Isn't this a bit too much?

lnigo · March 13

Not much of a numbers guy, and these numbers in particular could be considered low in others' perspectives, but I feel like this is way too much damage. Let's also consider these numbers don't reflect crit modifiers or dmg taken debuffs. This is without leap's buff as well.

I consider this a hybrid sustain-damage skill, and it's doing damage equivalent to deep fissure/frag/blastbones/crux-consuming tentacle/the old lava whip, on top of (potentially) restoring more resources than siphoning attacks.

Just...absolutely bogus numbers. Equivalent to spectral bow with less counterplay.

Imagine having 3+ players (not so uncommon) beating on you with these on top of procs, other hard hitting sub-classed abilities (not even necessary), healing debuffs, CC spam, etc. It's difficult to handle.

Vaqual · March 14

No

Soul of Flames damage is quite close to the old Deep Breath Tooltip, so I think the damage portion is fine for a delayed burst. Granted the overall value potential of the ability is far beyond reason, but that is a topic I tried to discuss several times and only a couple people cared.

Whip is a different story though. The change to the stacking economy makes it actually extremely easy to use. The duration nerf on the stacks is basically not noticeable, while the damage increase is very high. I think there will be a short phase were people are celebrating this, followed by a long phase of annoyed faces. But I don't think realistically that there will be a change soon. The last couple weeks on the forums have shown that people aren't really willing to make sensible concessions for sustainable balancing, as long as "the other reworks" are still looming, as potential justification for broken stuff.

For this reason I vote no, because this community loves too choose the way of pain.

YandereGirlfriend · March 14

No

lnigo wrote: »

Not much of a numbers guy, and these numbers in particular could be considered low in others' perspectives, but I feel like this is way too much damage. Let's also consider these numbers don't reflect crit modifiers or dmg taken debuffs. This is without leap's buff as well.

I consider this a hybrid sustain-damage skill, and it's doing damage equivalent to deep fissure/frag/blastbones/crux-consuming tentacle/the old lava whip, on top of (potentially) restoring more resources than siphoning attacks.

Just...absolutely bogus numbers. Equivalent to spectral bow with less counterplay.

Imagine having 3+ players (not so uncommon) beating on you with these on top of procs, other hard hitting sub-classed abilities (not even necessary), healing debuffs, CC spam, etc. It's difficult to handle.

What? The tuning of the skill is nowhere near Bowproc. It's in between the first and second hit of Shalks.

Vaqual wrote: »

Soul of Flames damage is quite close to the old Deep Breath Tooltip, so I think the damage portion is fine for a delayed burst. Granted the overall value potential of the ability is far beyond reason, but that is a topic I tried to discuss several times and only a couple people cared.

Whip is a different story though. The change to the stacking economy makes it actually extremely easy to use. The duration nerf on the stacks is basically not noticeable, while the damage increase is very high. I think there will be a short phase were people are celebrating this, followed by a long phase of annoyed faces. But I don't think realistically that there will be a change soon. The last couple weeks on the forums have shown that people aren't really willing to make sensible concessions for sustainable balancing, as long as "the other reworks" are still looming, as potential justification for broken stuff.

For this reason I vote no, because this community loves too choose the way of pain.

Are you as vocal about calling for nerfs to Bowproc? If not, why not. From my casual observation, there seem to be a lot of jilted NB mains angry that another class is getting in on their single-target nuke action.

xylena · March 14

No

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Are you as vocal about calling for nerfs to Bowproc? If not, why not. From my casual observation, there seem to be a lot of jilted NB mains angry that another class is getting in on their single-target nuke action.

Yeah I'm a bit confused why people are calling for blood over DK when the meta has been a horrid one shot fest for year(s) now? People are cool with one shots enabled by putrid garbage like Rushing Agony, Null Arca, Monomyth, and Assassination, but freak out over DK class skills?

Wup_sa · March 14

No

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Are you as vocal about calling for nerfs to Bowproc? If not, why not. From my casual observation, there seem to be a lot of jilted NB mains angry that another class is getting in on their single-target nuke action.

Yeah I'm a bit confused why people are calling for blood over DK when the meta has been a horrid one shot fest for year(s) now? People are cool with one shots enabled by putrid garbage like Rushing Agony, Null Arca, Monomyth, and Assassination, but freak out over DK class skills?

Notice how everytime DK has gotten buffed, people cry over the smallest things about the class. People just don't like DK it seems.

lnigo · March 14

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

lnigo wrote: »

Not much of a numbers guy, and these numbers in particular could be considered low in others' perspectives, but I feel like this is way too much damage. Let's also consider these numbers don't reflect crit modifiers or dmg taken debuffs. This is without leap's buff as well.

