Please re-balance Serpent's Disdain next

Burtan · April 28

Now that we have seen one of the most annoying PvP sets (Relequen) get a much needed change, i would like to draw attention to another set currently plaguing PvP, Serpent's Disdain.

This item set allows permanent uptime on as many status effects as you can apply which results in an overwhelming amount of overall value through damage over time and debuffs, negates purge mechanics built into multiple item sets and classes and has a number of interactions with items and passives that would otherwise not be a problem, such as;

Incoming warden passives which revolve around status effects, one of which gives 1665 weapon and spell damage based on the number of status effects on your target, the other gives up to 15% mitigation based on the same condition.
The Maarselok monster set which applies a massive amount of proc damage based on negative effects on the enemy.
Incoming mythic (Shattered paths signet) that increases the damage of status effects and applies random status effects
Force of Nature CP - Increases your Offensive Penetration by 660 for every status effect your target has. (EDIT) - felt it was important to add this.

These are a few examples.

I would ask that a "Reduced duration while battle spirit is active" or similar effect is added to this set in order to address the major negative impacts of this set in PvP content without affecting the builds and playstyles of PvE players.

Please leave your thoughts and experiences.

Lord_Hev · April 28

My thoughts are these "problematic" sets for 1v1 egos and getting xv1'd by are small fry compared to rush of agony dictating the entire pvp ecosystem and all the 3rd order of effects from its vast use-cases.

Burtan · April 28

Lord_Hev wrote: »

My thoughts are these "problematic" sets for 1v1 egos and getting xv1'd by are small fry compared to rush of agony dictating the entire pvp ecosystem and all the 3rd order of effects from its vast use-cases.

There are a number of item sets and other things causing issues in PvP, i agree.

Rush of agony has a number of interactions that would require (and should have) its own discussion in my opinion.

I would encourage you to go do this.

ItsNotLiving · April 29

By this logic they should nuke any set that any ever uses so we all use Whitestrake’s Retribution and Torug’s Pact. This set is good on one class next patch and that class is just going to be food to feed DK and Sorc. Just don’t think this set is as strong as you think is its situational at best.

Burtan · April 29

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

By this logic they should nuke any set that any ever uses so we all use Whitestrake’s Retribution and Torug’s Pact. This set is good on one class next patch and that class is just going to be food to feed DK and Sorc. Just don’t think this set is as strong as you think is its situational at best.

I do not think we should just nerf any set that ever appears to be good in any way and i do not believe anyone is really asking for such a thing. I do not want to limit players to using unrewarding and boring item sets, i am in fact asking for the contrary.

There are item sets that sit atop the pile and make the vast choices this game provides seem far less appealing and in some cases simply an outright negative for no good reason. This would be the primary concern, item sets that do too much are actually limiting the experience by being left unchecked.

As for the power this item set provides, i would reassert the fact that this item set can provide more damage over time than item sets that are focused entirely on damage over time. It also allows for permanent uptime on many debuffs, outperforming item sets focused entirely on providing debuffs.

If this item set provides the power of multiple sets combined into one and hard-counters entire mechanics such as purge/cleanse then surely it cannot be balanced.

ItsNotLiving · April 29

Also just to add that 2 of your points are pure class specific so if you have an issue with a pure warden and it’s masteries that’s a separate issue.
Maarselok monster helm requires you to lose a mythic to make sure Serpents disdain is double barred so it isn’t a very common interaction and when it is losing a mythic is a very large sacrifice to make.
Force of nature grants you at MAX 3,960 penetration (which requires all 6 damage types) which is just a hair more than double maces or wearing 3 light armor pieces and requires you to drop a better blue CP slot.
Incoming mythic is already nerfed through battlespirit.

Burtan · April 29

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Also just to add that 2 of your points are pure class specific so if you have an issue with a pure warden and it’s masteries that’s a separate issue.
Maarselok monster helm requires you to lose a mythic to make sure Serpents disdain is double barred so it isn’t a very common interaction and when it is losing a mythic is a very large sacrifice to make.
Force of nature grants you at MAX 3,960 penetration (which requires all 6 damage types) which is just a hair more than double maces or wearing 3 light armor pieces and requires you to drop a better blue CP slot.
Incoming mythic is already nerfed through battlespirit.

