Race passives balance makes more sense now

ZDunlain · April 18

Hi guys,

Thanks to the new class mastery passives, specifically Font of power

The gap between classes that have weapon/spell damage and max resources and those who don't is wider. And don't take me wrong, the new passives are awesome but maybe it is time to do something new with race passives.

For example:
-Maintain the unique race passives: like Argonian potion passive, spell resistance on bretons, critical damage on khajiits, cost reduction on imperials, and so on.
-Let players choose the other passives: like in skill scribing but in passives, why an imperial or redguard cannot have maximum magicka as a mage? There are a lot of important mages in these races, and why not an altmer can have maximum stamina? And so on. And the same applies to weapon/spell damage race passives.
-Maybe a mix of both examples can be also really nice.

I would like to hear your opinion about this topic, everyone is welcome!

SDKTJ · April 18

How are you commenting on the race gap while saying the unique passives are fine? Those are extremely meaningful and have more impact than the max resources. Khajiit's crit damage already puts them ahead for dps when not at crit cap. If you could swap out their trash recovery passive and worse max resources passives for the best options, then the gap widens.

Personally I don't think race passives should be a thing besides the flavour ones that are intrinsic such as Argonian's swim speed, Kahjiit's additional pickpocket chance, Nord's additional duration of drinks, etc.

My race choice is picked on what's best in content, and I'm sure it's the same for most of the playerbase. Race has a noticeable effect on your performance in this game, I would prefer if you could pick what looked cool and select any passives. Call it race transmog or whatever.

Nemesis7884 · April 18

Racial differences have always been a thing in elder scrolls, they fit the lore and help with immersion...besides, the differences are minor and dont matter in the big scheme of things...

Dracane · April 18

Seems fitting and lore accurate that a High Elf or Dark Elf would be more proficient as a Sorcerer over an Argonian or a Khajiit. Every race has prominent mages and warriors, and even when translated into gameplay, an Imperial Sorcerer could absolutely demolish a Dark Elf Sorc if they were more skilled. Those passives make no difference in the grand scheme.

I only agree that Dark Elf might need to be looked at a bit, since they have been the top choice for both magicka and stamina for a long time. They have no downsides.

emilyhyoyeon · April 18

Dracane wrote: »

I only agree that Dark Elf might need to be looked at a bit, since they have been the top choice for both magicka and stamina for a long time. They have no downsides.

There are also some like Redguard that are inappropriately underpowered. With the current passives, Altmer are more powerful warriors than Redguards, for example.

Dracane · April 18

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I only agree that Dark Elf might need to be looked at a bit, since they have been the top choice for both magicka and stamina for a long time. They have no downsides.

There are also some like Redguard that are inappropriately underpowered. With the current passives, Altmer are more powerful warriors than Redguards, for example.

The philosophy of the racial restructuring some years back was that no race should have both; good damage and good sustain. Altmer is supposed to be a damage race with no main stat sustain, while Redguard is a sustain race.

So it is not underpowered at all. You just may not value stamina recovery or see it as equally important. You do 0 damage once you are out of ressources. It's just that the game gives us more and more tools to sustain more easily. So that would be an entirely different debate.

emilyhyoyeon · April 18

Dracane wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I only agree that Dark Elf might need to be looked at a bit, since they have been the top choice for both magicka and stamina for a long time. They have no downsides.

There are also some like Redguard that are inappropriately underpowered. With the current passives, Altmer are more powerful warriors than Redguards, for example.

The philosophy of the racial restructuring some years back was that no race should have both; good damage and good sustain. Altmer is supposed to be a damage race with no main stat sustain, while Redguard is a sustain race.

So it is not underpowered at all. You just may not value stamina recovery or see it as equally important. You do 0 damage once you are out of ressources. It's just that the game gives us more and more tools to sustain more easily. So that would be an entirely different debate.

Altmer are famously proficient for magic prowess, not martial prowess. It doesn't matter if Redguards have 6,000% stamina regen; Altmer should NOT have a weapon damage bonus.

Dracane · April 18

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I only agree that Dark Elf might need to be looked at a bit, since they have been the top choice for both magicka and stamina for a long time. They have no downsides.

There are also some like Redguard that are inappropriately underpowered. With the current passives, Altmer are more powerful warriors than Redguards, for example.

The philosophy of the racial restructuring some years back was that no race should have both; good damage and good sustain. Altmer is supposed to be a damage race with no main stat sustain, while Redguard is a sustain race.

