The truth of the matter is that ESO started off with a more realistic atmosphere. It is not unreasonable for players to not want to see it changed into a circus sideshow.

The mounts and recalls were bad enough but now it's spilled into our skills. Why and what is next?

Will players start glowing as we walk?
Will we explode in flashes of light when we open our bags?

Where will this stop?

Lugaldu wrote: »

Well, if everything's already been done and you've seen it all, then you can only attract attention with the most unusual things... I guess.

Nothing can beat the Flubber Bear:

twisttop138 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

I can totally understand the dislike, though it doesn't bother me at all. I did like the understated speeders of swtor though the plain green czerka speeder was my fav along with the rancor so I get enjoying not flashy stuff. I think, though, it would be foolish to assume that ZOS doesn't have a team whose main focus is what sells, who buys it and why. Along with what tactics lead to the most sales but that's a different topic. I would think that your answer lies there. They keep making that stuff because it sells gamble boxes.

This feels a bit like a cafe promoting vodka-shot happy hours. The regulars will only tolerate so much before you are left with the boozers. Yes you can sell to both, you can try to strike a balance, but more likely than not you end up running neither a romantic cafe nor a lively bar.
For me ESOs main appeal was that it was decidedly not anime-styled or adjacent to that. I think people who want the game to go more in this direction have more than enough options.
Saying that the sales justify the art direction would imply that their subdued stuff wouldn't sell comparably, but there is no indication for that.
This flashy stuff is in my eyes just displaying a lack of creativity, adding just enough fire to the mount to not give re-color vibes won't fool me.
Whenever I get such "rare" items from crates unlocked I am just disappointed that I can't cash them out for gems immediately.

Your analogy implies that you and others who dislike a certain type of thing are the regulars who are playing the game correctly. Therefore those who like flashy things are passersby who are playing incorrectly and what they like is going to ruin the game. I would say you ate wildly incorrect. I have no dog in the fight but that blatant us vs them, the way I play is the majority and should be listened to stuff is BS. They make many varied things. If people didn't want it, they wouldn't sell it. Full stop. I also never implied that plain stuff wouldn't sell. There's tons of it and it sells well I'm sure. I have a metric ton of plain jane mounts and pets that don't do anything crazy. I would actually say they're in the majority of stuff sold and the top tier of things are the flashy stuff. In the end though, one thing to keep in mind. Zos exists to make money, they know what makes money so if you keep seeing different kinds of things on offer, it's probably because people buy it. Be that a regular old nix ox, a personal favorite of mine, or an exploding into existence with purple whatevers cat that radiates cosmic glow. Both things have a place here, you are not playing the game correct and others incorrect.

No I am not implying that there is a correct vs incorrect. I am just saying that there is a tipping point where catering too much to one customer segment creates an unappealing environment for other customers. You are entitled to have a "there is a place for everything"-mindset, but if the game starts to annoy me more than it entertains, I will not spend anymore money on it. I have left GW2 several years ago for exactly this reason, when the Infusion and Legendary particle stuff kicked into full gear. I understand that many players still enjoy that game. It simply isn't for me. ESO was much more aligned with my idea of visual coherence and aesthetics. So of course I'd like to make a case against needlessly spoiling the product for a quick buck. They could also totally sell maid-outfits and cat-ears, but they won't see any of my money anymore. That is all I am saying.

That whole correct or incorrect spin comes from you.

Vaqual wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

I can totally understand the dislike, though it doesn't bother me at all. I did like the understated speeders of swtor though the plain green czerka speeder was my fav along with the rancor so I get enjoying not flashy stuff. I think, though, it would be foolish to assume that ZOS doesn't have a team whose main focus is what sells, who buys it and why. Along with what tactics lead to the most sales but that's a different topic. I would think that your answer lies there. They keep making that stuff because it sells gamble boxes.

