I think for monoclass only when it launches is fine but I do worry that once skill lines have more diversified power that class masteries will be an overcorrection too far. I also want to remind people a lot of rp builds that flavor traditional classes in other games (elementalist, ranger, summoner, etc) are builds that are not currently more powerful than monoclass builds and are not competitive either and will only lose power with the reworks and class masteries. I also have growing concerns that making passives and effects dependent on class are devaluing the power in weapon skill lines and nonclass skill lines.

As I said, it's fine for now, we are in a balance crisis and class rebalancing should take priority but I do hope they understand the combat balance work is far from over when that's done and I hope they at least have this on their longterm radar.

Depends on how powerful they will be and how many will be available in the final version. I think granting a lower amount to a 2/3-classed player would be fine, but that should of course be limited to masteries that belong to the remaining skill lines and probably exclude "generalist" masteries.
There shouldn't be a hard border between pure-classing and subclassing, transitions should be soft and power gaps small.

For now, it should only be available to pure classes. But they should revisit that decision after the class refreshes to ensure that subclassing is still viable.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

For now, it should only be available to pure classes. But they should revisit that decision after the class refreshes to ensure that subclassing is still viable.

In theory, after the refresh is done, they should be able to remove them completely. If they are not able to, then I would argue that, other than the graphics changes, the refresh did not meet the anticipated outcome.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

One of the big things with Masteries is the fact that you are giving up something (versatility) if you are monoclassing. There has to be a tradeoff.

Case in point: I'm a tank. I hate Sucblassing. I chose my Class because I liked it, and I wrote my whole backstory around that Class. That's what feels best to play.
But in trials, particularly HMs, I am literally throwing if I'm playing the way I want.

Tanks are expected to run some combination of Winter's Embrace (for group resolve), Soldier of Apocrypha (for unique armor debuff and a strong self heal), Earthen Heart (for Heat Shock and group Brutality/Sorcery), Draconic Power (for Storm Voice and group Minor Brutality), Bone Tyrant (for ult gen), Daedric Summoning (for group Berserk), among others. If you're in a standard group, that means both tanks are forced to Subclass to be able to get all of those. One tank staying pure means the group is losing a lot, so a Mastery needs to be able to make up for losing all of that.
...and even then, groups will probably say "hey, let's have our Z'enkosh support DPS pureclass to get access to the Mastery so we can still have the tanks be spreadsheet-optimized unholy hybrid builds."

Every "but but but play the way you want!" argument is destroyed by one simple fact: you can't solo a trial, and especially not a trial HM. But now that there are so many benefits to Subclassing, it is practically impossible to find groups who will allow you to play monoclass, especially for support roles. It is literally griefing to show up refusing to play optimized. So your choices are to 1) grief the group and do it anyway, or 2) stick to groups that don't care... which means the groups that struggle through standard vets (because the mid-tier raiders left the game). If you are a good HM-level player who doesn't like to Subclass, you do not have a place in ESO at present.

This simply isn't true. This mentality just allows it to propagate. If more people had a backbone to refuse to join rosters, it would further induce tank shortage and raid leads would be forced to capitulate. It is not "throwing" to play how you want, as long as you actually play well and with serious intent. This notion that you have to be perfectly optimized is a scapegoat for bad raid leading. Every player actually knowing the fight well enough to not need baby-sitting is what secures clears. And this is only done if every member on the team actually takes it seriously which most seemingly do not. If everyone just plays the game, the dps naturally goes up with or without excessive buffs.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

If more people had a backbone to refuse to join rosters

"If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas."

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

It kinda ruins the point of the thing if its accessible when you subclass at all.

Besides, everything i have read has hinted that these passives are a temporary fix and may not be around after all of the classes are done.

What have you read that has hinted at this? It is not my impression, and the dk masteries are of similar power level to the masteries of non reworked classes, so I don't see a reason to expect them to be diminished or eliminated as the rework project continues.

Maybe I am reading into things to much. But to me its all about the timing and phrasing used when describing these mysteries. Comments of while we are working on classes, etc. As well as the timing of them being implemented. To me this reads like a stop gap measure to placate concerns so they have time to address each class.

