Does anyone object to getting rid of CHARM completely?

SandandStars · April 15

It seems to continue to cause desync, and there is a certain portion of PVPrs who intentionally take advantage of broken/desync abilities (ROA, and now Templar's Javelin seems to be broken again).

Would anyone miss this skill, at all?

SkaiFaith · April 15

I'm no every day PvPer but I enjoy charm.
I just don't see why it should have the element of making the afflicted move forcely... Just not being able to do anything but move seems enough to do the job. If the moving element is what breaks the game just remove that effect but leave the rest.
Don't destroy charm as a whole.

YandereGirlfriend · April 15

The answer to this is simple and staring everyone in the face: "Against Monsters" and it's fixed. EZ.

Vaqual · April 16

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The answer to this is simple and staring everyone in the face: "Against Monsters" and it's fixed. EZ.

That is a lame cop out that I can't criticize enough. If they'd do that everytime it is asked the game would become devoid of meaningful mechanics. I liked when Empower was a buff to be considered in PvP. There could have been better solutions for Plaguebreak, and they basically admitted that by introducing Macabre Vintage just shortly afterwards. As much as I despise charm, "against monsters/players" is for sure worse for the game in the long term. Those conditions are just a poor excuse for bad design. They just have to stop overloading abilities and sets, then there can be room for such effects. When there is a real tradeoff to be made for it.

Charm per se can exist, but not as extra "goodie" on already solid skills or without some form of downtime enforcement.

Jabbs_Giggity · April 16

At least new WW rework is getting a 10m AOE fear...
That's charm with a 3m BUFF.

YandereGirlfriend · April 16

Vaqual wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The answer to this is simple and staring everyone in the face: "Against Monsters" and it's fixed. EZ.

That is a lame cop out that I can't criticize enough. If they'd do that everytime it is asked the game would become devoid of meaningful mechanics. I liked when Empower was a buff to be considered in PvP. There could have been better solutions for Plaguebreak, and they basically admitted that by introducing Macabre Vintage just shortly afterwards. As much as I despise charm, "against monsters/players" is for sure worse for the game in the long term. Those conditions are just a poor excuse for bad design. They just have to stop overloading abilities and sets, then there can be room for such effects. When there is a real tradeoff to be made for it.

Charm per se can exist, but not as extra "goodie" on already solid skills or without some form of downtime enforcement.

Charm is just a failed and trashcan mechanic.

It started with that Mythic that nobody uses and has gradually proliferated from there.

Nobody knows why, exactly. That sort of thing was correctly identified as toxic for the game back when old Fear effects were changed.

LunaFlora · April 16

i do not hate it so i object to removing it entirely.

Vaqual · April 16

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The answer to this is simple and staring everyone in the face: "Against Monsters" and it's fixed. EZ.

That is a lame cop out that I can't criticize enough. If they'd do that everytime it is asked the game would become devoid of meaningful mechanics. I liked when Empower was a buff to be considered in PvP. There could have been better solutions for Plaguebreak, and they basically admitted that by introducing Macabre Vintage just shortly afterwards. As much as I despise charm, "against monsters/players" is for sure worse for the game in the long term. Those conditions are just a poor excuse for bad design. They just have to stop overloading abilities and sets, then there can be room for such effects. When there is a real tradeoff to be made for it.

Charm per se can exist, but not as extra "goodie" on already solid skills or without some form of downtime enforcement.

Charm is just a failed and trashcan mechanic.

It started with that Mythic that nobody uses and has gradually proliferated from there.

Nobody knows why, exactly. That sort of thing was correctly identified as toxic for the game back when old Fear effects were changed.

Ok then we now post all the things we don't like other classes to have and put an "against monsters" on it and call it a day.

BXR_Lonestar · April 16

SandandStars wrote: »

It seems to continue to cause desync, and there is a certain portion of PVPrs who intentionally take advantage of broken/desync abilities (ROA, and now Templar's Javelin seems to be broken again).

Would anyone miss this skill, at all?

Charm needs to go, or get a severe nerf (i.e, it should work like every other CC - it should trigger immunity and be blockable and have a significant cooldown).

Even if they limited the Scripts it can be combined with, it would be a big help.

SandandStars · April 16

Vaqual wrote: »

Ok then we now post all the things we don't like other classes to have and put an "against monsters" on it and call it a day.

For the record: I'm a long-time warden main. I never considered using Charm for an instant.

It is "a failed and trashcan mechanic."

Vaqual · April 16

SandandStars wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Ok then we now post all the things we don't like other classes to have and put an "against monsters" on it and call it a day.

