the whole picture with these but I legitimately believe that is fully intentional on your part).

Oh, and DPS does not mean burst

Have a good night my wonderful man-under-bridge! Try and get some sleep, it's like 2am in the morning here.

This is so beautifully put, have an awesome lol.

I would like to see someone pull actual decent numbers (for PvE especially but PvP works too) WITHOUT using cracked masteries and a cracked mythic that will defo get nerfed into the dirt. Even though numbers are still only half the story, because sure a werewolf can sit there and parse on someone/something all day long. How about a real fight, with near-one shot AOEs and ads scattered out because some are melee and some are ranged? And having no shield, no cleanse, very limited utility, and no range whatsoever.

hoangdz · May 2

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Status effects and a proc set are the majority of your damage here. A handful of status effects are doing more damage than your spammable, and not simply sundered.

Werewolf kit is not equaled to overtuned mythic (Signet; will most likely be nerfed unrelated to werewolf- they're already asking for it; werewolf simply exploits it very well).

Explain why a Serpent Disdain Sorc and WW both use Shatter Fate Signet, but the Sorc never did that kind of damage to me then?

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Werewolf kit is not equaled to proc sets

Werewolf kit is not equaled to class masteries (again, we never see the whole picture with these but I legitimately believe that is fully intentional on your part).

Part of the build.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Oh, and DPS does not mean burst

Not when there are 18 instances of tiny damage in 1 second, contributing 18k total damage. That is burst.

Dracane · May 2

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

The person above me is absolutely trying to bait y'all (which, I mean I don't understand why as you've 'won' so why???). I just wanted everyone to know this is what obvious bait looks like. They can scroll through the thread, there are numerous suggestions and evidence stating the opposite of what they're saying but they instead just ~don't~ and then proceed to tag 4 people. Just absolutely grotesque behavior I will not be dishonest. It becomes very tiring at a point.

The only types of evidence worth a damn are CMX data and gameplay clips. In the context of this discussion, it’s PvP CMX screenshots and recordings of real fights. Until you have provided those, it would be hard for people to trust your opinion.

Even so, it is easy to display any given thing as underperforming by either intentionally underperforming or having a scuffed build.

Dracane · May 2

hoangdz wrote: »

This was a fight between me and Pelican. Add those numbers up and tell me if WW doesn't have "burst".

I see 20.8k damage just in the same millisecond according to the timestamps, most of it just from passive dots and effects that tick. And Over 34k within 1 second, which I consider an applicable windows that will strike even before a good player can react to it actively. This is more burst than most builds can produce, and even then only when built fully offensively.

hoangdz · May 2

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

The person above me is absolutely trying to bait y'all (which, I mean I don't understand why as you've 'won' so why???). I just wanted everyone to know this is what obvious bait looks like. They can scroll through the thread, there are numerous suggestions and evidence stating the opposite of what they're saying but they instead just ~don't~ and then proceed to tag 4 people. Just absolutely grotesque behavior I will not be dishonest. It becomes very tiring at a point.

The only types of evidence worth a damn are CMX data and gameplay clips. In the context of this discussion, it’s PvP CMX screenshots and recordings of real fights. Until you have provided those, it would be hard for people to trust your opinion.

Even so, it is easy to display any given thing as underperforming by either intentionally underperforming or having a scuffed build.

Right, but luckily CMX shows your offensive stats and any set procs pretty damn well, so at least the scuffed build problem can be diagnosed early. The underperforming part isn't an issue anyway because we are assuming that competent players are going to run these builds. Pelican and the likes are currently performing at a high level and have set the standards for this class, so we just gotta refer to those for testing purposes.

hoangdz · May 2

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

This was a fight between me and Pelican. Add those numbers up and tell me if WW doesn't have "burst".

I see 20.8k damage just in the same millisecond according to the timestamps, most of it just from passive dots and effects that tick. And Over 34k within 1 second, which I consider an applicable windows that will strike even before a good player can react to it actively. This is more burst than most builds can produce, and even then only when built fully offensively.

Yea, there's simply no outplaying this as compared to something like a 20k Spectral Bow or 15k Whip. It's literally just constant pressure that gets stacked up in 1 GCD, acting as pseudo burst. This type of burst is much harder to counter because they're spread over multiple instances of damage and doesn't have any specific telegraph.

