U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

hoangdz · May 1

huskandhunger wrote: »

Have you tried surviving as a werewolf vs.multiple 28m range attackers using bows and destruction staves and scribing abilities?

No offense but this is not a problem exclusive to WW. Any build not using Spell Wall/DK Wings will experience the same problem, and they will often die sooner due to the fact that none of them can build 50k+ HP and still have damage.

huskandhunger · May 1

Dracane wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

1 vs 1 means nothing. When duels were added, it was a mistake. There are, thankfully, no 1 vs 1 competitions in the game. Why are you running around solo in a war zone unless you’re really good, really stupid, or just don’t care?

A werewolf ball group vs a non-werewolf ball group will lose everytime. The werewolves will jump in and melt to the stacked non-werewolf ult dump. Werewolf needs major defences added to it.

Yes I could not agree more about the defense part, and the devs could start by returning the unique 10k armor it used to have.

Dracane wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.

Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.

Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.

Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.

Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.

It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability

ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?

huskandhunger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Can we please stop the bickering back and forth? I'd love to get back to actual constructive feedback for our combat/balance devs.

I've seen a lot of talk about why or why not werewolf should be as strong as a two-bar setup. I think with these reworks it should be as strong as Dragonknight, but werewolf NEEDS drawbacks for being one-bar and currently it does have those which I will list. Dragonknights on the live server right now are capable of pressing 3 buttons and nuking multiple players back-to-back, while having almost infinite sustain, cross heals, chain pull, ranged aoe damage, major expedition, snare removal, good defense, and more. I have no issue with this and have never asked for nerfs since the new class refresh.

Playing werewolf, you have a LOT of drawbacks such as increased poison damage taken, no weapon passives, forced to deal with a transformation timer system, no cross healing, no purge or snare removals, limited healing while kiting and not actively on top of a player, no range damage, no burst damage, no shields, lack of group utility or support ultimates, cannot place siege, cannot restore magicka via heavy attacks for the only on-demand heal in the toolkit, no access to scribing, most class passives do not work in form, no proper crouch/sneak, cannot use skill scrolls, can't mount in form, meaning you can't keep up with others going between keeps in Cyrodiil, several mythics don't work for us, like Rakkhat's Voidmantle.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Werewolf is designed as a melee brawler with strengths and drawbacks. Simply put, melee range is Werewolf's domain. If you are in melee range fighting a Werewolf, you are not fighting it correctly.

Werewolf cannot attack you from range, only gap close into melee range. Werewolf cannot purge negative effects like snares and damage over time, and has a limited Magicka pool to burn on self healing when there is no target in their melee range to gain health from.

Certain Class kits are built around being in melee range (like Templar and Dragonknight), but the human form always has the flexibility to build differently. There are ranged alternatives to those playstyles, and you can even swap between melee and ranged with the loadout of your two skill bars. Werewolf is permanently stuck as this melee brawler archetype.

Since we cannot test Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil on the PTS, we aren't seeing the full picture. You're expected to be in melee range in a duel, so Werewolf is going to shine in that environment. Once we see Update 50's Werewolf in Cyrodiil, you'll find how easy it is to counter them.

Werewolves's healing via Bloodclaws scales per target struck, doesn't it? So Werewolves survival should be even better against more than one target. There aren't many skills who scale their healing in such a way.

It's the same value per target which is very similar to what already exists in the game in the form of the necromancer Scythe ability

ZoS even put a cap of 6 as well on the PTS maybe we should remove the cap, what do you think?

Yes, and I did say that it exists, although not often. My point stands. Werewolves's survivability is scalable, hence not confined to mere duels.

Have you tried surviving as a werewolf vs.multiple 28m range attackers using bows and destruction staves and scribing abilities?

If you haven't tried it on the Live Version you should because PTS werewolf will still encounter the same problems and get mowed down just as fast in an actual combat setting in Cyro.

Duels are meaningless because they are confined to a small circle you cannot leave or you lose the duel. I actually think they should remove dueling from the game entirely, we are not an e-sports or competitive landscape, it's a fantasy game, let's not delude ourselves.

No doubt. I see this being a problem for sure as for any pure melee build.

Except for melee Dragonknight which has 50% damage reduction vs. ranged attacks with their wings. They even are given snare removal and major expedition.

