ZOS you really gotta learn how to balance PVP

Mrtoobyy · March 29

You are pretty bad at balancing stuff for PVP...
Why overtune DK? Why do you have to stir things up so much every patch? Why not try to improve the game steadily to make it the best it can be. You make some players happy for a while with the "new toys" but you *** off so many more.

Myself and others have tried to reach out to you with feedback over the years but it always seem to fall on deaf ears.

Arvedia · March 30

Just taking a look on a - once more - OP set behind a paywall which they still haven't nerfed (yes, I'm talking to you, Monomyth) tells me that they are not interested in balancing this game in any way whatsoever.
Subclassing doesn't help either, really. But who do they have to blame? Themselves. So so many people told them but they wouldn't listen. DK rework is another example on how they usually act: Just throw in another shiny tool to lure players in and make them feel strong - at the expense of the balance. Nothing new.

But I guess with Vengeance everything will be better and the community will cheer; because for once they will be actually able to balance this mess called PvP. At least until the majority is just too bored with the limited playstyle and leave the compaign empty.

Radiate77 · March 30

As more reworks are done, the classes will be brought up to Dragonknight.

Does it suck that this is being done one at a time?
Yeah.

As a Necromancer main, the wait is agony, but I’ve been having a lot of fun with Subclassing and trying out unique thematic builds in the meanwhile. As more classes get reworked, it will feel better to Subclass into their respective Skill Lines.

nightbringer1993 · March 30

I am waiting for next PTS to see if Necro can finally be played in PvP again, but I highly doubt it, just like with every other patch’s since the blastbone nerf.

Ever since they nerfed blastbone I was forced into other classes and I considerer myself scammed by the dev team for not being able to play this PAID class. The class is simply too weak and bugged compared to other classes.

Athory · March 30

Balance!? What balance?

At level 10, I can already queue for Battlegrounds, just to end up fighting players who are CP160+ or CP2000+. These players have full gear sets, optimized builds, and all their skills unlocked.
How is that even remotely balanced? Where’s the fairness in putting a level 10 character in the same match as someone with thousands of Champion Points?

edit:
If all players were scaled to the same level in Battlegrounds, things could be very different. Imagine this: whether you’re CP2500 or level 10, everyone enters with identical stats and full access to all skills.

At that point, the only real differences would be class, race, and role.
That would actually make PvP about skill, decision-making, and teamwork. Then maybe, just maybe, PvP would be genuinely fun and fair.

But hey, if this is what they call PvP… so be it. Let’s roll.

HarfnUA · March 30

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

You are pretty bad at balancing stuff for PVP...
Why overtune DK? Why do you have to stir things up so much every patch? Why not try to improve the game steadily to make it the best it can be. You make some players happy for a while with the "new toys" but you *** off so many more.

Myself and others have tried to reach out to you with feedback over the years but it always seem to fall on deaf ears.

I mainly play BG 4x4 at a high MMR rating. If all the players in the lobby have a high MMR, PvP seems balanced. Deathmatches often end with a score of 1:2. Other game modes also seem practically balanced. Sometimes, of course, the strongest players may end up on one team, making it difficult for the other team. This is a common issue in any MMO. However, the main problem arises when there are players with both high and low MMR in the lobby. In such lobbies, it often happens that one team simply cannot leave the balcony. Another problem occurs when a strong PvP player starts playing a new character and joins a lobby with beginner players. Their score will typically be 20-30 kills, and ordinary players suffer until this player reaches high MMR.

gamergirldk · March 30

They deliberately overtune some of the DK skills to keep up with subclassing in pve, all classs will be rebalanced when the class overhall is done.

Rungar · March 30

had they redone the cp system (instead of the class refresh) to a damage type based specialization system with built in damage type weaknesses they could of balanced pvp and had great build diversity even with subclassing since no class or build would be op in all situations. Everything would have a counter but zos only knows dps so it is what it is. lol.

mitchtheelder · March 30

in 2030 they are expecting to balance it properly dont worry its gonna happen....

