Sorcerer Class Mastery Discussion

Turtle_Bot · March 14

L_Nici wrote: »

For Magsorc those might seem unneeded, but Stamsorcs greatly benefit from those. Yeah Stamsorcs do exist in this game, I know it is regulary forgotten, that not everyone runs around with a zoo.

Not every magsorc wants to run around with a zoo either and a good number of those also don't want to rely only on shields for their defenses too. I know it gets lost in the debates about the class, but the class does have more than just pets sorcs, shield sorcs and stam sorcs, and it would be nice if they didn't get forgotten about with the refresh.

As for the class mastery passives, they unfortunately double dip too much into things Sorcerer just doesn't need more of.
- Parallel Protection should have been a secondary part of Efficient Defense, as a "group support" effect to help Sorc find a place in group content.
- Efficient Defense definitely should have been a 6 second shield with an 8 second cooldown or at least worked similar to Arc shields where it's a giant shield for the first second but reduces to the value of parallel protection for the remaining 5 seconds.
- Conservation of Energy should have also supported the group (at half values) to again help sorcerer find a role in groups, especially with DK stealing the sole reason to bring any sorc skill at all into group content (atro berserk).
- Font of Power is the closest to good from these, but could have used some crit damage, crit chance or pen, which are all things Sorcerer really lacks in it's current kit (maybe this will be addressed with the rework, but for now having it on the class mastery until the refresh would help a lot. A really nice touch was the increase on top of the base values for stacking into max stats that used to be one of sorcs niches before that just became too inefficient to be viable.
- Implosion is weird to place. It's an interesting idea, but it falls flat on it's implementation. The pets don't proc it and Sorc has no sticky DoT abilities and only 1 "multi-hit" ability in it's class kit and the main non-class ability (force pulse) doesn't work with it either since all of that abilities damage instances are on cast, not spread over the GCD, so it only procs it once, so while it looks potentially very strong theoretically (numbers and scaling dependent), it just falls flat in practice because of having a cooldown between procs instead of a limit of procs per GCD and the extremely limited ways to proc it within the class kit (or common non-class abilities used by Sorc).

Two final things to note about these masteries are:
1. They don't address the classes current extreme lack of cleave damage (like NB masteries, but unlike NB masteries Sorcs masteries don't break specific game mechanics to allow some unique interactions/niche reasons to bring the class).
2. The DK mastery is completely removing the sole reason to bring any Sorcerer skill line (let alone the class itself) into group content (group wide major berserk from atro), but none of Sorcerers masteries make up for this and it will be like this (sorc barred from group content) for up to 6 months if this is not addressed before the class masteries go live. ZOS can adjust the masteries post sorc refresh, but there needs to be something to encourage bringing sorc into group content since DK is now providing Major Berserk (as well as other buffs) which was the only reason to bring any sorc line at all into group content, even more so since the masteries shown without extreme numbers buffs won't even make up the difference required to push sorc up to being the "parse DD" class due to the lack of cleave and damage.

Faltasë · March 14

Yudo wrote: »

CONSERVATION OF ENERGY
I am actually looking forward to the sustain because of pvp and my pve tank. This will be very useful and high on my list.

FONT OF POWER
Love this is pure power based. Fits sorcerer very well. Looking forward to this one the most.

IMPLOSION
Interesting concept, though only relevant to DD and execute specific. We do not know how strong this will be but low on my list right now.

EFFICIENT DEFENSE
Sounds more like a buffer/parry system, need to test it. If it works with any sorc skill and not just channeling skills this might be very strong. Though less confident about this one where and when I would use it.

PARALLEL PROTECTION.
Sorc should be masters of shields, and this one fits very well. My only concern is the sorc kit really only has self shielding, so this requires external "help" to make the group utility work.

They need to be useful in PvE/PvP and role based so you cannot please everyone I guess.
In general I love the direction and think the Sorc passive makes sense for the identity but obviously the values are not final and hopefully there will be a dialogue for PTS where feedback that matters will be considered.

At this point, again, the question is not about "are they usable" it's always been about whether or not they're worth using over subclass. And in their current state, they bring nothing of significant value to the table for 2/3 of the PVE roles and only niche situations in the PVP kit.