And this is why the spurious claims about Werewolf health and healing which are limited by range, high ability cost, and a lack of any similar tools that current Live Dragonknight can reach for are blatantly hypocritical and misleading.

You are right about the first part, but the part with Werewolf having high ability cost is deceptive, because a build whose main damage comes from light attacking and passive healing, the actual ressource drain will be low. The average drain in most fights seem to be only 700-900 stamina/s. So you can make due with base recoveries and not run out.

This only trivializes further as there is a larger health pool as a buffer. On a low health build you can be more easily pressured into dodging. I don't really have a point with this or try to insinuate anything. Being out of ressources constantly is annoying and I am glad they make ressource sustain more abundant over time.

Any non-werewolf spec can light attack and heal themselves and dodge roll and actually those outside of werewolf can heal even more with their access to multiple healing abilities and greater power across 2 bars with multiple heal over times while werewolf only has one heal over time on Claws.

We need to throw the dog some bones.

huskandhunger · May 1

hoangdz wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Have you tried surviving as a werewolf vs.multiple 28m range attackers using bows and destruction staves and scribing abilities?

No offense but this is not a problem exclusive to WW. Any build not using Spell Wall/DK Wings will experience the same problem, and they will often die sooner due to the fact that none of them can build 50k+ HP and still have damage.

Anyone can slap on high health and still have damage, even non-werewolf users. And yes they too will die much the same, see we are actually in agreement 🤝

The expression of damage matters more, and the cumulative sum of ability effects of 2 bar users vs a 1 bar user enables them greater survival in these kinds of situations.

Also have you tried getting on Vengeance? If not I recommend you engage with it as it will enable all of your high health, high damage fantasies for all and we can all have a more balanced playing field.

Imagine if instead of us arguing with each other here on the forums about who had this health or this damage, if we had smashed each other up in Vengeance on an equal playing field, pretty cool huh?

autocookies · May 1

Werewolf

I tried tanking some world bosses in the reach as a werewolf. I used two ultimate generation sets, but I still couldn’t maintain werewolf form. I keep seeing nurf wolf, nurf wolf, but most likely the people saying that won't be playing werewolf and trying to generate ult to maintain form. I could imagine this being horrendous in pvp where someone merely has to hit from afar and dodge long enough for you to run out of ult and be stun locked for a second while losing form. Not that surviving is possible without sufficient self heals.

Anyways Tanking on werewolf needs consideration for maintaining form as well.

1) As a tank, you generally don’t use abilities often enough to generate Fury, so the werewolf ultimate isn’t consistently available.

2) The werewolf’s natural ultimate generation isn’t high enough to sustain the form. You get a small amount from taking damage and light attacks, but it’s not enough to maintain the transformation without corpses.

To test this, I switched to a berserker setup using Drake’s Rush and Baron Zaudrus. I wanted to see how long I could stay in form without relying on fury or corpses. I managed 1 minute and 10 seconds, with about 68% uptime on Major Heroism. you can also see 25% uptime on Zaudrus in my cmx.

I would like to further add that transforming with 100 ult and losing form within 10 seconds really sucks.

coop500 · May 1

Don't worry guys, the devs are just going to nerf Werewolf further, yay!! Aren't you excited?! No more big bad wolves POSSIBLY being strong and useful, yay!

What a friggen WORTHLESS rework, especially once more classes get their rework. ***.

hoangdz · May 1

huskandhunger wrote: »

Anyone can slap on high health and still have damage, even non-werewolf users. And yes they too will die much the same, see we are actually in agreement 🤝

? Nobody on the live server can slap on 50k HP and do 8-9k DPS. You wanna bet 10 mil gold on it?

autocookies · May 1

deleted

hoangdz · May 1

autocookies wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Anyone can slap on high health and still have damage, even non-werewolf users. And yes they too will die much the same, see we are actually in agreement 🤝

? Nobody on the live server can slap on 50k HP and do 8-9k DPS. You wanna bet 10 mil gold on it?

Easy 20k first try hardest part was getting 50k health.