As I said in another reply. If at the end of the class rebalance process, if class masteries are still needed then outside of the updated graphics, it will have been wasted effort.

I think it could add more variety if true subclassing 2+1 got access to one mastery.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

One of the big things with Masteries is the fact that you are giving up something (versatility) if you are monoclassing. There has to be a tradeoff.

Case in point: I'm a tank. I hate Sucblassing. I chose my Class because I liked it, and I wrote my whole backstory around that Class. That's what feels best to play.
But in trials, particularly HMs, I am literally throwing if I'm playing the way I want.

Tanks are expected to run some combination of Winter's Embrace (for group resolve), Soldier of Apocrypha (for unique armor debuff and a strong self heal), Earthen Heart (for Heat Shock and group Brutality/Sorcery), Draconic Power (for Storm Voice and group Minor Brutality), Bone Tyrant (for ult gen), Daedric Summoning (for group Berserk), among others. If you're in a standard group, that means both tanks are forced to Subclass to be able to get all of those. One tank staying pure means the group is losing a lot, so a Mastery needs to be able to make up for losing all of that.
...and even then, groups will probably say "hey, let's have our Z'enkosh support DPS pureclass to get access to the Mastery so we can still have the tanks be spreadsheet-optimized unholy hybrid builds."

Every "but but but play the way you want!" argument is destroyed by one simple fact: you can't solo a trial, and especially not a trial HM. But now that there are so many benefits to Subclassing, it is practically impossible to find groups who will allow you to play monoclass, especially for support roles. It is literally griefing to show up refusing to play optimized. So your choices are to 1) grief the group and do it anyway, or 2) stick to groups that don't care... which means the groups that struggle through standard vets (because the mid-tier raiders left the game). If you are a good HM-level player who doesn't like to Subclass, you do not have a place in ESO at present.

This simply isn't true. This mentality just allows it to propagate. If more people had a backbone to refuse to join rosters, it would further induce tank shortage and raid leads would be forced to capitulate. It is not "throwing" to play how you want, as long as you actually play well and with serious intent. This notion that you have to be perfectly optimized is a scapegoat for bad raid leading. Every player actually knowing the fight well enough to not need baby-sitting is what secures clears. And this is only done if every member on the team actually takes it seriously which most seemingly do not. If everyone just plays the game, the dps naturally goes up with or without excessive buffs.

I think you missed the point. It's not about good or bad raid leads. It's about respect for my teammates. Knowing that I'm not doing everything to be the best I possibly can sucks to me and I know many others. It doesn't matter how well I know the fights, and yeah I could do them on a pure class whatever, it's about knowing that I can be doing more to get my team to victory. Faster, with less room for error. That extra DPS can be the difference between my fat fingers missing a block or clearing.

To be clear though. I think subclassing was a bungle from the start. Zos released an unfinished system that did to the game the exact thing experienced players said would happen. We've been living with the consequences since. It's no surprise considering the leadership at that time. The big regret is they didn't bin his secret terrible looking generic mmo sooner so we could've gotten the leadership team we have now before subclassing got dropped on us in that stare. Class mastery is a way to make up for this that should've happened before it was ever released. It should, in no way, be used for subclassing.

I’m kind of torn because I can see both sides. It would be a smoother transition between pure and sub class to have it be 2 for pure, 1 for 2 lines base class, 0 for 1 line base class. But unless there’s 2 or more really good passives, it’d just be a matter of choosing the one good passive (like the major heroism/berserk/etc dk one). I think I will agree with the sentiment of having it be pure class to start and after the refreshes, consider making it 1 passive for 2 lines base class.

@tomofhyrule and @Lord_Hev feel like the angel and devil on my shoulder in terms of my thoughts on pure vs subclass balancing LOL. I agree that joining runs whilst pure class feels like straight-up throwing but I have also seen a lot of sentiment against subclassing, even from decent or better players who currently subclass. Certainly enough to fill at least one group if people wanted to.

twisttop138 wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

One of the big things with Masteries is the fact that you are giving up something (versatility) if you are monoclassing. There has to be a tradeoff.

