Seraphayel wrote: »

Maybe giving DK a blanket nerf (debuff) of 10-15% for PvP until all classes got revamped would be a solution. Warden with the upcoming revamp will also get the debuff etc, this happens to all classes until the final rework has been said and done. At that moment all of the blanket debuff nerfs will be removed.

This seems incredibly insightful and an easy way for them to manage and keep their current release pattern (and hopefully quell the near-ceaseless calls to nerfs each time anything is reworked).

@ZOS_Kevin - idk, some other ZOS person too. Read my mind and consider passing this along to the combat team.

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I'd rather not see DK nerfed. I thought the entire point of these reworks and class refreshes were to bring everything else up to par. If that's not the case then maybe it will have to be looked at eventually. But as it stands right now, I have no hopes for Warden being able to compete with Dragonknight if the devs keep listening to these nerf requests. Warden won't even survive pts.

Look how long it is taking to re-work the next class. If they were going to do one at a time, it should have been one every two weeks.

No, i wouldnt like to fight against that build, lol xD Ok, lets see then what will happen next. I think you are right, i didnt consider very high hp builds when thinking about it. But i hope if there will be any nerf coming to the Conservation of Energy, it will be something like that it procs only off Sorc abilities, or Health scaling/potency will be lowered without affecting sustain part. Lets see...

hoangdz wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Bro, you are going to make them nerf Sorcerer in PvP for real, with your "i am sorcerer main but it is broken" posts. It is not considering what builds you are fighting against in cp, proc, subclass game modes. They are all equivalently broken. They are just bringing Sorcerer to that level. But you are being really loud about that they shouldnt do it. At the end we will have a nerfed Sorcerer and not touched DK or Subclass builds. So, i wouldnt be that loud about Sorcerer changes being broken if i were you, because it is not true when you compare it to the builds you fight against.

Okay, would you want to fight my build which has 46k HP and a 2.5k-5.5k heal every second off one passive, along with enough burst to 100-0 anyone who isn’t 35k+ HP?

Wanna see that vs anyone competent

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Bro, you are going to make them nerf Sorcerer in PvP for real, with your "i am sorcerer main but it is broken" posts. It is not considering what builds you are fighting against in cp, proc, subclass game modes. They are all equivalently broken. They are just bringing Sorcerer to that level. But you are being really loud about that they shouldnt do it. At the end we will have a nerfed Sorcerer and not touched DK or Subclass builds. So, i wouldnt be that loud about Sorcerer changes being broken if i were you, because it is not true when you compare it to the builds you fight against.

Okay, would you want to fight my build which has 46k HP and a 2.5k-5.5k heal every second off one passive, along with enough burst to 100-0 anyone who isn’t 35k+ HP?

Wanna see that vs anyone competent

I have seen him perform this act multiple times against the most gifted duellists. It is not fiction. Cyrodiil fools are not up to the task of standing against it.

acanca wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

No, i wouldnt like to fight against that build, lol xD Ok, lets see then what will happen next. I think you are right, i didnt consider very high hp builds when thinking about it. But i hope if there will be any nerf coming to the Conservation of Energy, it will be something like that it procs only off Sorc abilities, or Health scaling/potency will be lowered without affecting sustain part. Lets see...

I see that alternative thrown around and imo its too harsh of a nerf. Sorc only really has a single viable class spammable with crystal weapon and it would basically require you to build stamsorc. Just putting a cap on the sustain and heal of the passive or giving it a cooldown imo makes more sense

It really is but even Crystal Weapon is a stretch as a "spam" because it has a 6 second timer but in reality you only get about 5 seconds of use because the animation takes nearly a full second to complete and you can't cancel that, just the LA; that paired with the significantly weaker 2nd attack buff makes it our best but still lackluster in the scope of a spammable because of the consistent need to reactivate.