Dracane · May 2

hoangdz wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

This was a fight between me and Pelican. Add those numbers up and tell me if WW doesn't have "burst".

I see 20.8k damage just in the same millisecond according to the timestamps, most of it just from passive dots and effects that tick. And Over 34k within 1 second, which I consider an applicable windows that will strike even before a good player can react to it actively. This is more burst than most builds can produce, and even then only when built fully offensively.

Yea, there's simply no outplaying this as compared to something like a 20k Spectral Bow or 15k Whip. It's literally just constant pressure that gets stacked up in 1 GCD, acting as pseudo burst. This type of burst is much harder to counter because they're spread over multiple instances of damage and doesn't have any specific telegraph.

What makes it hard to counter for me is that a lot of it is attached to undodgeable damage instance that can proc further status effects. This generally is the issue with Werewolves; you just die in roll dodge.

Wuuffyy · May 2

hoangdz wrote: »

Serpent Disdain Sorc and WW both use Shatter Fate Signet

Man, your screenshot is just proc'd up over here and I have to hyper-analyze your post to even just figure out which ones.

They're also asking for Serpent's Disdain to be nerfed, by the way:

hoangdz wrote: »

but the Sorc never did that kind of damage to me then?

I don't know that the sorc couldn't; you would never be disingenuous/lie/bait/troll

*4 pings and 3- 4 tags in minutes adding nearly nothing constructive

But let's assume for conversation sake there's validity without-a-doubt there...

Werewolf provides many, many buffs and debuffs that lean themselves towards procs. This once again doesn't necessarily mean your actual skills in-kit are what are doing the bulk of the damage.

You would not like to hear this but there are things ZOS could work to curb the interactions while also fixing the inherent problems created with the rework. Each and every tooltip is essentially and factually about ~20%-30 weaker than live aside from health-based heals on bite and claws respectively.

If it were me personally, I'd look at:

-Interactions for werewolf with high-efficiency regarding status effects, especially things like Signet and Serpent's disdain.

-To prevent werewolf from taking advantage of juiced-up and rather unnecessary passives, I'd recommend they simply give werewolf its own class mastery as I've mentioned before.

Examples (up to 5) could be: 2 low-damage increase passives, 1 passive that 'purges all negative effects when first activating rampage', 'Hircine's ~healing howl~ provides 50% of its healing benefit to nearby werewolves, and 1 more.

-If not in PvE, they REALLY need to convert all werewolf heals to 'wep and spell damage' scaling under battle spirit.

Giving us no wep/spell damage heals aside from Hircine's Rage (which is notably weaker than a breath of life) was an absolute mistake that I personally believe should be rectified before post-PTS release. All this will ever lead to is 'this wolf with 50k health and 20-25k resists (depending on armor pot) is doing x, y, z damage to me (and the most efficient playstyle in that case will always be procs/semi-proc sets i.e. 'free damage').

Yarcanine · May 2

I took 18 instances of damage in 1 second, totalling 18244 damage. Who here said WW doesn't have burst?

I'll play devil's advocate here for a second. This is showing a 4.5k spammable + guaranteed sundered so 5.5k and a couple of dots sourced exclusively from werewolf. The rest is showing an extremely strong build utilizing status effects, signet mythic, and the Warden class set. Unless you also post a CMX of a warden running this same build its hard to draw conclusions from this.

Dracane · May 2

Yarcanine wrote: »

I took 18 instances of damage in 1 second, totalling 18244 damage. Who here said WW doesn't have burst?

I'll play devil's advocate here for a second. This is showing a 4.5k spammable + guaranteed sundered so 5.5k and a couple of dots sourced exclusively from werewolf. The rest is showing an extremely strong build utilizing status effects, signet mythic, and the Warden class set. Unless you also post a CMX of a warden running this same build its hard to draw conclusions from this.

I'll let the pros handle this if they feel like showing Warden, but in some tests I did, Warden dealt 8k DPS to me over a minute just spamming Force Shock with the Aerie's Cry procs, Shattered Signet and some Shalks coming up. Likely this could be much improved with some melee build. But the difference is that build was fairly offensive and easily counter pressured and killed.

coop500 · May 2

How about we see where werewolf is without Signet and Serpent's Distain and Aerie's Cry? Can somebody make a build without using these sets/cracked masteries? Because all this stuff is short term flavor of the patch power that will defo get nerfed.

