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Veteran Bots?
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ciannait✭✭✭0 -
Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭Kyle_Roberts wrote: »You can clearly see this guy got his ass handed to him :P
I bet there was some quality rage that day.
Mmmm, yummy, tasty rage. More please...
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Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭Considering their inability to restore lost items, I fear you are overestimating what ZOS truly can track. Yes, in other games it was done that way, but here they haven't got a character editor even. I have my doubts they can track items, since they can't even track movement.
I fear they dropped every ballast to get the mega server working and left it wide open for dupes, bots and hacks."You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Youre confusing inability with lack of desire.
Its not that they cant, its that they wont.
Difference.
Not keeping information basically means "not a single techie there should have a high school diploma" and this is last on the probability list.1 -
Jankstar✭✭✭Any item generated in game can be tracked. Its how duplicated items can be identified and removed.
Its also how they trace gold and item trades.
That's good, then they will be able to tell when a mistake has been made. I would rather have accounts banned then cleared than let the problem persist. This isn't real life where we have to worry about people getting hurt by being to strict, it is just a video game so they can make mistakes.0 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »
Not really.
And you *can* trace an item every time its changed hands.
Person A buys gold. Ises that to buy an item from person B. B buys an item from C, C buys from D.
Ban qave goes out.
A, B, C and D get banned for having tainted currency.
This isnt new and games have been doing it at least since D2.
Records arent held forever obviously, but they *are* held for a time.
Okay for example, each gold piece is an item. You're saying if I get 303 gold from a quest, for the sake of this example, the gold is numbered Gold Piece #0028838288 to #0028838590. I spend 100 gold to buy a gem in trade and so the seller gets Gold Piece #0028838300 to #0028838399. Then he spends those Gold Pieces on something else. The record for each of those Gold Pieces will continue to grow. At least until a gold sink eats it. Nah.0 -
ciannait✭✭✭In other games, once a piece of gold is spent, it's "removed" from the game, ie, if you spend money with an NPC that gold piece no longer exists. I obviously can't speak to ESO's architecture but I would think gold pieces would only be tracked so far as being spent with an NPC, not forever.0
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Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »wrlifeboil wrote: »
Not really.
And you *can* trace an item every time its changed hands.
Person A buys gold. Ises that to buy an item from person B. B buys an item from C, C buys from D.
Ban qave goes out.
A, B, C and D get banned for having tainted currency.
This isnt new and games have been doing it at least since D2.
Records arent held forever obviously, but they *are* held for a time.
Okay for example, each gold piece is an item. You're saying if I get 303 gold from a quest, for the sake of this example, the gold is numbered Gold Piece #0028838288 to #0028838590. I spend 100 gold to buy a gem in trade and so the seller gets Gold Piece #0028838300 to #0028838399. Then he spends those Gold Pieces on something else. The record for each of those Gold Pieces will continue to grow. At least until a gold sink eats it. Nah.
I get your point but it would have to be an incredibly bad dbase design to work that way - a decent design that considers space will be better in both storing tables and how it deals with cross references and ways to programmatically access them all. Part of that involves aggregating transactions separately from the follow on transactions.1 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭SuraklinPrime wrote: »wrlifeboil wrote: »wrlifeboil wrote: »
Not really.
And you *can* trace an item every time its changed hands.
Person A buys gold. Ises that to buy an item from person B. B buys an item from C, C buys from D.
Ban qave goes out.
A, B, C and D get banned for having tainted currency.
This isnt new and games have been doing it at least since D2.
Records arent held forever obviously, but they *are* held for a time.
Okay for example, each gold piece is an item. You're saying if I get 303 gold from a quest, for the sake of this example, the gold is numbered Gold Piece #0028838288 to #0028838590. I spend 100 gold to buy a gem in trade and so the seller gets Gold Piece #0028838300 to #0028838399. Then he spends those Gold Pieces on something else. The record for each of those Gold Pieces will continue to grow. At least until a gold sink eats it. Nah.
I get your point but it would have to be an incredibly bad dbase design to work that way - a decent design that considers space will be better in both storing tables and how it deals with cross references and ways to programmatically access them all. Part of that involves aggregating transactions separately from the follow on transactions.
I'm sure they can follow the chain of transactions but do you think ZOS tracks every item in the game?0 -
ciannait✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »
I'm sure they can follow the chain of transactions but do you think ZOS tracks every item in the game?