The only ones here worth a *** are Font of Power and Implosion, and even then, they don't help your team so much as they just help you as a singular player.

To me, it seems as though they only want Sorcerers to stay as a Solo PVE class, and to be honest, that really pisses me off.

Faltasë · March 14

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

For Magsorc those might seem unneeded, but Stamsorcs greatly benefit from those. Yeah Stamsorcs do exist in this game, I know it is regulary forgotten, that not everyone runs around with a zoo.

Not every magsorc wants to run around with a zoo either and a good number of those also don't want to rely only on shields for their defenses too. I know it gets lost in the debates about the class, but the class does have more than just pets sorcs, shield sorcs and stam sorcs, and it would be nice if they didn't get forgotten about with the refresh.

As for the class mastery passives, they unfortunately double dip too much into things Sorcerer just doesn't need more of.
- Parallel Protection should have been a secondary part of Efficient Defense, as a "group support" effect to help Sorc find a place in group content.
- Efficient Defense definitely should have been a 6 second shield with an 8 second cooldown or at least worked similar to Arc shields where it's a giant shield for the first second but reduces to the value of parallel protection for the remaining 5 seconds.
- Conservation of Energy should have also supported the group (at half values) to again help sorcerer find a role in groups, especially with DK stealing the sole reason to bring any sorc skill at all into group content (atro berserk).
- Font of Power is the closest to good from these, but could have used some crit damage, crit chance or pen, which are all things Sorcerer really lacks in it's current kit (maybe this will be addressed with the rework, but for now having it on the class mastery until the refresh would help a lot. A really nice touch was the increase on top of the base values for stacking into max stats that used to be one of sorcs niches before that just became too inefficient to be viable.
- Implosion is weird to place. It's an interesting idea, but it falls flat on it's implementation. The pets don't proc it and Sorc has no sticky DoT abilities and only 1 "multi-hit" ability in it's class kit and the main non-class ability (force pulse) doesn't work with it either since all of that abilities damage instances are on cast, not spread over the GCD, so it only procs it once, so while it looks potentially very strong theoretically (numbers and scaling dependent), it just falls flat in practice because of having a cooldown between procs instead of a limit of procs per GCD and the extremely limited ways to proc it within the class kit (or common non-class abilities used by Sorc).

Two final things to note about these masteries are:
1. They don't address the classes current extreme lack of cleave damage (like NB masteries, but unlike NB masteries Sorcs masteries don't break specific game mechanics to allow some unique interactions/niche reasons to bring the class).
2. The DK mastery is completely removing the sole reason to bring any Sorcerer skill line (let alone the class itself) into group content (group wide major berserk from atro), but none of Sorcerers masteries make up for this and it will be like this (sorc barred from group content) for up to 6 months if this is not addressed before the class masteries go live. ZOS can adjust the masteries post sorc refresh, but there needs to be something to encourage bringing sorc into group content since DK is now providing Major Berserk (as well as other buffs) which was the only reason to bring any sorc line at all into group content, even more so since the masteries shown without extreme numbers buffs won't even make up the difference required to push sorc up to being the "parse DD" class due to the lack of cleave and damage.

I think another issue that really irks me is when I retroactively go back and look at all of the class kits, because currently the format doesn't allow for diversity of allowing a lot of classes or setups into raids because they don't bring a whole lot to the table, even the subclass meta (herald/aedric/ardent) can't bring anything of group value because it's all based upon personal damage. They are really forcing too much of a role onto support classes to bring group buffs and I think that is a really stupid execution.

If your entire philosophy is that you are trying to combat the "power creep" but yet your entire game is centered around burning enemies as fast as your team can, then they're never gonna give a *** about proper balance for any class kits. I think personally they should fix that outlook. With some of the group utility I'm seeing however, it looks as though this philosophy is that of the old combat team, not the new one. Hopefully this feeling changes after the refreshes, and hopefully they address that.