This feels a bit like a cafe promoting vodka-shot happy hours. The regulars will only tolerate so much before you are left with the boozers. Yes you can sell to both, you can try to strike a balance, but more likely than not you end up running neither a romantic cafe nor a lively bar.
For me ESOs main appeal was that it was decidedly not anime-styled or adjacent to that. I think people who want the game to go more in this direction have more than enough options.
Saying that the sales justify the art direction would imply that their subdued stuff wouldn't sell comparably, but there is no indication for that.
This flashy stuff is in my eyes just displaying a lack of creativity, adding just enough fire to the mount to not give re-color vibes won't fool me.
Whenever I get such "rare" items from crates unlocked I am just disappointed that I can't cash them out for gems immediately.

Your analogy implies that you and others who dislike a certain type of thing are the regulars who are playing the game correctly. Therefore those who like flashy things are passersby who are playing incorrectly and what they like is going to ruin the game. I would say you ate wildly incorrect. I have no dog in the fight but that blatant us vs them, the way I play is the majority and should be listened to stuff is BS. They make many varied things. If people didn't want it, they wouldn't sell it. Full stop. I also never implied that plain stuff wouldn't sell. There's tons of it and it sells well I'm sure. I have a metric ton of plain jane mounts and pets that don't do anything crazy. I would actually say they're in the majority of stuff sold and the top tier of things are the flashy stuff. In the end though, one thing to keep in mind. Zos exists to make money, they know what makes money so if you keep seeing different kinds of things on offer, it's probably because people buy it. Be that a regular old nix ox, a personal favorite of mine, or an exploding into existence with purple whatevers cat that radiates cosmic glow. Both things have a place here, you are not playing the game correct and others incorrect.

No I am not implying that there is a correct vs incorrect. I am just saying that there is a tipping point where catering too much to one customer segment creates an unappealing environment for other customers. You are entitled to have a "there is a place for everything"-mindset, but if the game starts to annoy me more than it entertains, I will not spend anymore money on it. I have left GW2 several years ago for exactly this reason, when the Infusion and Legendary particle stuff kicked into full gear. I understand that many players still enjoy that game. It simply isn't for me. ESO was much more aligned with my idea of visual coherence and aesthetics. So of course I'd like to make a case against needlessly spoiling the product for a quick buck. They could also totally sell maid-outfits and cat-ears, but they won't see any of my money anymore. That is all I am saying.

That whole correct or incorrect spin comes from you.

Maybe I read into it more then you meant. If so, mea culpa. You are correct that there is a tipping point, catering too much to one type of player but I don't think flashiness is taken into account in that equation. It's completely fair to say that if they do too much of something, then they won't see any more of your money. I would sincerely hope we all have that line. I know if they stopped making trials and dungeons, I would feel the same. 2025 and what's come of it got close. So I get it. All I'm trying to say is that ZOS 100% tracks this stuff. They only will sell what people will buy. There is so much stuff I see and think, who's that for? Or I see something or someone who looks ridiculous. But that's not for me to decide.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The truth of the matter is that ESO started off with a more realistic atmosphere. It is not unreasonable for players to not want to see it changed into a circus sideshow.

The mounts and recalls were bad enough but now it's spilled into our skills. Why and what is next?

Will players start glowing as we walk?
Will we explode in flashes of light when we open our bags?

Where will this stop?

When players stop paying for it. Thats the cold hard truth to it.

Right, I was going to basically say this. The answer to the question posed in the OP comes down to either a) there's actual data showing that these "flashier" items sell well; or b) someone who works at zos and makes decisions there likes flashier items and believes that they sell well; or c) likely some of both.

It's fine to dislike them and to ask for them to be toned down, but obviously there are people who do like them and are purchasing them, and they're not doing anything wrong. I find a few mounts to be over the top, but generally I'm not bothered by it, personally, and some of my characters even use "flashy" mounts if it fits their theme well.

I'm glad zos is working on some settings to town down some of the visual effects for people who are bothered by them, and I hope it provides an adequate solution or, if not, that they follow through with the idea until it offers an adequate solution.

