2H is still weak

SneaK · March 13

Right now, and especially with the refreshes forthcoming, the only useful skills in 2H are Rally, Brawler, and Execute. And each one of those are situational or niche based on what skill lines you are runnning cause Brutality has better sources depending on class, same with executes and Brawler is niche for PvP bombers.

I’m not trying to solution this, cause I don’t know what the best answer is, but 2H is still clunky and the amount of movement speed in PvP makes the spammable way to hard to land.

It’s like this skill line is stuck in 2020 when it didn’t have a proper CC but people weren’t running 100% move speed. Something has to give, either make the risk/reward better with bigger damage, give it some type of move speed, or bring back old school WB. Right now it doesn’t work, and is wildly outclassed by class skills or DW passives.

BardokRedSnow · March 13

I switched to dual wielding myself for the first time in a while, since DK has so much damage now that I don’t feel I need an execute. Besides that though the new animations while great, and smooth in most cases aren’t as responsive as they used to be, which is funny since people used to complain about that. It feels like the old version would let you execute even if the animation didn’t show when it was supposed to, but now if it doesn’t show from game performance it just doesn’t go through at all.

Very clunky indeed.

SneaK · March 13

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I switched to dual wielding myself for the first time in a while, since DK has so much damage now that I don’t feel I need an execute. Besides that though the new animations while great, and smooth in most cases aren’t as responsive as they used to be, which is funny since people used to complain about that. It feels like the old version would let you execute even if the animation didn’t show when it was supposed to, but now if it doesn’t show from game performance it just doesn’t go through at all.

Very clunky indeed.

Yeaaa, I have two DKs from years ago, one is Mag and one is Stam. They don’t make sense anymore. My StamDK has always been a 2H character, but it’s really hard to play him that way anymore. There are just too many better options, and I can’t land dizzys cause everyone flies around at 100mph.

The only class that really shines with a 2H now is a Stamblade, cause they aren’t relying on WB or Dizzy since they have SA.

Urzigurumash · March 13

I agree, and there was this movement on this forum that "Class Skills should always outperform Non Class Skills" and "Every Class needs a spammable".

Which combine to "Why is my character carrying this big old axe, what's it good for?"

The rework should have come with a buff to all of the skills.

SneaK · March 13

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I agree, and there was this movement on this forum that "Class Skills should always outperform Non Class Skills" and "Every Class needs a spammable".

Which combine to "Why is my character carrying this big old axe, what's it good for?"

The rework should have come with a buff to all of the skills.

Yea.. weapon skills are pretty much just flat out lackluster in comparison, which is semi okay but it still makes it feel like we’re forced into specific setups based on the utility/passives of a weapon skill line. I’d love to be excited to run a 2H dizzy build, but it’s an underperforming spec compared to most.

Ratzkifal · March 13

Especially the outrunning part shouldn't really be an issue anymore. I've noticed Wrecking Blow and Dswing now only check for range at the start of the ability. In PvE I was surprised why I couldn't use Wrecking Blow again after I had just landed the skill on an NPC and it turns out I cast it, moved, stopped, the skill landed, and I couldn't cast it again because I had moved out of range. I move closer, activate the skill, it winds up, I move away, it lands, I try to cast it again and I can't. Seems intentional and even in some BGs I've felt the skill is infinitely more reliable to land.

Speed is an issue in PvP, but that's not the fault of Dswing.

Also for PvE, I'm actually kind of annoyed 2handed is more or less the only viable backbar option because of the way Maelstrom Twohander interacts with Beam, Firebreath etc. I feel like staves and bows need a lot more attention than twohander does right now.

YandereGirlfriend · March 13

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Especially the outrunning part shouldn't really be an issue anymore. I've noticed Wrecking Blow and Dswing now only check for range at the start of the ability. In PvE I was surprised why I couldn't use Wrecking Blow again after I had just landed the skill on an NPC and it turns out I cast it, moved, stopped, the skill landed, and I couldn't cast it again because I had moved out of range. I move closer, activate the skill, it winds up, I move away, it lands, I try to cast it again and I can't. Seems intentional and even in some BGs I've felt the skill is infinitely more reliable to land.