Case in point: I'm a tank. I hate Sucblassing. I chose my Class because I liked it, and I wrote my whole backstory around that Class. That's what feels best to play.
But in trials, particularly HMs, I am literally throwing if I'm playing the way I want.

Tanks are expected to run some combination of Winter's Embrace (for group resolve), Soldier of Apocrypha (for unique armor debuff and a strong self heal), Earthen Heart (for Heat Shock and group Brutality/Sorcery), Draconic Power (for Storm Voice and group Minor Brutality), Bone Tyrant (for ult gen), Daedric Summoning (for group Berserk), among others. If you're in a standard group, that means both tanks are forced to Subclass to be able to get all of those. One tank staying pure means the group is losing a lot, so a Mastery needs to be able to make up for losing all of that.
...and even then, groups will probably say "hey, let's have our Z'enkosh support DPS pureclass to get access to the Mastery so we can still have the tanks be spreadsheet-optimized unholy hybrid builds."

Every "but but but play the way you want!" argument is destroyed by one simple fact: you can't solo a trial, and especially not a trial HM. But now that there are so many benefits to Subclassing, it is practically impossible to find groups who will allow you to play monoclass, especially for support roles. It is literally griefing to show up refusing to play optimized. So your choices are to 1) grief the group and do it anyway, or 2) stick to groups that don't care... which means the groups that struggle through standard vets (because the mid-tier raiders left the game). If you are a good HM-level player who doesn't like to Subclass, you do not have a place in ESO at present.

This simply isn't true. This mentality just allows it to propagate. If more people had a backbone to refuse to join rosters, it would further induce tank shortage and raid leads would be forced to capitulate. It is not "throwing" to play how you want, as long as you actually play well and with serious intent. This notion that you have to be perfectly optimized is a scapegoat for bad raid leading. Every player actually knowing the fight well enough to not need baby-sitting is what secures clears. And this is only done if every member on the team actually takes it seriously which most seemingly do not. If everyone just plays the game, the dps naturally goes up with or without excessive buffs.

I think you missed the point. It's not about good or bad raid leads. It's about respect for my teammates. Knowing that I'm not doing everything to be the best I possibly can sucks to me and I know many others. It doesn't matter how well I know the fights, and yeah I could do them on a pure class whatever, it's about knowing that I can be doing more to get my team to victory. Faster, with less room for error. That extra DPS can be the difference between my fat fingers missing a block or clearing.

To be clear though. I think subclassing was a bungle from the start. Zos released an unfinished system that did to the game the exact thing experienced players said would happen. We've been living with the consequences since. It's no surprise considering the leadership at that time. The big regret is they didn't bin his secret terrible looking generic mmo sooner so we could've gotten the leadership team we have now before subclassing got dropped on us in that stare. Class mastery is a way to make up for this that should've happened before it was ever released. It should, in no way, be used for subclassing.

I respect my teammates by taking my role seriously, whether it be tanking, or dpsing, or healing. And I do it while playing how I want, and ensuring that I'm practiced enough to always be high performant no matter what build I'm in. Just because some people have thrown the "I play how I want" card and then proceed to put zero effort and waste people's time being a detriment to the team does not automatically equate to being optimized meta being a wonder-magic solution.

Instead of dictating how one should play, the raid leads should only consult with logs to ensure the player is actually positioning correctly, their cpm with their build/role, things of that nature. A build/subclassed-lines; all this hyper-meta stuff should be down the checklist, not at the fore-front. Players naturally play better when they actually play how they want to play with the freedom and expression to do so in pursuit of being the highest performant that they can be.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

One of the big things with Masteries is the fact that you are giving up something (versatility) if you are monoclassing. There has to be a tradeoff.

Case in point: I'm a tank. I hate Sucblassing. I chose my Class because I liked it, and I wrote my whole backstory around that Class. That's what feels best to play.
But in trials, particularly HMs, I am literally throwing if I'm playing the way I want.