For the record: I'm a long-time warden main. I never considered using Charm for an instant.

It is "a failed and trashcan mechanic."

Believe me, I can relate to that perspective. There are abilities that I hate with a great passion. But I am making an effort not to judge only from my limited point of view. I can see why a charm adds value from a flavor perspective, just as much as mass hysteria made sense as a routing fear. I like it when there is a flavor to things. If I want to play only for the reaction times or the mechanical depth, I can play something other than an MMORPG. So I can accept that some implementation might not be perfect, but they can still enrich the gameplay for some people.
Of course the current version of charm is busted. I'd like not to play against it. But I can imagine that there is a way to have charms in the game that actually feels good.

YandereGirlfriend · April 17

Vaqual wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Ok then we now post all the things we don't like other classes to have and put an "against monsters" on it and call it a day.

For the record: I'm a long-time warden main. I never considered using Charm for an instant.

It is "a failed and trashcan mechanic."

Believe me, I can relate to that perspective. There are abilities that I hate with a great passion. But I am making an effort not to judge only from my limited point of view. I can see why a charm adds value from a flavor perspective, just as much as mass hysteria made sense as a routing fear. I like it when there is a flavor to things. If I want to play only for the reaction times or the mechanical depth, I can play something other than an MMORPG. So I can accept that some implementation might not be perfect, but they can still enrich the gameplay for some people.
Of course the current version of charm is busted. I'd like not to play against it. But I can imagine that there is a way to have charms in the game that actually feels good.

The only folk who actually like Charm on the merits are casual Overland types who think that it vibes with their character. That is fair enough and "against monsters" would not interfere with that in the slightest.

Meanwhile, if you took a poll, the overwhelming majority of PvP players hate Charm and want to see it gone. Even those that use it freely admit that it is stupid and toxic but use it because it gives them an obvious advantage and "they would be dumb not to". They are not appreciating the vibes. They are exploiting a broken mechanic.

I am sure that there were some casual Overland types who liked the vibes of Rush of Agony as well but that set was rightly adjusted because it was not providing a satisfactory experience in PvP. That sort of thing can and should happen again with Charm.

Vaqual · April 17

Yes but how much of that hate is contextual? Would it be an issue on a stripped down pure CC ability, like mass hysteria or even as a change to Vamp stun? Likely not nearly as much. What makes it stand out as extremely annoying is how conveniently it can be triggered, that it has a potential to bug out and the way it interacts with immunity. Those are solvable problems. If you are talking about nuking the warden class script, sure go ahead. But I don't think that outside of that charm is so much worse than, e.g. unblockable knockback. If it is placed on the right triggers for the right cost it can still have a place.

In the end I don't care enough to die on this hill anyway, I just like having options in the game. But you have a bit of a tendency to make very absolute claims. Can I like fair PvP and still like having vibes?

nightbringer1993 · April 17

Charm, necromancer nerfs and the serious class imbalance in PvP are the reasons why I stopped PvP.
It’s simply too unplayable and depressing for me these days.

Major_Mangle · April 17

While the version on PTS is marginally better than the version on live. Another major issue with the script is its low cooldown. With how powerful the AoE cc is, the cooldown should at minimum be doubled from what it currently is.

Thumbless_Bot · April 17

SandandStars wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Ok then we now post all the things we don't like other classes to have and put an "against monsters" on it and call it a day.

For the record: I'm a long-time warden main. I never considered using Charm for an instant.

It is "a failed and trashcan mechanic."

100%. Warden main for at least five years Fter dk for about the same.

Used charm for five minutes to understand it and then unslotted it.

The problem i think is that zos sees it as a success because so many people run it. They dont run it because it's fun, they run it because it is so toxic and strong.

I don't play that game. Never have and never will. That costs me but it's just not how I want to play my game.

FurryCandyHearts · April 17

whats a charm precious?

FurryCandyHearts · April 17

literally wnts to destroy th thing that makes a warden a warden, the ability to use animals to fight at their defense...

ok sure gget rid of harm and while were at itlets get rid of fire for dragon knights a jabby jabby for templars and so on down the line. lets just stand around slinging insults at each other instead of fighting bosses and monsters.. thatd be fun.

Elendildur · April 17

FurryCandyHearts wrote: »

literally wnts to destroy th thing that makes a warden a warden, the ability to use animals to fight at their defense...

ok sure gget rid of harm and while were at itlets get rid of fire for dragon knights a jabby jabby for templars and so on down the line. lets just stand around slinging insults at each other instead of fighting bosses and monsters.. thatd be fun.