Speed is an issue in PvP, but that's not the fault of Dswing.

Also for PvE, I'm actually kind of annoyed 2handed is more or less the only viable backbar option because of the way Maelstrom Twohander interacts with Beam, Firebreath etc. I feel like staves and bows need a lot more attention than twohander does right now.

I mean, the entire line is being crutched by a single arena weapon.

That isn't the skill line being good, that is the arena weapon being very clearly overpowered.

Ratzkifal · March 13

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Especially the outrunning part shouldn't really be an issue anymore. I've noticed Wrecking Blow and Dswing now only check for range at the start of the ability. In PvE I was surprised why I couldn't use Wrecking Blow again after I had just landed the skill on an NPC and it turns out I cast it, moved, stopped, the skill landed, and I couldn't cast it again because I had moved out of range. I move closer, activate the skill, it winds up, I move away, it lands, I try to cast it again and I can't. Seems intentional and even in some BGs I've felt the skill is infinitely more reliable to land.

Speed is an issue in PvP, but that's not the fault of Dswing.

Also for PvE, I'm actually kind of annoyed 2handed is more or less the only viable backbar option because of the way Maelstrom Twohander interacts with Beam, Firebreath etc. I feel like staves and bows need a lot more attention than twohander does right now.

I mean, the entire line is being crutched by a single arena weapon.

That isn't the skill line being good, that is the arena weapon being very clearly overpowered.

But every other skill in that skill line is good too. Carve is a neat source of damage over time and Hemorhaging. With the Master twohander it's a bomb skill in PvP and very good in solo content, for example when grinding. Momentum is still a great source to get Major Brutality, which Nightblades don't have access to outside of subclassing or using a very situational Siphoning skill. Stampede is still a gapcloser, which makes switching targets across the room in a raid very convenient compared to what bows or destro staves have. Wrecking Blow provides you with Major Berserk, which is great if you have a lot of dots ticking also! The twohander ultimate is one of the only ways to combat the tankiest players in PvP.

Passives aside, I feel the only reason twohanded is not considered to be better than dualwield is because dualwield gets access to two enchantment (that's two extra status effects), gets Major Evasion on top of that, and has great scribing options.

I don't want twohander to be nerfed and I think it could do with some better passives. But other than that it's definitely not my in my top 3 weapons that need to be buffed. That's bow, destro staff and resto staff (mainly the 2 skills that aren't commonly run by healers right now).

Vulkunne · March 13

SneaK wrote: »

Right now, and especially with the refreshes forthcoming, the only useful skills in 2H are Rally, Brawler, and Execute. And each one of those are situational or niche based on what skill lines you are runnning cause Brutality has better sources depending on class, same with executes and Brawler is niche for PvP bombers.

I’m not trying to solution this, cause I don’t know what the best answer is, but 2H is still clunky and the amount of movement speed in PvP makes the spammable way to hard to land.

It’s like this skill line is stuck in 2020 when it didn’t have a proper CC but people weren’t running 100% move speed. Something has to give, either make the risk/reward better with bigger damage, give it some type of move speed, or bring back old school WB. Right now it doesn’t work, and is wildly outclassed by class skills or DW passives.

You are correct on all counts. This is why I already swapped to ... 'other things'. It would be so much better if they would just make everything work, let everyone 'gravitate' towards what you prefer instead of the best conventional solution.

YandereGirlfriend · March 13

Ratzkifal wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Especially the outrunning part shouldn't really be an issue anymore. I've noticed Wrecking Blow and Dswing now only check for range at the start of the ability. In PvE I was surprised why I couldn't use Wrecking Blow again after I had just landed the skill on an NPC and it turns out I cast it, moved, stopped, the skill landed, and I couldn't cast it again because I had moved out of range. I move closer, activate the skill, it winds up, I move away, it lands, I try to cast it again and I can't. Seems intentional and even in some BGs I've felt the skill is infinitely more reliable to land.