I consider this a hybrid sustain-damage skill, and it's doing damage equivalent to deep fissure/frag/blastbones/crux-consuming tentacle/the old lava whip, on top of (potentially) restoring more resources than siphoning attacks.

Just...absolutely bogus numbers. Equivalent to spectral bow with less counterplay.

Imagine having 3+ players (not so uncommon) beating on you with these on top of procs, other hard hitting sub-classed abilities (not even necessary), healing debuffs, CC spam, etc. It's difficult to handle.

What? The tuning of the skill is nowhere near Bowproc. It's in between the first and second hit of Shalks.

Vaqual wrote: »

Soul of Flames damage is quite close to the old Deep Breath Tooltip, so I think the damage portion is fine for a delayed burst. Granted the overall value potential of the ability is far beyond reason, but that is a topic I tried to discuss several times and only a couple people cared.

Whip is a different story though. The change to the stacking economy makes it actually extremely easy to use. The duration nerf on the stacks is basically not noticeable, while the damage increase is very high. I think there will be a short phase were people are celebrating this, followed by a long phase of annoyed faces. But I don't think realistically that there will be a change soon. The last couple weeks on the forums have shown that people aren't really willing to make sensible concessions for sustainable balancing, as long as "the other reworks" are still looming, as potential justification for broken stuff.

For this reason I vote no, because this community loves too choose the way of pain.

Are you as vocal about calling for nerfs to Bowproc? If not, why not. From my casual observation, there seem to be a lot of jilted NB mains angry that another class is getting in on their single-target nuke action.

The Soul of Flames damage isn't inherently "too much." It's the coupling of its damage potential and its resource return. It is without question the best utility skill in the game: high (dual) resource return, interrupt, and AoE delayed burst. It can be utilized in (especially) tanking, healing, and dps for its resource return, which if compared to other resource-returning skills (equilibrium, dark exchange, siphoning strikes), all have drawbacks (health cost + healing reduction, bashable channel, health cost, respectively), which Soul of Flame does not. Plus, it deals damage equivalent to "the first and second hit of shalks" (since you compared it by name), blastbones, crystal frag, the old whip, or crux-consuming tentacle (if even that). It's a bit farfetched for someone to look at this skill and say "hmm, this is good. Yes."

BTW, I was comparing the new whip to spectral bow. I've always stated spectral bow is over-tuned.

I understand that the classes are being reworked and most old DK mains are excited, truly I'm happy for it. But eventually all of the classes will be reworked, and if DK is the standard (pun intended) I am a bit anxious to see what's in store for the others.

Vaqual · March 14

No

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

lnigo wrote: »

Not much of a numbers guy, and these numbers in particular could be considered low in others' perspectives, but I feel like this is way too much damage. Let's also consider these numbers don't reflect crit modifiers or dmg taken debuffs. This is without leap's buff as well.

I consider this a hybrid sustain-damage skill, and it's doing damage equivalent to deep fissure/frag/blastbones/crux-consuming tentacle/the old lava whip, on top of (potentially) restoring more resources than siphoning attacks.

Just...absolutely bogus numbers. Equivalent to spectral bow with less counterplay.

Imagine having 3+ players (not so uncommon) beating on you with these on top of procs, other hard hitting sub-classed abilities (not even necessary), healing debuffs, CC spam, etc. It's difficult to handle.

What? The tuning of the skill is nowhere near Bowproc. It's in between the first and second hit of Shalks.

Vaqual wrote: »

Soul of Flames damage is quite close to the old Deep Breath Tooltip, so I think the damage portion is fine for a delayed burst. Granted the overall value potential of the ability is far beyond reason, but that is a topic I tried to discuss several times and only a couple people cared.

Whip is a different story though. The change to the stacking economy makes it actually extremely easy to use. The duration nerf on the stacks is basically not noticeable, while the damage increase is very high. I think there will be a short phase were people are celebrating this, followed by a long phase of annoyed faces. But I don't think realistically that there will be a change soon. The last couple weeks on the forums have shown that people aren't really willing to make sensible concessions for sustainable balancing, as long as "the other reworks" are still looming, as potential justification for broken stuff.

For this reason I vote no, because this community loves too choose the way of pain.

Are you as vocal about calling for nerfs to Bowproc? If not, why not. From my casual observation, there seem to be a lot of jilted NB mains angry that another class is getting in on their single-target nuke action.

Nice projection. Let me assure you that I don't give a hoot whether Specbow lives or dies. In fact yes, I have criticised it many times over the last few years as the main reason for the offensive imbalances in the NB kit. Removing the passive WD was a good change, but the increase to the stack cap should not have allowed for chambering a second shot. If you choose to see envy in these discussions there is probably little anyone can do, since it doesn't get much more objective than numbers.