ZhuJiuyin · March 14

Faltasë wrote: »

At this point, again, the question is not about "are they usable" it's always been about whether or not they're worth using over subclass. And in their current state, they bring nothing of significant value to the table for 2/3 of the PVE roles and only niche situations in the PVP kit.

That hits the nail on the head! Based on current knowledge of class mastery, Sorc's class mastery is terrible; it still can't compete with other subclass builds, not even with New-pure DK or Old-pure Arc.

To me, it seems as though they only want Sorcerers to stay as a Solo PVE class, and to be honest, that really pisses me off.

This is what I'm afraid of. Sorc has performed quite well in solo games in the past, but precisely because of this, Sorc has always performed very poorly in organized groups, serving almost no purpose other than as a buffing robot. Sorc's current problems in organized groups are: 1. Insufficient DPS, especially area-of-effect damage; 2. Lack of sufficiently engaging skill lines, such as the Templar's Execute, the Necro&NB 's Critical, the DK's Whip, etc.

ZhuJiuyin · March 14

Faltasë wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

If I were designing Sorc's class mastery, I would revise it like this.

CONSERVATION OF ENERGY
Your tireless hours spent researching and learning the inner machinations of reality have given you insight into your energy transformation：Upgrades rank 2 of Blood Magic to work with any ability with a cost, increasing your critical damage and critical healing by 10% for 20seconds.

Comment: As others have said, resource recovery is not a problem for Sorc; what Sorc lacks is sufficient critical damage and penetration.

FONT OF POWER
Your thirst for knowledge knows no end. The more you quench it the deeper it gets. Upgrades rank 2 of Exploitation to work with any Sorcerer ability and increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 5%, and Penetration increases by 2000 for 20 seconds. The weapon and Spell Damage increases by 1% for every 1500 Max Magicka or Stamina you have, whichever is higher.

Comment: FONT OF POWER is one of the few classes that I think requires almost no modification to master. The design concept of converting the maximum resources into Weapon and Spell Damage is excellent, but I think Sorc already has Expert Mage, so some Weapon and Spell Damage should be converted into penetration.

IMPLOSION
Thunder follows lightning, so too do your Blows Echo and strike again. When you or your permanent pet deal damage, you apply one stack of Blows Echo to the target, stacking up to one stack every 1 second. Once four stacks are reached, all Blows Echoes are automatically consumed, and the target takes 6000 Shock damage.

Comment: I thought ZOS had abandoned the old and unstable "probability-based" design, and in the case of area damage, wouldn't IMPLOSION's "probability-based damage" really put a burden on server computing power? Damage should be changed to a more intuitive design, and the use of permanent pets should not be penalized.

EFFICIENT DEFENSE
You leave nothing to chance, creating contingencies in every plan you enact. When you use any Sorc skill, or any skill that requires a cast time, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10,000 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can be gained once every 8 seconds. If the damage shield is not broken, it restores 1,000 magicka and stamina.

Comment: 0.3-second damage shield is ridiculous, and all of Sorc's abilities with cast times exceed 0.5 seconds, with the longest reaching 1.5 seconds. I merged the original CONSERVATION OF ENERGY with EFFICIENT DEFENSE because neither of these abilities is particularly appealing on its own.

PARALLEL PROTECTION Dark Pact
You haven't survived your foray into the forbidden realm on luck alone; your dark spells are cast with such efficiency that they can distort reality. When your Unholy Knowledge reaches level 2, your chance to inflict status effects is increased by 50%, and the damage dealt by status effects is increased by 50%. Concussion damage is increased by an additional 50%. Furthermore, inflicting Concussion also inflicts Major Vulnerability on the target.

Comment: One ability related to damage shields is enough; there's no need to give Sorc anything more about damage shields. Therefore, I've chosen to rework Parallel Protection to allow it to interact more with shock damage and Concussion, and to encourage Sorc to use shock damage.

Good changes, but I think there should be some group utility in there(but maybe the group utility will be in the core class refresh idk)

Like the damage shield one? Give damage shields to the entire group in a trial. As well as the recovery to the entire group(extend the sustain to the group, a reason to say "hey bring this sorc along"

I also think Font of Power or Conservation of energy should have group buffs as well. If warden can do it, then let other class masteries do it. Actually it's preferred that way.

