Vengeance mode for trials, arena's and trifectas now

Poss · April 29

Heronisan wrote: »

Even if u where handed a build with 70k hp, and doing less dmg, just like u do less dmg in Vengeance compared to GH, one shot mechs will still kill you, ur max hp is not the problem in PvE, again, its mostly lack of dps and mechs, there are also dots, that deal dmg based on ur max HP, the more HP u have, the more dot dmg u take, to the point healers cant outheal it

This is where you’re wrong. Vengeance trials would be heavily watered down to reduce strain on the server. So your buff bar wouldn’t be filled to the brim with debuffs, Hoarfrost timers and all the other annoying things you have to monitor like Ice mechs.

Also group wipe mechanics would also be removed since people don’t like being bombed. It creates lingering trauma.

BXR_Lonestar · April 29

It wouldn't work.

Heals don't heal enough people (limited to 3 people usually). Damage can't damage fast enough (combined DPS would only be ~60-80k, whereas a single DPS right now is pulling nearly double that), and even though you would have more health, tanks wouldn't have the ability to support the group other than by holding taunt.

Overall, Vengence really doesn't make sense in ESO other than in a stripped-down version of PVP, and it really only makes sense if you're going to have 1000's of players show up and have mega-battles. But where nobody shows up, Vengeance is really boring and not fun to play at all.

Aydh · April 29

would be interesting to see how balancing would have to change around premade chars.

BagOfBadgers · April 29

I see the same people asking for PvE Vengeance, cool whatever. But do you all really think ZOS will balance EVERYTHING around the Vengance builds, do you, or is this again a strike out at players who support their anti Vengance shutdown stance?

Otherwise this is another troll post. Carry on, I need a laugh.

spartaxoxo · April 29

Renato90085 wrote: »

is this self deprecation?

It's "misery loves company."

ETA
The suggestion is coming from folks who are very vocal of their hatred of vengeance and their anger that vengeance removed GH during the testing phases. So, this is a well then PvE should have to have it too! post. Meant to make people share in the misery of PvP, likely in the hopes it will drum up new anti vengeance support by making PvE players put themselves in their shoes.

The issue with the argument is that it completely ignores that PvE already has a normal trial. So, people who just want to learn the mechs of a trial without having to worry about a build may already do so.

It also completely ignores that PvP didn't have an equivalent experience where having vet gear was not necessary. Ravenwatch and Icereach were dominated by builds too. And the only time that at least proc sets weren't part of that equation, established PvPers pushed back until that change was reverted. Which was ultimately a good thing because that change did not change the importance of builds, it just made it even more confusing on what even worked.

Players engaging in normal trials do not need to do any research to join and successfully clear ncr. PvP, unlike PvE, puts players in direct competition with each other. So it matters what all players are wearing unlike PvE normal trials. So this suggestion is a false equivalence.

ETA 2

FYI, false equivalence is simply the name of concept. It's not the same as lying. Using an equivalent experience to draw a comparison is a valid rhetorical strategy but it can run into trouble if the comparison being made is only superficially similar.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQv2CORHEiIT_r_gjI7B28hB_X0aQqm8NXcz8BZhvQHWNd-IT_E_Gesc0Y&s=10

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQv2CORHEiIT_r_gjI7B28hB_X0aQqm8NXcz8BZhvQHWNd-IT_E_Gesc0Y&s=10

xR3ACTORx · April 29

Vengeance PvE would also show who really has skills and who is just carried by sets

xR3ACTORx · April 29

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

is this self deprecation?

It's "misery loves company."

ETA
The suggestion is coming from folks who are very vocal of their hatred of vengeance and their anger that vengeance removed GH during the testing phases. So, this is a well then PvE should have to have it too! post. Meant to make people share in the misery of PvP, likely in the hopes it will drum up new anti vengeance support by making PvE players put themselves in their shoes.

The issue with the argument is that it completely ignores that PvE already has a normal trial. So, people who just want to learn the mechs of a trial without having to worry about a build may already do so.