Speed is an issue in PvP, but that's not the fault of Dswing.

Also for PvE, I'm actually kind of annoyed 2handed is more or less the only viable backbar option because of the way Maelstrom Twohander interacts with Beam, Firebreath etc. I feel like staves and bows need a lot more attention than twohander does right now.

I mean, the entire line is being crutched by a single arena weapon.

That isn't the skill line being good, that is the arena weapon being very clearly overpowered.

But every other skill in that skill line is good too. Carve is a neat source of damage over time and Hemorhaging. With the Master twohander it's a bomb skill in PvP and very good in solo content, for example when grinding. Momentum is still a great source to get Major Brutality, which Nightblades don't have access to outside of subclassing or using a very situational Siphoning skill. Stampede is still a gapcloser, which makes switching targets across the room in a raid very convenient compared to what bows or destro staves have. Wrecking Blow provides you with Major Berserk, which is great if you have a lot of dots ticking also! The twohander ultimate is one of the only ways to combat the tankiest players in PvP.

Passives aside, I feel the only reason twohanded is not considered to be better than dualwield is because dualwield gets access to two enchantment (that's two extra status effects), gets Major Evasion on top of that, and has great scribing options.

I don't want twohander to be nerfed and I think it could do with some better passives. But other than that it's definitely not my in my top 3 weapons that need to be buffed. That's bow, destro staff and resto staff (mainly the 2 skills that aren't commonly run by healers right now).

I was speaking more to PvE where nobody would bother touching a 2H if not for the wildly overpowered state of the Maelstrom 2H, a skill that few actually enjoy using in content due to the clunky mechanics of casting it but who are obligated to run anyway because it is the mathematical best-in-slot option for damage for purely arbitrary reasons.

You remove the Maelstrom and the entire skill line disappears from existence overnight because there is nothing left to justify its presence. That isn't healthy or evidence of a good skill line.

DW will remain the golden child because it uniquely houses the game's most valuable stat, Crit Chance as well as simultaneous access to high Weapon Damage. 2H needs access to Crit Chance (or an astronomical amount of Weapon Damage) if it is ever to become viable front-bar weapon again or to transcend its token role of Maelstrom buff delivery vehicle.

SneaK · March 13

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Especially the outrunning part shouldn't really be an issue anymore. I've noticed Wrecking Blow and Dswing now only check for range at the start of the ability. In PvE I was surprised why I couldn't use Wrecking Blow again after I had just landed the skill on an NPC and it turns out I cast it, moved, stopped, the skill landed, and I couldn't cast it again because I had moved out of range. I move closer, activate the skill, it winds up, I move away, it lands, I try to cast it again and I can't. Seems intentional and even in some BGs I've felt the skill is infinitely more reliable to land.

Speed is an issue in PvP, but that's not the fault of Dswing.

Also for PvE, I'm actually kind of annoyed 2handed is more or less the only viable backbar option because of the way Maelstrom Twohander interacts with Beam, Firebreath etc. I feel like staves and bows need a lot more attention than twohander does right now.

No, speed is not the fault of 2H… but because of the availability of speed, 2H is unreliable without proper CCs, speed itself, or more damage.. which is all sourced somewhere other than the 2H lineup.

Most of what I say pertains to PvP.

In the PvE world, it’s a staple weapon choice because of an arena weapon, no one would run stampede without the Maelstrom 2H seriously for PvE.

spartaxoxo · March 13

SneaK wrote: »

In the PvE world, it’s a staple weapon choice because of an arena weapon, no one would run stampede without the Maelstrom 2H seriously for PvE.

That's true of most weapon skill as class skills are just generally better. The arena weapons play such a large part in the determination of the backbar weapon because arena weapons have their own set bonuses. 2H is in a better position than the other weapons in PvE, with the exception of daggers as daggers are simply better than all the other weapon types for PvE DPS.