Now do that on a real player instead of an NPC

coop500 · May 1

That's on a target dummy? Is that the goal?

dark_hunterxmg · May 1

hoangdz wrote: »

autocookies wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Anyone can slap on high health and still have damage, even non-werewolf users. And yes they too will die much the same, see we are actually in agreement 🤝

? Nobody on the live server can slap on 50k HP and do 8-9k DPS. You wanna bet 10 mil gold on it?

Easy 20k first try hardest part was getting 50k health.

Now do that on a real player instead of an NPC

If the real player stands there face tanking like React does, he will.

Mediocre_Talents · May 1

Let me make sure I understand the crying. NB can have 2 spec bows, Templar's can stand in their safe house (rune) and almost take no damage and still do insane burst, DK can press 3 buttons and be OP, wardens, I guess we will see next patch but WW gets a little utility and some burst finally and everyone loses their minds?
Why is everyone so worried about WW? Should the devs just remove it from the game, would that make everyone happy? I encourage ANYONE asking for more nerfs to play WW on live right now and see how bad of a class it is. Year over year, patch after patch the people who play WW are just left with crumbs. The refresh comes out and it's now 21 pages of people crying about how over-tuned it is.
I also didn't see half of these people calling for DK nerfs when update 49 hit the PTS and now some of them are DK mains. Nice.
Let's get back to focusing on bug fixes and actual things the devs can use to make WW better, not worse.

coop500 · May 1

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

Let me make sure I understand the crying. NB can have 2 spec bows, Templar's can stand in their safe house (rune) and almost take no damage and still do insane burst, DK can press 3 buttons and be OP, wardens, I guess we will see next patch but WW gets a little utility and some burst finally and everyone loses their minds?
Why is everyone so worried about WW? Should the devs just remove it from the game, would that make everyone happy? I encourage ANYONE asking for more nerfs to play WW on live right now and see how bad of a class it is. Year over year, patch after patch the people who play WW are just left with crumbs. The refresh comes out and it's now 21 pages of people crying about how over-tuned it is.
I also didn't see half of these people calling for DK nerfs when update 49 hit the PTS and now some of them are DK mains. Nice.
Let's get back to focusing on bug fixes and actual things the devs can use to make WW better, not worse.

Don't worry devs are just nerfing werewolf some more and gonna call it a day. the whiners will get their way. 11 years of being worthless garbage, especially in PvE, and we're not allowed to even look forward to our own rework.

(From PTS Summary week 3, the patch coming on this incoming Monday)

I actually don't even know why the devs are doing this, I didn't even see that many people saying Werewolf Power is unhealthy in PvE.

YandereGirlfriend · May 1

coop500 wrote: »

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

Let me make sure I understand the crying. NB can have 2 spec bows, Templar's can stand in their safe house (rune) and almost take no damage and still do insane burst, DK can press 3 buttons and be OP, wardens, I guess we will see next patch but WW gets a little utility and some burst finally and everyone loses their minds?
Why is everyone so worried about WW? Should the devs just remove it from the game, would that make everyone happy? I encourage ANYONE asking for more nerfs to play WW on live right now and see how bad of a class it is. Year over year, patch after patch the people who play WW are just left with crumbs. The refresh comes out and it's now 21 pages of people crying about how over-tuned it is.
I also didn't see half of these people calling for DK nerfs when update 49 hit the PTS and now some of them are DK mains. Nice.
Let's get back to focusing on bug fixes and actual things the devs can use to make WW better, not worse.

Don't worry devs are just nerfing werewolf some more and gonna call it a day. the whiners will get their way. 11 years of being worthless garbage, especially in PvE, and we're not allowed to even look forward to our own rework.

(From PTS Summary week 3, the patch coming on this incoming Monday)

I actually don't even know why the devs are doing this, I didn't even see that many people saying Werewolf Power is unhealthy in PvE.

Plenty of 200k one-bar WW parses out there currently so this reads as a wild overreaction.

Mediocre_Talents · May 1

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

Let me make sure I understand the crying. NB can have 2 spec bows, Templar's can stand in their safe house (rune) and almost take no damage and still do insane burst, DK can press 3 buttons and be OP, wardens, I guess we will see next patch but WW gets a little utility and some burst finally and everyone loses their minds?
Why is everyone so worried about WW? Should the devs just remove it from the game, would that make everyone happy? I encourage ANYONE asking for more nerfs to play WW on live right now and see how bad of a class it is. Year over year, patch after patch the people who play WW are just left with crumbs. The refresh comes out and it's now 21 pages of people crying about how over-tuned it is.
I also didn't see half of these people calling for DK nerfs when update 49 hit the PTS and now some of them are DK mains. Nice.
Let's get back to focusing on bug fixes and actual things the devs can use to make WW better, not worse.