I believe team support and buffs should be left until the class is reworked before adjustments are made. Class mastery should focus on addressing the current shortcomings of the sorceress or enhancing certain features (such as FONT OF POWER, which encourages stacking maximum attributes and showcases the sorceress's unique characteristic in terms of build diversity compared to other classes).

ZhuJiuyin · March 14

Yudo wrote: »

PARALLEL PROTECTION.
Sorc should be masters of shields, and this one fits very well. My only concern is the sorc kit really only has self shielding, so this requires external "help" to make the group utility work.

I think you've forgotten Daedric Refuge, but I forgot about it at first too, which shows that even though it's been reworked, it's still very unpopular.

but obviously the values are not final and hopefully there will be a dialogue for PTS where feedback that matters will be considered.

If possible, I hope that Sorc's class mastery can be modified before the PTS goes live, because the developers have said that once it goes live on the PTS, it means that the changes are already largely finalized, and even a simple change to the skill range will take several weeks, making other changes more difficult.

Elendildur · March 14

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

PARALLEL PROTECTION.
Sorc should be masters of shields, and this one fits very well. My only concern is the sorc kit really only has self shielding, so this requires external "help" to make the group utility work.

I think you've forgotten Daedric Refuge, but I forgot about it at first too, which shows that even though it's been reworked, it's still very unpopular.

Even if they hadn't forgotten about Daedric Refuge, it's an awful way of shielding others. Only 5 shields per cast, and you have to be stood fairly precisely with respect to the DDs to get any of the shields on them, plus 2 are behind you, so they're basically never getting triggered, since the healer should be behind the DDs

Faltasë · March 15

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

If I were designing Sorc's class mastery, I would revise it like this.

CONSERVATION OF ENERGY
Your tireless hours spent researching and learning the inner machinations of reality have given you insight into your energy transformation：Upgrades rank 2 of Blood Magic to work with any ability with a cost, increasing your critical damage and critical healing by 10% for 20seconds.

Comment: As others have said, resource recovery is not a problem for Sorc; what Sorc lacks is sufficient critical damage and penetration.

FONT OF POWER
Your thirst for knowledge knows no end. The more you quench it the deeper it gets. Upgrades rank 2 of Exploitation to work with any Sorcerer ability and increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 5%, and Penetration increases by 2000 for 20 seconds. The weapon and Spell Damage increases by 1% for every 1500 Max Magicka or Stamina you have, whichever is higher.

Comment: FONT OF POWER is one of the few classes that I think requires almost no modification to master. The design concept of converting the maximum resources into Weapon and Spell Damage is excellent, but I think Sorc already has Expert Mage, so some Weapon and Spell Damage should be converted into penetration.

IMPLOSION
Thunder follows lightning, so too do your Blows Echo and strike again. When you or your permanent pet deal damage, you apply one stack of Blows Echo to the target, stacking up to one stack every 1 second. Once four stacks are reached, all Blows Echoes are automatically consumed, and the target takes 6000 Shock damage.

Comment: I thought ZOS had abandoned the old and unstable "probability-based" design, and in the case of area damage, wouldn't IMPLOSION's "probability-based damage" really put a burden on server computing power? Damage should be changed to a more intuitive design, and the use of permanent pets should not be penalized.

EFFICIENT DEFENSE
You leave nothing to chance, creating contingencies in every plan you enact. When you use any Sorc skill, or any skill that requires a cast time, you gain a damage shield that absorbs 10,000 damage for 6 seconds. This effect can be gained once every 8 seconds. If the damage shield is not broken, it restores 1,000 magicka and stamina.

Comment: 0.3-second damage shield is ridiculous, and all of Sorc's abilities with cast times exceed 0.5 seconds, with the longest reaching 1.5 seconds. I merged the original CONSERVATION OF ENERGY with EFFICIENT DEFENSE because neither of these abilities is particularly appealing on its own.