I'd love to see CW have a 12 second timer, have a 3 LA effect and have a progressive light attack buff that starts at the same, base, scaling that we have now so 1st attack would be 100% the same as it is now, 2nd attack would be 65% of the first, and the 3rd attack would be 45% of the first.

This would provide a net benefit closer to that of, say, Inspired Scholarship but given that it's still buffing only light attacks rather than class skills it's not going to over perform given the declining value and 18 second less duration.

It's a declining scale but still increases the effectiveness so that Stam Sorcs can take advantage of a stronger skill since they aren't going to have access to a proper spammable that's likely going to be Mag based (if we get one at all).

NxJoeyD wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Bro, you are going to make them nerf Sorcerer in PvP for real, with your "i am sorcerer main but it is broken" posts. It is not considering what builds you are fighting against in cp, proc, subclass game modes. They are all equivalently broken. They are just bringing Sorcerer to that level. But you are being really loud about that they shouldnt do it. At the end we will have a nerfed Sorcerer and not touched DK or Subclass builds. So, i wouldnt be that loud about Sorcerer changes being broken if i were you, because it is not true when you compare it to the builds you fight against.

Okay, would you want to fight my build which has 46k HP and a 2.5k-5.5k heal every second off one passive, along with enough burst to 100-0 anyone who isn’t 35k+ HP? Or better yet, would you want to fight Sorcs in Cyro who all build 45-50k+ HP with the same HPS?

If the answer is yes, then I’ll wait for you to change your mind. If the answer is no, then you will understand why I made these threads. I’m not trying to nerf Sorc. I’m trying to nerf the extreme cases of this class as well as other classes (DK, WW).

Yes, this is exactly what I want because that HPS is even less than or on par with skills like Soul Siphon & Puncturing Sweep that other classes have, and equivalent to other HPS methods used in the game.

No. Are you in all seriousness comparing the heal of an Ultimate with a passive heal proc?

hoangdz wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Bro, you are going to make them nerf Sorcerer in PvP for real, with your "i am sorcerer main but it is broken" posts. It is not considering what builds you are fighting against in cp, proc, subclass game modes. They are all equivalently broken. They are just bringing Sorcerer to that level. But you are being really loud about that they shouldnt do it. At the end we will have a nerfed Sorcerer and not touched DK or Subclass builds. So, i wouldnt be that loud about Sorcerer changes being broken if i were you, because it is not true when you compare it to the builds you fight against.

Okay, would you want to fight my build which has 46k HP and a 2.5k-5.5k heal every second off one passive, along with enough burst to 100-0 anyone who isn’t 35k+ HP?

Wanna see that vs anyone competent

Sure, give me names.

Anyone with Inhale and SnB.

I highly doubt you can accumulate enough damage alongside the necessary pen to burn 32k HP, 35k res plus another form of mitigation (not even accounting Block) within 2 gcds. Thats the window you get before your opponent is back to full HP.

Ardent line wont get adjusted, lets be real here. And since this is the reality of how an enabler that line is atm class masteries should at least incentivize to not subclass it. Those are prone to be adjusted alongside their class reworks anyway.
Its sad how bad NB and Plar passives are.

Why not? I have 143% crit damage, 50% crit chance, 13k pen before Onslaught, 3 damage CPs, 6k WD, and 23k stam. These stats are more than enough to consistently do 3.5-4k DPS vs most people, and when Onslaught is active, it's a straight nuke

Thanks to the neat addon anybody serious will simply dodge and kite Onslaught/Corro. As you say vs most ppl thats more than enough but lets face it, 80% of opponents you encounter duels aside are cannonfodder.
Look, as of now Sorc is going to be certainly more balanced vs the top specs compared to other pure classes thanks to CoE simply bc you wont have to invest in sustain but you still be suspectible to burst either If you build super offensive.

