U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

Dracane · April 16

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

In an actual duel

Can we see some real results of actual duels? On Sorc and non-Sorc WW?

Even if lopsided my 8k dps on StamSorc was actually a duel, not a parse.

Sure i’ll record some when I log on. I haven’t seen any Sorcs doing sustained 8k DPS yet, but I’m curious to see that in a real fight.

I have seen you in Riften, and I have seen others properly duel Werewolves.

The stories shared are not fiction: Werewolf does have this crazy pressure even when someone tries their hardest to survive in a real fight. Once you drop below 50% HP vs. a Werewolf who has the Sorc mastery, most will not get up from that again and die. Dropping to 30% will actually outright kill you within your next roll dodge due to the obscene dot pressure Werewolf has combined with talents and sets.

And now I am reading Werewolf is even missing 33% WD? If that is true, then this isn't even a class mastery problem alone anymore. To think this could have even more damage...

Overamera · April 16

Arunei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I would love a video showing prior to setup on both sides plus duel itself!

It wasn't a duel. We both stood still parsing each other like parsing a dummy, each rotating through offensive and defensive rotations. The goal was to test maximum DPS on WW and maximum HPS on my Sorc. As seen from the screenshots, WW sustained a 10.2k DPS in nearly 2 minutes of dueling, and I sustained 10k+ HPS.

In an actual duel that DPS would most likely be around 8.5k-9k (accounting for blocking and roll dodges), which is still an absurd amount. Keep in mind, WW is still missing the 33% WD modifier due to a bug.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please also include the 'generic meta DK build' for comparison if you do this (Pyrebrand DK as you mentioned it is darn-close to the wolf spec you're getting hit by) so that we have something for reference as a base to compare to (I still hate that player skill and latency can cause discrepancy but it should be sufficient for highlighting these potential issues never the less.).

The generic meta build is just Zaan + Pyrebrand + Vate ice staff and the new DK class masteries. That one does around 8k DPS, but has more burst.

Both specs are currently overtuned on PTS. Interestingly enough, that DK spec cannot kill WW because they're stacking 40k+ HP.

Overamera wrote: »

Wuffy here clearly just dont want his fav playstyle nerfed. The damage WW is putting in PvP is ridiculous and clearly needs a change. @Wuffy stop demanding proof from others. Unless you go and duel React while he plays WW and you try to survive it and also try and kill him on a normal PvP build and show us video PROOF that WW isnt as strong as he says then clearly WW needs a nerf as everything posted points that WW is absolutely broken in PvP.

I'm sorry but no, just standing around hitting each other in a specific rotation without ACTUALLY dueling is NOT proof that WW is overperforming. You can't claim that treating each other like a dummy is any sort of actual testing like a real duel would be. Just like an actual dummy it doesn't take into effect actually moving around, blocking, CC, terrain, or anything else that would matter in a real fight.

And yes, we ARE allowed to demand proof that something is overperforming when that thing has been ass for so long and has only been in testing for a few days but people are already shouting for nerfs. Don't tell us not to ask for it, that only makes it seem like you're afraid of being proven wrong. Also dude has said several times iirc that they'd be happy to duel so I don't get the point in bringing that up. There has been no viable proof otherwise because again, a single duel isn't anywhere near enough of a sample size to base claims off of, ESPECIALLY if it wasn't even a real duel.

I've already seen multiple 10k dps cmx, so proof has already been shown lol. I never said he should stand there as a dummy, I literally said "DUEL". 10k DPS as a WW on dueling meta and it's already way higher than what normal classes (even reworked DK) in dueling meta for PVP is clear sample that it's OVERPERFORMING. Even as if they acted like test dummy.

This_0ne · April 16

I opened the black form for the ult from the random event of stonefalls, but I didn’t notice any changes at all (I must admit I was hoping to see that the neon traces would disappear, but there were absolutely no changes in color or anything). Is it works?
UPD. Its work, but just change fur collor in any morf for one what you chose.

React · April 16

Darkness734 wrote: »

I really hope the DEVs dont listen to the vocal minority calling for nerfs. The werewolf rework is nearly perfect it just needs access to weapon passives and better werewolf sustain for solo berserker play.

To the people calling for nerfs, literally just wait. THE PURPOSE OF EACH REWORK IS TO MAKE IT VIABLE. that means they'll get to your class.

Werewolf isn't a class. It is an ult. If you'd like us to view WW through the lens of "every reworked class should be DK level", then you must also agree that werewolf shouldn't benefit from the class mastery passives, right? Because if WW is it's own class, like you say, why should it benefit from sorc class mastery passives?

I'm not even saying that is what should happen, just pointing out the flaw in your logic here.