Weesacs · March 30

Athory wrote: »

Balance!? What balance?

At level 10, I can already queue for Battlegrounds, just to end up fighting players who are CP160+ or CP2000+. These players have full gear sets, optimized builds, and all their skills unlocked.
How is that even remotely balanced? Where’s the fairness in putting a level 10 character in the same match as someone with thousands of Champion Points?

edit:
If all players were scaled to the same level in Battlegrounds, things could be very different. Imagine this: whether you’re CP2500 or level 10, everyone enters with identical stats and full access to all skills.

At that point, the only real differences would be class, race, and role.
That would actually make PvP about skill, decision-making, and teamwork. Then maybe, just maybe, PvP would be genuinely fun and fair.

But hey, if this is what they call PvP… so be it. Let’s roll.

CP is disabled in BGs so CP levels don't matter - everyone is the same level. However what you say is true in terms of CP Cyrodill (there is a no-cp campaign which removes CP).

Also if you join the BG queue at level 10 you join the 10-49 queue so you wont see any level 50s - so again, CP level is irrelevent. BGs at that level are actually not too bad but you do encounter the odd twink fully kitted out with good gear and subclassing but most folk at that level just do the daily BGs to level their character up quickly so is just full of noobs most of the time

DMuehlhausen · March 30

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

You are pretty bad at balancing stuff for PVP...
Why overtune DK? Why do you have to stir things up so much every patch? Why not try to improve the game steadily to make it the best it can be. You make some players happy for a while with the "new toys" but you *** off so many more.

Myself and others have tried to reach out to you with feedback over the years but it always seem to fall on deaf ears.

It's impossible to balance. Mathematically it's impossible. People need accept this.

LadyGP · March 30

There will always be something people are going to cry about.

It's DKs are too strong (I'd argue they are easier to play now and not too strong but convo for another day). The next rework it's going to be Necros.

There isn't such thing as balance IMO. You can change every single skill, set, cp, etc, and there will still be a best in slot kind of gear.

Right now you've got a million DKs in Cyro because it's the new cool thing. Give it a bit and then you can all go back to crying about ball groups again.

Rungar · March 30

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

You are pretty bad at balancing stuff for PVP...
Why overtune DK? Why do you have to stir things up so much every patch? Why not try to improve the game steadily to make it the best it can be. You make some players happy for a while with the "new toys" but you *** off so many more.

Myself and others have tried to reach out to you with feedback over the years but it always seem to fall on deaf ears.

It's impossible to balance. Mathematically it's impossible. People need accept this.

its impossible if there are no weaknesses built in. That dont really happen with zos classes. Dragonknights arent weak to frost. If they were they would have a hard counter but every class or combination would have one so no one can be op in all situations. Too many dragonknights? wont be long till there are too many wardens, then whatever wardens is weak to. Eventually people will just play what they want since everything has a counter and ths is self balancing. Even if the dragonknight had the strongest dps in the game its still weak to ice damage. This wont happen with zos's method where they thrive by playing everyone off of eachother aka flavor of the patch.

rothan117 · March 30

Never seen an MMORPG with pvp that was balanced. The only way to have truly balanced pvp is everybody has exactly the same gear, exactly the same stats and exactly the same abilities. Then it comes down to skill (and who has the better internet connection and better gaming rig)

BXR_Lonestar · March 31

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

You are pretty bad at balancing stuff for PVP...
Why overtune DK? Why do you have to stir things up so much every patch? Why not try to improve the game steadily to make it the best it can be. You make some players happy for a while with the "new toys" but you *** off so many more.

Myself and others have tried to reach out to you with feedback over the years but it always seem to fall on deaf ears.

They don't know how to balance.

IMO, this is why the prior dev team gave us subclassing and scribing - so that all players had access to the same passives, skills, and abilities. It seems that their mindset is that if everyone has access to the same skills, abilities, passives, etc., then the game is balanced. Which turns out to be a really bad way to look at things.