Dracane · May 2

coop500 wrote: »

How about we see where werewolf is without Signet and Serpent's Distain and Aerie's Cry? Can somebody make a build without using these sets/cracked masteries? Because all this stuff is short term flavor of the patch power that will defo get nerfed.

I would not be so sure. There seem to be no plans to nerf Aerie's Cry. Rather they seem to want to make it even better by allowing it to stack.

And everyone saw it coming months ago the Signet will be broken, and nothing was done to stop this. The Signet is also only truly broken because of Elemental Sussy being undogeable and partially unblockable, as well as being a free action. So the soonest thing I see happening is that skill becoming dodgeable at least. Which won't affect Werewolf.

Wuuffyy · May 2

Dracane wrote: »

Yarcanine wrote: »

I took 18 instances of damage in 1 second, totalling 18244 damage. Who here said WW doesn't have burst?

I'll play devil's advocate here for a second. This is showing a 4.5k spammable + guaranteed sundered so 5.5k and a couple of dots sourced exclusively from werewolf. The rest is showing an extremely strong build utilizing status effects, signet mythic, and the Warden class set. Unless you also post a CMX of a warden running this same build its hard to draw conclusions from this.

I'll let the pros handle this if they feel like showing Warden, but in some tests I did, Warden dealt 8k DPS to me over a minute just spamming Force Shock with the Aerie's Cry procs, Shattered Signet and some Shalks coming up. Likely this could be much improved with some melee build. But the difference is that build was fairly offensive and easily counter pressured and killed.

Correct. I’m thinking if they:

-curb this clearly toxic interaction (at least in PvP)… (although I know the 180-200k parses were using that so that has me a little worried that they’re balancing around having this there for parses)

-set ALL of the health-based healing to wep/spell damage values ‘while under battle spirit (this would help make health-stack less viable because you’d become significantly less survivable for healing (more info below)

-and potentially how things are shaking out afterwards with procs (since it has so many buffs it could stand to get a 15% reduction to damaging procs ‘while under battle spirit’)…

we could start to give love back to the original kit.

///

I would like to see the guaranteed status effect from the spammable changed to a stone-fist-like burst effect (2-3 and next is increased value) on rip and tear specifically (also would just have minor breach added). The guaranteed status removed balanced with the burst rework would equate to around this same DPS on parse but would/could be far more telegraphed and less pressure-at-all-times.

With the guaranteed status effect gone it’d take a little power away from building around status damage procs, get rid of the extra ~100 wep/spell constantly from the sundered proc, allow me to benefit from the status chance luck (for a bit more burst), and actually have my first burst move.

You could also trade some of the HPS from rip/claws (if needed) and place it back into the healing howl which is far more resource-intensive than either of those 2 (in others words, it will compound the difficulty of health-stacking -less mag/recov built- in terms of having ‘the best of all worlds’ and provide more appropriate ‘on demand healing’ again).

Dracane · May 2

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Yarcanine wrote: »

I took 18 instances of damage in 1 second, totalling 18244 damage. Who here said WW doesn't have burst?

I'll play devil's advocate here for a second. This is showing a 4.5k spammable + guaranteed sundered so 5.5k and a couple of dots sourced exclusively from werewolf. The rest is showing an extremely strong build utilizing status effects, signet mythic, and the Warden class set. Unless you also post a CMX of a warden running this same build its hard to draw conclusions from this.

I'll let the pros handle this if they feel like showing Warden, but in some tests I did, Warden dealt 8k DPS to me over a minute just spamming Force Shock with the Aerie's Cry procs, Shattered Signet and some Shalks coming up. Likely this could be much improved with some melee build. But the difference is that build was fairly offensive and easily counter pressured and killed.