But it's an online game in a shared space with thousands of people with different likes and opinions, one "side" isn't "correct" and zos is likely to continue trying to sell new things that stand out, and have appeal, and *sell*. That's just how it is.

twisttop138 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

I can totally understand the dislike, though it doesn't bother me at all. I did like the understated speeders of swtor though the plain green czerka speeder was my fav along with the rancor so I get enjoying not flashy stuff. I think, though, it would be foolish to assume that ZOS doesn't have a team whose main focus is what sells, who buys it and why. Along with what tactics lead to the most sales but that's a different topic. I would think that your answer lies there. They keep making that stuff because it sells gamble boxes.

This feels a bit like a cafe promoting vodka-shot happy hours. The regulars will only tolerate so much before you are left with the boozers. Yes you can sell to both, you can try to strike a balance, but more likely than not you end up running neither a romantic cafe nor a lively bar.
For me ESOs main appeal was that it was decidedly not anime-styled or adjacent to that. I think people who want the game to go more in this direction have more than enough options.
Saying that the sales justify the art direction would imply that their subdued stuff wouldn't sell comparably, but there is no indication for that.
This flashy stuff is in my eyes just displaying a lack of creativity, adding just enough fire to the mount to not give re-color vibes won't fool me.
Whenever I get such "rare" items from crates unlocked I am just disappointed that I can't cash them out for gems immediately.

Your analogy implies that you and others who dislike a certain type of thing are the regulars who are playing the game correctly. Therefore those who like flashy things are passersby who are playing incorrectly and what they like is going to ruin the game. I would say you ate wildly incorrect. I have no dog in the fight but that blatant us vs them, the way I play is the majority and should be listened to stuff is BS. They make many varied things. If people didn't want it, they wouldn't sell it. Full stop. I also never implied that plain stuff wouldn't sell. There's tons of it and it sells well I'm sure. I have a metric ton of plain jane mounts and pets that don't do anything crazy. I would actually say they're in the majority of stuff sold and the top tier of things are the flashy stuff. In the end though, one thing to keep in mind. Zos exists to make money, they know what makes money so if you keep seeing different kinds of things on offer, it's probably because people buy it. Be that a regular old nix ox, a personal favorite of mine, or an exploding into existence with purple whatevers cat that radiates cosmic glow. Both things have a place here, you are not playing the game correct and others incorrect.

No I am not implying that there is a correct vs incorrect. I am just saying that there is a tipping point where catering too much to one customer segment creates an unappealing environment for other customers. You are entitled to have a "there is a place for everything"-mindset, but if the game starts to annoy me more than it entertains, I will not spend anymore money on it. I have left GW2 several years ago for exactly this reason, when the Infusion and Legendary particle stuff kicked into full gear. I understand that many players still enjoy that game. It simply isn't for me. ESO was much more aligned with my idea of visual coherence and aesthetics. So of course I'd like to make a case against needlessly spoiling the product for a quick buck. They could also totally sell maid-outfits and cat-ears, but they won't see any of my money anymore. That is all I am saying.

That whole correct or incorrect spin comes from you.

Maybe I read into it more then you meant. If so, mea culpa. You are correct that there is a tipping point, catering too much to one type of player but I don't think flashiness is taken into account in that equation. It's completely fair to say that if they do too much of something, then they won't see any more of your money. I would sincerely hope we all have that line. I know if they stopped making trials and dungeons, I would feel the same. 2025 and what's come of it got close. So I get it. All I'm trying to say is that ZOS 100% tracks this stuff. They only will sell what people will buy. There is so much stuff I see and think, who's that for? Or I see something or someone who looks ridiculous. But that's not for me to decide.

Tracking "missed revenue" is sadly not nearly as easy as checking some sales figures, so this will by and large remain a matter of designer intuition.

Personal taste aside, can we agree that there's something wrong with design if cosmetic effects without a meaning are so flashy that it actually sometimes impedes playing the actual game content the way it was designed? With that I mean not being able to see anything in fights, including not seeing visual indicators that do have a meaning (enchantments, area effects, etc)? Or not being able to follow story content immersively because there are loud explosions all the time?