SneaK · March 13

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

In the PvE world, it’s a staple weapon choice because of an arena weapon, no one would run stampede without the Maelstrom 2H seriously for PvE.

That's true of most weapon skill as class skills are just generally better. The arena weapons play such a large part in the determination of the backbar weapon because arena weapons have their own set bonuses. 2H is in a better position than the other weapons in PvE, with the exception of daggers as daggers are simply better than all the other weapon types for PvE DPS.

This wasn’t always the case.. and with all the refreshes now would be an opportunity to make weapon skills more relevant. There are still classes without real spammables, Necro for instance. DK used to fall into this category, but the refresh moved whip 7 tiers above dizzy/wb. There’s also a ton of sources for brutality now, Rally was a staple for stam characters without class brut buffs, that doesn’t matter anymore. There’s just been so many mechanical changes to the game that has decreased the value of what 2H offers.

Radiate77 · March 13

Might be as simple as adjusting passives for both Dual Wield and 2-Handed for parity.

SneaK · March 13

Radiate77 wrote: »

Might be as simple as adjusting passives for both Dual Wield and 2-Handed for parity.

It’s the skills themselves too though.

Not the end of the world cause there’s many options but 2H spammable rn is an underperformer and there’s still plenty of classes that don’t have a reliable spam attack nor the kit required to run a dswing build.

Radiate77 · March 13

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Might be as simple as adjusting passives for both Dual Wield and 2-Handed for parity.

It’s the skills themselves too though.

Not the end of the world cause there’s many options but 2H spammable rn is an underperformer and there’s still plenty of classes that don’t have a reliable spam attack nor the kit required to run a dswing build.

I don’t think the skills are weak, Assassination is just overpowered, and I fully expect Whip to be toned back.

There’s no reason why an instant-cast spammable should hit as hard as a cast time spammable, without actually doing anything.

BardokRedSnow · March 13

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Might be as simple as adjusting passives for both Dual Wield and 2-Handed for parity.

It’s the skills themselves too though.

Not the end of the world cause there’s many options but 2H spammable rn is an underperformer and there’s still plenty of classes that don’t have a reliable spam attack nor the kit required to run a dswing build.

I don’t think the skills are weak, Assassination is just overpowered, and I fully expect Whip to be toned back.

There’s no reason why an instant-cast spammable should hit as hard as a cast time spammable, without actually doing anything.

Whip doesnt need to be toned back, it needs to stay where it's at, especially because the assassination tree is so op. Nothing really needs to be toned back until the class reworks are finished, and they can focus on balancing between the new reworked classes specifically as they come out.

Its also not true that it hits hard without doing anything, you have to build the stacks first. If you just spam whip its pretty lack luster, unless you're in mech acuity window or corrosive is up. Even then you still wanna stack for the burst window.

I bet because the corrosive animation looks different and blends in more, people dont even know when corrosive is up and they think they just got it like that, same with mech which you can hide the blue shimmer. Whip by itself just spammed aint that strong, its the same with jabs.

master_vanargand · March 14

Compared to before, "Stampede" feels incredibly clunky.
Canceling a Light attack to activate the skill feels significantly more difficult than before, probably because the animation is so terrible.
"Carve" is also clunky. The animations are generally awful, making PvE difficult.
If they offered a way to switch back to the previous animations in the Crown Store, I would buy it without hesitation.
Why does ZoS destroy such great old work things?

Lord_Hev · March 14

Movement speed is 100% a massive issue that everyone wants to ignore because speed is a literal dopamine inducer. An easy first-step solution would be removing celerity or doing some speed debuff with battlespirit. Group-wide speed buffs also need addressing.

Thumbless_Bot · March 14

Melee should outperform all ranged damage. Risk reward. It's just that simple. Right now the difference is not enough.

Weapon skills should hit as hard as class and guild skills. Melee like melee and ranged like ranged.

Dizzy is absolutely pathetic right now on live and it's not just movement speed. Someone could be standing still right in front of you and dizzy wont land 80% of the time.

Executioner isnt mich better.