Correct. I’m thinking if they:

-curb this clearly toxic interaction (at least in PvP)… (although I know the 180-200k parses were using that so that has me a little worried that they’re balancing around having this there for parses)

-set ALL of the health-based healing to wep/spell damage values (this would help make health-stack less viable because you’d become significantly less survivable for healing (more info below)

-and potentially how things are shaking out afterwards with procs (since it has so many buffs it could stand to get a 15% reduction to damaging procs ‘while under battle spirit’)…

we could start to give love back to the original kit. I would like to see the guaranteed status effect from the spammable changed to a stone-fist-like burst effect (2-3 and next is increased value) on rip and tear specifically (also would just have minor breach added).

With the guaranteed status effect gone it’d take a little power away from building around status damage procs, get rid of the extra ~100 wep/spell constantly from the sundered proc, allow me to benefit from the status chance luck (for a bit more burst), and actually have my first burst move.

You could also trade some of the HPS from rip/claws (if needed) and place it back into the healing howl which is far more resource-intensive than either of those 2 (in others words, it will compound the difficulty of health-stacking -less mag/recov built- in terms of having ‘the best of all worlds’ and provide more appropriate ‘on demand healing’ again).

This sounds reasonable and logical. Health based healing should be very limited indeed. There was never a time in ESO where heals based on health percentage were healthy. (Dragonblood, Arctic Blast, Blood Magic, Werewolf, and that new DK skill I can't even bother to remember the name of anymore, because the new skill names are ridiculous and meaningless.)

The rest of your suggestions also make sense.

dark_hunterxmg · May 2

We're still going to have to stack health to the moon. Crushing Shock gankers are doing 40k bursts out in the world right now.

Wuuffyy · May 2

@Dracane - I just wish ‘they cared enough’ and/ or we had more time. I appreciate your understanding on this though. Most of us if not all want no more than all the exploitable things removed (I know, that’s probably hard to believe) and have things improved to provide only a bit of what something like DK can really accomplish just so it becomes a bit easier to fight reworked specs as they pass through the pipeline.

Dracane · May 2

Wuuffyy wrote: »

@Dracane - I just wish ‘they cared enough’ and/ or we had more time. I appreciate your understanding on this though. Most of us if not all want no more than all the exploitable things removed (I know, that’s probably hard to believe) and have things improved to provide only a bit of what something like DK can really accomplish just so it becomes a bit easier to fight reworked specs as they pass through the pipeline.

No. In your case I do not find it hard to believe. You seem genuine to me and have repeated it many times what you want.

coop500 · May 2

Wuuffyy wrote: »

@Dracane - I just wish ‘they cared enough’ and/ or we had more time. I appreciate your understanding on this though. Most of us if not all want no more than all the exploitable things removed (I know, that’s probably hard to believe) and have things improved to provide only a bit of what something like DK can really accomplish just so it becomes a bit easier to fight reworked specs as they pass through the pipeline.

Throwing my hat in the ring as someone who wants the exploitable stuff removed. I just want to play my characters and not suck. I don't chase the cheese or meta. But if the game remains balanced around it, then it's finally nerfed, then the stuff that suffered and was carried by these exploiting interacts is now destroyed. This has happened time and time again, and I'm worried WW will suffer the same fate (again)

YandereGirlfriend · May 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Crushing Shock gankers are doing 40k bursts out in the world right now.

Which is a problem for everyone not just WWs.

Ask for appropriate nerfs to that combo and it will do us all a favor.

dark_hunterxmg · May 2

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Crushing Shock gankers are doing 40k bursts out in the world right now.

Which is a problem for everyone not just WWs.

Ask for appropriate nerfs to that combo and it will do us all a favor.

I have asked them to fix that interaction. Time will tell if it will be done.

I was just adding some extra information as to why Werewolves are going to run higher health, even if the heal scaled on weapon damage(which I don't think it should).

Wuuffyy · May 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

I was just adding some extra information as to why Werewolves are going to run higher health, even if the heal scaled on weapon damage(which I don't think it should).

I get your point, werewolf has had the health based heal (again going to say, in PvP in-line with my suggestions) for as long as most can remember. However, it of course started out as a spell damage only scaling heal with Pelinal’s being the primary way you’d benefit from it (when ‘no one’ really had ‘an issue’ with werewolf).

—

The problem with health-based heals in PvP is (citing for anyone not just OP here):

-enough health itself essentially completely removes you from variable ‘burst zones’ and simply gives you more potential damage you have to take before you die.