Lord_Hev · March 14

No

Those tooltips look really juiced up. If only eso had some form of soft-caps, a lot of this outlandish over-the-top damage could be reeled in.

Major_Mangle · March 14

Yes

I'd say generally speaking, everything is a bit too over the top (speaking about the game and classes in general). The game needs a stat squish across the board, both in PvP and PvE. Never-ending power creep without proper balance checks is rarely a good thing.

YandereGirlfriend · March 14

No

Vaqual wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

lnigo wrote: »

Not much of a numbers guy, and these numbers in particular could be considered low in others' perspectives, but I feel like this is way too much damage. Let's also consider these numbers don't reflect crit modifiers or dmg taken debuffs. This is without leap's buff as well.

I consider this a hybrid sustain-damage skill, and it's doing damage equivalent to deep fissure/frag/blastbones/crux-consuming tentacle/the old lava whip, on top of (potentially) restoring more resources than siphoning attacks.

Just...absolutely bogus numbers. Equivalent to spectral bow with less counterplay.

Imagine having 3+ players (not so uncommon) beating on you with these on top of procs, other hard hitting sub-classed abilities (not even necessary), healing debuffs, CC spam, etc. It's difficult to handle.

What? The tuning of the skill is nowhere near Bowproc. It's in between the first and second hit of Shalks.

Vaqual wrote: »

Soul of Flames damage is quite close to the old Deep Breath Tooltip, so I think the damage portion is fine for a delayed burst. Granted the overall value potential of the ability is far beyond reason, but that is a topic I tried to discuss several times and only a couple people cared.

Whip is a different story though. The change to the stacking economy makes it actually extremely easy to use. The duration nerf on the stacks is basically not noticeable, while the damage increase is very high. I think there will be a short phase were people are celebrating this, followed by a long phase of annoyed faces. But I don't think realistically that there will be a change soon. The last couple weeks on the forums have shown that people aren't really willing to make sensible concessions for sustainable balancing, as long as "the other reworks" are still looming, as potential justification for broken stuff.

For this reason I vote no, because this community loves too choose the way of pain.

Are you as vocal about calling for nerfs to Bowproc? If not, why not. From my casual observation, there seem to be a lot of jilted NB mains angry that another class is getting in on their single-target nuke action.

Nice projection. Let me assure you that I don't give a hoot whether Specbow lives or dies. In fact yes, I have criticised it many times over the last few years as the main reason for the offensive imbalances in the NB kit. Removing the passive WD was a good change, but the increase to the stack cap should not have allowed for chambering a second shot. If you choose to see envy in these discussions there is probably little anyone can do, since it doesn't get much more objective than numbers.

Well, if that is true then I applaud your consistency. Unfortunately, that is rare these days. There are many, "Metabuild Bowprocs for me but not for thee..." types on the forum and in-game since the rework.

xylena · March 14

No

lnigo wrote: »

It's the coupling of its damage potential and its resource return.

The damage potential is a direct consequence of busted sets/stats. Get rid of Monomyth, jack up innate crit resist, whatever, no point nerfing DK just to return to animal assassin hell.

Zama666 · March 14

Yes

Why can't my Templar do damage like that?
(find, another build, got it)

Turtle_Bot · March 15

Wup_sa wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Are you as vocal about calling for nerfs to Bowproc? If not, why not. From my casual observation, there seem to be a lot of jilted NB mains angry that another class is getting in on their single-target nuke action.

Yeah I'm a bit confused why people are calling for blood over DK when the meta has been a horrid one shot fest for year(s) now? People are cool with one shots enabled by putrid garbage like Rushing Agony, Null Arca, Monomyth, and Assassination, but freak out over DK class skills?

Notice how everytime DK has gotten buffed, people cry over the smallest things about the class. People just don't like DK it seems.

Not just DK, but ANY class that is not specifically NB gets even the smallest of improvements and the forums light up like a cursed Christmas tree with complaints from jilted NB mains that another class can now compete with them PvP.

IV_Deity · March 15

No

No. Let the devs cook.

IV_Deity · March 15

No

Zama666 wrote: »

Why can't my Templar do damage like that?
(find, another build, got it)

Wait for the class refresh. That's the point of all this.

Zodiarkslayer · March 15

No

I voted NO after realising this is about PvP.

ADarklore · March 15

No

Zama666 wrote: »

Why can't my Templar do damage like that?
(find, another build, got it)

Did you see the passives for the Templar class mastery they posted? It's going to be a HUGE buff to pure Templars. I just hope they don't destroy the class with the rework next year.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · March 15

No

The arcanist/nightblade/templar combo is too much

Rev Rielle · March 15

Yes

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I'd say generally speaking, everything is a bit too over the top (speaking about the game and classes in general). The game needs a stat squish across the board, both in PvP and PvE. Never-ending power creep without proper balance checks is rarely a good thing.