Zos has ruined two perfectly good skills for what... for what? To make the game appealing to new audiences? Well, you forgot out your existing audience... you know, the ones who have consistently paid for eso plus and new content for over a decade?

If you arent ruining pvp you are ruining the skills we use to pvp.

Stop forcing us to accept these dreadful changes just to play the game.

Gabriel_H · March 14

Two-Handed's weakness has been, and remains still, that melee is punished in this game. It can be done, I do it myself, but it is simply not as effcient as ... well ... beam builds. That is not a failing of the skill line, but a failing of the fight design in PvE.

Nemesis7884 · March 14

The 2h passives could use a little tune up

SneaK · March 14

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Might be as simple as adjusting passives for both Dual Wield and 2-Handed for parity.

It’s the skills themselves too though.

Not the end of the world cause there’s many options but 2H spammable rn is an underperformer and there’s still plenty of classes that don’t have a reliable spam attack nor the kit required to run a dswing build.

I don’t think the skills are weak, Assassination is just overpowered, and I fully expect Whip to be toned back.

There’s no reason why an instant-cast spammable should hit as hard as a cast time spammable, without actually doing anything.

That’s not it though, the playstyles have simply surpassed the skill line. I say movement speed but reality is gamespeed has been sped up. Everything about ESO now is min max from buffs, cp, passives, sets, skills, etc. The offering 2H provides doesn’t hit a max in any of ESO’s facets. Sure, there are gap fillers like Executioner or Rally, but none of them are exciting reasons to run a 2hander.

And the whole range thing I keep seeing, I disagree, again, speed in ESO has grown so much the penalty in melee combat is next to nothing. You don’t even need a gap closer to hunt down ranged opponents. Just don’t use dizzy cause even closing the gap you won’t be able to land consecutive hits.

spartaxoxo · March 14

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Melee should outperform all ranged damage. Risk reward. It's just that simple. Right now the difference is not enough.

Weapon skills should hit as hard as class and guild skills. Melee like melee and ranged like ranged.

Ranged is the higher risk playstyle at this point. The higher damage + speed + gap closers + resource restore being stam (vs staves) makes it lower risk than staves and bows.

Thumbless_Bot · March 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Melee should outperform all ranged damage. Risk reward. It's just that simple. Right now the difference is not enough.

Weapon skills should hit as hard as class and guild skills. Melee like melee and ranged like ranged.

Ranged is the higher risk playstyle at this point. The higher damage + speed + gap closers + resource restore being stam (vs staves) makes it lower risk than staves and bows.

Disagree.

1. Gap closers cost a lot of resources and need to be slotted and do not do good damage.

2. Bows are stam with movement speed bonus of hasty retreat.

3. The damage difference from dizzy and snipe is miniscule. Both spammables. I think it's 8% on my last test. They used to both have the same cast time as well. I have a post about it here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

4. Reach passive extends range by 5m for anything over 28m positively affecting staves and bows.

5. You can stand on a wall and hit me from up to 40m away. I cant stand on a wall and hit you from 8m away.

6. Thanks to the miracle workers at zos they managed to make dizzy and execute even less reliable than they already were.

7. This isnt an exhausted list, rather an illustrative list of why melee damage should be buffed.

So, to summarize, i have to slot skills and/or spend half my resources to chase you down. And when i do you can still hit me as hard or almost as hard as I can hit you, sometimes harder, with added crit and all your resources intact as a bonus.

Nope.

spartaxoxo · March 14

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Melee should outperform all ranged damage. Risk reward. It's just that simple. Right now the difference is not enough.

Weapon skills should hit as hard as class and guild skills. Melee like melee and ranged like ranged.

Ranged is the higher risk playstyle at this point. The higher damage + speed + gap closers + resource restore being stam (vs staves) makes it lower risk than staves and bows.

Disagree.