Honestly, the more I think about it, the sadder it gets. Even if we just look at the narrative/atmosphere/immersion aspects: Logging in 10 years ago meant experiencing Tamriel and its different cultures and regions, immersing oneself in this world. Of course there was the occasional very weirdly dressed player character with some silly name, but that was easy to ignore. And now, you can't really quest anymore (or at least not shortly after a content release or event begin during the main times) without being surrounded by frost trolls on exploding neon horses whose summoning effects obscure the whole screen, or some soulrazer knight disappearing in a mini dolmen right on top of the quest giver character, in a loud noise that makes it impossible to hear the quest's ending dialogue (and I'm not exaggerating here, playing the New Life festival quests in the evening was exactly like that - you couldn't see quest npcs, you couldn't see some little animated scene they were doing, you could barely hear them because of loud dolmen teleport sounds every few moments). Yes, I know, we got the dialogue replay function now, probably exactly because of such situations (so it feels basically like a fix for a self-induced problem). Sadly, immersion can't just be immediately restored by the click of a button.

You can see people in a glass atronach polymorphs before even setting a foot into the West Weald (completely taking away the surprise for people who haven't played the Ithelia story yet); new players most likely see a mini Molag Bal being followed by an even smaller Molag Bal pet, riding on who knows what, before even starting the main story. How does this still have meaning? How can people still immerse? Eveything's trivialized. I feel sorry for the lore- and story-focused people starting to play ESO now, as they'll never experience how much more immersive exploring Tamriel felt like in ESO's earlier years. It meant a lot. Now it's destroyed. (Then again, people who try out ESO now because they love TES might turn around and leave anyway as soon as they see the constant flashes and explosions.)

A visual refresh, or adding new cosmetics, can be very well done without making everything a circus. And designing new things in a way that honors the original style and atmosphere doesn't mean it needs to be boring, either. When it comes to the animation refresh, they could have just focused on more fluid animations, clearer textures. Or changing simpler low-resolution particle effects to finer, more realistic ones, for example. Which might even tone it down visually, but it if still feels more realistic and immersive, that's surely not a problem.

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Well, if everything's already been done and you've seen it all, then you can only attract attention with the most unusual things... I guess.

Nothing can beat the Flubber Bear:

Space blob mount is so beyond Flubber Bear that it doesn't even bother rendering an outline:

Funny...I hadn't noticed...

AScarlato wrote: »

My issue is that it feels they keep pushing the boundaries of tasteful and sensible cosmetics.

I understand people who joined ESO for an Elder Scrolls experience, which to me has always been somewhere in between low and high fantasy and more realistic settings, given most of the population tends to be rather mundane mortals with minor magic and enchantments. But ESO today is over the top.

Take mounts for example. At first the stables had basic horses. Fine. Then there are other animals for mounts based on specific cultures. Okay sounds good.

Then they got flashy barding. Okay.

Then they started being ghosts or their hooves/manes glowed. Now they literally explode as you summon them or press spacebar.

The standard for eye-catching keeps being moved to the point of annoyance and absurdity. Basic glowing hooves, where once wonderous, are now mundane. Now they have to do more to stand out, and more still. I have a hard time believing what we have today should even exist in ES lore, let alone be so commonplace.

Just my thoughts. I know this makes them money, so what can we do?

Well, we could point out that they might make even more money if they didn't keep taking the game in directions that resulted in reductions in player retention.

Sigh, I remember the days before games got all flashy with over-the-top exploding flash-bang effects and lack of realism…



Those were the days!

SilverBride wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Why do we have flashy effects?
probably because zos likes it and thinks it is a good way to present magic. not very complicated i think.

Players don't all like it. If they did there wouldn't be a need to give players a way to turn them off. And why does a 2H weapon need magic? It's a melee weapon. It's damage comes from swinging a strong heavy weapon, not from magic.

LunaFlora wrote: »

And they are not all new.
Templar skills have always been bright and flashy.

