SUPRISE ! People dont like VENGEANCE

Tonturri · April 29

The issue of onboarding players into PvP is a valid one. I don't think I've ever seen a game that has PvP and doesn't have this issue****....In a large scale PvP mode. Of course, it gets better in more instanced content with a rating system and that sort of thing, but putting that aside since Vengeance is about Cyrodiil.

While I can appreciate Vengeance, it seems the devs were just trying to boil us frogs by initially shipping it as a temporary test. They seem to be focusing resources on Vengeance as a band-aid fix to other issues. They're doing Vengeance instead of:
- Getting better at armor set effect design
- Getting better at class design
- Getting better at map design (Cyrodiil was too big even on launch)
- Getting better at designing open world PvE content to train players to do more than just light attack
- Etc

It's the same issue as Battle Spirit/splitting up PvE and PvP balancing. It can be a huge boon, but can also easily result in 'oh, we can just add this to the game and disable it in PvP, it'll be fine'. Which, sure, that works, but only up until the devs find some years down the road that they now have two completely different games and struggle to maintain both (or, as is more common, toss PvP to the curb).

Don't need to get better at armor set effect design if they're all disabled. Neat. Don't need to do better class design if the classes are all extremely simplified. Don't need to get better at map design if...Well. That's not going away tbh and has no mitigating factors. Don't need to get better at designing onboarding PvE content if everything is super simple in PvP land. Ugh.

MincMincMinc · April 29

Tonturri wrote: »

The issue of onboarding players into PvP is a valid one. I don't think I've ever seen a game that has PvP and doesn't have this issue****....In a large scale PvP mode. Of course, it gets better in more instanced content with a rating system and that sort of thing, but putting that aside since Vengeance is about Cyrodiil.

While I can appreciate Vengeance, it seems the devs were just trying to boil us frogs by initially shipping it as a temporary test. They seem to be focusing resources on Vengeance as a band-aid fix to other issues. They're doing Vengeance instead of:
- Getting better at armor set effect design
- Getting better at class design
- Getting better at map design (Cyrodiil was too big even on launch)
- Getting better at designing open world PvE content to train players to do more than just light attack
- Etc

It's the same issue as Battle Spirit/splitting up PvE and PvP balancing. It can be a huge boon, but can also easily result in 'oh, we can just add this to the game and disable it in PvP, it'll be fine'. Which, sure, that works, but only up until the devs find some years down the road that they now have two completely different games and struggle to maintain both (or, as is more common, toss PvP to the curb).

Don't need to get better at armor set effect design if they're all disabled. Neat. Don't need to do better class design if the classes are all extremely simplified. Don't need to get better at map design if...Well. That's not going away tbh and has no mitigating factors. Don't need to get better at designing onboarding PvE content if everything is super simple in PvP land. Ugh.

Well to some degree, they do need to learn how to do all the above for PvE as well. We already see in GH that you can make such calc dense lag situations with even just 2-3 ballgroups dueling off to the side of a keep without any other fights on the map. Sure there are a lot of people in the server, but if zos keeps wanting to do these PvE events at one point or another they are going to run into similar situations. That being said it does look like zos is giving up on pvp again by just cutting pop caps and forcing GH into a mini one keep campaign.

I'd like to say they used veng as a learning moment to figure out how to design skills from the ground up and know how it affects performance. However we already saw them rolling out class reworks before they tested re-introducing proc effects through skills, passives, enchants, cp, sets, status effects, etc. IDK maybe they did internal testing, but engineering wise I don't think that would be close to representative data for real players choosing the most abhorrent combinations to do the most effects during the most taxing situations like pushing breaches or ult dumping.

I'd still wager there are many many simple changes they could do to avoid propagating lag with slight or insignificant impacts to gameplay. Things like maybe status effects shouldn't be by chance and instead could be applied by skills like dk fire breath or B4B for example. Imagine the thousands of checks and dice rolls that go on for each tick to check for whether a status effect applies. Originally this is probably why phys and mag damage didn't have status effects because they'd be more commonly used and spammed.