PARALLEL PROTECTION Dark Pact
You haven't survived your foray into the forbidden realm on luck alone; your dark spells are cast with such efficiency that they can distort reality. When your Unholy Knowledge reaches level 2, your chance to inflict status effects is increased by 50%, and the damage dealt by status effects is increased by 50%. Concussion damage is increased by an additional 50%. Furthermore, inflicting Concussion also inflicts Major Vulnerability on the target.

Comment: One ability related to damage shields is enough; there's no need to give Sorc anything more about damage shields. Therefore, I've chosen to rework Parallel Protection to allow it to interact more with shock damage and Concussion, and to encourage Sorc to use shock damage.

Good changes, but I think there should be some group utility in there(but maybe the group utility will be in the core class refresh idk)

Like the damage shield one? Give damage shields to the entire group in a trial. As well as the recovery to the entire group(extend the sustain to the group, a reason to say "hey bring this sorc along"

I also think Font of Power or Conservation of energy should have group buffs as well. If warden can do it, then let other class masteries do it. Actually it's preferred that way.

I believe team support and buffs should be left until the class is reworked before adjustments are made. Class mastery should focus on addressing the current shortcomings of the sorceress or enhancing certain features (such as FONT OF POWER, which encourages stacking maximum attributes and showcases the sorceress's unique characteristic in terms of build diversity compared to other classes).

Oh at the moment I agree, I'm just putting that out there because the group support thing has, for the most part, always been an ignored part of DPS roles for this game and that's one of the cores of the problems. It's just that Sorcerer is the brunt of that.

(Hopefully I make sense)

Tannus15 · March 15

L_Nici wrote: »

For Magsorc those might seem unneeded, but Stamsorcs greatly benefit from those. Yeah Stamsorcs do exist in this game, I know it is regulary forgotten, that not everyone runs around with a zoo.

I don't understand your point. the highest dps pure sorc stam build use the pets.
whether you use mag or stam is beside the point.

ZhuJiuyin · March 16

Faltasë wrote: »

[

Oh at the moment I agree, I'm just putting that out there because the group support thing has, for the most part, always been an ignored part of DPS roles for this game and that's one of the cores of the problems. It's just that Sorcerer is the brunt of that.

(Hopefully I make sense)

I understand your point

, but here's my thinking: (In PvE) when a DPS character has to expend extra effort to provide additional team support, their potential is inevitably limited.

For example, consider the Necromancer. Colossus is an excellent team support skill, but it doesn't work with the Necromancer's Rapid Rot. Therefore, if a Necromancer wants better DPS, Shooting Star would be a better choice. The same applies to Dragonknight's Magma Fist.

Only builds like Hemorrhage and the old Engulfing Flames, which combine team support with high-DPS active/passive abilities, are ideal.

Currently, the biggest problem with pure Sorc is that the outdated pet system already limits its potential. If team support is emphasized further, Sorc will inevitably become a buffing robot. What Sorc needs most right now is a playstyle that doesn't require distraction by team support and can compete with current top DPS builds. Only then can Sorc shed the pathetic label of a buffing robot. Not to mention, based on current information, Dragonknight will be a better source of Major Berserkers in the next version.

Therefore, I believe that what pure Sorc should strive for right now is a build that sheds the buff-bot label and focuses entirely on DPS. Even if it needs to also provide team support, it should at least acquire skills similar to the old Engulfing Flames. After all, for a very long time, it's been rare to see Sorc players not wearing support sets on the logs, and it's truly unreasonable that Sorc, as the representative of magic damage in the old class, has always only served as a team support.

ZhuJiuyin · March 16

Tannus15 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

For Magsorc those might seem unneeded, but Stamsorcs greatly benefit from those. Yeah Stamsorcs do exist in this game, I know it is regulary forgotten, that not everyone runs around with a zoo.

I don't understand your point. the highest dps pure sorc stam build use the pets.
whether you use mag or stam is beside the point.

Agreed. Currently, most Sorc builds in endgame PvE are Stamina-based. Besides the fact that Stamina skills generally deal more damage than magic skills, Sorc are often treated as buff robots by the raid, thus being forced to wear sets like Way of Martial Knowledge. Magic Sorc are actually less common in endgame PvE.