Charm is not the defining feature for Wardens, esecially since Arcanists got a charm first. Charm also has no special interactions with any other part of the Warden toolkit

FurryCandyHearts · April 17

charm is the essence of how a warden acquires animals to fight for them. You're murdering my whole class identity!!! Go murder your own class identity instead!!

BAH!

CatalinaWineMixer2 · April 17

Yes. Stop taking away or nerfing skills, equipment and gear on our characters. There is already an update to it going on in the pts. These types of things are what has broken PvP. There are more of them than I can count. Anyone who is not a pure class should not have access to class mastery at all. They are not a class. That needs to be looked into first. The same thing applies with class sets, it should only apply to pure class so it cannot be exploited by Subclass. Also, the character refreshes are not complete either. Putting a temporary bandaid on these things is a problem, not a solution.

Vaqual · April 18

FurryCandyHearts wrote: »

charm is the essence of how a warden acquires animals to fight for them. You're murdering my whole class identity!!! Go murder your own class identity instead!!

BAH!

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Yes. Stop taking away or nerfing skills, equipment and gear on our characters. There is already an update to it going on in the pts. These types of things are what has broken PvP. There are more of them than I can count. Anyone who is not a pure class should not have access to class mastery at all. They are not a class. That needs to be looked into first. The same thing applies with class sets, it should only apply to pure class so it cannot be exploited by Subclass. Also, the character refreshes are not complete either. Putting a temporary bandaid on these things is a problem, not a solution.

Comments like these make me feel bad for actually defending this on a rational basis.

Thumbless_Bot · April 18

Elendildur wrote: »

FurryCandyHearts wrote: »

literally wnts to destroy th thing that makes a warden a warden, the ability to use animals to fight at their defense...

ok sure gget rid of harm and while were at itlets get rid of fire for dragon knights a jabby jabby for templars and so on down the line. lets just stand around slinging insults at each other instead of fighting bosses and monsters.. thatd be fun.

Charm is not the defining feature for Wardens, esecially since Arcanists got a charm first. Charm also has no special interactions with any other part of the Warden toolkit

I read on these forums somewhere that nb used to have this mechanic years ago but it was removed because of how buggy it was/is. Not sure though.

Elendildur · April 18

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

FurryCandyHearts wrote: »

literally wnts to destroy th thing that makes a warden a warden, the ability to use animals to fight at their defense...

ok sure gget rid of harm and while were at itlets get rid of fire for dragon knights a jabby jabby for templars and so on down the line. lets just stand around slinging insults at each other instead of fighting bosses and monsters.. thatd be fun.

Charm is not the defining feature for Wardens, esecially since Arcanists got a charm first. Charm also has no special interactions with any other part of the Warden toolkit

I read on these forums somewhere that nb used to have this mechanic years ago but it was removed because of how buggy it was/is. Not sure though.

Not sure if Nightblade ever had Charm, but they have Fear, which used to cause you to run away from whatever caused it. The final boss in Graven Deep can do it still, but for player sources, they now work more like a regular stun

YandereGirlfriend · April 18

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

FurryCandyHearts wrote: »

literally wnts to destroy th thing that makes a warden a warden, the ability to use animals to fight at their defense...

ok sure gget rid of harm and while were at itlets get rid of fire for dragon knights a jabby jabby for templars and so on down the line. lets just stand around slinging insults at each other instead of fighting bosses and monsters.. thatd be fun.

Charm is not the defining feature for Wardens, esecially since Arcanists got a charm first. Charm also has no special interactions with any other part of the Warden toolkit

I read on these forums somewhere that nb used to have this mechanic years ago but it was removed because of how buggy it was/is. Not sure though.

It did.

And it did the same exact things as Charm with the high chance of glitching you into walls and under terrain. Not to mention buggy to Break Free from. Just completely jank and unnecessary for zero added gameplay depth.

Which is why it was beyond random that Charm became a thing again. It is like the wise institutional knowledge that this type of CC is problematic was forgotten and then new folks came in and immediately made the same mistake.

El_Borracho · April 20

FurryCandyHearts wrote: »

charm is the essence of how a warden acquires animals to fight for them. You're murdering my whole class identity!!! Go murder your own class identity instead!!

BAH!

How can you murder a class identity that did not exist until Scribing, for a class that came out 7 years earlier?

Burtan · May 1

Fear/Charm have always been incredibly janky in PvP as others have said and their accessibility has only made them even more annoying.

It may be the lazy option but i wouldn't miss them one bit if they just vanished.