Shourrs · April 29

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

No. The best way to determine the popularity of something is to offer both at the same time and see where they go. No needs for polls or surveys, just let people vote with their feet.

Well, no. Scientifically speaking you need identical environments. All campaigns must be reset before the start, all rewards must be identical. People need to test both modes to know what they are signing up for. You need to decide what to do with people visiting both campaigns - or making the choice exclusive for an account which changes the outcome itself as people might remain in a campaign to support their guild/team. You need to establish if you want to test for the number of different accounts logging, the duration accounts are staying within the campaign, check that against log-in limitations, ... speaking of, the limitations should be identically - and as Vengeance is made to test 300 players/fraction instead of 120 in GH, you would have to adjust GH limitations (or abandon the test making the whole comparison futile). This would bias the feet vote probably as lags would increase driving people away from the campaign. Then you need to test active vs. inactive players. Just to see if people are logging in to support their preferred game mode without really playing (which would be an interesting social study in itself).

And that is just a stream of consciousness - no real test setup. So there are tons of things I didn't even consider.

Your approach is good but it needs numbers. The more the better. In an environment where access is limited by a maximum of accounts being logged in simultaneously, that means you need time. The more the better.

Or we could take a snapshot when Vengeance is full saying that there are 900 people playing it, which is almost trice the numbers in GH where "only" 360 people are online. Vengeance wins. GH loses. Peoples vote? Yes. Science? No.

Shourrs · April 29

LadyGP wrote: »

You do have a choice. You can totally just sit inside a keep on siege and pew pew people from a mile away. Or, you can try to pull people in and fight them, or you can zerg surf (support from others) and fight people and learn.

The problem is people expect to just load into cyrodiil.. charge right at someone.. and kill them with a few clicks and that simply isn't how it works.

I remember when ESO first launched and I went to the lvl 30 zone when I was lvl 15 and I got my butt handed to me... I went back to the right zone, got some gear... learned some things.. came back to the lvl 30 zone and had a blast.

The whole mindset of.. I've hardly ever been in cyro (or am a casual) and expect to charge headfirst and get 20+ kills in a few minutes is just... it's just not it fam. Thats not how any successfull MMORPG PvP system works.

They are gritty, hard, boot in your face, pick yourself out of the mud, kind of systems.. and I say this as someone who gets my butt handed to me all the time by people in Cyro.

Ah. Okay. Conversation is over.

xylena · April 29

Wild guess: ZOS knows exactly how popular Vengeance and GH are. They have the data.

Shourrs · April 29

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

So Yea... People can't expect to kick butts of players who play this game for years without putting some effort in the game and without mastering the mechanics.

Most people don't expect to kick butts from the start. Many are scared off by the huge gap between newbie and pro.
But I said enough. I don't think people want

xylena wrote: »

Wild guess: ZOS knows exactly how popular Vengeance and GH are. They have the data.

I don't think that they are testing popularity. It doesn't make sense at this point.

xylena · April 29

Shourrs wrote: »

I don't think that they are testing popularity. It doesn't make sense at this point.

You don't think they keep track of how many people play their game?

There are many GH players here who think ZOS competent enough to "fix" GH but not competent enough to count how many people play their PvP modes. That's what makes no sense.

Shourrs · April 29

xylena wrote: »

Shourrs wrote: »

I don't think that they are testing popularity. It doesn't make sense at this point.

You don't think they keep track of how many people play their game?

There are many GH players here who think ZOS competent enough to "fix" GH but not competent enough to count how many people play their PvP modes. That's what makes no sense.

They keep track. I am pretty sure they do. But I don't think that they are testing popularity. Not yet. There are too many tests going on. They know that the data of logged-in people doesn't reflect if they liked it, what they did like and more importantly - they don't know why people don't participate. Too many variables and too short testing period to get interesting data on acceptance.