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Bro, you are going to make them nerf Sorcerer in PvP for real, with your "i am sorcerer main but it is broken" posts. It is not considering what builds you are fighting against in cp, proc, subclass game modes. They are all equivalently broken. They are just bringing Sorcerer to that level. But you are being really loud about that they shouldnt do it. At the end we will have a nerfed Sorcerer and not touched DK or Subclass builds. So, i wouldnt be that loud about Sorcerer changes being broken if i were you, because it is not true when you compare it to the builds you fight against.

Okay, would you want to fight my build which has 46k HP and a 2.5k-5.5k heal every second off one passive, along with enough burst to 100-0 anyone who isn’t 35k+ HP?

Wanna see that vs anyone competent

Sure, give me names.

Anyone with Inhale and SnB.

I highly doubt you can accumulate enough damage alongside the necessary pen to burn 32k HP, 35k res plus another form of mitigation (not even accounting Block) within 2 gcds. Thats the window you get before your opponent is back to full HP.

Ardent line wont get adjusted, lets be real here. And since this is the reality of how an enabler that line is atm class masteries should at least incentivize to not subclass it. Those are prone to be adjusted alongside their class reworks anyway.
Its sad how bad NB and Plar passives are.

Why not? I have 143% crit damage, 50% crit chance, 13k pen before Onslaught, 3 damage CPs, 6k WD, and 23k stam. These stats are more than enough to consistently do 3.5-4k DPS vs most people, and when Onslaught is active, it's a straight nuke

Thanks to the neat addon anybody serious will simply dodge and kite Onslaught/Corro. As you say vs most ppl thats more than enough but lets face it, 80% of opponents you encounter duels aside are cannonfodder.

Using your logic, high level players in any versus mode, whether it's sports or e-sports, are cannonfodder then. They still make bloopers from time to time.

I mean you are free to try fighting me if you're so sure that my opponents are incompetent. Put your gameplay where your mouth is.

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

Bro, you are going to make them nerf Sorcerer in PvP for real, with your "i am sorcerer main but it is broken" posts. It is not considering what builds you are fighting against in cp, proc, subclass game modes. They are all equivalently broken. They are just bringing Sorcerer to that level. But you are being really loud about that they shouldnt do it. At the end we will have a nerfed Sorcerer and not touched DK or Subclass builds. So, i wouldnt be that loud about Sorcerer changes being broken if i were you, because it is not true when you compare it to the builds you fight against.

Okay, would you want to fight my build which has 46k HP and a 2.5k-5.5k heal every second off one passive, along with enough burst to 100-0 anyone who isn’t 35k+ HP?

Wanna see that vs anyone competent

Sure, give me names.

Anyone with Inhale and SnB.

I highly doubt you can accumulate enough damage alongside the necessary pen to burn 32k HP, 35k res plus another form of mitigation (not even accounting Block) within 2 gcds. Thats the window you get before your opponent is back to full HP.

Ardent line wont get adjusted, lets be real here. And since this is the reality of how an enabler that line is atm class masteries should at least incentivize to not subclass it. Those are prone to be adjusted alongside their class reworks anyway.
Its sad how bad NB and Plar passives are.

Why not? I have 143% crit damage, 50% crit chance, 13k pen before Onslaught, 3 damage CPs, 6k WD, and 23k stam. These stats are more than enough to consistently do 3.5-4k DPS vs most people, and when Onslaught is active, it's a straight nuke

Thanks to the neat addon anybody serious will simply dodge and kite Onslaught/Corro. As you say vs most ppl thats more than enough but lets face it, 80% of opponents you encounter duels aside are cannonfodder.

Using your logic, high level players in any versus mode, whether it's sports or e-sports, are cannonfodder then. They still make bloopers from time to time.

I mean you are free to try fighting me if you're so sure that my opponents are incompetent. Put your gameplay where your mouth is.

There is some truth to it. If I get hit by Onslaught or Corrosive, I will definitely run away for 10 seconds unless I know the player is so harmless that it's better to abuse the greedy channeling that tends to follow after Onslaught.
I know this is not how planned duels are done. People try to tank through everything.