1. Gap closers cost a lot of resources and need to be slotted and do not do good damage.

2. Bows are stam with movement speed bonus of hasty retreat.

3. The damage difference from dizzy and snipe is miniscule. Both spammables. I think it's 8% on my last test. They used to both have the same cast time as well. I have a post about it here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

4. Reach passive extends range by 5m for anything over 28m positively affecting staves and bows.

5. You can stand on a wall and hit me from up to 40m away. I cant stand on a wall and hit you from 8m away.

6. Thanks to the miracle workers at zos they managed to make dizzy and execute even less reliable than they already were.

7. This isnt an exhausted list, rather an illustrative list of why melee damage should be buffed.

So, to summarize, i have to slot skills and/or spend half my resources to chase you down. And when i do you can still hit me as hard or almost as hard as I can hit you, sometimes harder, with added crit and all your resources intact as a bonus.

Nope.

All spells need to be slotted too. Wall fighting is a joke. When you're actually the real fighting occurs, getting close and maintaining that closeness to ranged users is trivial thanks to speed and gap closers. Complaining that something that greatly reduces the disadvantages inherent to your range doesn't also have a lot of damage is wild.

And that's especially true in BGs and IC. The damage bonus may not be large but it's enough to win fights, especially when melee greatly wins on counterplay to CC.

Range not being inferior in every possible scenario =/= melee isn't just better overall.

ETA
I'm not saying that 2H doesn't have any issues or that weapon skills in general couldn't use some tuning. Because they do need that, especially when it comes to offense (sword and board, ice staff, and resto staffs are all better shape than DPS weapon balance). But this idea that melee is oh so much riskier falls flat because speed is crazy in this game.

Thumbless_Bot · March 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Melee should outperform all ranged damage. Risk reward. It's just that simple. Right now the difference is not enough.

Weapon skills should hit as hard as class and guild skills. Melee like melee and ranged like ranged.

Ranged is the higher risk playstyle at this point. The higher damage + speed + gap closers + resource restore being stam (vs staves) makes it lower risk than staves and bows.

Disagree.

1. Gap closers cost a lot of resources and need to be slotted and do not do good damage.

2. Bows are stam with movement speed bonus of hasty retreat.

3. The damage difference from dizzy and snipe is miniscule. Both spammables. I think it's 8% on my last test. They used to both have the same cast time as well. I have a post about it here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

4. Reach passive extends range by 5m for anything over 28m positively affecting staves and bows.

5. You can stand on a wall and hit me from up to 40m away. I cant stand on a wall and hit you from 8m away.

6. Thanks to the miracle workers at zos they managed to make dizzy and execute even less reliable than they already were.

7. This isnt an exhausted list, rather an illustrative list of why melee damage should be buffed.

So, to summarize, i have to slot skills and/or spend half my resources to chase you down. And when i do you can still hit me as hard or almost as hard as I can hit you, sometimes harder, with added crit and all your resources intact as a bonus.

Nope.

All spells need to be slotted too. Wall fighting is a joke. When you're actually the real fighting occurs, getting close and maintaining that closeness to ranged users is trivial thanks to speed and gap closers. Complaining that something that greatly reduces the disadvantages inherent to your range doesn't also have a lot of damage is wild.

And that's especially true in BGs and IC. The damage bonus may not be large but it's enough to win fights, especially when melee greatly wins on counterplay to CC.

Range not being inferior in every possible scenario =/= melee isn't just better overall.

ETA
I'm not saying that 2H doesn't have any issues or that weapon skills in general couldn't use some tuning. Because they do need that, especially when it comes to offense (sword and board, ice staff, and resto staffs are all better shape than DPS weapon balance). But this idea that melee is oh so much riskier falls flat because speed is crazy in this game.

Disagree as above it is fundamentally safer to attack from far away than it is to attack up close for so, so many reasons. Also, you do not have to slot a gap closer. I do and have to spend resources to use it. The compensation for me having to slot and use that extra skill to fight ranged opponents is not enough.

This is why melee skills do slightly more damage, because even zos understands this. However, the delta is not enough.

No need to spam this post with a back and forth. We can disagree and that's cool, but actual battle irl and in game tend to support my position that the further away you are when you attack your opponent the safer it is.