Iriidius · April 30

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

The burn off of grey host has to be massive though. Walk in, don't have a meta build, get rofl-stomped. No content creators that are easily accessible for PvP builds. Try to workshop your own. Get rofl-stomped. Spend 2-3 months getting rofl-stomped until you learn on your own or join a PvP guild. Watch someone 1v10 you and your 9 other newbie friends. The time investment to even be VIABLE is insane. Most casuals are never going to do this, and Cyrodil is meant to be accessible to all, its not meant to be a Trifecta Trial.

Vs. Vengance

Walk in - Click 1 button - you are at approximately the same level and abilities as everyone else playing. No one can 1v10 you. No one can even 1v5 you. The most they can do is stay alive if they rock a tank build. Now your PvP experience is about skill, not gear knowledge. Your abilitiy to understand the landscape and utilize a restrictive set of abilities to optimal results, not your theorycrafting for 200 hours. Now your PvP experience is about LARGE GROUP COORDINATION not small group warfare (which is what 4's and 8's were designed for). Small group warfare is there, but 5 people can no longer kill 20.

Explain to me why Grey Host is better for new players? I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I run one of the largest Social guilds on PC-NA and my members wont do Grey Host regularly but were eating up Vengeance this week.

If you stepped in with 12 new players to a vet trial or dungeon, especially dlc, you will also get roflstomped, unless being hard carried.

Greyhost PvP is meant, again, for end game players. Its something to occupy your time when you've done everything else, and even then, all you gotta do is ask one of the more casual guilds to pick you up, they'll help you be ready to pvp in less than a day or so. They have guild halls to craft sets for you, even put up free sets in the bank, and thats half the battle right there.

It doesn't take long at all, you have to put up effort just like any other piece of content in the game.

And it definitely doesn't take that long to theorycraft builds, especially if all you wanna do is zerg. If all you want to do is get kills and zerg, just take an alcast build up and go from there. Plenty of the so called sweaty gh players people complain about are doing that anyway and die in a few hits same as the newcomers, but they have fun anyway.

Dying is a part of cyrodiil, everyone does in GH contrary to the complaints here.

12 new players don’t (want nor) have to do vet dlc dungeons because there are are easier options and they just can (and will) do a normal basegame dungeon instead.

In PvP 12 new players also don’t want to fight against veterans and would choose easier PvP options if they could and many of them chose Vengeance when it was up.
But when Vengeance is down there is no PvP campaign where new players can have fun and not get farmed by meta builds and you want take it down forever.
Cant complain new players want to be able to do endgame content if you don't give them an alternative.

Alcast builds are so outdated you might as well go afk and stay in your PvE build when a player with meta build focusses you because no Input keeping you alive exists. Great experience if you keep your HoTs and buffs up, block/dodge the burst combos and still get killed by rest dmg as if you did nothing and/or run out of stamina.

BardokRedSnow · April 30

xylena wrote: »

Wild guess: ZOS knows exactly how popular Vengeance and GH are. They have the data.

Yea which is exactly why they didn't offer greyhost alongside the last vengeance test.

BardokRedSnow · April 30

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

The burn off of grey host has to be massive though. Walk in, don't have a meta build, get rofl-stomped. No content creators that are easily accessible for PvP builds. Try to workshop your own. Get rofl-stomped. Spend 2-3 months getting rofl-stomped until you learn on your own or join a PvP guild. Watch someone 1v10 you and your 9 other newbie friends. The time investment to even be VIABLE is insane. Most casuals are never going to do this, and Cyrodil is meant to be accessible to all, its not meant to be a Trifecta Trial.

Vs. Vengance

Walk in - Click 1 button - you are at approximately the same level and abilities as everyone else playing. No one can 1v10 you. No one can even 1v5 you. The most they can do is stay alive if they rock a tank build. Now your PvP experience is about skill, not gear knowledge. Your abilitiy to understand the landscape and utilize a restrictive set of abilities to optimal results, not your theorycrafting for 200 hours. Now your PvP experience is about LARGE GROUP COORDINATION not small group warfare (which is what 4's and 8's were designed for). Small group warfare is there, but 5 people can no longer kill 20.