I do actually agree with the sentiment that the reworked classes should be DK level, for the record. But what is happening on the PTS with WW is absurd. It reminds me of the patch where dots proc'd your weapon glyphs, and werewolves were using torgus + infused weapons. They'd hit you with a dot and you'd die within seconds. This is exactly what is happening with the properly built WW setups on PTS. This isn't damage that has counterplay. This is "I hit you with a dot and weave light attacks with my spammable, and you take 8-10k DPS". There is nothing remotely okay with that.

Darkness734 wrote: »

They absolutely should be on par with the top sweaty builds because Its for people to enjoy and have fun without worrying about memorizing 20 different button combos and trying to keep up 30 buffs at a time, while also light attack weaving (which should not even be a thing).

Nope. I'm sorry, but this exact logic is what destroyed the ESO endgame to the point it will likely never reach it's previous highs again. You should not be rewarded with the same or better damage for half of the effort as "sweaty builds". If you don't want the complexity of two bars and a full rotation, you should be willing to accept results worse than what those builds are capable of. PTS WW is doing in excess of 50-100% more damage compared to top meta specs in PVP. That is completely absurd.

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm just gonna say, if the concern is "I took high damage while I let someone parse on me" from a class that has no burst combo capability, that's not really a problem. If a class is capable of dealing a sustained pressure of 6-8k during a duel but is then capable of hitting a burst of 20k plus in a short window, 90% of the time that class will win a fight. If anything, it's an argument that when a class has no proper burst combo, they should have higher pressure than normal.

When you are dealing 8-10k DPS to somebody, the second they stop blocking/healing/kiting/LOS'ing to hit you back, they will die. I truly do not think a single person arguing in favor of WW in this thread has ever taken more than 6k dps from a player before. Like Alchimiste said, it isn't a matter of if you die when you are taking that kind of damage. It is a matter of when.

Further, I keep seeing people tout the "one bar" aspect of WW as a drawback, when that couldn't be further from reality. If the devs have shoehorned every buff you need into one bar worth of skills, and the end result is that you're more effective than a two bar setup - that one bar aspect is a buff, not a drawback. Especially in regards to maintaining pressure - you don't need to barswap to cast your burst heals, all your offensive skills are healing you, etc. It is a nasty combination in the case of PTS WW.

I don't want to see it gutted. I am totally fine with WWs doing more damage than they have in the past, especially if they're a bit easier to kill by comparison. They cannot be dealing 50-100% more damage than min/max meta PVP specs which use two bars. That is completely unreasonable.

Orbital78 · April 16

I'll just be happy if werewolf are adjusted up enough to be fun and still be viable for veteran content, even if not hard mode. Currently 110-120k dps seems to be the cut off for newer trials. As for pvp, that is a whole different can of worms, I hope they can make both good via battle spirit somehow and not drop the ball.

Yarcanine · April 16

React wrote: »

Darkness734 wrote: »

I really hope the DEVs dont listen to the vocal minority calling for nerfs. The werewolf rework is nearly perfect it just needs access to weapon passives and better werewolf sustain for solo berserker play.

To the people calling for nerfs, literally just wait. THE PURPOSE OF EACH REWORK IS TO MAKE IT VIABLE. that means they'll get to your class.

Werewolf isn't a class. It is an ult. If you'd like us to view WW through the lens of "every reworked class should be DK level", then you must also agree that werewolf shouldn't benefit from the class mastery passives, right? Because if WW is it's own class, like you say, why should it benefit from sorc class mastery passives?

I'm not even saying that is what should happen, just pointing out the flaw in your logic here.

I do actually agree with the sentiment that the reworked classes should be DK level, for the record. But what is happening on the PTS with WW is absurd. It reminds me of the patch where dots proc'd your weapon glyphs, and werewolves were using torgus + infused weapons. They'd hit you with a dot and you'd die within seconds. This is exactly what is happening with the properly built WW setups on PTS. This isn't damage that has counterplay. This is "I hit you with a dot and weave light attacks with my spammable, and you take 8-10k DPS". There is nothing remotely okay with that.

Darkness734 wrote: »

They absolutely should be on par with the top sweaty builds because Its for people to enjoy and have fun without worrying about memorizing 20 different button combos and trying to keep up 30 buffs at a time, while also light attack weaving (which should not even be a thing).

Nope. I'm sorry, but this exact logic is what destroyed the ESO endgame to the point it will likely never reach it's previous highs again. You should not be rewarded with the same or better damage for half of the effort as "sweaty builds". If you don't want the complexity of two bars and a full rotation, you should be willing to accept results worse than what those builds are capable of. PTS WW is doing in excess of 50-100% more damage compared to top meta specs in PVP. That is completely absurd.

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm just gonna say, if the concern is "I took high damage while I let someone parse on me" from a class that has no burst combo capability, that's not really a problem. If a class is capable of dealing a sustained pressure of 6-8k during a duel but is then capable of hitting a burst of 20k plus in a short window, 90% of the time that class will win a fight. If anything, it's an argument that when a class has no proper burst combo, they should have higher pressure than normal.