It also completely ignores that PvP didn't have an equivalent experience where having vet gear was not necessary. Ravenwatch and Icereach were dominated by builds too. And the only time that at least proc sets weren't part of that equation, established PvPers pushed back until that change was reverted. Which was ultimately a good thing because that change did not change the importance of builds, it just made it even more confusing on what even worked.

Players engaging in normal trials do not need to do any research to join and successfully clear ncr. PvP, unlike PvE, puts players in direct competition with each other. So it matters what all players are wearing unlike PvE normal trials. So this suggestion is a false equivalence.

ETA 2

FYI, false equivalence is simply the name of concept. It's not the same as lying. Using an equivalent experience to draw a comparison is a valid rhetorical strategy but it can run into trouble if the comparison being made is only superficially similar.

It's about the PvE performance issues. ESO performance issues in trials are very well documented in this forum. People experiencing desync and being kicked from server and groups not being able to finish their trial runs isn't a new thing to ESO.

This isn't about hating something. This is about addressing serious performance issues in a mode which is relevant to 99% of the players.

Wuuffyy · April 29

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

is this self deprecation?

It's "misery loves company."

ETA
The suggestion is coming from folks who are very vocal of their hatred of vengeance and their anger that vengeance removed GH during the testing phases. So, this is a well then PvE should have to have it too! post. Meant to make people share in the misery of PvP, likely in the hopes it will drum up new anti vengeance support by making PvE players put themselves in their shoes.

The issue with the argument is that it completely ignores that PvE already has a normal trial. So, people who just want to learn the mechs of a trial without having to worry about a build may already do so.

It also completely ignores that PvP didn't have an equivalent experience where having vet gear was not necessary. Ravenwatch and Icereach were dominated by builds too. And the only time that at least proc sets weren't part of that equation, established PvPers pushed back until that change was reverted. Which was ultimately a good thing because that change did not change the importance of builds, it just made it even more confusing on what even worked.

Players engaging in normal trials do not need to do any research to join and successfully clear ncr. PvP, unlike PvE, puts players in direct competition with each other. So it matters what all players are wearing unlike PvE normal trials. So this suggestion is a false equivalence.

ETA 2

FYI, false equivalence is simply the name of concept. It's not the same as lying. Using an equivalent experience to draw a comparison is a valid rhetorical strategy but it can run into trouble if the comparison being made is only superficially similar.

Normal trial do not allow me to get the cool titles and cosmetics I get from vet and vet hard modes. I’d still be doing the content, just with easier to access templates. Also, I think the veteran version of trials are coolerI think so another plus one there. I’m not voicing my hatred, this will legitimately help me get things off my bucket list for eso.

Think about it, vengeance trials (end game) would be just like your standard, meta cookie-cutting but made easier. There’s less customization but just doing the content is what really matters.

xR3ACTORx · April 29

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

It wouldn't work.

Heals don't heal enough people (limited to 3 people usually). Damage can't damage fast enough (combined DPS would only be ~60-80k, whereas a single DPS right now is pulling nearly double that), and even though you would have more health, tanks wouldn't have the ability to support the group other than by holding taunt.

Sure it will work. A PvE Vengeance ruleset could be adjusted specifically for pve reasons by the developers.

What you are describing sounds like pve players all get carried by their sets.

twisttop138 · April 29

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

is this self deprecation?

It's "misery loves company."

ETA
The suggestion is coming from folks who are very vocal of their hatred of vengeance and their anger that vengeance removed GH during the testing phases. So, this is a well then PvE should have to have it too! post. Meant to make people share in the misery of PvP, likely in the hopes it will drum up new anti vengeance support by making PvE players put themselves in their shoes.

The issue with the argument is that it completely ignores that PvE already has a normal trial. So, people who just want to learn the mechs of a trial without having to worry about a build may already do so.

It also completely ignores that PvP didn't have an equivalent experience where having vet gear was not necessary. Ravenwatch and Icereach were dominated by builds too. And the only time that at least proc sets weren't part of that equation, established PvPers pushed back until that change was reverted. Which was ultimately a good thing because that change did not change the importance of builds, it just made it even more confusing on what even worked.