Explain to me why Grey Host is better for new players? I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I run one of the largest Social guilds on PC-NA and my members wont do Grey Host regularly but were eating up Vengeance this week.

If you stepped in with 12 new players to a vet trial or dungeon, especially dlc, you will also get roflstomped, unless being hard carried.

Greyhost PvP is meant, again, for end game players. Its something to occupy your time when you've done everything else, and even then, all you gotta do is ask one of the more casual guilds to pick you up, they'll help you be ready to pvp in less than a day or so. They have guild halls to craft sets for you, even put up free sets in the bank, and thats half the battle right there.

It doesn't take long at all, you have to put up effort just like any other piece of content in the game.

And it definitely doesn't take that long to theorycraft builds, especially if all you wanna do is zerg. If all you want to do is get kills and zerg, just take an alcast build up and go from there. Plenty of the so called sweaty gh players people complain about are doing that anyway and die in a few hits same as the newcomers, but they have fun anyway.

Dying is a part of cyrodiil, everyone does in GH contrary to the complaints here.

Cant complain new players want to be able to do endgame content if you don't give them an alternative.

You absolutely can because their alternate content is pve, below 50, ravenwatch, and BR.

Iriidius · April 30

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

The burn off of grey host has to be massive though. Walk in, don't have a meta build, get rofl-stomped. No content creators that are easily accessible for PvP builds. Try to workshop your own. Get rofl-stomped. Spend 2-3 months getting rofl-stomped until you learn on your own or join a PvP guild. Watch someone 1v10 you and your 9 other newbie friends. The time investment to even be VIABLE is insane. Most casuals are never going to do this, and Cyrodil is meant to be accessible to all, its not meant to be a Trifecta Trial.

Vs. Vengance

Walk in - Click 1 button - you are at approximately the same level and abilities as everyone else playing. No one can 1v10 you. No one can even 1v5 you. The most they can do is stay alive if they rock a tank build. Now your PvP experience is about skill, not gear knowledge. Your abilitiy to understand the landscape and utilize a restrictive set of abilities to optimal results, not your theorycrafting for 200 hours. Now your PvP experience is about LARGE GROUP COORDINATION not small group warfare (which is what 4's and 8's were designed for). Small group warfare is there, but 5 people can no longer kill 20.

Explain to me why Grey Host is better for new players? I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I run one of the largest Social guilds on PC-NA and my members wont do Grey Host regularly but were eating up Vengeance this week.

If you stepped in with 12 new players to a vet trial or dungeon, especially dlc, you will also get roflstomped, unless being hard carried.

Greyhost PvP is meant, again, for end game players. Its something to occupy your time when you've done everything else, and even then, all you gotta do is ask one of the more casual guilds to pick you up, they'll help you be ready to pvp in less than a day or so. They have guild halls to craft sets for you, even put up free sets in the bank, and thats half the battle right there.

It doesn't take long at all, you have to put up effort just like any other piece of content in the game.

And it definitely doesn't take that long to theorycraft builds, especially if all you wanna do is zerg. If all you want to do is get kills and zerg, just take an alcast build up and go from there. Plenty of the so called sweaty gh players people complain about are doing that anyway and die in a few hits same as the newcomers, but they have fun anyway.

Dying is a part of cyrodiil, everyone does in GH contrary to the complaints here.

Cant complain new players want to be able to do endgame content if you don't give them an alternative.

You absolutely can because their alternate content is pve, below 50, ravenwatch, and BR.

Blackreach, Ravenwatch and Icecap have mostly the same ruleset as GreyHost. Their ruleset is barely new-player-friendlier than GreyHost and the only reason you have less veterans there is that its less active.
When enaugh beginners go there the veterans follow to farm them. Despite you calling them alternative for new players veterans still want to keep their ruleset in new players campaign rather than letting the new players decide.

DeathandDebaucherys GreyHost experience is overall the same in BR, RE and u50.
Players naming GreyHost in this debate often mean the GreyHost ruleset also applying to BR, RW and u50. You are comparing Vengeance to GreyHost to show why you dont want it to replace the other 3 yourself so cant pretend they are something else.