Vaqual · March 14

Even if every player would decide to put on speed and a gap closer it still wouldn't mean that melee is better. If players decide to counter another play style with the options available in game that simply intended design. Just as there are sometimes claims that Streak is too weak because there is too much speed available. People simply can't stand getting clowned on by certain builds so much, that a large proportion decides to invest into counters against said builds. A ranged player with the same investments into movement and similar kiting skills is easily compensating for the marginal damage gap through better uptimes.

If I had to name the biggest weakness of 2h, it would be the "on-kill" passive slot that offers no additional bonus for fights with little to no kills.

spartaxoxo · March 14

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Melee should outperform all ranged damage. Risk reward. It's just that simple. Right now the difference is not enough.

Weapon skills should hit as hard as class and guild skills. Melee like melee and ranged like ranged.

Ranged is the higher risk playstyle at this point. The higher damage + speed + gap closers + resource restore being stam (vs staves) makes it lower risk than staves and bows.

Disagree.

1. Gap closers cost a lot of resources and need to be slotted and do not do good damage.

2. Bows are stam with movement speed bonus of hasty retreat.

3. The damage difference from dizzy and snipe is miniscule. Both spammables. I think it's 8% on my last test. They used to both have the same cast time as well. I have a post about it here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

4. Reach passive extends range by 5m for anything over 28m positively affecting staves and bows.

5. You can stand on a wall and hit me from up to 40m away. I cant stand on a wall and hit you from 8m away.

6. Thanks to the miracle workers at zos they managed to make dizzy and execute even less reliable than they already were.

7. This isnt an exhausted list, rather an illustrative list of why melee damage should be buffed.

So, to summarize, i have to slot skills and/or spend half my resources to chase you down. And when i do you can still hit me as hard or almost as hard as I can hit you, sometimes harder, with added crit and all your resources intact as a bonus.

Nope.

All spells need to be slotted too. Wall fighting is a joke. When you're actually the real fighting occurs, getting close and maintaining that closeness to ranged users is trivial thanks to speed and gap closers. Complaining that something that greatly reduces the disadvantages inherent to your range doesn't also have a lot of damage is wild.

And that's especially true in BGs and IC. The damage bonus may not be large but it's enough to win fights, especially when melee greatly wins on counterplay to CC.

Range not being inferior in every possible scenario =/= melee isn't just better overall.

ETA
I'm not saying that 2H doesn't have any issues or that weapon skills in general couldn't use some tuning. Because they do need that, especially when it comes to offense (sword and board, ice staff, and resto staffs are all better shape than DPS weapon balance). But this idea that melee is oh so much riskier falls flat because speed is crazy in this game.

Disagree as above it is fundamentally safer to attack from far away than it is to attack up close for so, so many reasons. Also, you do not have to slot a gap closer. I do and have to spend resources to use it. The compensation for me having to slot and use that extra skill to fight ranged opponents is not enough.

This is why melee skills do slightly more damage, because even zos understands this. However, the delta is not enough.

No need to spam this post with a back and forth. We can disagree and that's cool, but actual battle irl and in game tend to support my position that the further away you are when you attack your opponent the safer it is.

It is IRL and in other games. But I have a much easier time in this game on my melee characters than on my ranged characters in all aspects of play. I barely play my Bow/Bow character anymore. The only ranged character that feels safer is my lightning staff pet sorc and that's because of shielding and streaking not because of her weapon being ranged. And I feel like streak is the main reason anyone even still feels that way about things. But now everyone can equip streak.

Meanwhile my DW Arcanist that I barely play is on par or better than characters I have played for years with less effort. DW+ Greatsword in PvE is crazy strong too.

Bows and staves have lagged behind Dual Wield and to a lesser extent 2H in PvE for a while and I wouldn't want that delta widened any further. Which is honestly my primary concern as a mostly PvE player. Although I agree that some of the 2H skills are clunky to use and could use some improvements in that regard. So we're not totally on a different page. I would agree that 2H is weaker than DW as well.