The incoming mythic still provides 85% dmg increase on status effects. Builds with serpent's disdain are already too strong before this becomes a factor.

Maarselok, Force of nature and other things themselves are not an issue as i said, serpent's disdain ties things like this together into incredibly low skill, high power "cheese" specs.

Serpent's Disdain is currently a top duel set, 1vX set and Xv1 set on PC EU.

Again, it does more than multiple sets put together right now.

ItsNotLiving · April 29

Burtan wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Also just to add that 2 of your points are pure class specific so if you have an issue with a pure warden and it’s masteries that’s a separate issue.
Maarselok monster helm requires you to lose a mythic to make sure Serpents disdain is double barred so it isn’t a very common interaction and when it is losing a mythic is a very large sacrifice to make.
Force of nature grants you at MAX 3,960 penetration (which requires all 6 damage types) which is just a hair more than double maces or wearing 3 light armor pieces and requires you to drop a better blue CP slot.
Incoming mythic is already nerfed through battlespirit.

The incoming mythic still provides 85% dmg increase on status effects. Builds with serpent's disdain are already too strong before this becomes a factor.

Maarselok, Force of nature and other things themselves are not an issue as i said, serpent's disdain ties things like this together into incredibly low skill, high power "cheese" specs.

Serpent's Disdain is currently both a top duel set, 1vX set and Xv1 set on PC EU.

Again, it does more than multiple sets put together right now.

I have put a lot of hours on u49 in PvP and have never seen a single person use this set outside of dueling in Wayrest. Comparing this to actual top meta sets is insane. Just compare this to rallying cry, wretched, rush of agony, farstrider, twice fang, shattered fate, gorethief, essence thief, or even dark convergence. (All of these can be one barred and run with a monster helm another 5 piece a mythic and a heavy trainee chest, something you cannot do when wearing serpents.) This set is nowhere near as good as you think it is.

Burtan · April 29

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Also just to add that 2 of your points are pure class specific so if you have an issue with a pure warden and it’s masteries that’s a separate issue.
Maarselok monster helm requires you to lose a mythic to make sure Serpents disdain is double barred so it isn’t a very common interaction and when it is losing a mythic is a very large sacrifice to make.
Force of nature grants you at MAX 3,960 penetration (which requires all 6 damage types) which is just a hair more than double maces or wearing 3 light armor pieces and requires you to drop a better blue CP slot.
Incoming mythic is already nerfed through battlespirit.

The incoming mythic still provides 85% dmg increase on status effects. Builds with serpent's disdain are already too strong before this becomes a factor.

Maarselok, Force of nature and other things themselves are not an issue as i said, serpent's disdain ties things like this together into incredibly low skill, high power "cheese" specs.

Serpent's Disdain is currently both a top duel set, 1vX set and Xv1 set on PC EU.

Again, it does more than multiple sets put together right now.

I have put a lot of hours on u49 in PvP and have never seen a single person use this set outside of dueling in Wayrest. Comparing this to actual top meta sets is insane. Just compare this to rallying cry, wretched, rush of agony, farstrider, twice fang, shattered fate, gorethief, essence thief, or even dark convergence. (All of these can be one barred and run with a monster helm another 5 piece a mythic and a heavy trainee chest, something you cannot do when wearing serpents.) This set is nowhere near as good as you think it is.

We clearly have different experiences, which is fine.

I have extensive PvP experience on EU and whereas this set is largely consigned to the more "sweaty" variety of players, if you are engaging in competitive gameplay such as open world solo/duo or are engaging in highly motivated Xv1, builds with this set are immensely oppressive and in my opinion present a far greater threat than somebody with some stat lines. This set is used by duel tourney winners and smallscale players for a reason.

Myself and my group members will often target someone hard if we notice them using sets such as this, jeralls or similar, because builds enabled by these item sets are highly oppressive.