BardokRedSnow · April 30

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

The burn off of grey host has to be massive though. Walk in, don't have a meta build, get rofl-stomped. No content creators that are easily accessible for PvP builds. Try to workshop your own. Get rofl-stomped. Spend 2-3 months getting rofl-stomped until you learn on your own or join a PvP guild. Watch someone 1v10 you and your 9 other newbie friends. The time investment to even be VIABLE is insane. Most casuals are never going to do this, and Cyrodil is meant to be accessible to all, its not meant to be a Trifecta Trial.

Vs. Vengance

Walk in - Click 1 button - you are at approximately the same level and abilities as everyone else playing. No one can 1v10 you. No one can even 1v5 you. The most they can do is stay alive if they rock a tank build. Now your PvP experience is about skill, not gear knowledge. Your abilitiy to understand the landscape and utilize a restrictive set of abilities to optimal results, not your theorycrafting for 200 hours. Now your PvP experience is about LARGE GROUP COORDINATION not small group warfare (which is what 4's and 8's were designed for). Small group warfare is there, but 5 people can no longer kill 20.

Explain to me why Grey Host is better for new players? I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I run one of the largest Social guilds on PC-NA and my members wont do Grey Host regularly but were eating up Vengeance this week.

If you stepped in with 12 new players to a vet trial or dungeon, especially dlc, you will also get roflstomped, unless being hard carried.

Greyhost PvP is meant, again, for end game players. Its something to occupy your time when you've done everything else, and even then, all you gotta do is ask one of the more casual guilds to pick you up, they'll help you be ready to pvp in less than a day or so. They have guild halls to craft sets for you, even put up free sets in the bank, and thats half the battle right there.

It doesn't take long at all, you have to put up effort just like any other piece of content in the game.

And it definitely doesn't take that long to theorycraft builds, especially if all you wanna do is zerg. If all you want to do is get kills and zerg, just take an alcast build up and go from there. Plenty of the so called sweaty gh players people complain about are doing that anyway and die in a few hits same as the newcomers, but they have fun anyway.

Dying is a part of cyrodiil, everyone does in GH contrary to the complaints here.

Cant complain new players want to be able to do endgame content if you don't give them an alternative.

You absolutely can because their alternate content is pve, below 50, ravenwatch, and BR.

the only reason you have less veterans there is that its less active.

that and because its not locked out which is also a part of the whole casual campaign thing, if you're wanting an easier time, log into the faction that is zerging the most. Thats exactly what they did in vengeance the last time, literally no difference.

Iriidius · April 30

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

The burn off of grey host has to be massive though. Walk in, don't have a meta build, get rofl-stomped. No content creators that are easily accessible for PvP builds. Try to workshop your own. Get rofl-stomped. Spend 2-3 months getting rofl-stomped until you learn on your own or join a PvP guild. Watch someone 1v10 you and your 9 other newbie friends. The time investment to even be VIABLE is insane. Most casuals are never going to do this, and Cyrodil is meant to be accessible to all, its not meant to be a Trifecta Trial.

Vs. Vengance

Walk in - Click 1 button - you are at approximately the same level and abilities as everyone else playing. No one can 1v10 you. No one can even 1v5 you. The most they can do is stay alive if they rock a tank build. Now your PvP experience is about skill, not gear knowledge. Your abilitiy to understand the landscape and utilize a restrictive set of abilities to optimal results, not your theorycrafting for 200 hours. Now your PvP experience is about LARGE GROUP COORDINATION not small group warfare (which is what 4's and 8's were designed for). Small group warfare is there, but 5 people can no longer kill 20.

Explain to me why Grey Host is better for new players? I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I run one of the largest Social guilds on PC-NA and my members wont do Grey Host regularly but were eating up Vengeance this week.

If you stepped in with 12 new players to a vet trial or dungeon, especially dlc, you will also get roflstomped, unless being hard carried.