When you are dealing 8-10k DPS to somebody, the second they stop blocking/healing/kiting/LOS'ing to hit you back, they will die. I truly do not think a single person arguing in favor of WW in this thread has ever taken more than 6k dps from a player before. Like Alchimiste said, it isn't a matter of if you die when you are taking that kind of damage. It is a matter of when.

Further, I keep seeing people tout the "one bar" aspect of WW as a drawback, when that couldn't be further from reality. If the devs have shoehorned every buff you need into one bar worth of skills, and the end result is that you're more effective than a two bar setup - that one bar aspect is a buff, not a drawback. Especially in regards to maintaining pressure - you don't need to barswap to cast your burst heals, all your offensive skills are healing you, etc. It is a nasty combination in the case of PTS WW.

I don't want to see it gutted. I am totally fine with WWs doing more damage than they have in the past, especially if they're a bit easier to kill by comparison. They cannot be dealing 50-100% more damage than min/max meta PVP specs which use two bars. That is completely unreasonable.

Have you considered that youre not supposed to brute force fight a pressure build like WW and expect to win. You're meant to kite and burst them or use counters like Shared Pain, Maras Balm, Cutting Defense, etc

Wup_sa · April 16

Yarcanine wrote: »

React wrote: »

Darkness734 wrote: »

I really hope the DEVs dont listen to the vocal minority calling for nerfs. The werewolf rework is nearly perfect it just needs access to weapon passives and better werewolf sustain for solo berserker play.

To the people calling for nerfs, literally just wait. THE PURPOSE OF EACH REWORK IS TO MAKE IT VIABLE. that means they'll get to your class.

Werewolf isn't a class. It is an ult. If you'd like us to view WW through the lens of "every reworked class should be DK level", then you must also agree that werewolf shouldn't benefit from the class mastery passives, right? Because if WW is it's own class, like you say, why should it benefit from sorc class mastery passives?

I'm not even saying that is what should happen, just pointing out the flaw in your logic here.

I do actually agree with the sentiment that the reworked classes should be DK level, for the record. But what is happening on the PTS with WW is absurd. It reminds me of the patch where dots proc'd your weapon glyphs, and werewolves were using torgus + infused weapons. They'd hit you with a dot and you'd die within seconds. This is exactly what is happening with the properly built WW setups on PTS. This isn't damage that has counterplay. This is "I hit you with a dot and weave light attacks with my spammable, and you take 8-10k DPS". There is nothing remotely okay with that.

Darkness734 wrote: »

They absolutely should be on par with the top sweaty builds because Its for people to enjoy and have fun without worrying about memorizing 20 different button combos and trying to keep up 30 buffs at a time, while also light attack weaving (which should not even be a thing).

Nope. I'm sorry, but this exact logic is what destroyed the ESO endgame to the point it will likely never reach it's previous highs again. You should not be rewarded with the same or better damage for half of the effort as "sweaty builds". If you don't want the complexity of two bars and a full rotation, you should be willing to accept results worse than what those builds are capable of. PTS WW is doing in excess of 50-100% more damage compared to top meta specs in PVP. That is completely absurd.

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm just gonna say, if the concern is "I took high damage while I let someone parse on me" from a class that has no burst combo capability, that's not really a problem. If a class is capable of dealing a sustained pressure of 6-8k during a duel but is then capable of hitting a burst of 20k plus in a short window, 90% of the time that class will win a fight. If anything, it's an argument that when a class has no proper burst combo, they should have higher pressure than normal.

When you are dealing 8-10k DPS to somebody, the second they stop blocking/healing/kiting/LOS'ing to hit you back, they will die. I truly do not think a single person arguing in favor of WW in this thread has ever taken more than 6k dps from a player before. Like Alchimiste said, it isn't a matter of if you die when you are taking that kind of damage. It is a matter of when.

Further, I keep seeing people tout the "one bar" aspect of WW as a drawback, when that couldn't be further from reality. If the devs have shoehorned every buff you need into one bar worth of skills, and the end result is that you're more effective than a two bar setup - that one bar aspect is a buff, not a drawback. Especially in regards to maintaining pressure - you don't need to barswap to cast your burst heals, all your offensive skills are healing you, etc. It is a nasty combination in the case of PTS WW.

I don't want to see it gutted. I am totally fine with WWs doing more damage than they have in the past, especially if they're a bit easier to kill by comparison. They cannot be dealing 50-100% more damage than min/max meta PVP specs which use two bars. That is completely unreasonable.

Have you considered that youre not supposed to brute force fight a pressure build like WW and expect to win. You're meant to kite and burst them or use counters like Shared Pain, Maras Balm, Cutting Defense, etc

Honestly, nobody should be required to make a hardcounter build, just to deal with one very overtuned ultimate.

I've been dueling on pts as a WW mostly now and I can literally slot the mythic that gives 50% dmg reduction and never die, because stam stays at 100% all the time by itself on WW.