I would be very surprised if every item in the game weren't tracked. How else could it be accounted for / displayed / etc? Although it might explain the apparent ease with which people have been duping items.
Let's just say, if every item in the game weren't tracked, it'd be very poor design.
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Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »wrlifeboil wrote: »wrlifeboil wrote: »
Not really.
And you *can* trace an item every time its changed hands.
Person A buys gold. Ises that to buy an item from person B. B buys an item from C, C buys from D.
Ban qave goes out.
A, B, C and D get banned for having tainted currency.
This isnt new and games have been doing it at least since D2.
Records arent held forever obviously, but they *are* held for a time.
Okay for example, each gold piece is an item. You're saying if I get 303 gold from a quest, for the sake of this example, the gold is numbered Gold Piece #0028838288 to #0028838590. I spend 100 gold to buy a gem in trade and so the seller gets Gold Piece #0028838300 to #0028838399. Then he spends those Gold Pieces on something else. The record for each of those Gold Pieces will continue to grow. At least until a gold sink eats it. Nah.
I get your point but it would have to be an incredibly bad dbase design to work that way - a decent design that considers space will be better in both storing tables and how it deals with cross references and ways to programmatically access them all. Part of that involves aggregating transactions separately from the follow on transactions.
I'm sure they can follow the chain of transactions but do you think ZOS tracks every item in the game?
I think they *can* - I do not think they will.
I think they will dump us PC players and use us as a beta to get the console version right - then they will shut this version of the game and spit in our faces.2 -
reggielee✭✭✭✭the higher lvl I go the more leveling bot packs I see, node bots seem down nowMama always said the fastest way to a man's heart is through his chest.0 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »
I'm sure they can follow the chain of transactions but do you think ZOS tracks every item in the game?
I would be very surprised if every item in the game weren't tracked. How else could it be accounted for / displayed / etc? Although it might explain the apparent ease with which people have been duping items.
Let's just say, if every item in the game weren't tracked, it'd be very poor design.
Yeah, I wasn't clear enough apparently. More specifically can they track every unique gold piece as it passes through each hand? I'm picturing a red dye pack going off in a bank robber's stash. Each bill with the dye is tainted. So the equivalent would be when game gold goes into a gold seller account, the red dye would be the userid of the gold seller?0 -
ciannait✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »wrlifeboil wrote: »
I'm sure they can follow the chain of transactions but do you think ZOS tracks every item in the game?
I would be very surprised if every item in the game weren't tracked. How else could it be accounted for / displayed / etc? Although it might explain the apparent ease with which people have been duping items.
Let's just say, if every item in the game weren't tracked, it'd be very poor design.
Yeah, I wasn't clear enough apparently. More specifically can they track every unique gold piece as it passes through each hand? I'm picturing a red dye pack going off in a bank robber's stash. Each bill with the dye is tainted. So the equivalent would be when game gold goes into a gold seller account, the red dye would be the userid of the gold seller?
In other cases I've seen - yes, until that piece is "sunk" with an NPC. Again, YMMV as we've seen ZOS uses less-than-adequate security and design across the board, however.
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Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭Youre confusing inability with lack of desire.
Its not that they cant, its that they wont.
Difference.
Not keeping information basically means "not a single techie there should have a high school diploma" and this is last on the probability list.
I believe it's more a case of "every techie who knows someone with a diploma was screaming" when they decided to make the DB as slim as possible so it won't bog down the servers anymore.
Saying they leave us deliberately in this mess is even more insulting than disabling security measures to ship early. They can't use, what they don't have. Or can't get running with their new tech.
Why do you think we see such bad server performance lately? Because we're being flooded by new players? Nope, it's their desperate try to get the tracking up and running again without blowing everything up."You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"1 -
Corithna✭✭✭✭✭SuraklinPrime wrote: »I'm pretty sure I have seen a couple of harvest bots sporting VR1 levels this evening - tell tale sign of standing patiently waiting for you if you get to a node before them and harvest but don't collect.
Do you have to beat the Main Quest to get to VR1 or does hitting level 50 automatically give you the title?
If we have 'genuine' VR level bots then we're going to see the VR levels invaded too.
Hitting level 50 gives you VR1. Completing the storyline/downing mannimarco and molag bol grants you access to the other factions 50+, 50++ content.