Greyhost PvP is meant, again, for end game players. Its something to occupy your time when you've done everything else, and even then, all you gotta do is ask one of the more casual guilds to pick you up, they'll help you be ready to pvp in less than a day or so. They have guild halls to craft sets for you, even put up free sets in the bank, and thats half the battle right there.

It doesn't take long at all, you have to put up effort just like any other piece of content in the game.

And it definitely doesn't take that long to theorycraft builds, especially if all you wanna do is zerg. If all you want to do is get kills and zerg, just take an alcast build up and go from there. Plenty of the so called sweaty gh players people complain about are doing that anyway and die in a few hits same as the newcomers, but they have fun anyway.

Dying is a part of cyrodiil, everyone does in GH contrary to the complaints here.

Cant complain new players want to be able to do endgame content if you don't give them an alternative.

You absolutely can because their alternate content is pve, below 50, ravenwatch, and BR.

the only reason you have less veterans there is that its less active.

that and because its not locked out which is also a part of the whole casual campaign thing, if you're wanting an easier time, log into the faction that is zerging the most. Thats exactly what they did in vengeance the last time, literally no difference.

Dont really need faction swap to play on the faction that is zerging the most in Blackreach. Usually it is the same faction zerging at the same time of day for multiple month, so you can change to alliance strongest during your schedule and stay there for month and still be almost always on the winning side with faction lock.
And players who don’t have good build are not always the same players winning in numbers.
Players who outnumber you and players who
have better build both want an advantage over a balanced fight.
Many veterans choose to Xv1 when they could win almost every duel and some beginners try to play solo (but usually get killed so often they quit or start hiding in zerg).

Vaqual · April 30

xylena wrote: »

Wild guess: ZOS knows exactly how popular Vengeance and GH are. They have the data.

Right. Luckily there have never been instances were people have acted against better judgement to salvage failed operations.

xR3ACTORx · May 1

Iriidius wrote: »

But when Vengeance is down there is no PvP campaign where new players can have fun and not get farmed by meta builds and you want take it down forever.
Cant complain new players want to be able to do endgame content if you don't give them an alternative.

When I was new I started pvp in GH. I got my butt kicked, got up again and learned how to pvp in GH, IC and BGs.

Everyone in GH started at zero.
Everyone in GH was a new player.

I could even go that far and say vengeance robs new pvp players of the experience of getting good.

amiiegee · May 1

They know vengeance isn’t popular, hence why no survey results anymore

Shourrs · May 1

I don't think this discussion makes much sense.

One fraction is against Vengeance because they are afraid that their game mode will be replaced by a boring one. This is absolutely understandable.
This fraction also sees PVP from the top with a more distinctive view on the existing campaigns. For them, playing outside of GH is already casual. They don't see that playing outside GH often is worse as there (often) are no groups but still all disadvantages. A small group of good players is sufficient to disrupt everything. They are bored outside GH and if they would play there, they would be the ones winning. Again, no blame there. It's their perspective.

The other fraction likes Vengeance, because they don't like the current game mode. They either don't care if it will be replaced, or just want an alternative to that. I think that this is understandable, too.
This fraction has a bottom view on things. They don't see much of a difference between GH and the other existing campaigns. All of them seen hard and not rewarding at all. Different perspective, different result.

Maybe we take Deadland Demolisher as an example: The first group doesn't see a problem. They break the build and the damage applied by the bashs aren't an issue. Ergo: The whole set is a joke to them. The second group is to weak to penetrate the armor but can be chased down and bashed to death. Ergo: It's no fun.

Of course you can learn how to counter it. But with all the builds flying around it is very much to take in at once. And if you don't have the time or the capacity to process it, you give up.

From my personal point of view, ESO PVP is just bad, unbalanced and beginner unfriendly. This includes the PVP community.
I liked PVP some years ago. Now I hate it. It's okay. I've accepted long time ago that PVP is nothing for me. And if it wouldn't affect PVE because there are skills and sets you need, and if ZoS would stop giving out ingame currencies I want to have, I just would ignore it.