At least Sorc's should not die to the aftermath of either of these ults (through kiting) unless the following burst is simply too surprising and sudden.

Well, you would already be one-shotted when you are hit by Onslaught, like in this clip:

https://youtu.be/pkcebz38VIQ

Most of my kills are like this. I stun them a couple times first but don't follow up, then they drop their guard the next stun and I'll use the Onslaught combo to 1 shot. If an opponent is very good at dodging the stun, I'll just Onslaught without it. If they block or run away after the Onslaught, then i'll just heavy attack during that time to restore resources. My damage is decent enough to do good pressure without the ult anyway.

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Thats not what I wrote at all lol. 20% of encounters (thats vs competent ppl) end up in a stalemate or lag rngjesus swings the favor to one side.
Maybe you misread/misinterpreted that?

No, I understood what you meant. What I wanted to say is that you are using the word "competent" and "perfect" interchangably, which is not true. Just because they are competent players doesn't mean they won't eventually make mistakes. I've had a fair share of stalemate duels vs competent players and the only reason those stalemates even happened was because both of us built tanky enough to survive each other's one shot combo. When a 1 shot combo is powerful enough to 100-0 someone, it is only a matter of time before one person finally dies from a mistake or like you said, lag rngjesus.

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Thats not what I wrote at all lol. 20% of encounters (thats vs competent ppl) end up in a stalemate or lag rngjesus swings the favor to one side.
Maybe you misread/misinterpreted that?

No, I understood what you meant. What I wanted to say is that you are using the word "competent" and "perfect" interchangably, which is not true. Just because they are competent players doesn't mean they won't eventually make mistakes. I've had a fair share of stalemate duels vs competent players and the only reason those stalemates even happened was because both of us built tanky enough to survive each other's one shot combo. When a 1 shot combo is powerful enough to 100-0 someone, it is only a matter of time before one person finally dies from a mistake or like you said, lag rngjesus.

True. And thats my point CoE should stay as it is. Ys made very clear how potent Ardent is. The pureclass masteries have at least be feasible to compete.

Core of flame shouldnt enter into a discussion about balance other than how it should be nerfed because of how obviously busted it is. Rest of the kit for ardent flame and dk in general is imo fine, strong but not problematic. Saying something should be on that level imo immediately discredits anything you can ever say about balance

RedKynAbyss wrote: »

DK doesn’t need nerfs, the other classes just need buffs. The whole point was to bring pure class builds up to snuff, and now that pure class DK is doing that, people want it nerfed. You need to be patient and let them get to the other reworks. Let something other than Arcanist be meta for once, considering it has been the meta class since it released 3 years ago.

If you believe that why did you revive this lol? It was a few posts from being off of the main page.

OP has being going around asking for nerfs just about everywhere you can think about. It isn’t surprising they have this opinion. They are of the ‘dueling must be a noble, cheeseless experience’ (maarse monster doesn’t count apparently, that’s ‘skill’) mindset.

All I want is more identifiable animations for PvP so I can better see what’s happening especially in the heat of battle. I hope they consider that with future reworks and then maybe adjust animations slightly so not everything appears like ‘big flame’ later on to the average opponent in PvP (but I mean, the animations do like VERY good imo in a vacuum).

Wuuffyy wrote: »

OP has being going around asking for nerfs just about everywhere you can think about. It isn’t surprising they have this opinion.

Only the stuff that needs nerfing. Did you see me asking for NB or Templar class mastery nerfs?

Wuuffyy wrote: »

They are of the ‘dueling must be a noble, cheeseless experience’ (maarse monster doesn’t count apparently, that’s ‘skill’) mindset.

When did I say "dueling must be a noble, cheeseless experience"? If you cannot understand how problematic it is to do 2.8k DPS off 2 procs, then I don't think we can ever talk about balance in PvP. I really cannot be bothered explaining it again, especially after multiple pages of comments between me, @React, and other players pointing out the issue of free damage.