Players engaging in normal trials do not need to do any research to join and successfully clear ncr. PvP, unlike PvE, puts players in direct competition with each other. So it matters what all players are wearing unlike PvE normal trials. So this suggestion is a false equivalence.

ETA 2

FYI, false equivalence is simply the name of concept. It's not the same as lying. Using an equivalent experience to draw a comparison is a valid rhetorical strategy but it can run into trouble if the comparison being made is only superficially similar.

Dude, I mean can you blame them? No one in this thread actually thinks something like this will happen. Why try to argue? But their anger is justified.

Wuuffyy · April 29

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

It wouldn't work.

Heals don't heal enough people (limited to 3 people usually). Damage can't damage fast enough (combined DPS would only be ~60-80k, whereas a single DPS right now is pulling nearly double that), and even though you would have more health, tanks wouldn't have the ability to support the group other than by holding taunt.

Sure it will work. A PvE Vengeance ruleset could be adjusted specifically for pve reasons by the developers.

What you are describing sounds like pve players all get carried by their sets.

Yes. They are needing a ‘leg up’ to win. This would help even the odds for sure.

tomofhyrule · April 29

Wuuffyy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

is this self deprecation?

It's "misery loves company."

ETA
The suggestion is coming from folks who are very vocal of their hatred of vengeance and their anger that vengeance removed GH during the testing phases. So, this is a well then PvE should have to have it too! post. Meant to make people share in the misery of PvP, likely in the hopes it will drum up new anti vengeance support by making PvE players put themselves in their shoes.

The issue with the argument is that it completely ignores that PvE already has a normal trial. So, people who just want to learn the mechs of a trial without having to worry about a build may already do so.

It also completely ignores that PvP didn't have an equivalent experience where having vet gear was not necessary. Ravenwatch and Icereach were dominated by builds too. And the only time that at least proc sets weren't part of that equation, established PvPers pushed back until that change was reverted. Which was ultimately a good thing because that change did not change the importance of builds, it just made it even more confusing on what even worked.

Players engaging in normal trials do not need to do any research to join and successfully clear ncr. PvP, unlike PvE, puts players in direct competition with each other. So it matters what all players are wearing unlike PvE normal trials. So this suggestion is a false equivalence.

ETA 2

FYI, false equivalence is simply the name of concept. It's not the same as lying. Using an equivalent experience to draw a comparison is a valid rhetorical strategy but it can run into trouble if the comparison being made is only superficially similar.

Normal trial do not allow me to get the cool titles and cosmetics I get from vet and vet hard modes. I’d still be doing the content, just with easier to access templates. Also, I think the veteran version of trials are coolerI think so another plus one there. I’m not voicing my hatred, this will legitimately help me get things off my bucket list for eso.

Think about it, vengeance trials (end game) would be just like your standard, meta cookie-cutting but made easier. There’s less customization but just doing the content is what really matters.

I mean, if we want to say that we should have all PvE cosmetics available via Vengeance, then let’s also make all PvP cosmetics available via Vengeance as well! Why should I have to get on the BG leaderboards just to get the Galeskirmish Gladiator pages? Why should I have to grind to Veterancy 100 to get that cool Shield Bash skill style? Just give them to me!

See how that sounds? Just as dumb.

Everyone with a brain knows this is a “PvPers mad about mandated Vengeance” thread, and instead of taking it out on the devs or the casuals who want it, they’re specifically taking it out on the population who supports them (because a lot of endgame PvE also play PvP, and also hate Vengeance). Honestly it seems like a questionable strategy to drive off the people on your side to weaken your side, but you do you.

And for those arguing “oh, but muh server stability in PvE!” Stop. You know you’re lying. We know you’re lying.
Are there connection issues? Yes, most definitely. But you can’t reasonably argue that you want Vengeance for stability in one place while complaining that it does nothing in the other. You know as well as we do that you couldn’t care less about Vengeance-as-a-way-to-fix-stability since you are actively arguing against it in PvP.

Wuuffyy · April 29

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I mean, if we want to say that we should have all PvE cosmeticsavailable via Vengeance, then let’s also make all PvP cosmetics available via Vengeance as well! Why should I have to get on the BG leaderboards just to get the Galeskirmish Gladiator pages? Why should I have to grind to Veterancy 100 to get that cool Shield Bash skill style? Just give them to me!