On top of that I can pair relequeen and oakfather/tfs to basically have enough pressure to kill anyone that isn't completely turtling the whole time or a pure tank.

coop500 · April 16

Orbital78 wrote: »

I'll just be happy if werewolf are adjusted up enough to be fun and still be viable for veteran content, even if not hard mode. Currently 110-120k dps seems to be the cut off for newer trials. As for pvp, that is a whole different can of worms, I hope they can make both good via battle spirit somehow and not drop the ball.

Yeah that's my biggest worry with all this nonsense is that any adjustments done for PvP won't just stick to PvP, including all the people asking werewolf to be excluded from ALL class masteries over one problematic Sorc one.

Callosum · April 16

It might sound a bit boring, but I honestly don’t think class passives should be active during werewolf form.
Keeping them introduces an extra layer of complexity that everything, especially class masteries, has to be balanced around.

Class masteries shouldn’t need adjustments just because werewolf form always has to be factored in. That kind of dependency makes balancing more complex than it needs to be.

It also creates a situation where certain classes become objectively “best” for werewolf, rather than the form feeling consistent and equally viable across all classes.

A simpler and cleaner solution would be to disable class passives entirely while in werewolf form, and then adjust the werewolf skill tree and passives accordingly to compensate.

coop500 · April 16

Ironic case in point LOL

SneaK · April 16

So is it Implosion that is the problem (I know it’s not a singular problem but)? I don’t have access to PTS. I would just say now isn’t the time to gatekeep anything, if something is a concern it really should be spelled out here so it can be worked on.

Dracane · April 16

SneaK wrote: »

So is it Implosion that is the problem (I know it’s not a singular problem but)? I don’t have access to PTS. I would just say now isn’t the time to gatekeep anything, if something is a concern it really should be spelled out here so it can be worked on.

Implosion is a problem on certain builds or totally useless on normal builds. Dot heavy builds with many ticks, like Werewolf and proc sets, make it very problematic. That is easy to fix, if they want to.

Yet considering Werewolf is apparently missing 33% weapon damage and already does immense damage (even without being a Sorc) I think Werewolf itself is also a big part of the problem.

coop500 · April 16

SneaK wrote: »

So is it Implosion that is the problem (I know it’s not a singular problem but)? I don’t have access to PTS. I would just say now isn’t the time to gatekeep anything, if something is a concern it really should be spelled out here so it can be worked on.

From my limited understanding, PvPers are battling over the (possibly) severe damage werewolf can deal while using a specific Class Mastery, a Sorcerer one.
Why this Sorcerer class mastery isn't the thing in question however, baffles me. Instead of demanding Werewolf to be gutted or excluded from the Class Mastery system entirely.

Panderbander · April 16

React wrote: »

When you are dealing 8-10k DPS to somebody, the second they stop blocking/healing/kiting/LOS'ing to hit you back, they will die. I truly do not think a single person arguing in favor of WW in this thread has ever taken more than 6k dps from a player before. Like Alchimiste said, it isn't a matter of if you die when you are taking that kind of damage. It is a matter of when.

Further, I keep seeing people tout the "one bar" aspect of WW as a drawback, when that couldn't be further from reality. If the devs have shoehorned every buff you need into one bar worth of skills, and the end result is that you're more effective than a two bar setup - that one bar aspect is a buff, not a drawback. Especially in regards to maintaining pressure - you don't need to barswap to cast your burst heals, all your offensive skills are healing you, etc. It is a nasty combination in the case of PTS WW.

I've consistently found the added utility and flexibility of a back bar (with the added bonus of getting 2 5 piece sets, a mythic, and a monster set) made pvp far easier than being shoehorned into 5 preset abilities on a single bar (getting either two 5 piece bonuses or a monster set when running a mythic, never both).

Additionally, nobody is taking 8-10k in an actual fight. Standing around being an execute-range punching bag is going to result in you taking a boatload of damage. It's like calling templar overpowered and broken when you let them repeatedly beam you at 25% HP.

Arunei · April 16

Overamera wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I would love a video showing prior to setup on both sides plus duel itself!

It wasn't a duel. We both stood still parsing each other like parsing a dummy, each rotating through offensive and defensive rotations. The goal was to test maximum DPS on WW and maximum HPS on my Sorc. As seen from the screenshots, WW sustained a 10.2k DPS in nearly 2 minutes of dueling, and I sustained 10k+ HPS.

In an actual duel that DPS would most likely be around 8.5k-9k (accounting for blocking and roll dodges), which is still an absurd amount. Keep in mind, WW is still missing the 33% WD modifier due to a bug.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please also include the 'generic meta DK build' for comparison if you do this (Pyrebrand DK as you mentioned it is darn-close to the wolf spec you're getting hit by) so that we have something for reference as a base to compare to (I still hate that player skill and latency can cause discrepancy but it should be sufficient for highlighting these potential issues never the less.).