Harvest bots that farm a single point are by far the most simple form of botting available to players. Any decent gaming keyboard can offer players up the functionality needed to spam E at whatever interval while leaving a character pointed at a known spawn point. They are also the easiest to catch programatically from a purely metrics point of view. They are also the least worrying because they tend to only run while a player is away from their computer sleeping, working, etc. But these characters still see a very good amount of real play time. And the financial benefits versus the risks of loosing all the work a player has put into a character should be enough to give most people a reason to think long and hard before engaging in such activities.
The ones that are the real problem are those setup by the gold spammers/power levelers who make the majority of their real world profits off criminal activity such as indentity theft, credit card theft, etc using the lure of easy in game items and gold for pennies on the hour of genuine game play. The fact is that these fiends will gladly take your money, empty out your bank account, take your in game account strip it of everything then use it to either spam their own services and or bot farm more product for themselves. So that they can start the whole process over again.
There is no interest by these individuals to actually play the game or beat any kind of content. However they are certainly happy take a players account that already has such access and leverage it for all it's worth while it's under their control.
As far as tracking each piece of gold or each individual item no it would never work that way simply because there would be no frame of reference. What is tracked quite obviously is what each account does transaction wise. Just like your bank account, no one sits there and says "oh these three pennies came from bank of america and that one over there came from citibank, etc" No you make your deposits, pay your bills, make withdrawals and process purchases. Each transaction is kept as a record on the account, but no each penny doesn't see a list of everyone who ever held it.
This isn't bitcoin which has a fixed finite amount of currency that was initially generated with each coin having a unique identifier. But what is recorded is that character "so and so" picked item "X" from harvest node 39023 at 23:03:31 hours, then picked item "J" from harvest node 39023 at 23:04:02 hours, etc. Enough identical entries on what nodes are being harvested is part of the system that's being worked on to catch these guys. It's only natural to allow a certain period of time to pass prior to bringing overt measures into practice while the game is still brand new and still shaking down it's launch Jitters.
And no the recent performance issues have not been from a plethora of new players but neither is it for building a massive tracking system either. Back up upgrades and software installations in preparation for the new adventure zone are IMO, the most likely reason we are seeing these lag spikes pop up every now and then. Don't worry these guys will be taken care of soon enough. I'm glad they are taking their time in order to do it right and in a way that will have a lasting and effective means of countering these creeps without as they put it, taking draconian measures that would hurt the honest player.Edited by Corithna on May 17, 2014 10:55AMFor all the millions of pages of codified law we have enacted in this nation alone, all of it, every word, sentence, paragraph and nuance, is steeped in the singular idea of this:
"Be good to one another."1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭seneferab16_ESO wrote: »I had a close friend who used to bot Diablo; I almost threw up on him when he told me that. For him it was never about the money, all about being sneaky and trolling dem devs. He couldn't care less about the community or the game.
Wow... I've got a dilemma here. My pathological hatred of botters is at war with my need for schadenfreude against Blizzard.2 -
Dita✭✭✭Emperor wghsknyijkk Bot ?Edited by Dita on May 17, 2014 11:11AM"Begun the Bot Wars has"2 -
Thalmar✭✭✭✭Some people use bots when they go work, school etc. I saw many legit players in wow forums that mention they leveled to 90 with bots. They play while they can and when take breaks leave the bots do the job for them.0
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seneferab16_ESO✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »seneferab16_ESO wrote: »I had a close friend who used to bot Diablo; I almost threw up on him when he told me that. For him it was never about the money, all about being sneaky and trolling dem devs. He couldn't care less about the community or the game.
Wow... I've got a dilemma here. My pathological hatred of botters is at war with my need for schadenfreude against Blizzard.
Hahaha, yeah. It was the only reason I let it go.
Aerin Treerunner, pre dinner snack0 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There are fully-leveled bots out there. I know of at least one who had leveled fifteen characters to Level 50.
I'd post more, but when I did so yesterday a mod deleted the post, claiming it was advertising. Guess ignorance is bliss.
Lvl 50 is far from fully leveled. In fact lvl 50 is only 1/3 of the journey.
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rowdog✭wrlifeboil wrote: »
Not really.
And you *can* trace an item every time its changed hands.
Person A buys gold. Ises that to buy an item from person B. B buys an item from C, C buys from D.
Ban qave goes out.
A, B, C and D get banned for having tainted currency.
This isnt new and games have been doing it at least since D2.
Records arent held forever obviously, but they *are* held for a time.
Well, you're mostly wrong about Diablo 2. Prior to version 1.09 items did NOT have a UUID which was a major reason there was such a problem with duping (think SOJ). 1.09 added UUIDs to most types of items but even then, "common" things like gold pieces, pots, and gems still don't have UUIDs.
