why make subclassing if passives work only with pure class?

allochthons · April 23

Regarding whether subclassing/multiclassing was highly requested or not: Are those who are saying it was highly requested including all the requests for a Class Change token? Because that was certainly highly requested. (In fact, I still want it,

)

LadyGP · April 23

If I took a guess... just reading between the lines...

I'm say the previous leadership was the one pushing for all these crazy new wild things - including subclassing.

The new leadership team is taking more of a "nah fam we need to go back to the basics here... less is more.. listen to our players, etc etc" approach.

They are trying to unwind subclassing... without fully removing it.

YandereGirlfriend · April 23

I think that there are two broad classes of players:

A. Those who vibe strongly with one or more of the current classes
B. Those who do not

Category A are the strong anti-subclassers and for fairly obvious reasons. They already get what they want from the game based upon the existing classes. They have a power fantasy that is currently both canonized and embodied.

Category B are the subclassers. Those left-out of the current offerings for classes. They vibe with no class 100%. They have other ideas for classes, either rooted in previous TES titles, other fantasy universes or simply their own homebrew concept that they think is neat for whatever perfectly valid reason.

It is good that Masteries are becoming a thing for the Category A folks. But it is a retrograde take to invalidate the preferences of the Category B folks simply because one might enjoy their pure class. It is fine if pure-classing is slightly stronger than subclassing but it should never feel like a self-nerf to make use of subclassing.

Sugram22 · April 23

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I think that there are two broad classes of players:

A. Those who vibe strongly with one or more of the current classes
B. Those who do not

Category A are the strong anti-subclassers and for fairly obvious reasons. They already get what they want from the game based upon the existing classes. They have a power fantasy that is currently both canonized and embodied.

Category B are the subclassers. Those left-out of the current offerings for classes. They vibe with no class 100%. They have other ideas for classes, either rooted in previous TES titles, other fantasy universes or simply their own homebrew concept that they think is neat for whatever perfectly valid reason.

It is good that Masteries are becoming a thing for the Category A folks. But it is a retrograde take to invalidate the preferences of the Category B folks simply because one might enjoy their pure class. It is fine if pure-classing is slightly stronger than subclassing but it should never feel like a self-nerf to make use of subclassing.

that's why i said passives need subclass effects

this can even mean remove the restriction that ppl need to slot class skills to passives to work, or alt actual subclass effect, like effect if u have subclass

i said that so they wouldn't be excluded

personally i am neutral, i just have critique about how its done, and said what i think would have been better (role sys instead of class, i explained it before, how it works)

SandandStars · April 23

They shake things up and introduce overpowered/broken stuff (be it a new set, new mythic, class refresh, etc.) because they've decided this is a better way to attract players and keep people interested in the game. Maybe they're right.

I stopped playing about 3 years ago, because DK was overperforming in PVP to the point where 1/2 the players were DKs running undeath with Master's Dual Wield and Vatesheran staff. I could do okay against most of them, but combat (I'm a PVP'r) just got boring as everyone did the same, overpowered meta thing.

Came back to PVP a couple months ago to see how things had changed, and wouldn't you know it... DK just got a refresh that gives them significant advantages over other classes. This time it's whip-fest.

Yawn.

Sugram22 · April 23

SandandStars wrote: »

They shake things up and introduce overpowered/broken stuff (be it a new set, new mythic, class refresh, etc.) because they've decided this is a better way to attract players and keep people interested in the game. Maybe they're right.

I stopped playing about 3 years ago, because DK was overperforming in PVP to the point where 1/2 the players were DKs running undeath with Master's Dual Wield and Vatesheran staff. I could do okay against most of them, but combat (I'm a PVP'r) just got boring as everyone did the same, overpowered meta thing.

Came back to PVP a little a couple months ago to see how things had changed, and wouldn't you know it... DK just got a refresh that gives them significant advantages over other classes. This time it's whip-fest.

Yawn.

as i heard new DK is top dog in PVE dungeons and trials, and less then before in PVP

kevkj · April 23

I'm having pepperoni pizza tonight, how about everyone else?

heimdall14_9 · April 23

its funny but not funny that the new class passives only works for pure class because the major issue with subclassing was the use of class passives when subclassing not really the skills ... IMHO they should have removed subclassing as a whole since it was done so poorly but instead they are following it up with another poorly made system , zos's big downfall poorly made systems with lil to no backbone , why do you think there is a add-on made for EVERY system with in the game , BECAUSE THEY ARE HALF BAKED AND NEVER DONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TX12001rwb17_ESO · April 24

Because Subclassing is a mistake but it is too late to remove it and Class Masteries will help fix that by making pure builds just as powerful.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · April 24

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Because Subclassing is a mistake but it is too late to remove it and Class Masteries will help fix that by making pure builds just as powerful.