You may not see this set if you are engaging in standard AvA gameplay.

Sets such as rallying cry present their own issues as does the out of control critical damage meta, but that requires its own discussion.

React · April 29

Agree this set is problematic. It really is the best "proc" set in the game currently when you consider what it is actually providing you. You've summed it up well here in your comments so I don't have a ton to add in regards to that.

Think it does shine a light on how strong status are in general as well. It always blows my mind when I come out of a 1vX situation, and half of the top 10 damage numbers on my damage received are all status effects. I'd much prefer they shifted away from status dealing damage itself, and instead just had them apply debuffs, perhaps with an exception for burning/poisoned as those have always been the "Damage" status effects.

Arcanasx · April 29

I have a feeling that the disdain people will have for this set will set record highs in the coming days.

Vaqual · April 29

Ele Sus with Serpents Disdain and Shattered Paths is a freakishly overloaded free cast. Dual Wield back bar double Glyphs + Blade Cloak + front bar charged is also very silly with Disdain. Besides these offenders many other sources are fairly reasonable when it comes to their interaction with Serpents Disdain.

There are several points to consider when it comes to Serpents Disdains' evaluation.

1. Serpents Disdain does not generate value when the proc rate of statuses is too low (no application) or too high (sufficient coverage).
2. You can easily maintain maximum pressure and you get good damage per activation with it, but it can raise only the average DPS, not the potential max spike. "Lucking out" with sufficient proc chances + another offensive set will often break even or outperform (highly dependent on setup).
3. It can heavily pressure purge effectiveness, as it is easy to maintain a high number of negative effects to cover important debuffs/DoTs. This also gives it its increased Maarselok potency, but also increased burst mitigation by propping up Pain's Refuge. I am not a huge fan of either of those things, so make of it what you will.

It is without a dout a good set, that can be used effectively with very limited counterplay besides sufficient HPS. But the bulk of the disproportionate value doesn't really come from incidental status procs that follow the general ruleset, and not even from the ones with moderately enhanced chance. It also isn't really too beneficial when paired with guaranteed-status-spammables. The most dramatic gain in value comes from the sources I mentioned initially, which provide multiple different status procs with high reliability and suboptimal frequency on their own. There the added coverage accounts for many ticks and very good debuff uptime.

Shattered Paths is definitely a force multiplier for this set. But most elements I mentioned in this text are not too problematic in isolation. I would really hope that this topic will be handled with the necessary care.

Edit: Corrected name of the CP in 3.

Dracane · April 29

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Also just to add that 2 of your points are pure class specific so if you have an issue with a pure warden and it’s masteries that’s a separate issue.
Maarselok monster helm requires you to lose a mythic to make sure Serpents disdain is double barred so it isn’t a very common interaction and when it is losing a mythic is a very large sacrifice to make.
Force of nature grants you at MAX 3,960 penetration (which requires all 6 damage types) which is just a hair more than double maces or wearing 3 light armor pieces and requires you to drop a better blue CP slot.
Incoming mythic is already nerfed through battlespirit.

The incoming mythic still provides 85% dmg increase on status effects. Builds with serpent's disdain are already too strong before this becomes a factor.

Maarselok, Force of nature and other things themselves are not an issue as i said, serpent's disdain ties things like this together into incredibly low skill, high power "cheese" specs.

Serpent's Disdain is currently both a top duel set, 1vX set and Xv1 set on PC EU.

Again, it does more than multiple sets put together right now.

I have put a lot of hours on u49 in PvP and have never seen a single person use this set outside of dueling in Wayrest. Comparing this to actual top meta sets is insane. Just compare this to rallying cry, wretched, rush of agony, farstrider, twice fang, shattered fate, gorethief, essence thief, or even dark convergence. (All of these can be one barred and run with a monster helm another 5 piece a mythic and a heavy trainee chest, something you cannot do when wearing serpents.) This set is nowhere near as good as you think it is.