Since then, game companies have "learned from Diablo" that you need to use UUIDs or your game will be ruined by duping. Now, the question is, how far does ESO go with UUIDs? Sure, the legendary gear surely has UUIDs but the overhead of generating UUIDs and tracking the transactions of every single piece of gold might have lead ESO to follow Blizzard's lead when it comes to "simple items".
Unless you've read the code or heard it straight from the devs, please don't assert your speculation as "Truth".0 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alphashado wrote: »There are fully-leveled bots out there. I know of at least one who had leveled fifteen characters to Level 50.
I'd post more, but when I did so yesterday a mod deleted the post, claiming it was advertising. Guess ignorance is bliss.
Lvl 50 is far from fully leveled. In fact lvl 50 is only 1/3 of the journey.
Okay, but color me concerned that a cat was bragging about leveling 15 of his bots to Level 50 within the time that the game was released.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"0 -
hauke✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »
lol you don t have a clue what computing power is normal today, and sure don t have a clue what NSA computing power is like today, that does not need supercomputers, just a PC, NSA can do stuff you would not belive
Edited by hauke on May 17, 2014 8:07PM0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »
Not really.
And you *can* trace an item every time its changed hands.
Person A buys gold. Ises that to buy an item from person B. B buys an item from C, C buys from D.
Ban qave goes out.
A, B, C and D get banned for having tainted currency.
This isnt new and games have been doing it at least since D2.
Records arent held forever obviously, but they *are* held for a time.
Well, you're mostly wrong about Diablo 2. Prior to version 1.09 items did NOT have a UUID which was a major reason there was such a problem with duping (think SOJ). 1.09 added UUIDs to most types of items but even then, "common" things like gold pieces, pots, and gems still don't have UUIDs.
Since then, game companies have "learned from Diablo" that you need to use UUIDs or your game will be ruined by duping. Now, the question is, how far does ESO go with UUIDs? Sure, the legendary gear surely has UUIDs but the overhead of generating UUIDs and tracking the transactions of every single piece of gold might have lead ESO to follow Blizzard's lead when it comes to "simple items".
Unless you've read the code or heard it straight from the devs, please don't assert your speculation as "Truth".
Decompiling the code and reading it is the easy part.
And you vastly misunderstand how easy it actually is to do these things.
Sure, *you* may have trouble keeping track of item identifiers but a code wont.0 -
rowdog✭Decompiling the code and reading it is the easy part.
And you vastly misunderstand how easy it actually is to do these things.
Sure, *you* may have trouble keeping track of item identifiers but a code wont.
I've been programming since the 70's so I'm pretty sure I have a reasonable understanding of what's involved here.3 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭Decompiling the code and reading it is the easy part.
And you vastly misunderstand how easy it actually is to do these things.
Sure, *you* may have trouble keeping track of item identifiers but a code wont.
I've been programming since the 70's so I'm pretty sure I have a reasonable understanding of what's involved here.
Think most who play this game haven't even been alive since the 70s, so if you've been programming since then - my guess is that you started out on punch-card systems.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Decompiling the code and reading it is the easy part.
And you vastly misunderstand how easy it actually is to do these things.
Sure, *you* may have trouble keeping track of item identifiers but a code wont.
I've been programming since the 70's so I'm pretty sure I have a reasonable understanding of what's involved here.
Just because youve been coding since the 70s doesnt necessarily mean you know a lick about modern systems.0 -
rowdog✭Decompiling the code and reading it is the easy part.
And you vastly misunderstand how easy it actually is to do these things.
Sure, *you* may have trouble keeping track of item identifiers but a code wont.
I've been programming since the 70's so I'm pretty sure I have a reasonable understanding of what's involved here.
Just because youve been coding since the 70s doesnt necessarily mean you know a lick about modern systems.
If you're seriously suggesting that somehow the overhead of tracking the UUID of every piece of gold has somehow vanished in the 5 years I've been retired, well, I would love to see that miracle of programming wizardry.
If that's not what you're up to, I'm not sure what you actually have to say to me besides "you're old", which is true.
Edit: i'm rather OCD and pedantic and I'm sorry I "called you on the carpet" about Diablo 2. I just happen to be extremely familiar with that case and let myself get way to OCD about it all, since it's pretty irrelevant, even if I can recite version numbers.Edited by rowdog on May 20, 2014 5:37AM1