And when I read things like that people are just to lazy to learn "proper" PVP and should stop whining, I know why. From my perspective that's just toxic arrogance. Something I encounter too often in all of PVP modes.This make me questions my "don't replace GH by Vengeance" statements as am infected by those toxins. I don't like to be that guy. I know that this behavior doesn't represent the PVP community. So I just stop discussions.

For me, Vengeance is an opportunity to make PVP better. We don't know how it will look in the end, so it might be better or worse than what we have. As I don't like what we have, worse is unlikely, so I support ZoS' efforts and hope for the best. I understand that for those who are in generally feeling good about the current state, it's the opposite - risk to break things is too big.

This is why I'd like to keep both. This would be a solution for both fractions. GH rule set and VGC rule set That seems to much for some people here.

xylena · May 1

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Yea which is exactly why they didn't offer greyhost

GH is live and not going anywhere, yet you're still here arguing over Vengeance. Huh.

BardokRedSnow · May 1

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Yea which is exactly why they didn't offer greyhost

GH is live and not going anywhere, yet you're still here arguing over Vengeance. Huh.

Yes, it is that bad, the fans are that annoying, and the disrespect from the tests removing Greyhost was that high.

You had Vengeance live also and spent more time commenting here than in the tests, zero seconds in if I recall. I at least play my favorite game mode.

Iriidius · May 1

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

But when Vengeance is down there is no PvP campaign where new players can have fun and not get farmed by meta builds and you want take it down forever.
Cant complain new players want to be able to do endgame content if you don't give them an alternative.

When I was new I started pvp in GH. I got my butt kicked, got up again and learned how to pvp in GH, IC and BGs.

Everyone in GH started at zero.
Everyone in GH was a new player.

I could even go that far and say vengeance robs new pvp players of the experience of getting good.

Years ago when veterans were new players the players they were fighting were mostly also new players or at least much newer than now.
Learning mechanics and getting a build isnt even the biggest burden nowadays and wont make GreyHost an enjoyable experience when you have to play with players who didn’t because the good don’t want to recognize you getting good and don‘t let you in their team or fight you fairly.

If new players dont want „get robbed“ of the experience of getting good“ in GreyHost by Vengeance they can still decide to start PvPing in GreyHost. They can also decide to switch to GreyHost at any time after starting in Vengeance.
But when they decide to let „Vengeance rob the experience of getting good“ from them because they hate that experience, Vengeance did them a favor. And most players hate that experience so much it makes them quit before they get good.

LadyGP · May 1

xylena wrote: »

Wild guess: ZOS knows exactly how popular Vengeance and GH are. They have the data.

"Popular" is a very subjective thing. I hope I am wrong in this but from the streams where they showed the analytics it really seems like they are claiming success simply from a number of players overlayed with server performance charts.

When the vast majoriity of your core GH audince, who has stuck with you through years and years of neglect, take a week off vs logging into a camp to provide you with feedback... you've missed the mark IMO.

xylena · May 1

LadyGP wrote: »

When the vast majoriity of your core GH audince

This audience is neither as numerous nor significant as it thinks it is.

MincMincMinc · May 1

LadyGP wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Wild guess: ZOS knows exactly how popular Vengeance and GH are. They have the data.

"Popular" is a very subjective thing. I hope I am wrong in this but from the streams where they showed the analytics it really seems like they are claiming success simply from a number of players overlayed with server performance charts.

When the vast majoriity of your core GH audince, who has stuck with you through years and years of neglect, take a week off vs logging into a camp to provide you with feedback... you've missed the mark IMO.

You should also add that they claimed server performance victory, except their playerbase is different which could heavily skew the data. Do we think 900 pugs strains the server the same as 900 ballgroup players? From daily GH we have a 360pop with another ~50 in que per faction. So nightly we could potentially fill 600 or so actual pvp players.