U49 was too long ago. Such things take time to settle and make the rounds, and by now, Serpent's Disdain has done so.
It is not seldom seen and turns otherwise short-lived dots like Poisoned and Burning (who deal much more damage per second than any ability dot) into permanent ones. So it's almost as if you had 2 additional skill slots, placed in them are Entropy and Searing Strikes, and their damage is doubled as well.

So OP is not entirely wrong for saying that this set offers the benefits of many, also because it can be conveniently worn on the backbar. And I don't even think nerfing the duration would achieve anything to change it. 16 seconds is beyond comprehension, and even 8 additional seconds would maintain the same potency, because that gives you so much time to simply reproc everything naturally.

I don't know what you could even do with this set without making it irrelevant outright.

Burtan · April 29

Vaqual wrote: »

Ele Sus with Serpents Disdain and Shattered Paths is a freakishly overloaded free cast. Dual Wield back bar double Glyphs + Blade Cloak + front bar charged is also very silly with Disdain. Besides these offenders many other sources are fairly reasonable when it comes to their interaction with Serpents disdain.

There are several points to consider when it comes to Serpents Disdains' evaluation.

1. Serpents Disdain does not generate value when the proc rate of statuses is too low (no application) or too high (sufficient coverage).
2. You can easily maintain maximum pressure and you get good damage per activation with it, but it can raise only the average DPS, not the potential max spike. "Lucking out" with sufficient proc chances + another offensive set will often break even or outperform (highly dependent on setup).
3. It can heavily pressure purge effectiveness, as it is easy to maintain a high number of negative effects to cover important debuffs/DoTs. This also gives it its increased Maarselok potency, but also increased burst mitigation by propping up Sustained by Suffering. I am not a huge fan of either of those things, so make of it what you will.

It is without a dout a good set, that can be used effectively with very limited counterplay besides sufficient HPS. But the bulk of the disproportionate value doesn't really come from incidental status procs that follow the general ruleset, and not even from the ones with moderately enhanced chance. It also isn't really too beneficial when paired with guaranteed-status-spammables. The most dramatic gain in value comes from the sources I mentioned initially, which provide multiple different status procs with high reliability and suboptimal frequency on their own. There the added coverage accounts for many ticks and very good debuff uptime.

Shattered Paths is definitely a force multiplier for this set. But most elements I mentioned in this text are not too problematic in isolation. I would really hope that this topic will be handled with the necessary care.

Well put, i 100% agree that Ele Sus in particular is enabling a lot of the power of this set and i have long wanted Ele Sus to be changed, regardless of where sets like Serpent's Disdain stand, However it is still possible to maintain uptime on almost all status effects without the use of Ele Sus and i have personally done so.

I believe you are correct that most of these things in isolation do not create problems. For example, Burning, poisoned and hemorrhaging do not present major issues until someone has permanent uptime on all three along with every other status effect combined and then damage over time from something like Master DW on top.

Maarselok is not really causing any issues until you pair it with something like this set and reliably hit its maximum damage with little effort.

Shattered Paths Signet could have some interesting interactions and enable new ways of building characters should Serpent's Disdain not be waiting at the door like a rabid dog panting for water.

Serpent is what pushes these things over the top and its about time it got the hammer.

Burtan · April 29

Dracane wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Also just to add that 2 of your points are pure class specific so if you have an issue with a pure warden and it’s masteries that’s a separate issue.
Maarselok monster helm requires you to lose a mythic to make sure Serpents disdain is double barred so it isn’t a very common interaction and when it is losing a mythic is a very large sacrifice to make.
Force of nature grants you at MAX 3,960 penetration (which requires all 6 damage types) which is just a hair more than double maces or wearing 3 light armor pieces and requires you to drop a better blue CP slot.
Incoming mythic is already nerfed through battlespirit.

The incoming mythic still provides 85% dmg increase on status effects. Builds with serpent's disdain are already too strong before this becomes a factor.

Maarselok, Force of nature and other things themselves are not an issue as i said, serpent's disdain ties things like this together into incredibly low skill, high power "cheese" specs.

Serpent's Disdain is currently both a top duel set, 1vX set and Xv1 set on PC EU.

Again, it does more than multiple sets put together right now.