So it is not underpowered at all. You just may not value stamina recovery or see it as equally important. You do 0 damage once you are out of ressources. It's just that the game gives us more and more tools to sustain more easily. So that would be an entirely different debate.

Altmer are famously proficient for magic prowess, not martial prowess. It doesn't matter if Redguards have 6,000% stamina regen; Altmer should NOT have a weapon damage bonus.

I agree. It's probably due to the hybridization, where Spell and Weapon damage are essentially one and the same thing.

Urzigurumash · April 18

SDKTJ wrote: »

How are you commenting on the race gap while saying the unique passives are fine? Those are extremely meaningful and have more impact than the max resources. Khajiit's crit damage already puts them ahead for dps when not at crit cap. If you could swap out their trash recovery passive and worse max resources passives for the best options, then the gap widens.

Personally I don't think race passives should be a thing besides the flavour ones that are intrinsic such as Argonian's swim speed, Kahjiit's additional pickpocket chance, Nord's additional duration of drinks, etc.

My race choice is picked on what's best in content, and I'm sure it's the same for most of the playerbase. Race has a noticeable effect on your performance in this game, I would prefer if you could pick what looked cool and select any passives. Call it race transmog or whatever.

Shouldnt the drunk race have LESS duration for each drink

skinnycheeks · April 18

I think Racial Passives should have a default that fits in with lore but an option to swap them to your liking based on your own canon for your character. There is no reason why my Breton couldn't have studied hard and been just as good at martial weaponry as a Dark Elf. Or my Redguard couldn't have studied with the Mages Guild and been just as good as any High Elf.

Give us a default but then put it in the players' hands to adjust for their character.

And I agree, the Weapon/Spell damage passives make racial imbalance worse than it ever was before they introduced those. There was a time when it was only 2k max resource between the best and worse DPS choice for Mag or Stam.

Malyore · April 19

skinnycheeks wrote: »

I think Racial Passives should have a default that fits in with lore but an option to swap them to your liking based on your own canon for your character. There is no reason why my Breton couldn't have studied hard and been just as good at martial weaponry as a Dark Elf. Or my Redguard couldn't have studied with the Mages Guild and been just as good as any High Elf.

I'd imagine that's what mundus stones/star-signs are supposed to be. And as mundus stones they are changeable rather than permanent to the character's birth.

I would welcome a from of star-signs or birth-signs as a way to adjust racial passives a bit... but I doubt they'd do that without then having to change the mundus stones to be some other magical source of permanent power that is unrelated to the stars.
It's unfortunate too. Ever since they nerfed crit values years ago, I almost always use the Thief sign now... which doesn't add any flavor to gameplay if I'm always going for the same thing regardless of class, weapon, race, or gear.

jirusan · April 21

Being able to configure the racial passives, with the armory or otherwise, would be truly awesome for me.

I would love to have one fully developed character of each class, that I can fine-tune for each role, rather than the half-baked alts I created as metas changed. This extra dps, as small as it might be, actually matters if you've been chasing a trifecta for months. There is also one vastly superior tank race, and one healer too, this is a pity.

Conversely, role players, altoholics, and lore enthusiasts could create more of their dream characters. I remember when the racial passives rework was delivered, there were (surprise!) players complaining here that something wasn't right for a reason or another. Now they could fix it themselves.

And now there are lots of precedents for configurable passives anyway. They could be configured individually, or even simply choose one of the current presets.

Dracane · April 21

jirusan wrote: »

Being able to configure the racial passives, with the armory or otherwise, would be truly awesome for me.

I would love to have one fully developed character of each class, that I can fine-tune for each role, rather than the half-baked alts I created as metas changed. This extra dps, as small as it might be, actually matters if you've been chasing a trifecta for months. There is also one vastly superior tank race, and one healer too, this is a pity.

Conversely, role players, altoholics, and lore enthusiasts could create more of their dream characters. I remember when the racial passives rework was delivered, there were (surprise!) players complaining here that something wasn't right for a reason or another. Now they could fix it themselves.

And now there are lots of precedents for configurable passives anyway. They could be configured individually, or even simply choose one of the current presets.

Why would a lore enthusiast support this? Races in TES always had fix racial skills that determined them, and ESO took their idea and expanded them a bit. (The passives though were more lore accurate before the rework a few years back)

Mixing racial traits wouldn't have anything to do with lore friendly. The idea is interesting (through a flesh sculptor?) but it ends up the same as subclassing: most will fuse the most efficient setup. Obviously I will combine Dunmer with Breton or Dunmer with Redguard to have the best of both worlds offensively speaking. Same would be done for a tank build.