The generic meta build is just Zaan + Pyrebrand + Vate ice staff and the new DK class masteries. That one does around 8k DPS, but has more burst.

Both specs are currently overtuned on PTS. Interestingly enough, that DK spec cannot kill WW because they're stacking 40k+ HP.

Overamera wrote: »

Wuffy here clearly just dont want his fav playstyle nerfed. The damage WW is putting in PvP is ridiculous and clearly needs a change. @Wuffy stop demanding proof from others. Unless you go and duel React while he plays WW and you try to survive it and also try and kill him on a normal PvP build and show us video PROOF that WW isnt as strong as he says then clearly WW needs a nerf as everything posted points that WW is absolutely broken in PvP.

I'm sorry but no, just standing around hitting each other in a specific rotation without ACTUALLY dueling is NOT proof that WW is overperforming. You can't claim that treating each other like a dummy is any sort of actual testing like a real duel would be. Just like an actual dummy it doesn't take into effect actually moving around, blocking, CC, terrain, or anything else that would matter in a real fight.

And yes, we ARE allowed to demand proof that something is overperforming when that thing has been ass for so long and has only been in testing for a few days but people are already shouting for nerfs. Don't tell us not to ask for it, that only makes it seem like you're afraid of being proven wrong. Also dude has said several times iirc that they'd be happy to duel so I don't get the point in bringing that up. There has been no viable proof otherwise because again, a single duel isn't anywhere near enough of a sample size to base claims off of, ESPECIALLY if it wasn't even a real duel.

I've already seen multiple 10k dps cmx, so proof has already been shown lol. I never said he should stand there as a dummy, I literally said "DUEL". 10k DPS as a WW on dueling meta and it's already way higher than what normal classes (even reworked DK) in dueling meta for PVP is clear sample that it's OVERPERFORMING. Even as if they acted like test dummy.

Then you wouldn't mind sharing those combat metrics if you've seen so many, right? Like I said, without proof people can claim whatever they want to suit their argument. Claiming you've seen these isn't the same as posting the proof for everyone else to see as well.

That's why I said people need to be testing with various builds, both the WW AND the non-WW. Get actual video or combat stats proof and share it. That way everyone can see if WW IS the OP thing or if it's other things that need changing. Rather than acting like WW is 100% the problem for sure and not even considering the potential for other factors to be at play.

Because refusing to acknowledge other things might be contributing to a problem is how we get things nerfed into the ground. Again. And I'll reiterate my previous point; dueling is NOT all of PvP. It's one part of it, and all the other kinds of PvP can have you getting piled by numerous players. You can't try to balance for all of PvP because of how something performs in one instance of it.

xylena · April 16

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

The fact that a 1 bar WW build with BROKEN weapon damage passives is getting 8K+ dps on players cannot go live.

hoangdz wrote: »

Sure i’ll record some when I log on. I haven’t seen any Sorcs doing sustained 8k DPS yet, but I’m curious to see that in a real fight.

Here are some "real fight" results of my Sorc vs WW dueler. Confirmed that 8k on StamSorc is replicable, even vs WW. In practice, WW has a hard time landing hits on Sorc.

Duel #1: Sorc win

Duel #2: WW win

Duel #3: Sorc win

From my POV, in practice WW seems balanced vs Sorc and DK. If anything is a problem it's Relequen doing 20% of your dps just from light attacking. It does not need to exist. Many metagame problems could be solved slamming "while Battle Spirit is inactive" onto certain sets.

ZhuJiuyin · April 16

Normally, I would argue that a 1-bar build shouldn't be stronger than a 2-bar build, but I believe the werewolf is an exception.
First, the werewolf's abilities are fixed, unlike other 1-bar builds that allow for free skill selection. Therefore, the werewolf lacks many essential survival tools, such as barriers and cleanses.
Second, in werewolf form, the werewolf must withstand additional poison damage and suffer the negative effects of losing weapon passives.
Third, if a transformation occurs (reverting to human or becoming a werewolf), the player is completely unable to do anything during this time. Although the new werewolf transformation animation seems shorter, this period is still incredibly vulnerable, and werewolf players need to pay extra attention to and control their transformation time, requiring a higher level of skill compared to other 1-bar builds.

As for sorc mastery, I think simply adding a condition "when dealing direct or shock damage" would effectively prevent werewolves from abusing sorc mastery.

Overamera · April 16

Arunei wrote: »

Overamera wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I would love a video showing prior to setup on both sides plus duel itself!

It wasn't a duel. We both stood still parsing each other like parsing a dummy, each rotating through offensive and defensive rotations. The goal was to test maximum DPS on WW and maximum HPS on my Sorc. As seen from the screenshots, WW sustained a 10.2k DPS in nearly 2 minutes of dueling, and I sustained 10k+ HPS.