I play a Templar and my skills are not bright and flashy. If they were over the top, like so many are now, I wouldn't play her.

LunaFlora wrote: »

Spindleclutch's spider boss flashes, Hardmode scroll flashes, and Aetherian Archive's portal flashes are all also very old.
i am glad we will be getting options for those effects, new and old.

I am referring to player effects in this thread, not enemies. But I hope the option affects those, too.

Why does swinging a 2H sword give you a... damage shield? Sounds pretty magical to me.

Why does a 2H sword... heal you? No realistic explanation for this, either.

Etc.

licenturion wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Also in writing, of course, where things would matter like "What are common themes and problems in Tamriel?", "What do the Tamrielic cultures think about different topics, which different cultural values and beliefs to they have?" or "Which speech style do these cultures have?"

Instead, today's writing feels more like "I like memes! (or "The consumers like memes"?) So let's put memes everywhere!", not taking into consideration at all whether it even fits the depicted world (and it's style and tone) or not. Which honestly does remind me a bit of how some children play; let's say a kid loves Spider Man, then Spider Man must up everywhere else too, and meets He-Man, Sponge Bob, My Little Pony world, and Princess Elsa (or what ever kids might like nowadays, I have no clue). And that's okay - but I want to see more thought about plausibility and world building being put into a fantasy narration for adults, especially one with a very extensive lore background, that many players love for exactly that reason.

It's generally strange by the way that it doesn't feel like there's a big focus on some aspects that made ESO special and that many players loved. Like the more realistic graphics compared to other MMOs, or in terms of writing and lore the different moral choices in quests, or the specific depiction of Tamriel's races, for example. Those were clearly strong and unique points, and I do wonder how ESO would have developed if a focus would have been put on these aspects.

You don’t get that in live service games after they are running for a few years. They need to make money for continued development. So anything goes.

It is not only ESO but literally every live service game I played that is not indie. Sea Of Thieves also started out with their own unique world and lore. Then it went full live service and came the Pirates Of The Caribbean and Money Island crossovers all with their own lore and truckload of cosmetics. Same with Diablo 4. The newest season has a collaboration with Doom, so my fantasy druid can now look like The Slayer. Overwatch this week has skins of Nier, another popular game that is stylistically totally different. And in Call Of Duty everyone runs around in this military shooter as a bunny or a famous rap singer.

What do you expect when Tamriel Tomes and the Bazaar launch? More over the top skins and animations because people don’t spend money on ‘boring things’. While I expect maybe some toggle to tone down some animations, I don’t expect to turn off much, because other players are walking advertisements for battlepass skins.

I said it before here, but if u want a realistic RPG world were you have everything on your control and were things stay consistent you are better of playing single player stuff like Red Dead Redemption, Assassin’s Creed, Kingdom Come Deliverance etc. I also assume Elder Scrolls 6 will be more grounded like the recent remake and Skyrim.

But live service games are just like the real world, constantly evolving and changing, even if you like it or not.

Oh yes lol. When the tome man comes knocking, he's gonna have some wild stuff. The battle pass is gonna need to hook some people right away. They should already have a preview up of all items. But we know for sure there is a mount that is different at night than it is during the day. A first of it's kind. In the pass. A personality. That's a big draw, though iirc it's in the 30 dollar pass. There's gonna have to be much and varied items. Many of them will be flashy and stand out because, again, tomes has to be a success. There's no going back to the chapter model if this fails.

And you make another good point. Flashy will be key because they want players to ask "omg where did you get that skin, mount, costume, motif, recall, furnishing. We just have to look at fallout 76, where many seasons have tons of cool stuff you don't wanna miss. I also forsee Zos doing the same as Bethesda. Crown store catch up bundles of the best missed items. As well as putting anything truly unique and game changing into the bazzar. Another good idea to take from 76.

Forget about realism. The fact is that on release ESO was quite true to the aesthetic of Oblivion or Skyrim. So let's just take that as the benchmark and we can all agree it's a fact that this aesthetic has been thoroughly corrupted by now.