It is not too late, they put it in with one patch, they take it out with one patch. They never should have done it in the first place. Everyone who bought this game did so understanding its a Class based game. Its the first thing you have to do when you start the game, choose a Class. It has always been this way. The longer this unchecked cherry picking goes on, the worse its going to get. It needs to go. How many thousands of people have we already lost over it? And more are still leaving and even more than that are unhappy about it. Remove Subclassing.

SolarRune · April 24

I know many, many people who really enjoy subclassing, and its opened up new ways of playing and new areas of the game for many people.

The people I know that left, left more because of the complexity and need to relevel than anything to do with the idea of subclassing. And people I have seen coming back, are only really coming back because they've had a general break from the game because of real life elements and not because of anything to do with what is changing with the game or how the game was. I've seen more people leave because of the battlepass than because of subclassing. I also know people staying away because of the perceived complexity of the game compared to the game they played before.

People with an issue or ideas will always be more engaged with forums, be that subclassing, vengeance, connectivity, list times in traders, the trading system, that's there's too much to do, that there is too little to do, too much downtime for patching, take more time to do patching, speed running of dungeons, why do I have to wait for others in dungeon etc etc. The vast majority of people are silent on forums (90-9-1 rule for engagement)

With the play as you want approach there is no way subclassing should be removed and its only really an issue for DDs, I wouldn't mind if all the class mastery passives were there to deal with power discrepancy caused there, in my opinion subclassing has put tanks and healers are in a much better space, but it hasn't changed the viability of the pureclasses.

Blood_again · April 24

imPDA wrote: »

Sugram22 wrote: »

they have never gone back on what they did

no-proc Cyrodiil :.(

Vengeance is what you get at the end of this path.
Look how they massacred my boy

BXR_Lonestar · April 24

Its a way to balance and incentivize playing as a pureclass vs. a subclass.

The reality is that Subclassing was a HUGE mistake with the way it was implemented by the previous dev team. By all rights they should just remove it, but there are too many people who like the system, even if it is broken (in fact, I know for a fact many love the subclassing system BECAUSE it is broken). So they can't just straight remove it without upsetting a portion of their remaining player base. So giving Pureclasses advantages that serve as a counterbalance to subclassed builds is the next best thing.

Now if you want to stack specific skill lines to lean into your role as a damage dealer, healer, tank, you can stack subclasses for those roles. Or you can play pure class and take advantage of the pure class passives.

For what its worth, I don't like the solution either. I'd much rather they just straight out remove subclassing and start over trying to balance the game from there. But this is the next best solution if they aren't going to undo the mistakes of the past.

Necrotech_Master · April 24

the reason they are adding class passives in the first place is to balance pureclass builds with subclassed builds

subclassed builds are generally stronger because you can basically stack 3 tank, 3 healer, or 3 DPS skill lines for more efficacy

the pureclass builds are weaker as most classes are designed around the 1 tank, 1 heal, 1 dps skill lines, so if your dps on a pure class, if you were trying to min/max you would effectively be weaker than doing a subclass

the class refreshes they are doing are to basically also help pureclass builds, by basically mixing up the tank/heal/dps skills amongst the lines instead of heavy focusing in each line, and then the class masteries on top of that are to also help alleviate the difference in power with subclassing

as for all the zos balancing, some of that definitely leaves a lot to be desired due to the fact that almost everything they put out initially ranges from borderline to egregiously OP

Destai · April 24

Subclassing felt like a radical move to bring some players back and offer a class-change token alternative. It was apparent from the start that it would create power spikes, and they even said as much. The game wasn't designed for that, and it's hard to pull back power once granted. And I'm not sure they even should.

Personally, I would've launched subclassing in tandem with a complete class rework. But, we're here. I don't hate subclassing, FWIW, and have a few builds I like. Still, I definitely see the value in getting pure classing up to par. Something to shake up the homogenized meta that we're in. I just hope it's not done at the expense of people's effort who aren't sweat end-gamers. Some of the moves in U50 worry me.

Regardless, we'll get there. Maybe with some heartburn along the way. I overall like the place we're heading to with all of this. You can mix and match, you can stay focused on one class. Conceptually, seems fine to me. If they do more buffing than nerfing, I think we'll be ok.