Don't worry devs are just nerfing werewolf some more and gonna call it a day. the whiners will get their way. 11 years of being worthless garbage, especially in PvE, and we're not allowed to even look forward to our own rework.

(From PTS Summary week 3, the patch coming on this incoming Monday)

I actually don't even know why the devs are doing this, I didn't even see that many people saying Werewolf Power is unhealthy in PvE.

Plenty of 200k one-bar WW parses out there currently so this reads as a wild overreaction.

There are some 220k pure sorc parces too, what's your point?

YandereGirlfriend · May 1

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

Let me make sure I understand the crying. NB can have 2 spec bows, Templar's can stand in their safe house (rune) and almost take no damage and still do insane burst, DK can press 3 buttons and be OP, wardens, I guess we will see next patch but WW gets a little utility and some burst finally and everyone loses their minds?
Why is everyone so worried about WW? Should the devs just remove it from the game, would that make everyone happy? I encourage ANYONE asking for more nerfs to play WW on live right now and see how bad of a class it is. Year over year, patch after patch the people who play WW are just left with crumbs. The refresh comes out and it's now 21 pages of people crying about how over-tuned it is.
I also didn't see half of these people calling for DK nerfs when update 49 hit the PTS and now some of them are DK mains. Nice.
Let's get back to focusing on bug fixes and actual things the devs can use to make WW better, not worse.

Don't worry devs are just nerfing werewolf some more and gonna call it a day. the whiners will get their way. 11 years of being worthless garbage, especially in PvE, and we're not allowed to even look forward to our own rework.

(From PTS Summary week 3, the patch coming on this incoming Monday)

I actually don't even know why the devs are doing this, I didn't even see that many people saying Werewolf Power is unhealthy in PvE.

Plenty of 200k one-bar WW parses out there currently so this reads as a wild overreaction.

There are some 220k pure sorc parces too, what's your point?

That 200k is INSANE damage in any context but especially for a one-bar accessibility playstyle.

And that there is a huge sweet spot between 200k and the "nerfed into Oblivion!!" doomster takes that are proliferating based more upon vibes rather than actual evidence.

coop500 · May 1

Don't worry they'll nerf it, you'll never see a powerful werewolf ever again.

Just leave us alone guys, dear god. We sucked for 11 years, we'll continue to suck for 11 years more. The devs clearly don't actually care and agree with werewolf not being allowed to be strong. You're just kicking a wolf while it's leg is caught in a rusty old trap.

Mediocre_Talents · May 1

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

Let me make sure I understand the crying. NB can have 2 spec bows, Templar's can stand in their safe house (rune) and almost take no damage and still do insane burst, DK can press 3 buttons and be OP, wardens, I guess we will see next patch but WW gets a little utility and some burst finally and everyone loses their minds?
Why is everyone so worried about WW? Should the devs just remove it from the game, would that make everyone happy? I encourage ANYONE asking for more nerfs to play WW on live right now and see how bad of a class it is. Year over year, patch after patch the people who play WW are just left with crumbs. The refresh comes out and it's now 21 pages of people crying about how over-tuned it is.
I also didn't see half of these people calling for DK nerfs when update 49 hit the PTS and now some of them are DK mains. Nice.
Let's get back to focusing on bug fixes and actual things the devs can use to make WW better, not worse.

Don't worry devs are just nerfing werewolf some more and gonna call it a day. the whiners will get their way. 11 years of being worthless garbage, especially in PvE, and we're not allowed to even look forward to our own rework.

(From PTS Summary week 3, the patch coming on this incoming Monday)

I actually don't even know why the devs are doing this, I didn't even see that many people saying Werewolf Power is unhealthy in PvE.

Plenty of 200k one-bar WW parses out there currently so this reads as a wild overreaction.

There are some 220k pure sorc parces too, what's your point?

That 200k is INSANE damage in any context but especially for a one-bar accessibility playstyle.