I have put a lot of hours on u49 in PvP and have never seen a single person use this set outside of dueling in Wayrest. Comparing this to actual top meta sets is insane. Just compare this to rallying cry, wretched, rush of agony, farstrider, twice fang, shattered fate, gorethief, essence thief, or even dark convergence. (All of these can be one barred and run with a monster helm another 5 piece a mythic and a heavy trainee chest, something you cannot do when wearing serpents.) This set is nowhere near as good as you think it is.

U49 was too long ago. Such things take time to settle and make the rounds, and by now, Serpent's Disdain has done so.
It is not seldom seen and turns otherwise short-lived dots like Poisoned and Burning (who deal much more damage per second than any ability dot) into permanent ones. So it's almost as if you had 2 additional skill slots, placed in them are Entropy and Searing Strikes, and their damage is doubled as well.

So OP is not entirely wrong for saying that this set offers the benefits of many, also because it can be conveniently worn on the backbar. And I don't even think nerfing the duration would achieve anything to change it. 16 seconds is beyond comprehension, and even 8 additional seconds would maintain the same potency, because that gives you so much time to simply reproc everything naturally.

I don't know what you could even do with this set without making it irrelevant outright.

i think you are right about how hard it is to balance this set without making it irrelevant.

Asking for a full rework of the set feels unrealistic, though that would be the better option. Right now i would settle for reducing the time increase to such a small amount, perhaps a few seconds, that it becomes more of a niche option for those really looking to spec into status effects instead of something that is so strong you build other things around it.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 29

React wrote: »

Agree this set is problematic. It really is the best "proc" set in the game currently when you consider what it is actually providing you. You've summed it up well here in your comments so I don't have a ton to add in regards to that.

Think it does shine a light on how strong status are in general as well. It always blows my mind when I come out of a 1vX situation, and half of the top 10 damage numbers on my damage received are all status effects. I'd much prefer they shifted away from status dealing damage itself, and instead just had them apply debuffs, perhaps with an exception for burning/poisoned as those have always been the "Damage" status effects.

I disagree that the set is problematic. You said it yourself, status effects are overtuned. I think Serpent's is a fun and unique design for the set, and nerfs/reworks should be pointed at status effects themselves.

Ele Sus is also somehow still an absurd ability for 0 cost. If you couldn't get 3 status effects just for throwing on an already meta weapon on your backbar, I don't think Serpent's would be nearly as strong as it is now since you'd have to source those status effects elsewhere.

React · April 29

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

React wrote: »

Agree this set is problematic. It really is the best "proc" set in the game currently when you consider what it is actually providing you. You've summed it up well here in your comments so I don't have a ton to add in regards to that.

Think it does shine a light on how strong status are in general as well. It always blows my mind when I come out of a 1vX situation, and half of the top 10 damage numbers on my damage received are all status effects. I'd much prefer they shifted away from status dealing damage itself, and instead just had them apply debuffs, perhaps with an exception for burning/poisoned as those have always been the "Damage" status effects.

I disagree that the set is problematic. You said it yourself, status effects are overtuned. I think Serpent's is a fun and unique design for the set, and nerfs/reworks should be pointed at status effects themselves.

Ele Sus is also somehow still an absurd ability for 0 cost. If you couldn't get 3 status effects just for throwing on an already meta weapon on your backbar, I don't think Serpent's would be nearly as strong as it is now since you'd have to source those status effects elsewhere.

Sure, I can agree it would be better if the status effects themselves got reworked. That is also probably too unrealistic an ask for the studio to consider.

Also totally agree it is insane Ele sus hasn't been changed in all this time. That skill is so far above and beyond the best source of breach in the game, and it isn't even close.

But without those things getting adjustments, serpents IS probably the best "proc" set in the game. OP put it well - it debuffs better than any debuff set, and it does more DOT damage than any dot set.

I won't claim to know what they should do to it myself. I'm not sure just reducing the timer is going to be worthwhile, as it's either reduced so much that it is worthless, or not enough to prevent the status from having their 100% uptime still. I still think it is problematic though, and it is pretty clear how strong it is when you see how frequently it is represented in the "competitive" parts of the game.