I think this issue is compounded by the fact that the devs don't even play their own game, or if they do, not many play primarily PVP. If they did, they would know how broken some of the things they've done to this game really are (Charm, shield toss lock down glitch, etc.) and they would understand players' complaints and the need to take action because by the time people get around to posting about it here, it's ALREADY gotten out of control on the server.

To be fair. In a game like this, I don't think you can really have balance. Even in Vengence, everyone was running nightblades because their combination of mobility, damage, and healing made them the top predator. So what they need to do is stop thinking about things as being balanced on a 1 to 1 basis, and balance the game via a rock-paper-sissors effect. Put in the passives damage amplifiers vs 1-2 classes - meaning you do a ton of bonus damage vs those chosen classes; and add in innate weaknesses to different classes - meaning you are inherently weaker and take more damage from 1-2 classes.

Players would have to get used to just winning or losing fights because they're facing off against favored/disfavored opponents, but this system would promote class diversity because you have weaknesses and strengths that you can't really augment, meaning regardless of how good a player is, they are still going to be at a disadvantage when facing off against a player of equal skill on a different class.

I think this, combined with the class rework and elimination of subclassing would actually go a long way towards balancing PVP

ArctosCethlenn · March 31

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

You are pretty bad at balancing stuff for PVP...
Why overtune DK? Why do you have to stir things up so much every patch? Why not try to improve the game steadily to make it the best it can be. You make some players happy for a while with the "new toys" but you *** off so many more.

Myself and others have tried to reach out to you with feedback over the years but it always seem to fall on deaf ears.

It's impossible to balance. Mathematically it's impossible. People need accept this.

Such a stupid thing to say. Just because you can't have perfect balance doesn't mean the devs shouldn't even try, nor that players shouldn't want them to try.

BardokRedSnow · March 31

gamergirldk wrote: »

They deliberately overtune some of the DK skills to keep up with subclassing in pve, all classs will be rebalanced when the class overhall is done.

They need to pin this somewhere or something, so many people are mad over this which is disheartening because DK has been nerfed again and again and again while NB and Sorc flourish more than any other classes. I hope they don't nerf us til at the very least everyone is brought up to subclassing levels, it is a lot more fun seeing classes be buffed than nerfed, universally since I used to enjoy having necromancer bombers with me.

Palumtra · March 31

They need to separate PvE from PvP.
ie. certain skills/ passives / sets should behave differently in PvP
Right now whenever I see those dudes dueling in cities (both above 2k CP usually) and they just one tapping each other from half health.....that doesnt look like fun at all to me.

DMuehlhausen · March 31

Rungar wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

You are pretty bad at balancing stuff for PVP...
Why overtune DK? Why do you have to stir things up so much every patch? Why not try to improve the game steadily to make it the best it can be. You make some players happy for a while with the "new toys" but you *** off so many more.

Myself and others have tried to reach out to you with feedback over the years but it always seem to fall on deaf ears.

It's impossible to balance. Mathematically it's impossible. People need accept this.

its impossible if there are no weaknesses built in. That dont really happen with zos classes. Dragonknights arent weak to frost. If they were they would have a hard counter but every class or combination would have one so no one can be op in all situations. Too many dragonknights? wont be long till there are too many wardens, then whatever wardens is weak to. Eventually people will just play what they want since everything has a counter and ths is self balancing. Even if the dragonknight had the strongest dps in the game its still weak to ice damage. This wont happen with zos's method where they thrive by playing everyone off of eachother aka flavor of the patch.

It's not about weaknesses. It's about raw numbers. The skills you're using are built and designed around 4 player dungeons and 12 people Trials with enemies with HP in the 100s of millions of HP.

the only way you could possibly balance it would be to have PvP only skill lines and gear. then it could be balanced around player HP. Yes you could also throw in weaknesses to different classes to try and further level it out, but you would still have a meta class/build that people would want nerfed.

DMuehlhausen · March 31

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

You are pretty bad at balancing stuff for PVP...
Why overtune DK? Why do you have to stir things up so much every patch? Why not try to improve the game steadily to make it the best it can be. You make some players happy for a while with the "new toys" but you *** off so many more.