That is typically fine as you will lose actual resistance/protections/ and damage-for-heal-scaling- so the more you build, the more an interaction with you will look like (I slice through this guy like butter, and he heals for little, and his sustain is abysmal- so you aren’t that annoying to deal with).

However, with significant health-based heals backing up the health, you end up in a situation where you no longer have a healing deficit, so you can sustain your health efficiently as long as you have resources. Where this is extremely problematic right now for werewolf is that they’ve given us a rather special use-case—>

—

Werewolf specifically has low stam costs, and while I technically still lose damage (this is my LEAST favorite part of this interaction), it is FAR less efficient to run stam (even for infusing damage back in-kit) than health.

While my mag heal (which scales off either wep/spell or health depending on morph) heals for a ‘fair sustain value’, my stam heals (health-based) are an okay healing value now at ~30k health and egregious around 50k-60k while also having that aforementioned low costs.

However, because I’m so strongly incentivized to build health, I’m almost always going to have at least 35-40k on a ‘built correctly’ PvP build and upwards of 50-60k with a build specifically tuned to ‘juice’ our interactions.

On PTS (they are testing interactions, I don’t place fault there- I place fault in obscurity and motivation for how they post), ‘they’ are combining Signet (which benefits from several ‘guaranteed/high status interactions’ with werewolf + major/ minor buff uptime) and/or class masteries (mythic makes that optional)…

///

Add all this together and you end up with a combination of exploiting a variety top-end interactions with werewolf. So you have high health (which is a buffer to burst and ups TTK on you), you have strong healing, low costs on your healing (stam; sustain), high damage from Ancient Signet and/or class masteries (that mythic makes this optional), and potentially some resistance (in duels specifically with armor pots instead of mag,etc. due to less need for ‘roaming’+ significant time on target).

Wuuffyy · May 2

So @dark_hunterxmg more to your point. The actual damage and burst heal in werewolves kit right now is significantly weaker than live. But because of many items and concepts they’ve added this patch that are unrelated to werewolf itself, mixed with the way werewolf is functioning now (low cost, health-based heals):

these specific interactions will be nerfed (along with our kit to meet ‘general sentiment’, most likely) if they let it go to live and they will not restore our kit as the general sentiment (just like Wolf Hunter) will be ‘we don’t want werewolf to be like that again’ from the community and just like all of the time before this PTS…

…any requests at that point we make to assist the underperforming base kit (PvP) will be shot down because werewolf seems to be considered an ‘optional’ playstyle and ZoS seems unwilling to ‘thoroughly investigate/acknowledge reasons’ for that performance and will simply side with general sentiment.

So I hate the thought of losing some identity of ‘health’ in PvP (one would still health stack with werewolf), however that (and having werewolf locked to its ‘own mastery’+ potential Signet lockout) should probably be done to avoid catching those same nerfs later while they should also provide compensatory buffs/side grades to make sure that we are performing greater than live, at base, and not worse (low stam costs, healing-while-attacking with a worse burst heal do not equal greater).

Wuuffyy · May 2

coop500 wrote: »

But if the game remains balanced around it, then it's finally nerfed, then the stuff that suffered and was carried by these exploiting interacts is now destroyed. This has happened time and time again, and I'm worried WW will suffer the same fate (again)

Sorry I’m “talking” a lot but I want everyone (anyone who reads) to know somewhat how this feels from a long term WW player’s perspective:

There is a strong interaction, they rightfully nerf it. Sometimes (and despite the reasoning), they even dig into werewolf’s kit and nerf that alongside it as well (buffs or sidegrades are never considered)… Now you can end up with something (as an example) like Bolstering Darkness on Nightblade (if you don’t know what that is- you’ve already reached my point).

As a nightblade, it may not be awesome to have it be that way, but at least you can swap that out for something that competes and still be ‘a nightblade’ (y’all I know they’re doing y’all a certain way with the class mastery so I feel you here too).

When they take away anything in-kit for werewolf or complete a rework and just don’t ’add it’, you can’t just sub something out… it’s just gone or isn’t there. So when all of the things you’re missing are that much further under anything else, you just ‘suffer’ or you give up. Must of us have stuck around (me, at least to an extent) and ‘suffered’, and have continued to ‘do our best’ hoping for a rework “like this” to come around and make things better and more fair for everyone.