Tanks are expected to run some combination of Winter's Embrace (for group resolve), Soldier of Apocrypha (for unique armor debuff and a strong self heal), Earthen Heart (for Heat Shock and group Brutality/Sorcery), Draconic Power (for Storm Voice and group Minor Brutality), Bone Tyrant (for ult gen), Daedric Summoning (for group Berserk), among others. If you're in a standard group, that means both tanks are forced to Subclass to be able to get all of those. One tank staying pure means the group is losing a lot, so a Mastery needs to be able to make up for losing all of that.
...and even then, groups will probably say "hey, let's have our Z'enkosh support DPS pureclass to get access to the Mastery so we can still have the tanks be spreadsheet-optimized unholy hybrid builds."

Every "but but but play the way you want!" argument is destroyed by one simple fact: you can't solo a trial, and especially not a trial HM. But now that there are so many benefits to Subclassing, it is practically impossible to find groups who will allow you to play monoclass, especially for support roles. It is literally griefing to show up refusing to play optimized. So your choices are to 1) grief the group and do it anyway, or 2) stick to groups that don't care... which means the groups that struggle through standard vets (because the mid-tier raiders left the game). If you are a good HM-level player who doesn't like to Subclass, you do not have a place in ESO at present.

This simply isn't true. This mentality just allows it to propagate. If more people had a backbone to refuse to join rosters, it would further induce tank shortage and raid leads would be forced to capitulate. It is not "throwing" to play how you want, as long as you actually play well and with serious intent. This notion that you have to be perfectly optimized is a scapegoat for bad raid leading. Every player actually knowing the fight well enough to not need baby-sitting is what secures clears. And this is only done if every member on the team actually takes it seriously which most seemingly do not. If everyone just plays the game, the dps naturally goes up with or without excessive buffs.

You know, I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong.

So prove it. Show me. Post a log of a full HM run of Rockgrove, or Dreadsail, or Sanity's, or really anything post-Kyne's. Post a log showing a pure-DK tank in the current patch. Post a log showing that it is a thing that groups actually do, not just something hypothetical.

Or are you just saying "It's totally possible, it's just nobody ever does it in practice." Which - I know it's possible, because people cleared these HMs (and even the trifectas!) before Subclassing was a thing. But if it isn't done in practice... then is it really possible in a real world run, or only theoretically possible if you could find 11 other theoretical people who theoretically thought the same way and theoretically allowed you to do it?

Thats the catch-22 of my point lol. Getting into those groups is already a gate-kept procedure even though I dwarf "qualifications." I had no issue bringing my off-meta into hm groups before subclassing because the dps ceiling wasn't astronomical, and my builds very regularly out-parsed the meta stuff while also consistently having the least deaths on a log because I know all the fights like clockwork.

And yes, your second point is my point. I'm not actually disagreeing with your main premise I suppose. Just voicing a strong opinion.

However, sitting here and saying "yep, people are gatekeeping and that's bad!" is not going to make it go away.

ESO is currently set up in such a way that gatekeeping is not only expected, it's actively rewarded. As such, players who are intending to do higher-level content will have to submit to that - the three seconds you save in a fight from having an ultra meta setup versus something more fun can often be the difference between a clear and not. I've been there where we had Bahsei down to 0.1% and then a meteor exploded because we couldn't squeeze out that last little bit of damage fast enough, and had we turned to get the meteor, we would have ended up with a third portal with two behemoths.

Before Subclassing was a thing, there were things ESO could have done to try to reduce gatekeeping: One, balance everything properly and not make Fatecarver the best option by a country mile. But two, the Undaunted passives are basically forgotten - there's the one for giving you stats for wearing different armor weights, which since the armor changes has really not gotten much use. Imagine if that passive instead gave stats (or even damage/resists/etc.) based on the number of different Classes in group? That would then give a benefit to not stacking the entire group with the same parse monkeys.

This is the reason I like Dungeons so much better. Since you have only 4 people, you physically can't source everything. It's a lot more intimate, and you know the people you prog with a lot better. They trust you more to be able to do your role and do it well. And I cleared every 4-man trifecta in the game on a pure DK tank, even the two that came out after Subclassing was a thing. Because my group knows I play better when I play a build I enjoy, so it worked.

Unfortunately, we're not getting any Dungeons this year, but we are getting a Trial. Which is another case of rewarding gatekeeping since there's literally no downside to playing the mathematically most optimized thing for a bunch of players who you may or may not know as well.