In an actual duel that DPS would most likely be around 8.5k-9k (accounting for blocking and roll dodges), which is still an absurd amount. Keep in mind, WW is still missing the 33% WD modifier due to a bug.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please also include the 'generic meta DK build' for comparison if you do this (Pyrebrand DK as you mentioned it is darn-close to the wolf spec you're getting hit by) so that we have something for reference as a base to compare to (I still hate that player skill and latency can cause discrepancy but it should be sufficient for highlighting these potential issues never the less.).

The generic meta build is just Zaan + Pyrebrand + Vate ice staff and the new DK class masteries. That one does around 8k DPS, but has more burst.

Both specs are currently overtuned on PTS. Interestingly enough, that DK spec cannot kill WW because they're stacking 40k+ HP.

Overamera wrote: »

Wuffy here clearly just dont want his fav playstyle nerfed. The damage WW is putting in PvP is ridiculous and clearly needs a change. @Wuffy stop demanding proof from others. Unless you go and duel React while he plays WW and you try to survive it and also try and kill him on a normal PvP build and show us video PROOF that WW isnt as strong as he says then clearly WW needs a nerf as everything posted points that WW is absolutely broken in PvP.

I'm sorry but no, just standing around hitting each other in a specific rotation without ACTUALLY dueling is NOT proof that WW is overperforming. You can't claim that treating each other like a dummy is any sort of actual testing like a real duel would be. Just like an actual dummy it doesn't take into effect actually moving around, blocking, CC, terrain, or anything else that would matter in a real fight.

And yes, we ARE allowed to demand proof that something is overperforming when that thing has been ass for so long and has only been in testing for a few days but people are already shouting for nerfs. Don't tell us not to ask for it, that only makes it seem like you're afraid of being proven wrong. Also dude has said several times iirc that they'd be happy to duel so I don't get the point in bringing that up. There has been no viable proof otherwise because again, a single duel isn't anywhere near enough of a sample size to base claims off of, ESPECIALLY if it wasn't even a real duel.

I've already seen multiple 10k dps cmx, so proof has already been shown lol. I never said he should stand there as a dummy, I literally said "DUEL". 10k DPS as a WW on dueling meta and it's already way higher than what normal classes (even reworked DK) in dueling meta for PVP is clear sample that it's OVERPERFORMING. Even as if they acted like test dummy.

Then you wouldn't mind sharing those combat metrics if you've seen so many, right? Like I said, without proof people can claim whatever they want to suit their argument. Claiming you've seen these isn't the same as posting the proof for everyone else to see as well.

That's why I said people need to be testing with various builds, both the WW AND the non-WW. Get actual video or combat stats proof and share it. That way everyone can see if WW IS the OP thing or if it's other things that need changing. Rather than acting like WW is 100% the problem for sure and not even considering the potential for other factors to be at play.

Because refusing to acknowledge other things might be contributing to a problem is how we get things nerfed into the ground. Again. And I'll reiterate my previous point; dueling is NOT all of PvP. It's one part of it, and all the other kinds of PvP can have you getting piled by numerous players. You can't try to balance for all of PvP because of how something performs in one instance of it.

Did you miss the 10k dps metrics already posted on this thread?

Wuuffyy · April 16

xylena wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

The fact that a 1 bar WW build with BROKEN weapon damage passives is getting 8K+ dps on players cannot go live.

hoangdz wrote: »

Sure i’ll record some when I log on. I haven’t seen any Sorcs doing sustained 8k DPS yet, but I’m curious to see that in a real fight.

Here are some "real fight" results of my Sorc vs WW dueler. Confirmed that 8k on StamSorc is replicable, even vs WW. In practice, WW has a hard time landing hits on Sorc.

Duel #1: Sorc win

Duel #2: WW win

Duel #3: Sorc win

From my POV, in practice WW seems balanced vs Sorc and DK. If anything is a problem it's Relequen doing 20% of your dps just from light attacking. It does not need to exist. Many metagame problems could be solved slamming "while Battle Spirit is inactive" onto certain sets.

I'm the one calling it before this devolves into madness-

If you don't have a video, you don't have proof prior or going forward (a CMX on a 'PvP dummy' means nothing). You are showing no one what you're wearing/doing outside of your visible procs (*cough* *cough* Relequen) or what your opponent is wearing or doing at all- this is highly disingenuous and not sufficient when you're talking about something needing to be nerfed by numbers alone.

I searched through the last few pages (so sincere apologies if I missed something) and even the person that said they were going to source a video didn't (I periodically checked out of respect for potential effort well throughout the day); the main individual making the claim did not source a video despite this being requested of them a number over 5 times. The nerf-calling party (the handful of individuals that jumped in here within minutes of each other with an agenda) has the 'burden of' real 'proof', unfortunately for them.

Werewolf is not a class, it's an ult that locks you out of abilities (and it is balanced around this AND still having access to class passives). I can still turn back into human also after all (it's literally never been cheaper to go back and forth before). Removing class passives for even werewolf alone removes my abilities to 'do what I want' and pureclass effectively in my human form.