I play PvP a lot and I think I typically just delete these gladiator pages and such b/c they aren’t my style 😅. If this idea would come alongside vengeance trials I’d be more than happy to share some of my virtual style with others. Assuming they have to enter Vengeance PvP to earn them like me in PvE, at a much faster rate.

ZOS, I think with vengeance PvP being such a hit- this idea would clearly bring in players on the PvE side that don’t have enough time to grind for all the gear they need for endgame and don’t mind downsizing build customization to achieve their titles and cosmetics!

spartaxoxo · April 29

twisttop138 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

is this self deprecation?

It's "misery loves company."

ETA
The suggestion is coming from folks who are very vocal of their hatred of vengeance and their anger that vengeance removed GH during the testing phases. So, this is a well then PvE should have to have it too! post. Meant to make people share in the misery of PvP, likely in the hopes it will drum up new anti vengeance support by making PvE players put themselves in their shoes.

The issue with the argument is that it completely ignores that PvE already has a normal trial. So, people who just want to learn the mechs of a trial without having to worry about a build may already do so.

It also completely ignores that PvP didn't have an equivalent experience where having vet gear was not necessary. Ravenwatch and Icereach were dominated by builds too. And the only time that at least proc sets weren't part of that equation, established PvPers pushed back until that change was reverted. Which was ultimately a good thing because that change did not change the importance of builds, it just made it even more confusing on what even worked.

Players engaging in normal trials do not need to do any research to join and successfully clear ncr. PvP, unlike PvE, puts players in direct competition with each other. So it matters what all players are wearing unlike PvE normal trials. So this suggestion is a false equivalence.

ETA 2

FYI, false equivalence is simply the name of concept. It's not the same as lying. Using an equivalent experience to draw a comparison is a valid rhetorical strategy but it can run into trouble if the comparison being made is only superficially similar.

Dude, I mean can you blame them? No one in this thread actually thinks something like this will happen. Why try to argue? But their anger is justified.

I generally dislike suggestions that are meant to limit other players because of "us vs them," rather than serving a purpose. I'm not saying it can never be valid to limit player stuff because there's times it is needed but you'll generally find me taking the pro-player freedom stances on here.

The anger at the way the testing was handled is justified but I don't think turning it against PvE players or people enjoy Vengeance is. Players aren't the ones that removed GH from being able to be played. ZOS is. I'm very open to supporting suggestions meant to build GH up rather than tear down people who like Veng.

The criticism in here about being able to earn all the same cosmetics is a valid one, for example. There should be cosmetics exclusive to regular Cyro. That's a limit that is sensible and fair.

BagOfBadgers · April 29

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

Vengeance PvE would also show who really has skills and who is just carried by sets

"Sorc & NB players have entered the chat"

xR3ACTORx · April 30

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[

And for those arguing “oh, but muh server stability in PvE!” Stop. You know you’re lying. We know you’re lying.
Are there connection issues? Yes, most definitely.

Saying players are lying about this issues while there is a 3.9k comment thread exactly about the issues that player experience is the only lie here.

BardokRedSnow · April 30

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

is this self deprecation?

It's "misery loves company."

ETA
The suggestion is coming from folks who are very vocal of their hatred of vengeance and their anger that vengeance removed GH during the testing phases. So, this is a well then PvE should have to have it too! post. Meant to make people share in the misery of PvP, likely in the hopes it will drum up new anti vengeance support by making PvE players put themselves in their shoes.

The issue with the argument is that it completely ignores that PvE already has a normal trial. So, people who just want to learn the mechs of a trial without having to worry about a build may already do so.

It also completely ignores that PvP didn't have an equivalent experience where having vet gear was not necessary. Ravenwatch and Icereach were dominated by builds too. And the only time that at least proc sets weren't part of that equation, established PvPers pushed back until that change was reverted. Which was ultimately a good thing because that change did not change the importance of builds, it just made it even more confusing on what even worked.