And that there is a huge sweet spot between 200k and the "nerfed into Oblivion!!" doomster takes that are proliferating based more upon vibes rather than actual evidence.

I mean, a dummy parce you aren't really utilizing your back bar much anyways. Maybe hit wall of elements and caltrops? You are getting healer things from the trial dummy. So why is it so bad that a one bar build is doing damage. Who is this hurting?

dark_hunterxmg · May 1

I'll say it again:
They've Werewolfed too close to the sun.

It feels like they didn't understand the problem enough to know how to make the correct solution.

Mediocre_Talents · May 1

Ok, so a WW does 200k parce damage? OH NO! PVE is still going to be 8 Arc's with beams anyways. That 200k damage is single target which isn't really used in PvE anyways.

React · May 1

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

If the real player stands there face tanking like React does, he will.

No reason to sit here making blatantly false statements. Seems to be a lot of attacks on my character or the integrity of the testing I've provided going on.

Every single CMX I've provided apart from one single CMX weeks ago where static acted as a parse dummy (which was disclosed at the time of posting) has been from proper duels complete with healing, blocking, rolling, kiting, stuns, attempts to outspace and pressure back, etc.

There aren't any attempts to deceive or manipulate with any of the data provided. We're putting on realistic PVP builds and fighting normally. In my case since the EU copy on week 3, I've actually been using my live PC EU character to fight the WWs - the build I run every day for solo PVP in cyrodiil/IC.

Wuuffyy · May 1

coop500 wrote: »

I actually don't even know why the devs are doing this, I didn't even see that many people saying Werewolf Power is unhealthy in PvE.

Only 1 person even mentioned Bloody Gnash and that person said they should ‘nerf Rip and Tear’ to make it more viable… the notes are literally hinting at this and our wonderful werewolf PvE nerf with nothing else.

All werewolf ever has been is shifting power around. It never just receives buffs and when it comes time for feedback- they want to wash their hands of it so they just nerf it for whatever half-baked request that appears.

coop500 · May 1

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

Ok, so a WW does 200k parce damage? OH NO! PVE is still going to be 8 Arc's with beams anyways. That 200k damage is single target which isn't really used in PvE anyways.

Yup, 200K DPS on a melee only build with lame melee cleave will never see the light of day in real content. That's something even the devs don't seem to understand about why Beam is still king. It's got range, it's got cleave, it gives the user a giant ass shield to just ignore incoming damage while they channel it, it's nuts.

And yes I do play beam, reluctantly, because I want to actually achieve things with success. It's depressing how much weaker all of my characters are in practice over my beam man.

I came into this rework hoping my werewolf could at least become decent enough that it won't be such a huge self nerf to play as WW instead of Beam.

OBVIOUSLY that was a mistake to have hope after being garbage for 11 years.

Wuuffyy · May 1

React wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

If the real player stands there face tanking like React does, he will.

No reason to sit here making blatantly false statements. Seems to be a lot of attacks on my character or the integrity of the testing I've provided going on.

Every single CMX I've provided apart from one single CMX weeks ago where static acted as a parse dummy (which was disclosed at the time of posting) has been from proper duels complete with healing, blocking, rolling, kiting, stuns, attempts to outspace and pressure back, etc.

There aren't any attempts to deceive or manipulate with any of the data provided. We're putting on realistic PVP builds and fighting normally. In my case since the EU copy on week 3, I've actually been using my live PC EU character to fight the WWs - the build I run every day for solo PVP in cyrodiil/IC.

You are NOT doing 10k DPS on werewolf to a person (“with max resistances”) doing these things. ~even if I could it doesn’t truly matter as I have absolutely no burst and my whole kit is purgeable~ And if you are, it’s because of sorc mastery and/Signet which you and I both know will be nerfed into the group and werewolf will be left as is.