So when it comes to reading the patch notes and pre-patch notes and seeing nerf after nerf, week after week with ‘nothing to show for it’ it is disappointing but even more sadly expected.

coop500 · May 3

Wuuffyy wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

But if the game remains balanced around it, then it's finally nerfed, then the stuff that suffered and was carried by these exploiting interacts is now destroyed. This has happened time and time again, and I'm worried WW will suffer the same fate (again)

Sorry I’m “talking” a lot but I want everyone (anyone who reads) to know somewhat how this feels from a long term WW player’s perspective:

There is a strong interaction, they rightfully nerf it. Sometimes (and despite the reasoning), they even dig into werewolf’s kit and nerf that alongside it as well (buffs or sidegrades are never considered)… Now you can end up with something (as an example) like Bolstering Darkness on Nightblade (if you don’t know what that is- you’ve already reached my point).

As a nightblade, it may not be awesome to have it be that way, but at least you can swap that out for something that competes and still be ‘a nightblade’ (y’all I know they’re doing y’all a certain way with the class mastery so I feel you here too).

When they take away anything in-kit for werewolf or complete a rework and just don’t ’add it’, you can’t just sub something out… it’s just gone or isn’t there. So when all of the things you’re missing are that much further under anything else, you just ‘suffer’ or you give up. Must of us have stuck around (me, at least to an extent) and ‘suffered’, and have continued to ‘do our best’ hoping for a rework “like this” to come around and make things better and more fair for everyone.

So when it comes to reading the patch notes and pre-patch notes and seeing nerf after nerf, week after week with ‘nothing to show for it’ it is disappointing but even more sadly expected.

Thank you, this is very well put. And now imagine this over the course of 11-9 years (11 for the game's lifespan, 9 for my personal years playing the game) and just watching your class progressively become worse and worse and there's nothing you can do about it. At best, subclassing gave us access to a few lousy passives (I hope you didn't actually care about your human form at all thematically lol) while everyone else basically doubled in power.

We're passionate and we're 'dooming' because we've been the neglected step-children for the entire game's lifespan. Because we fear that after this patch (update 50 hits Live on June 7th) we'll never get revisted, we'll never get looked at, and that's not dooming. That's from literally years of experience and dealing with how that ALREADY has happened to us.

hoangdz · May 3

Yarcanine wrote: »

I took 18 instances of damage in 1 second, totalling 18244 damage. Who here said WW doesn't have burst?

I'll play devil's advocate here for a second. This is showing a 4.5k spammable + guaranteed sundered so 5.5k and a couple of dots sourced exclusively from werewolf. The rest is showing an extremely strong build utilizing status effects, signet mythic, and the Warden class set. Unless you also post a CMX of a warden running this same build its hard to draw conclusions from this.

Warden has similarly styled burst (multiple instances of tiny damage), but I have yet to see almost 20 instances. The most I saw was around 12. Also, those Warden builds do not have 50k HP nor 9k DPS.

We went from Sorc base class with Sorc class masteries to Warden base class with Warden class masteries, and WW is the only spec that can do 9k+ DPS with 50k+ HP. Neither Sorc nor Warden can do the same thing with those stats. I think it's fairly simple to draw the conclusion that WW is the overperforming class here.

Arunei · May 3

So I did some testing that I'll post screens of in another thread when I have a chance so as not to clutter this one up, but yeah, it does feel like PTS WW is behind Live DK in terms of PvE, and if they keep nerfing it it's just going to make it worse. I'd say right now it's probably okay, PvE-wise. My Live DK doesn't have a Mythic yet as I'm working on getting him Velothi, and he's a 1bar build for reasons I'll mention in the thread I get up later, and was still for the most part outperforming my PTS WW (who granted is still using Oaken rather than something like Signet b/c of reasons I'll ALSO bring up in the other thread lol).