Dracane · April 29

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

React wrote: »

Agree this set is problematic. It really is the best "proc" set in the game currently when you consider what it is actually providing you. You've summed it up well here in your comments so I don't have a ton to add in regards to that.

Think it does shine a light on how strong status are in general as well. It always blows my mind when I come out of a 1vX situation, and half of the top 10 damage numbers on my damage received are all status effects. I'd much prefer they shifted away from status dealing damage itself, and instead just had them apply debuffs, perhaps with an exception for burning/poisoned as those have always been the "Damage" status effects.

I disagree that the set is problematic. You said it yourself, status effects are overtuned. I think Serpent's is a fun and unique design for the set, and nerfs/reworks should be pointed at status effects themselves.

Ele Sus is also somehow still an absurd ability for 0 cost. If you couldn't get 3 status effects just for throwing on an already meta weapon on your backbar, I don't think Serpent's would be nearly as strong as it is now since you'd have to source those status effects elsewhere.

A look needs to be had at all those guaranteed ways to proc status effects that keep mounting. Too much guarantees us those extra damage procs, and more is being added every patch.

What is even the "risk" or use in comitting to something like Charged over Sharpened when any status effect is promised anyway? It is getting out of hand.

Alchimiste1 · April 29

Even as someone who isn’t a fan of the dot/status effect proc metas I have to say that while serpent is a very strong set on the proper build, I do not think that its power warrants a nerf.

Its stronger than most sets. It’s not rele.

Firstmep · April 29

I think this should be part of a larger conversation about just how strong we want pressure/dot builds to be.
Also disdain isn't super popular but it's one of the few pressure oriented sets that are still usable.
Like with maarselok, rather than nerfing it, I'd like more options, not nerf the only viable dot monster set currently available.
That being said I really didn't think we needed a mythic that nearly doubles status damage, even if it comes with a steep tradeoff.

I would personally prefer if regular dot abilities were a bit stronger while status effects were a bit weaker, as skills require bar space and gcd to apply where as status effects can be applied almost passively with glyphs and such.

I am however okay with each class having it's associated status effect it can use better than other classes, and it seems Zos is heading in that direction as well.

Major_Mangle · April 29

Problem isn't disdain itself but rather how overperforming status effects are as a damage source. Been overperforming for way too long as "free pressure" and is in dire need of a rework. As React suggested, status effects aside from maybe burning and poisoned ,should purely be debuffs without any damage attached to them.

Wuuffyy · April 29

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Problem isn't disdain itself but rather how overperforming status effects are as a damage source... As React suggested, status effects aside from maybe burning and poisoned ,should purely be debuffs without any damage attached to them.

How does this make any sense when serpent's disdain increases duration but would only increase the negative effect (so like minor defile) for a non-dot status effect? I'm not even going to say anything b/c I'll get jumped-and-mugged by the crowd, I don't use/like this set, but like are we just trying to nerf everything we don't like now or???

Trian94 · April 29

Clearly an overloaded set. It enables so many debuffs to be active at the same time that it works both as a pressure set with burning and poisoned and hemorrhage and as a burst set if you take into account vulnerability, brittle, sundered etc. (Plus chilled which is a 5% damage reduction to your opponent's outgoing damage). Definitely needs a change

katorga · April 29

Burtan wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

My thoughts are these "problematic" sets for 1v1 egos and getting xv1'd by are small fry compared to rush of agony dictating the entire pvp ecosystem and all the 3rd order of effects from its vast use-cases.

There are a number of item sets and other things causing issues in PvP, i agree.

Rush of agony has a number of interactions that would require (and should have) its own discussion in my opinion.

I would encourage you to go do this.

If there are a "number of sets" causing issues. That technically is balance.

Reality is that it is Rush of Agony and warden charm.

YandereGirlfriend · April 29

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Problem isn't disdain itself but rather how overperforming status effects are as a damage source. Been overperforming for way too long as "free pressure" and is in dire need of a rework. As React suggested, status effects aside from maybe burning and poisoned ,should purely be debuffs without any damage attached to them.