You are ridiculously disingenuous but I suppose I can only direct my frustration towards the combat team/feedback handling as it seems that they are only ever able to see the feedback to nerf werewolf but not buff it or sidegrade it.

coop500 · May 1

Also let's not forget how the devs said last week that WW cleave is intentionally weak because werewolf is supposed to be a single target powerhouse. But now suddenly that's not allowed either?!

autocookies · May 1

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

Let me make sure I understand the crying. NB can have 2 spec bows, Templar's can stand in their safe house (rune) and almost take no damage and still do insane burst, DK can press 3 buttons and be OP, wardens, I guess we will see next patch but WW gets a little utility and some burst finally and everyone loses their minds?
Why is everyone so worried about WW? Should the devs just remove it from the game, would that make everyone happy? I encourage ANYONE asking for more nerfs to play WW on live right now and see how bad of a class it is. Year over year, patch after patch the people who play WW are just left with crumbs. The refresh comes out and it's now 21 pages of people crying about how over-tuned it is.
I also didn't see half of these people calling for DK nerfs when update 49 hit the PTS and now some of them are DK mains. Nice.
Let's get back to focusing on bug fixes and actual things the devs can use to make WW better, not worse.

Don't worry devs are just nerfing werewolf some more and gonna call it a day. the whiners will get their way. 11 years of being worthless garbage, especially in PvE, and we're not allowed to even look forward to our own rework.

(From PTS Summary week 3, the patch coming on this incoming Monday)

I actually don't even know why the devs are doing this, I didn't even see that many people saying Werewolf Power is unhealthy in PvE.

Plenty of 200k one-bar WW parses out there currently so this reads as a wild overreaction.

And they are all on the same nightblade build. Which is already being adjusted so 200k werewolf will likely be gone soon anyways.

YandereGirlfriend · May 1

autocookies wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

Let me make sure I understand the crying. NB can have 2 spec bows, Templar's can stand in their safe house (rune) and almost take no damage and still do insane burst, DK can press 3 buttons and be OP, wardens, I guess we will see next patch but WW gets a little utility and some burst finally and everyone loses their minds?
Why is everyone so worried about WW? Should the devs just remove it from the game, would that make everyone happy? I encourage ANYONE asking for more nerfs to play WW on live right now and see how bad of a class it is. Year over year, patch after patch the people who play WW are just left with crumbs. The refresh comes out and it's now 21 pages of people crying about how over-tuned it is.
I also didn't see half of these people calling for DK nerfs when update 49 hit the PTS and now some of them are DK mains. Nice.
Let's get back to focusing on bug fixes and actual things the devs can use to make WW better, not worse.

Don't worry devs are just nerfing werewolf some more and gonna call it a day. the whiners will get their way. 11 years of being worthless garbage, especially in PvE, and we're not allowed to even look forward to our own rework.

(From PTS Summary week 3, the patch coming on this incoming Monday)

I actually don't even know why the devs are doing this, I didn't even see that many people saying Werewolf Power is unhealthy in PvE.

Plenty of 200k one-bar WW parses out there currently so this reads as a wild overreaction.

And they are all on the same nightblade build. Which is already being adjusted so 200k werewolf will likely be gone soon anyways.

Which is making a great argument for why WW should not receive Class Masteries.

Instead, give it its own WW Masteries.

And make it a toggle while we're at it. The ult-gen minigame is tedious and adds nothing of value to gameplay.

SlagasaurusRex · May 1

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You are NOT doing 10k DPS on werewolf to a person (“with max resistance” doing these things. And if you are, it’s because of sorc mastery and/Signet which you and I both know will be nerfed into the group and werewolf will be left as is. You are ridiculously disingenuous but I suppose I can only direct my frustration towards the combat team/feedback handling as it seems that they are only ever able to see the feedback to nerf werewolf but not buff it.

And yet, that is what is occurring. React posted screenshots without sorc mastery passives and yet you still insist that he is being purposefully deceptive. I don't know how to convince you that I and others are being fully earnest here. Well-known players with sterling reputations in the PC NA PVP community (who I have a deep respect for and have fought upwards of a thousand times) with the best defensive gameplay (block-casting timing/movement/rotations) are getting parsed for outrageous numbers on PTS right now. The insistence that this is somehow a grand conspiracy of players specifically biased against werewolf for some reason is uncharitable and unproductive.

Wuuffyy · May 1

SlagasaurusRex wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You are NOT doing 10k DPS on werewolf to a person (“with max resistance” doing these things. And if you are, it’s because of sorc mastery and/Signet which you and I both know will be nerfed into the group and werewolf will be left as is. You are ridiculously disingenuous but I suppose I can only direct my frustration towards the combat team/feedback handling as it seems that they are only ever able to see the feedback to nerf werewolf but not buff it.