It might look like WW can stand to get nerfed in PvE more but please consider that WW should still manage to do solid damage after a rework to bring it up. If it's going to get nerfed into being noticably worse than a 1bar DK or any other 1bar Class after their rework, then literally what's the point of the rework for WW? People will just continue to ignore and shun WW like they have for the last how many darn years, because why play a limited WW when you can just Jesus Beam 2.0 everything instead and still do more damage? I genuinely don't think it's too much to ask for for WW to be viable enough that it can be used in Dungeons and Trials and seen as a benefit rather than a detriment.

That said, more feedback on other things. It's still WAY too hard to sustain Berserker in longer fights that don't have things you can reliably Devour, and at this point like others have asked, can we please just make it a full toggle? Maybe make it cost 200 Ult to pop instead, stay in form out of combat but the Ult gets consumed upon use, and can still generate Ult while transformed. That way it's not as punishing to try and keep your form going, because like I've already said, unless you're waiting till you already have 3-400 Ult to use it anyway so you can keep getting Rampage, what's the point of lowering the transformation cost? I wasn't even able to get anywhere near using Rampage while doing my testing because I was only going in with like 100-150 Ult so I could test the increased Ult regen. It's still awful.

WW jumping still feels too heavy. It feels like you're barely leaving the ground and you don't nearly go as far as jumping in 'human' form. At least the back legs don't stick out at a random angle anymore, or at least it doesn't look like it.

Yarcanine · May 3

Warden has similarly styled burst (multiple instances of tiny damage), but I have yet to see almost 20 instances. The most I saw was around 12. Also, those Warden builds do not have 50k HP nor 9k DPS.

We went from Sorc base class with Sorc class masteries to Warden base class with Warden class masteries, and WW is the only spec that can do 9k+ DPS with 50k+ HP. Neither Sorc nor Warden can do the same thing with those stats. I think it's fairly simple to draw the conclusion that WW is the overperforming class here.

There is nothing in the werewolf kit that increases HP. You can get 50k HP on a warden utilizing the same methods as you do on WW. Also I'm not sure if you're aware but the Feral Cruelty passive is bugged and is still giving the full 33% increased WD in duels. It only seems to be giving the 10% in actual Battle Spirit areas, so that is going to throw the numbers off.

Also even with this advantage there is a Sorc on PTS that I can only stalemate. Im no slouch either, as I think im one of the only other werewolf players that can keep up with Pelican on the PTS. He is playing correctly, kiting, pressuring me back, etc. All this causes both of us to max out around 6k dps.

hoangdz · May 3

Yarcanine wrote: »

Warden has similarly styled burst (multiple instances of tiny damage), but I have yet to see almost 20 instances. The most I saw was around 12. Also, those Warden builds do not have 50k HP nor 9k DPS.

We went from Sorc base class with Sorc class masteries to Warden base class with Warden class masteries, and WW is the only spec that can do 9k+ DPS with 50k+ HP. Neither Sorc nor Warden can do the same thing with those stats. I think it's fairly simple to draw the conclusion that WW is the overperforming class here.

There is nothing in the werewolf kit that increases HP. You can get 50k HP on a warden utilizing the same methods as you do on WW. Also I'm not sure if you're aware but the Feral Cruelty passive is bugged and is still giving the full 33% increased WD in duels. It only seems to be giving the 10% in actual Battle Spirit areas, so that is going to throw the numbers off.

Also even with this advantage there is a Sorc on PTS that I can only stalemate. Im no slouch either, as I think im one of the only other werewolf players that can keep up with Pelican on the PTS. He is playing correctly, kiting, pressuring me back, etc. All this causes both of us to max out around 6k dps.

There isn’t anything in the WW kit that increases HP, but as a base Warden you have access to Minor Toughness. I am also aware of the bug. However, the point is that WW is pulling 8k-9k or even 10k DPS WHILE at 50k HP. Isolating the HP and saying that Warden can achieve the same value is neglecting the other half of the argument. Yes, any class can build 50k HP, but can it do 8-9-10k DPS?

Both you and Pelican are WWs tho, so it’s expected that you guys max out around that value. Fight other classes and they simply do not have the healing to survive that kind of DPS. Also, Sorc is an outlier because Conservation of Energy itself is busted. Sure you guys stalemated, but does he have a chance killing you, or did he play defense the whole duel? Unless you mess up, the ball is in your hands and I do not see anyone nuking a 45-50k HP WW whose also mechanically good.