Myself and others have tried to reach out to you with feedback over the years but it always seem to fall on deaf ears.

It's impossible to balance. Mathematically it's impossible. People need accept this.

Such a stupid thing to say. Just because you can't have perfect balance doesn't mean the devs shouldn't even try, nor that players shouldn't want them to try.

Such a stupid response. I never said they shouldn't try or want it. I'm just saying It's not possible. There isn't a single MMO with truly balanced PvP. Even Blizzard gave up when they couldn't balance Shaman and Paladin and just said F it and gave all classes and both factions all classes.

ImPoStier · March 31

Damage should be high, tank metas ruin PvP, all classes should get DK power, DK shouldn’t be nerfed

SundarahFr3akinrican · March 31

I think matchmaking is more of the issue. I am a bow/bow nightblade. Super not meta pick. And i have destroyed many DKs in this current meta. They are actually the class i have the most kills against. 698 kills and 468 deaths against DKs. I die the most from other nightblades at 480 deaths.

It mostly comes down to if everyone on your team can pull their own weight. A simple good healer counters all the DKs out there, cuz their burst threshold can only go so far because they also need to have some tank in their kit.

DK is def annoying right now but i personally dont think its as insane as everyone is saying. What is annoying is what they can accomplish without much effort, as opposed to other classes that have to juggle much more to do what they do. A DK leap for example, for how cheap it is, does so many things when including passives and does so much damage just from a button press. So, I do think they need some things tuned down a bit. But its not as insane as everyone is saying. But it sure does feel that way because they are everywhere. So 80% of your deaths are from a leap.

SundarahFr3akinrican · March 31

Palumtra wrote: »

They need to separate PvE from PvP.
ie. certain skills/ passives / sets should behave differently in PvP
Right now whenever I see those dudes dueling in cities (both above 2k CP usually) and they just one tapping each other from half health.....that doesnt look like fun at all to me.

i disagree. I like that there is gear for PvP i can do a dungeon for that some people might not try and could potentially be good. They can have a gamemode like that if they want but i dont want it. When i PvP im playing the entirity of eso to be the best. And i like that.

If it was separated, why not just play a fighter game at that point which has better connection and ping/performance

Lapin_Logic · March 31

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

You are pretty bad at balancing stuff for PVP...
Why overtune DK? Why do you have to stir things up so much every patch? Why not try to improve the game steadily to make it the best it can be. You make some players happy for a while with the "new toys" but you *** off so many more.

Myself and others have tried to reach out to you with feedback over the years but it always seem to fall on deaf ears.

"Don't worry guys, we will make the other classes match... in 3 to 6 months time"

bmnoble · April 1

Games over 12 years old, with these class refreshes they are basically restarting balancing from scratch once again, until all the classes are finished being overhauled, any balance is going to be a long way off, where going to go through each and every class having their moment in the sun.

Vaqual · April 1

What matters is the margin of imbalance and the speed at which issues are addressed. They just can't leave broken systems like Crit Resist nearly unattended, after flooding the game with broken Crit Damage stacking options. They can't arbitrarily give one class resource recoveries that go into the tens of thousands from single button presses. There are lots of issues, but not all are equally pressing. The topic is complex and there are valid perspectives, but also a lot of bias and genuine lack of experience in the mix. There will always be issues, but they should at least acknowledge stuff quickly, provide their reasoning and justification, and see if those can withstand the criticism - or take action if they do not. U50 PTS will show how they handle the live server feedback (+PTS leftovers) from U49, and if they can keep up their new communication redemption arc.

moderatelyfatman · April 1

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

You are pretty bad at balancing stuff for PVP...
Why overtune DK? Why do you have to stir things up so much every patch? Why not try to improve the game steadily to make it the best it can be. You make some players happy for a while with the "new toys" but you *** off so many more.

Myself and others have tried to reach out to you with feedback over the years but it always seem to fall on deaf ears.

It's been 12 years so I'm sure they'll fix it any day now.