I agree. There's a type that loves powercreep of their prefered class, seemingly regardless of it's wider impact on trivializing/unbalancing a game, and developers see it as a easy way to lure in/back players. But it's really unhealthy for the game as a whole I feel.

Kalthea · March 16

I'm going to comment without voting, because I can see several sides and I don't think there is enough on either side to give a Yes or No vote.

The way I see it, having a class refresh like this is beneficial in several ways. It let's them re-do art assets for effects and animation, it let's them re-tune EVERY class around eachother in a new and up-to-date ecosystem along with new interactions within those classes, and it let's them perform gradual adjustment to numbers and effects to allow for easier balancing. Players being brought back are certainly a goal, but bringing everything to parody is also a goal.

The problems with this update are fairly obvious. That being that it makes the issues that existed before far more apparent, and it shows cracks in the art and balance of the game if older content is unable to keep up.

Be patient. I know it all seems bad now when you look at just Dragon Knight, but we are far from the end of the class adjustments, and I'm more than happy to wait patiently to see how they change classes. Who knows? Maybe I'll play a class I havent touched in years because of the changes.

Mrtoobyy · March 16

Yes

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I'd say generally speaking, everything is a bit too over the top (speaking about the game and classes in general). The game needs a stat squish across the board, both in PvP and PvE. Never-ending power creep without proper balance checks is rarely a good thing.

Totally agree!
Even though I love that ZOS is refreshing the game as it is in dire need of it IMO but they way they buffs stuff is too volatile.
Soon we will see DK nerfs and when the next class is getting reworked it will have the same exact treatment and the cycle repeats. I don't get the logic ZOS do things but atleast the game is free, I would not give them a dime at this point if it were P2P

Avran_Sylt · March 16

Did you pick up one of those red powerups in BG's?

That's probably why.

Attorneyatlawl · March 17

No

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Those tooltips look really juiced up. If only eso had some form of soft-caps, a lot of this outlandish over-the-top damage could be reeled in.

It had both soft caps and hard caps at launch.

Xarc · March 17

Yes

crazy how 70% people think 26k one shot dmg in pvp is ok

Kartalin · March 17

No

Xarc wrote: »

crazy how 70% people think 26k one shot dmg in pvp is ok

After battle spirit and mitigation though, what is it going to be, 10k tops when fully procced? Pretty strong but not outlandish, especially considering the time needed to build it up to even get to that level. They're going to use molten whip as a finisher so be ready for them to cc you before applying it as they want to ensure their whip lands.

And you should still run 30k+ health regardless.

El_Borracho · March 17

No

Xarc wrote: »

crazy how 70% people think 26k one shot dmg in pvp is ok

I know. We used to call them "Nightblades." Funny how its only a problem when another class can do that.

But this is what people asked for with subclassing. And this is exactly what those against subclassing predicted would happen, including the part where other class lines would have to be buffed or nerfed in order to even things out.

SandandStars · March 21

Yes

NB pvp'rs are insufferable.

DK pvp'rs are meatheads.

This is entirely objective.

ImPoStier · March 28

No

Instead of nerfing DK I would rather them give the same power to all the classes

aLi3nZ · March 29

What sets are you wearing to get those numbers? But yeah honestly seem a little op I have a toon with that skill line and those skills now and it’s super fun to play but crazy how sustain and damage is so good while I m so tanky.

ADarklore · March 30

No

ImPoStier wrote: »

Instead of nerfing DK I would rather them give the same power to all the classes

See, that's what so many players don't seem to get. PATIENCE. Yes, it sucks that one class is OP, but eventually (hopefully), Warden will be equal to DK, then Sorcerer will be equal to DK and Warden, etc... through the rest of the rework pass. So many just want instant gratification that they cannot see the forest through the trees. This is a long process, and yes, if you main one class, you might be unfortunate to run a class that will be down for six months, perhaps a year, but in the end... your class will be brought up (hopefully) with all those reworked before them.

There is a lot of hopefully's in this, because based on my long experience with ZOS and their changes, many things could still go south. I'm hoping that the new leadership team will be very different in their decision making compared to the previous, and so far, they are showing that to be true. So I have a LOT of 'hope' that when all is said and done, all classes will be in a much better state.

Cominfordatoothbrush · March 30

No

The fact that soul of flame is so powerful makes the old breath/talon/talon rotation work well in trash with new DK in pve, so I love it

The Elder Scrolls Online

Isn't this a bit too much?

Isn't this a bit too much? 70 votes