Wuuffyy · May 3

Yarcanine wrote: »

Also I'm not sure if you're aware but the Feral Cruelty passive is bugged and is still giving the full 33% increased WD in duels. It only seems to be giving the 10% in actual Battle Spirit areas, so that is going to throw the numbers off.

WOW! I just tested this with a random build that I had on and you're right->

Control (normal 'overland' weapon/spell damage). Location: Glenumbra bridge outside of town:

Control (normal nerfed 'Battle Spirit' weapon/spell damage). Location: Imperial City Sewers, in base:

Proof of 'bugged' wep/spell in dueling while in overland content. Yet another bug/exploit 'inflating parses'. Location: Glenumbra bridge outside of town (player visible in background):

---

hoangdz wrote: »

I am also aware of the bug.

First I'm hearing of it from anyone on this forum. That is so disingenuous and genuinely disgusting to me.

Whole set of quotes (I will not edit this comment again):

Yarcanine wrote: »

Warden has similarly styled burst (multiple instances of tiny damage), but I have yet to see almost 20 instances. The most I saw was around 12. Also, those Warden builds do not have 50k HP nor 9k DPS.

We went from Sorc base class with Sorc class masteries to Warden base class with Warden class masteries, and WW is the only spec that can do 9k+ DPS with 50k+ HP. Neither Sorc nor Warden can do the same thing with those stats. I think it's fairly simple to draw the conclusion that WW is the overperforming class here.

There is nothing in the werewolf kit that increases HP. You can get 50k HP on a warden utilizing the same methods as you do on WW. Also I'm not sure if you're aware but the Feral Cruelty passive is bugged and is still giving the full 33% increased WD in duels. It only seems to be giving the 10% in actual Battle Spirit areas, so that is going to throw the numbers off.

Also even with this advantage there is a Sorc on PTS that I can only stalemate. Im no slouch either, as I think im one of the only other werewolf players that can keep up with Pelican on the PTS. He is playing correctly, kiting, pressuring me back, etc. All this causes both of us to max out around 6k dps.

hoangdz wrote: »

Yarcanine wrote: »

Warden has similarly styled burst (multiple instances of tiny damage), but I have yet to see almost 20 instances. The most I saw was around 12. Also, those Warden builds do not have 50k HP nor 9k DPS.

We went from Sorc base class with Sorc class masteries to Warden base class with Warden class masteries, and WW is the only spec that can do 9k+ DPS with 50k+ HP. Neither Sorc nor Warden can do the same thing with those stats. I think it's fairly simple to draw the conclusion that WW is the overperforming class here.

There is nothing in the werewolf kit that increases HP. You can get 50k HP on a warden utilizing the same methods as you do on WW. Also I'm not sure if you're aware but the Feral Cruelty passive is bugged and is still giving the full 33% increased WD in duels. It only seems to be giving the 10% in actual Battle Spirit areas, so that is going to throw the numbers off.

Also even with this advantage there is a Sorc on PTS that I can only stalemate. Im no slouch either, as I think im one of the only other werewolf players that can keep up with Pelican on the PTS. He is playing correctly, kiting, pressuring me back, etc. All this causes both of us to max out around 6k dps.

There isn’t anything in the WW kit that increases HP, but as a base Warden you have access to Minor Toughness. I am also aware of the bug. However, the point is that WW is pulling 8k-9k or even 10k DPS WHILE at 50k HP. Isolating the HP and saying that Warden can achieve the same value is neglecting the other half of the argument. Yes, any class can build 50k HP, but can it do 8-9-10k DPS?

Both you and Pelican are WWs tho, so it’s expected that you guys max out around that value. Fight other classes and they simply do not have the healing to survive that kind of DPS. Also, Sorc is an outlier because Conservation of Energy itself is busted. Sure you guys stalemated, but does he have a chance killing you, or did he play defense the whole duel? Unless you mess up, the ball is in your hands and I do not see anyone nuking a 45-50k HP WW whose also mechanically good.

Dracane · May 3

I'm also surprised this bug was not mentioned before, if it truly applies as described. First time I am hearing this myself.
Tooltips and the character sheet in ESO are notoriously inaccurate. This is a first damning hint, but does it truly apply the damage to attacks in duels? That needs to be known.