Players engaging in normal trials do not need to do any research to join and successfully clear ncr. PvP, unlike PvE, puts players in direct competition with each other. So it matters what all players are wearing unlike PvE normal trials. So this suggestion is a false equivalence.

ETA 2

FYI, false equivalence is simply the name of concept. It's not the same as lying. Using an equivalent experience to draw a comparison is a valid rhetorical strategy but it can run into trouble if the comparison being made is only superficially similar.

Normal trial do not allow me to get the cool titles and cosmetics I get from vet and vet hard modes. I’d still be doing the content, just with easier to access templates. Also, I think the veteran version of trials are coolerI think so another plus one there. I’m not voicing my hatred, this will legitimately help me get things off my bucket list for eso.

Think about it, vengeance trials (end game) would be just like your standard, meta cookie-cutting but made easier. There’s less customization but just doing the content is what really matters.

I mean, if we want to say that we should have all PvE cosmetics available via Vengeance, then let’s also make all PvP cosmetics available via Vengeance as well! Why should I have to get on the BG leaderboards just to get the Galeskirmish Gladiator pages? Why should I have to grind to Veterancy 100 to get that cool Shield Bash skill style? Just give them to me!

See how that sounds? Just as dumb.

You say this yet I wouldn't be surprised if they did it. Wouldn't be surprised if the vengeance crowd on this forum supported it either.

As for the rest Im not lying I think its a great idea, the night market was so laggy sometimes during busy hours and i was surprised to see its this way even in the trials?

Trials shouldn't have to deal with performance issues caused by so many different skills going off and procs, its already so difficult to form groups for them. For Trial and Dungeon enjoyers, Bring Us Vengeance.

ShutUpitsRed · April 30

I agree completely.
Not even completely for builds and such, but it's become near impossible to tell what's going on with everybody's super flashy proc sets and skills going off all at once. Targeting becomes spray and pray without using addons and that's not a great feeling. It affects performance and most of the time when I'm dying in higher end PvE content it's because I couldn't see the mechanics over everyone's neon light show skills/sets. That, and disconnects.

And honestly? I'm sick of getting *** on by elitist PvE mains for using one bar builds. Gods forbid my 900th City of Ash II run go twenty seconds slower than it could have if I'd only spent hours of my life farming a two bar copy paste beam build. I use one bar due to accessibility issues and PvE build templates would solve the issue of build discrimination outright.

ShutUpitsRed · April 30

JavaRen wrote: »

Okay, people don't like Vengeance and it makes them feel angry or neglected or whatever negative thing, granted.

I get lost on how this translates to "someone else should have their fun decreased." Can anyone explain an honest, rational reason for this request, or is it just upset people lashing out?

What about having a Vengeance mode for PvE decreases someone else's fun? OP didn't say anything about replacing what's already there, only adding a more accessible mode for more casual PvE players.

BagOfBadgers · April 30

Put everone in:

Shattered Fate
(5 items) Adds 7918 Offensive Penetration
(10 items) Adds 687 Weapon and Spell Damage
(12 items) Adds 1528 Critical Chance

and have at it in PvE vengance "eazy HM mode boyz", as someone (sort'a said) who thinks Vengance PvE would be easy.

To everyone who is asking, again and again for this, I admire how you never let evidence interfere with your opinions.

BardokRedSnow · April 30

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

I agree completely.
Not even completely for builds and such, but it's become near impossible to tell what's going on with everybody's super flashy proc sets and skills going off all at once. Targeting becomes spray and pray without using addons and that's not a great feeling. It affects performance and most of the time when I'm dying in higher end PvE content it's because I couldn't see the mechanics over everyone's neon light show skills/sets. That, and disconnects.

And honestly? I'm sick of getting *** on by elitist PvE mains for using one bar builds. Gods forbid my 900th City of Ash II run go twenty seconds slower than it could have if I'd only spent hours of my life farming a two bar copy paste beam build. I use one bar due to accessibility issues and PvE build templates would solve the issue of build discrimination outright.

this is a great point, there's been people complaining for years about how flashy eso has become. And while I enjoy flash, any time I try to show the game off or something cool I did to my non eso buddies in a video or stream on discord, they say they have no idea what they're looking at or what's even going on lol.