Sugram22 · April 24

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the reason they are adding class passives in the first place is to balance pureclass builds with subclassed builds

subclassed builds are generally stronger because you can basically stack 3 tank, 3 healer, or 3 DPS skill lines for more efficacy

the pureclass builds are weaker as most classes are designed around the 1 tank, 1 heal, 1 dps skill lines, so if your dps on a pure class, if you were trying to min/max you would effectively be weaker than doing a subclass

the class refreshes they are doing are to basically also help pureclass builds, by basically mixing up the tank/heal/dps skills amongst the lines instead of heavy focusing in each line, and then the class masteries on top of that are to also help alleviate the difference in power with subclassing

as for all the zos balancing, some of that definitely leaves a lot to be desired due to the fact that almost everything they put out initially ranges from borderline to egregiously OP

yea no, actually pure class is stronger cause class passives rely on class passives being slotted, u loose a lot when u take away class skills from slots, and subclassing wont make up for the loss, have 2 sorcerer skills and 2 warden skills and one inner light or camo hunter and no second subclass skills slotted, or pure sorc 4 skills and camo hunnter/inner light and sorc gets more boost to damage then the combo

that's why i called it low key scam and said the passives need subclass effects/bonuses to make up the loss

only exemption is pet build, if u use pets of all 3 pet classes this is only one that is stronger then pure class

Renato90085 · April 24

No,You only 12 slot can put skill,so subclass is a “free give up terrible line and take all over power thing”system and you can’t say shadow skill have 2more sec work time or every shadow give you 3%max health is better than 12%crit dmg or 4k pen passive for dps
Because you just lost useless skill and terrible passive to swap better one

SandandStars · April 24

Sugram22 wrote: »

as i heard new DK is top dog in PVE dungeons and trials, and less then before in PVP

Nah, they're much stronger in PVP too.

Crazy sustain, whip spammable hits for 30K (15k with battle spirit) and all the other goodies like Corrosive.

A lot of potatoes build them tanky and just sit there waiting for Corrosive. Then you're cooked.

Sugram22 · April 25

Renato90085 wrote: »

No,You only 12 slot can put skill,so subclass is a “free give up terrible line and take all over power thing”system and you can’t say shadow skill have 2more sec work time or every shadow give you 3%max health is better than 12%crit dmg or 4k pen passive for dps
Because you just lost useless skill and terrible passive to swap better one

this is where u lost the plot cause of this:
Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.

u would be right if the passive would work without this (for each Assassination ability slotted), in other words u would be right if they wouldn't rely on class skills being slotted just locket like this:
Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 2629.

cause u can have 2 assassinate skills on ur bar, but as pure build u can have 4 or even 5, so huge power difference, and huge loss for subclass sins the crit damage relies on slotted class skills

Renato90085 · April 25

Sugram22 wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

No,You only 12 slot can put skill,so subclass is a “free give up terrible line and take all over power thing”system and you can’t say shadow skill have 2more sec work time or every shadow give you 3%max health is better than 12%crit dmg or 4k pen passive for dps
Because you just lost useless skill and terrible passive to swap better one

this is where u lost the plot cause of this:
Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted.

u would be right if the passive would work without this (for each Assassination ability slotted), in other words u would be right if they wouldn't rely on class skills being slotted just locket like this:
Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 2629.

cause u can have 2 assassinate skills on ur bar, but as pure build u can have 4 or even 5, so huge power difference, and huge loss for subclass sins the crit damage relies on slotted class skills

i am talk about if you are a nb and give up shadow(the sec wrost line) to swap Herald of the Tome(the best dps line) is a free overpower buff..
and you forget a fact is Assassination only have 3 good skill(incap/killer blade/grim focus ) other part is trash,so you are hard found any good build use all class skill
and good passive like Hemorrhage and Master Assassin is good passive,so if you are not a nb, why not give up tank or healer line to swap Assassination
and dps mean Dmg Per Sec,so every one need at GCD did highest dps,a pure nb killerblade max dmg maybe 140k one hit
the subclass can stack passive and buff to did 220k one hit
it why passive subclass don't need new PTS passive
because balance way is nerf subclass 30-55% power/give pure only passive or all passive work like " Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical ratings by 438 for each Assassination ability slotted
because 3dps line better than 1 dps line

Renato90085 · April 25

meta pure nb stat and build

full Assassination pure nb,crit +5% lost 100+WD and cloak 10% pve buff

subclass nb give up shadow +3720 pen/status chance and dmg buf/ 12% crit dmg/438WD/8%dmg buff and have aoe cleave,lost 100+WD and cloak 10% pve buff and 2.5% crit chance

This doesn't even take into account the no name buff stacking during actual combat and 3rd dps line have better skill /crit chance or dmg buff like grave lord
and you can't include things you would never have received in the first place.
like other 3 more Assassination crit bonus.
Because they are not worthy to use