If you want this or werewolf to be gutted, you must provide real proof otherwise I'm shipping it to live (yes, me, I'm doing it

) b/c you have nothing and only live at this point can prove your point (because if you can say whatever and expect it to happen, so can I).

CalamityCat · April 16

We can't come to any solid conclusion about the strength of WW in PvP without trying WW on a range of class bases and builds to actually verify if the WW itself is broken. End of story. A video showing what is going on would make it a lot clearer too. If WW is genuinely so super OP, let's see some video evidence of that in actual mobile PvP and on different classes. If it is truly overtuned then it'll show up as that on different classes with their masteries and gear. It's like everyone's too shy to show the full picture here?

Class masteries are also new in the equation here and therefore they need to be taken into consideration. What people considered high PvP DPS on production doesn't include masteries. Did anyone test how much DPS the actual base sorc + gear + masteries can do without them being a WW? Actually properly test it like you're fighting and you mean it? What does this sorc base WW do when it has no masteries active?

If it's too strong on all classes with and without masteries then WW needs toned down for PvP (and only PvP!). But it shouldn't be nerfed until it's properly tested on all the different classes. Ideally testing these builds with and without WW to see what the class is capable of alone just with masteries. Otherwise the information is too limited to actually work as feedback/testing. Let's not nuke a cool revamp just because there is some agenda, especially if it's as ridiculous as "1 bar builds shouldn't be able to hurt me this much!" Because I know those players exist lol.

xylena · April 16

Overamera wrote: »

Did you miss the 10k dps metrics already posted on this thread?

Those were parses, not actual fights. See my post #167 above for actual fights vs WW. Can confirm that simply avoiding their attacks drastically reduces WW damage.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

As for sorc mastery, I think simply adding a condition "when dealing direct or shock damage" would effectively prevent werewolves from abusing sorc mastery.

NO. Pressure is finally competitive with burst again. The meta needs effective tools to punish stationary turtling and deny fight resets. Static Reverb, DK, and WW do exactly that.

Wuuffyy · April 16

CalamityCat wrote: »

We can't come to any solid conclusion about the strength of WW in PvP without trying WW on a range of class bases and builds to actually verify if the WW itself is broken. End of story. A video showing what is going on would make it a lot clearer too. If WW is genuinely so super OP, let's see some video evidence of that in actual mobile PvP and on different classes. If it is truly overtuned then it'll show up as that on different classes with their masteries and gear. It's like everyone's too shy to show the full picture here?

Class masteries are also new in the equation here and therefore they need to be taken into consideration. What people considered high PvP DPS on production doesn't include masteries. Did anyone test how much DPS the actual base sorc + gear + masteries can do without them being a WW? Actually properly test it like you're fighting and you mean it? What does this sorc base WW do when it has no masteries active?

If it's too strong on all classes with and without masteries then WW needs toned down for PvP (and only PvP!). But it shouldn't be nerfed until it's properly tested on all the different classes. Ideally testing these builds with and without WW to see what the class is capable of alone just with masteries. Otherwise the information is too limited to actually work as feedback/testing. Let's not nuke a cool revamp just because there is some agenda, especially if it's as ridiculous as "1 bar builds shouldn't be able to hurt me this much!" Because I know those players exist lol.

You can't b/c people are slinging their lack of evidence around like it's a badge of law and expecting the combat team to take action based on it despite the wishes of everyone involved (people MUST realize that this is the era we're in... the next reworks will be JUST as potent and we MUST retain power to complete). Nevermind werewolf having no real burst still and the potential additional dot power being their burst equivalent.

coop500 · April 16

CalamityCat wrote: »

Let's not nuke a cool revamp just because there is some agenda, especially if it's as ridiculous as "1 bar builds shouldn't be able to hurt me this much!" Because I know those players exist lol.

They exist in this very thread, a few people have already pushed this agenda, so it's not even 'I saw it!' we all see it cause it's right here haha.

I agree though, I don't care about PvP but my main dog in this fight is not losing access to Class Masteries with werewolf across the board, including in PvE, which is what some people are pushing for.

xylena · April 16

@Wuuffyy did you mean to reply to @hoangdz?

I was using duel CMX to support your argument that WW should NOT be nerfed. Those were actual fights, not dummy parses. Duels between pressure builds tend to be short.

My money is on an incoming Sorc meta, not a WW meta.

Wuuffyy · April 16

xylena wrote: »

@Wuuffyy did you mean to reply to @hoangdz?

I was using duel CMX to support your argument that WW should NOT be nerfed.

My money is on an incoming Sorc meta, not a WW meta.

I appreciate the real duels but this is just a sliver of the issue I have with the 'nerf-callers' (so I must be fair)- these CMX results are lacking so much information from sets (ESPECIALLY in reference to potential damage on werewolf-end and survivability on opponent's end), to playstyle (what are you doing?; what is your opponent doing?), and once again are just not enough to support claims of this nature.