Big agree.

Stapling a Direct Damage proc to all of the status effects has become very problematic.

However, having each class tied to a specific status effect (which in turn derives from their damage type affinity) and providing a unique damage proc for that specific status effect, IMO, would be neat design.

We see this to a degree with Warden and Chilled and DK and Burning. We will likely see more of it as additional reworks come online. Let a class receive bonus damage from their specific element but none of the rest (excepting Burning and Poisoned, I suppose). Otherwise, have a status effect be useful for its status and nothing more.

BahometZ · April 29

Quit calling for set nerfs, zos can only hammer, no scalpel. Nerfing this will just reduce variety.
Ask zos to buff the other thousand useless sets in the game and then players will be forced to confront starker build choices.
If there were 3-5 more competitive 'status effect" related sets then people might not crutch on this set so much.
But also, and this is somewhat hypocritical, the less ZOS touch their game is often the better outcome.

Burtan · April 29

BahometZ wrote: »

Quit calling for set nerfs, zos can only hammer, no scalpel. Nerfing this will just reduce variety.
Ask zos to buff the other thousand useless sets in the game and then players will be forced to confront starker build choices.
If there were 3-5 more competitive 'status effect" related sets then people might not crutch on this set so much.
But also, and this is somewhat hypocritical, the less ZOS touch their game is often the better outcome.

I get your point but i would argue that bringing down sets like these can actually make other choices more relevant, increasing variety, not reducing it.

This sits above other sets in its categories by a large margin, performing the role of multiple sets at once. This is not just a somewhat strong item set, its completely overboard and about to get much, much worse.

Burtan · April 29

katorga wrote: »

Burtan wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

My thoughts are these "problematic" sets for 1v1 egos and getting xv1'd by are small fry compared to rush of agony dictating the entire pvp ecosystem and all the 3rd order of effects from its vast use-cases.

There are a number of item sets and other things causing issues in PvP, i agree.

Rush of agony has a number of interactions that would require (and should have) its own discussion in my opinion.

I would encourage you to go do this.

If there are a "number of sets" causing issues. That technically is balance.

Reality is that it is Rush of Agony and warden charm.

There are a small number of sets outperforming many others, such as Null Arca outperforming every burst damage proc set.

There are sets like Rush of Agony which annoy us all to no end and have absurd interactions with other CC abilities, pulls when it should not and enables some of the least fun strategies to ever grace this game.

Rallying Cry is another example but that is more nuanced.

Having a small number of sets that feel almost mandatory in some cases or just the "only/best" choice in their categories is not my idea of balance, this game has hundreds of item sets, not five.

Jierdanit · April 30

Serpents Disdain is pretty much the only viable 5 piece set for pressure builds in the game right now (plus Relequen for 1v1s which is getting nerfed next patch). If Disdain is nerfed you virtually remove pressure as a playstyle entirely for the majority of classes, since actual DoT skills are so bad that you cant really play a pressure setup without relying on proc sets.

The main problem is that right now the vast majority of sets in the game are horrible and no one will ever consider using them. Instead of nerfing one of the few still good sets in the game ZOS should make other sets good enough to be actually usable.

xylena · April 30

Jierdanit wrote: »

pressure builds in the game right now

Theory as to why players cry so hard over pressure builds:

When they get one shotted, they can blame it on lag, macros, hackers, cheaters, etc. so they can maintain the illusion of their own superiority in the face of an "unfair" system.

When they get pressured down over 8 seconds, they know damn well they have nobody to blame but themselves for losing, so the cognitive dissonance machine goes into overdrive.

As far as Serpent's Disdain, it needs Blood For Blood, it's mid without it. If instead we consider that maybe BFB is what's busted, then maybe we are onto something.

Overamera · April 30

Sad how people refer to procs as pressure playstyle these days. You can still run all stat/dmg sets and still pressure your oppenent with skill/combos etc. It's usually called being better by knowing your rotations/weaving etc.