As far as I know zos never tells us whether they play with the servers during MyM events. However people always notice a performance difference. We could easily contribute that to the servers being diluted with pugs who simply dont strain the server as bad.

amiiegee · May 1

xylena wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

When the vast majoriity of your core GH audince

This audience is neither as numerous nor significant as it thinks it is.

Based on what data?
Watch vengeance being empty when GH and vengeance are both up 😂

ceruulean · May 1

Ah yes Greyhost, I went to town when my faction had 3 bars, so not quite poplocked but will be primetime soon, and found 3-4 questers that get 1 shot by a fairly standard pvp build (not a gank build). Greyhost is only for experienced vets, of course.

Can't wait for DK fest where every other class is unviable. And the coming patches where it'll just be sorc/DK/werewolf.

Had a Cyrodiil player tell me about my low skill faction where there's a ball-group of 12 people running around in 40k+ tank builds and they can't kill anyone until the raid lead tells them to light attack the same target. Yeah I guess Greyhost is super endgame where only the good PvPers are.

moderatelyfatman · May 1

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DeathandDebauchery wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The idea that greyhost doesnt get new players, Im not sure where that comes from but thats not the case, we get new players jumping in every campaign, and especially a big influx after midyear mayhem. And no I dont just mean the name changes or returning banned players on new accounts, etc.

The burn off of grey host has to be massive though. Walk in, don't have a meta build, get rofl-stomped. No content creators that are easily accessible for PvP builds. Try to workshop your own. Get rofl-stomped. Spend 2-3 months getting rofl-stomped until you learn on your own or join a PvP guild. Watch someone 1v10 you and your 9 other newbie friends. The time investment to even be VIABLE is insane. Most casuals are never going to do this, and Cyrodil is meant to be accessible to all, its not meant to be a Trifecta Trial.

Vs. Vengance

Walk in - Click 1 button - you are at approximately the same level and abilities as everyone else playing. No one can 1v10 you. No one can even 1v5 you. The most they can do is stay alive if they rock a tank build. Now your PvP experience is about skill, not gear knowledge. Your abilitiy to understand the landscape and utilize a restrictive set of abilities to optimal results, not your theorycrafting for 200 hours. Now your PvP experience is about LARGE GROUP COORDINATION not small group warfare (which is what 4's and 8's were designed for). Small group warfare is there, but 5 people can no longer kill 20.

Explain to me why Grey Host is better for new players? I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I run one of the largest Social guilds on PC-NA and my members wont do Grey Host regularly but were eating up Vengeance this week.

If you stepped in with 12 new players to a vet trial or dungeon, especially dlc, you will also get roflstomped, unless being hard carried.

Greyhost PvP is meant, again, for end game players. Its something to occupy your time when you've done everything else, and even then, all you gotta do is ask one of the more casual guilds to pick you up, they'll help you be ready to pvp in less than a day or so. They have guild halls to craft sets for you, even put up free sets in the bank, and thats half the battle right there.

It doesn't take long at all, you have to put up effort just like any other piece of content in the game.

And it definitely doesn't take that long to theorycraft builds, especially if all you wanna do is zerg. If all you want to do is get kills and zerg, just take an alcast build up and go from there. Plenty of the so called sweaty gh players people complain about are doing that anyway and die in a few hits same as the newcomers, but they have fun anyway.

Dying is a part of cyrodiil, everyone does in GH contrary to the complaints here.

Cant complain new players want to be able to do endgame content if you don't give them an alternative.

You absolutely can because their alternate content is pve, below 50, ravenwatch, and BR.

I think most people have no problem with a permanent Vengeance being this alternative. The main issue here is when ZOS treats it as a zero sum game.

moderatelyfatman · May 1

ceruulean wrote: »

Can't wait for DK fest where every other class is unviable. And the coming patches where it'll just be sorc/DK/werewolf.

Yep, 12 years out from launch and we're all signed up for testing until 2028.
No thanks, I'm going to do something else and come back when ESO gets out of beta.

amiiegee · May 3

At least now the night market distracts a bit of how much of a fail the vengeance campaign is and will be

blktauna · May 3

This is not a zero sum game, man. Keep that in mind