By 'telling us' x, y, z- you nor they are proceeding to prove the information (also some information is legitimately not being shared either by previous parties, haha).

If this helps for clarity, I'm mostly referring to general groups/ avoiding name-based callouts when I feel it's possible so this wasn't directed at 'you' aside from maybe the forums 'tag' (this is why I placed in behind a spoiler as I wanted it there for reference only, as needed).

Alchimiste1 · April 16

xylena wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

The fact that a 1 bar WW build with BROKEN weapon damage passives is getting 8K+ dps on players cannot go live.

hoangdz wrote: »

Sure i’ll record some when I log on. I haven’t seen any Sorcs doing sustained 8k DPS yet, but I’m curious to see that in a real fight.

Here are some "real fight" results of my Sorc vs WW dueler. Confirmed that 8k on StamSorc is replicable, even vs WW. In practice, WW has a hard time landing hits on Sorc.

Duel #1: Sorc win

Duel #2: WW win

Duel #3: Sorc win

From my POV, in practice WW seems balanced vs Sorc and DK. If anything is a problem it's Relequen doing 20% of your dps just from light attacking. It does not need to exist. Many metagame problems could be solved slamming "while Battle Spirit is inactive" onto certain sets.

Those duels lasted like 10 seconds bruh. yeah you can burst for 10k at the start of the duel on any class. Its not sustained.
I can see by the amount of b4b cast

hoangdz · April 16

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

In an actual duel

Can we see some real results of actual duels? On Sorc and non-Sorc WW?

Even if lopsided my 8k dps on StamSorc was actually a duel, not a parse.

Sure i’ll record some when I log on. I haven’t seen any Sorcs doing sustained 8k DPS yet, but I’m curious to see that in a real fight.

I have seen you in Riften, and I have seen others properly duel Werewolves.

The stories shared are not fiction: Werewolf does have this crazy pressure even when someone tries their hardest to survive in a real fight. Once you drop below 50% HP vs. a Werewolf who has the Sorc mastery, most will not get up from that again and die. Dropping to 30% will actually outright kill you within your next roll dodge due to the obscene dot pressure Werewolf has combined with talents and sets.

And now I am reading Werewolf is even missing 33% WD? If that is true, then this isn't even a class mastery problem alone anymore. To think this could have even more damage...

Yes, I have been dueling on PTS in Riften along with my guildmates. We test a bunch of stuff there. My friend's WW build is literally killing everyone there while having 40k HP lol. I'm the only one so far that can tank his damage, but I'm also a Sorc using a very strong Sorc class passive.

Ataskir · April 16

I mean if you think about it, with how you’re able to quickly shift in and out of WW now thanks to the ult activation only using up 100, WW players technically have three bars! So by the logic of more bars mean more acceptable damage, WW is totally in line

Real talk though, while werewolf might not be a class, it’s definitely a playstyle you build around. One of our ult slots are taken up by the transformation itself, so when compared non-werewolf users we have less options even in human form.

Not to mention that taking away class mastery for the whole thing is just to going punish werewolf players for pure classing instead of subclassing.

xylena · April 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I appreciate the real duels but this is just a sliver of the issue I have with the 'nerf-callers'

Take all the help you can get. My posts were directed at the PvP duelers who understand CMX and the meta. I don't want to see WW or Class Mastery nerfed. Meanwhile we've been screaming at the devs to do something about proc sets like Relequen for years.

Attempt at short explanation so as not to derail: information you don't see basically cancels out, you're left with 1 mostly optimal StamSorc vs 1 mostly optimal WW, both piloted reasonably well. About as evenly matched as we're gonna get in a game with a zillion variables.

Duels between high damage pressure DDs are typically short. Whoever gets the upper hand first is gonna win. You don't see 8k sustained because the opponent dies too fast. To get that you need an artifical controlled environment like Hoang having someone parse on his PvP tank.

TL;DR don't nerf WW, don't nerf Class Mastery, but do nerf Relequen in PvP.

Decimus · April 16

I'm curious, what kind of results are people getting on non-sorcerer werewolf?

The way I see it, main issue is the infinite healing/sustain provided by Conservation of Energy combined with the extremely cheap werewolf abilities (some can even return you resources rather than costing them in certain cases) - this combined with what is likely a bug (Rip and Tear second hit heals for a burst heal tooltip even outside execute range) allows people to stay 100% offensive in fights.

Conservation of Energy is particularly problematic on werewolf, as you have enough stamina to dodge roll a lot and the passive Blood Magic heal/sustain return procs from dodge rolls/bashes too...

Reverberation seems less of an issue in comparison.

Also side note: it'd be nice to have better/less restrictive passives on most other classes for werewolf... Sorcerer also gets the strongest/second strongest passives for werewolf from its skill lines (DK also gets a lot of good stuff nowadays, might be slightly more offensive value than sorc).