So a vengeance mode for pve would be a great idea for this also. Would be a great step for improving the accessibility issues in eso even further, which zos has been working a lot to do.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · April 30

Heres the thing, Remove Subclassing! Anyone who thinks Vengeance is a good idea for PvE needs to start there. That is how it was! Before Subclassing the average dps WAS 60 to 80k. And all of the same content you're describing was cleared that way, with the original characters and far less dps! The damage in PvP was no where near as out of control as it is now either. Subclassing is the real disaster. It needs to go.

BardokRedSnow · April 30

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Heres the thing, Remove Subclassing! Anyone who thinks Vengeance is a good idea for PvE needs to start there. That is how it was! Before Subclassing the average dps WAS 60 to 80k. And all of the same content you're describing was cleared that way, with the original characters and far less dps! The damage in PvP was no where near as out of control as it is now either. Subclassing is the real disaster. It needs to go.

I believe that vengeance as it is currently only allows for pure classing right? That would again solve yet another issue many fans have with the game. And if they do allow subclassing, that should be taken away also as it over-complicates things for the coding and could lead to more issues for performance which is the opposite of what we want to address here.

The devs said they were concerned with power creep, and I gotta say after the DK refresh, IA went from being challenging to a pure breeze. Vengeance for IA, dungeons and trials would be a great way to add more challenge to the game, look at how popular Elden Ring is. That's what they should aim for in pve via Vengeance.

L_Nici · April 30

JavaRen wrote: »

Okay, people don't like Vengeance and it makes them feel angry or neglected or whatever negative thing, granted.

I get lost on how this translates to "someone else should have their fun decreased." Can anyone explain an honest, rational reason for this request, or is it just upset people lashing out?

You do realize that Vengeacne is doing exactly that to us PvP people? Decrease OUR fun, but as it doesn''t effect PvE people its fine, right?

tom6143346 · April 30

Wouldn’t it be better than to call for a removal of vengeance from PvP so you can have more fun again? Instead you choose to call for decrease the fun of pve players , to put it mildly that’s not very logical. But you are the perfect example why Pve players just avoid PvP completely. Personally I don’t care, they can remove vengeance or put it in where ever they want , and they will, they always do and life goes on

Poss · April 30

tom6143346 wrote: »

Wouldn’t it be better than to call for a removal of vengeance from PvP so you can have more fun again?

Hi, welcome to the forums! You must be new around here

Wuuffyy · April 30

tom6143346 wrote: »

Wouldn’t it be better than to call for a removal of vengeance from PvP so you can have more fun again? Instead you choose to call for decrease the fun of pve players , to put it mildly that’s not very logical. But you are the perfect example why Pve players just avoid PvP completely. Personally I don’t care, they can remove vengeance or put it in where ever they want , and they will, they always do and life goes on

You misunderstand, we like vengeance and would like some template, end-game PvE to go with our template PvP.

robertlabrie · May 1

They should do it for BGs. I find the idea of identically sized group of identical characters locked in a total stalemate for 7 minutes to be absolutely riveting.

Wuuffyy · May 1

robertlabrie wrote: »

They should do it for BGs. I find the idea of identically sized group of identical characters locked in a total stalemate for 7 minutes to be absolutely riveting.

They should do it for overland. Instead of having to worry about equipping gear on your quest to defeat Molag Bal, you can have it conveniently and automatically equipped. Now that, is prime gaming right ‘thare.

robertlabrie · May 1

Wuuffyy wrote: »

robertlabrie wrote: »

They should do it for BGs. I find the idea of identically sized group of identical characters locked in a total stalemate for 7 minutes to be absolutely riveting.

They should do it for overland. Instead of having to worry about equipping gear on your quest to defeat Molag Bal, you can have it conveniently and automatically equipped. Now that, is prime gaming right ‘thare.

Now you're thinking! They could rework the maps to be tunnels that punish you for deviating from the prescribed path, add cutscenes where you watch NPCs do the interesting things, eliminate build identity completely and just have a boiler plate build for each class. It'd be like "Scrolls of Duty" or "Call of Scrolls" or something. That's actually a solid design principle.