Thumbless_Bot · March 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Melee should outperform all ranged damage. Risk reward. It's just that simple. Right now the difference is not enough.

Weapon skills should hit as hard as class and guild skills. Melee like melee and ranged like ranged.

Ranged is the higher risk playstyle at this point. The higher damage + speed + gap closers + resource restore being stam (vs staves) makes it lower risk than staves and bows.

Disagree.

1. Gap closers cost a lot of resources and need to be slotted and do not do good damage.

2. Bows are stam with movement speed bonus of hasty retreat.

3. The damage difference from dizzy and snipe is miniscule. Both spammables. I think it's 8% on my last test. They used to both have the same cast time as well. I have a post about it here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

4. Reach passive extends range by 5m for anything over 28m positively affecting staves and bows.

5. You can stand on a wall and hit me from up to 40m away. I cant stand on a wall and hit you from 8m away.

6. Thanks to the miracle workers at zos they managed to make dizzy and execute even less reliable than they already were.

7. This isnt an exhausted list, rather an illustrative list of why melee damage should be buffed.

So, to summarize, i have to slot skills and/or spend half my resources to chase you down. And when i do you can still hit me as hard or almost as hard as I can hit you, sometimes harder, with added crit and all your resources intact as a bonus.

Nope.

All spells need to be slotted too. Wall fighting is a joke. When you're actually the real fighting occurs, getting close and maintaining that closeness to ranged users is trivial thanks to speed and gap closers. Complaining that something that greatly reduces the disadvantages inherent to your range doesn't also have a lot of damage is wild.

And that's especially true in BGs and IC. The damage bonus may not be large but it's enough to win fights, especially when melee greatly wins on counterplay to CC.

Range not being inferior in every possible scenario =/= melee isn't just better overall.

ETA
I'm not saying that 2H doesn't have any issues or that weapon skills in general couldn't use some tuning. Because they do need that, especially when it comes to offense (sword and board, ice staff, and resto staffs are all better shape than DPS weapon balance). But this idea that melee is oh so much riskier falls flat because speed is crazy in this game.

Disagree as above it is fundamentally safer to attack from far away than it is to attack up close for so, so many reasons. Also, you do not have to slot a gap closer. I do and have to spend resources to use it. The compensation for me having to slot and use that extra skill to fight ranged opponents is not enough.

This is why melee skills do slightly more damage, because even zos understands this. However, the delta is not enough.

No need to spam this post with a back and forth. We can disagree and that's cool, but actual battle irl and in game tend to support my position that the further away you are when you attack your opponent the safer it is.

It is IRL and in other games. But I have a much easier time in this game on my melee characters than on my ranged characters in all aspects of play. I barely play my Bow/Bow character anymore. The only ranged character that feels safer is my lightning staff pet sorc and that's because of shielding and streaking not because of her weapon being ranged. And I feel like streak is the main reason anyone even still feels that way about things. But now everyone can equip streak.

Meanwhile my DW Arcanist that I barely play is on par or better than characters I have played for years with less effort. DW+ Greatsword in PvE is crazy strong too.

Bows and staves have lagged behind Dual Wield and to a lesser extent 2H in PvE for a while and I wouldn't want that delta widened any further. Which is honestly my primary concern as a mostly PvE player. Although I agree that some of the 2H skills are clunky to use and could use some improvements in that regard. So we're not totally on a different page. I would agree that 2H is weaker than DW as well.

I understand where you are coming from. My perspective is purely pvp. I am not too savvy on pve tbh.

I also only tank with basically my pvp setup in pve unless I am doing IA. Even then though I switch to staff in IA for ranged damage loke the explosion scribed skill.

Remathilis · March 15

Honestly, I want blade and blunt (and the 2h equivalent) gone because the only viable DPS setup for the last few years is double daggers and 2hn or staff on back. So every character looks/feels like a rogue/wizard unless your a HA build. I want to again have bow or great axe or even dual swords be viable just so that characters can feel different and most weapons are worth getting.