I came here to play Elder Scrolls Online. Not Excel Spreadsheets Online. But since ESO is completely rewarding gatekeeping, it will keep happening, no matter how many people don't like it.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

One of the big things with Masteries is the fact that you are giving up something (versatility) if you are monoclassing. There has to be a tradeoff.

Case in point: I'm a tank. I hate Sucblassing. I chose my Class because I liked it, and I wrote my whole backstory around that Class. That's what feels best to play.
But in trials, particularly HMs, I am literally throwing if I'm playing the way I want.

Tanks are expected to run some combination of Winter's Embrace (for group resolve), Soldier of Apocrypha (for unique armor debuff and a strong self heal), Earthen Heart (for Heat Shock and group Brutality/Sorcery), Draconic Power (for Storm Voice and group Minor Brutality), Bone Tyrant (for ult gen), Daedric Summoning (for group Berserk), among others. If you're in a standard group, that means both tanks are forced to Subclass to be able to get all of those. One tank staying pure means the group is losing a lot, so a Mastery needs to be able to make up for losing all of that.
...and even then, groups will probably say "hey, let's have our Z'enkosh support DPS pureclass to get access to the Mastery so we can still have the tanks be spreadsheet-optimized unholy hybrid builds."

Every "but but but play the way you want!" argument is destroyed by one simple fact: you can't solo a trial, and especially not a trial HM. But now that there are so many benefits to Subclassing, it is practically impossible to find groups who will allow you to play monoclass, especially for support roles. It is literally griefing to show up refusing to play optimized. So your choices are to 1) grief the group and do it anyway, or 2) stick to groups that don't care... which means the groups that struggle through standard vets (because the mid-tier raiders left the game). If you are a good HM-level player who doesn't like to Subclass, you do not have a place in ESO at present.

This simply isn't true. This mentality just allows it to propagate. If more people had a backbone to refuse to join rosters, it would further induce tank shortage and raid leads would be forced to capitulate. It is not "throwing" to play how you want, as long as you actually play well and with serious intent. This notion that you have to be perfectly optimized is a scapegoat for bad raid leading. Every player actually knowing the fight well enough to not need baby-sitting is what secures clears. And this is only done if every member on the team actually takes it seriously which most seemingly do not. If everyone just plays the game, the dps naturally goes up with or without excessive buffs.

You know, I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong.

So prove it. Show me. Post a log of a full HM run of Rockgrove, or Dreadsail, or Sanity's, or really anything post-Kyne's. Post a log showing a pure-DK tank in the current patch. Post a log showing that it is a thing that groups actually do, not just something hypothetical.

Or are you just saying "It's totally possible, it's just nobody ever does it in practice." Which - I know it's possible, because people cleared these HMs (and even the trifectas!) before Subclassing was a thing. But if it isn't done in practice... then is it really possible in a real world run, or only theoretically possible if you could find 11 other theoretical people who theoretically thought the same way and theoretically allowed you to do it?

Thats the catch-22 of my point lol. Getting into those groups is already a gate-kept procedure even though I dwarf "qualifications." I had no issue bringing my off-meta into hm groups before subclassing because the dps ceiling wasn't astronomical, and my builds very regularly out-parsed the meta stuff while also consistently having the least deaths on a log because I know all the fights like clockwork.

And yes, your second point is my point. I'm not actually disagreeing with your main premise I suppose. Just voicing a strong opinion.

However, sitting here and saying "yep, people are gatekeeping and that's bad!" is not going to make it go away.

Someone has to be the one to stand up and try to make a pure class HM run. I’ve considered it, but I’m not good at comping and I’m an inexperienced raid lead. That said, I’ve seen a few people lately also consider pure class trials. I think we can do it and certainly should try. If you’re on PC/NA and interested, let me know (my forum account is on private, so you’ll have to go to the mail and type in my username to mail me) and I’ll see what I can do…

imo this system is coming in to late this system should of been before scribing so that mastery scripts could of worked into the mastery system as an mastery skill and gave true meaning to pure class MASTERY you aint an master of anything if your 1/3 something else

I would say it depends on how many we get. But giving half as many to classes that use 1 subclass, and none to ones that use 2 subclasses, does make some kind of sense.