And yet, that is what is occurring. React posted screenshots without sorc mastery passives and yet you still insist that he is being purposefully deceptive. I don't know how to convince you that I and others are being fully earnest here. Well-known players with sterling reputations in the PC NA PVP community (who I have a deep respect for and have fought upwards of a thousand times) with the best defensive gameplay (block-casting timing/movement/rotations) are getting parsed for outrageous numbers on PTS right now. The insistence that this is somehow a grand conspiracy of players specifically biased against werewolf for some reason is uncharitable and unproductive.

No it isn’t. You aren’t moving around in these screenshots or showing me a single thing you or about your opponent. Actually come to reality and stop acting like that
nonsense CMX parse is showing me a single thing about what’s happening in the fight or what your enemy is wearing.

This is all one big joke. The reworked werewolf is quite literally, provably weaker in a majority of ways… but hey at least React Faster and friends can 1 v 1 on PTS with high health, a busted mythic, busted class masteries and claim all of “werewolf OP”… couldn’t even test in Cyro because vengeance campaign…

I’m just over it. Way to drop the ball ZoS

dark_hunterxmg · May 1

React wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

If the real player stands there face tanking like React does, he will.

No reason to sit here making blatantly false statements. Seems to be a lot of attacks on my character or the integrity of the testing I've provided going on.

Every single CMX I've provided apart from one single CMX weeks ago where static acted as a parse dummy (which was disclosed at the time of posting) has been from proper duels complete with healing, blocking, rolling, kiting, stuns, attempts to outspace and pressure back, etc.

There aren't any attempts to deceive or manipulate with any of the data provided. We're putting on realistic PVP builds and fighting normally. In my case since the EU copy on week 3, I've actually been using my live PC EU character to fight the WWs - the build I run every day for solo PVP in cyrodiil/IC.

I just don't believe you, friend. I'm sure you can understand why. You've presented in a very elitist fashion that seems to be self-serving in the sense that you focused on preserving 2-bar superiority. You clearly don't like werewolf and most of your feedback has been calling for nerfs rather than requesting changes to make it well rounded and well performing.

Dracane · May 1

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

autocookies wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Mediocre_Talents wrote: »

Let me make sure I understand the crying. NB can have 2 spec bows, Templar's can stand in their safe house (rune) and almost take no damage and still do insane burst, DK can press 3 buttons and be OP, wardens, I guess we will see next patch but WW gets a little utility and some burst finally and everyone loses their minds?
Why is everyone so worried about WW? Should the devs just remove it from the game, would that make everyone happy? I encourage ANYONE asking for more nerfs to play WW on live right now and see how bad of a class it is. Year over year, patch after patch the people who play WW are just left with crumbs. The refresh comes out and it's now 21 pages of people crying about how over-tuned it is.
I also didn't see half of these people calling for DK nerfs when update 49 hit the PTS and now some of them are DK mains. Nice.
Let's get back to focusing on bug fixes and actual things the devs can use to make WW better, not worse.

Don't worry devs are just nerfing werewolf some more and gonna call it a day. the whiners will get their way. 11 years of being worthless garbage, especially in PvE, and we're not allowed to even look forward to our own rework.

(From PTS Summary week 3, the patch coming on this incoming Monday)

I actually don't even know why the devs are doing this, I didn't even see that many people saying Werewolf Power is unhealthy in PvE.

Plenty of 200k one-bar WW parses out there currently so this reads as a wild overreaction.

And they are all on the same nightblade build. Which is already being adjusted so 200k werewolf will likely be gone soon anyways.

Which is making a great argument for why WW should not receive Class Masteries.

Instead, give it its own WW Masteries.

And make it a toggle while we're at it. The ult-gen minigame is tedious and adds nothing of value to gameplay.

It's also interesting how the whole narrative crumbles one week at a time. First week it was only Sorc masteries being viable/broken, but actually also DK. 2nd week it came to light that it is also broken with Warden. Now it comes to light it's also broken with Nightblade.

Maybe just maybe it's not the class masteries but something else. At least it doesn't mean that class masteries should get nerfed just to keep Werewolf in balance. But deactivating them entirely might also not be great.