Please Make Werewolves Bigger in Update 50

coop500 · March 10

I was listening to the stream and something I wanted to bring up is the fact that the devs declared that werewolves will NOT be any bigger, and actually with the new model being overall skinnier, yet at the same height, I feel like us as the player will feel even SMALLER than we already do. I really don't think this is wise, because the werewolf honestly feels small already, especially standing near nord and high elf NPCs, or even playing a nord or high elf yourself, you're actually SHRINKING when you transform, which is bonkers to me.

So PLEASE please consider making the werewolf just a bit taller. We know it's not game breaking, vampires and necromancers get a transformation ability that makes them ABSURDLY tall. I'm not saying werewolves need to be this big (though I wouldn't complain if they were, haha) but I really think they deserve a small boost in height because being smaller than basic quest NPCs isn't a great feeling if you're trying to showcase us becoming a truly terrifying monster that devours their foes.

Updating the post with current screenshots of the model we DO have to show the issue, standing next to everyone's favorite lich khajiit.

First character is my main actual werewolf character, Darther Morrell, who's a max height male breton.

And then this is him transformed into a werewolf.

His shoulders are lower than Zerith's!! Zerith is big, but he's not THAT big, and for the sake of discussion, I brought out my male high elf as well. I don't really play him but he'll serve the purpose well enough.

And then werewolf form again.

Now imagine this model replaced with something skinnier and less chunky, yet still the same height. This would not fulfill the 'power fantasy' of playing a werewolf, not at all.

Update: I was also reminded that Polymorphs exist, and luckily I have the troll one to use as visual reference.
Players are able to run around this big all the time with no issues with collision or whatnot. Werewolf players should be able to at least get CLOSE to this height.

And using the Beast Personality to achieve the hunched over look that werewolves will have.

coop500 · March 10

Also I admit I am not SUPER fond of the new model, I'll share some screenshots from the stream until people come up with better. But I really don't like how they shortened the limbs and removed SO MUCH of the fur, it looks far too much like a hyena or gnoll rather than a werewolf.

The eye placement is also not logical, try to imagine what this thing's skull would look like... The eyes need to be higher.

But longer limbs is such a huge staple in showing off the transformation of becoming a beast, that's why they did this in Skyrim. Having short little human length arms, completely void of fur, is incredibly awkward looking for something that will primarily be attacking with it's claws and teeth.

Ataskir · March 10

Agreed, the beast should look far more monstrous than what we're seeing at the moment. And yeah, not nearly enough fur in some places.

I'm a fan of the mane though, that looks pretty neat. Just hoping this werewolf won't appear underwhelming when standing next to tall races like Nords and Altmer.

Soarora · March 10

I think it was mentioned that they’re working on adding more fur and such. I can see why people are talking about hyenas though. The chest fur patch is the part to me that’s weird, it’s just a triangle. Could probably blend the fur on the neck and chest out a bit more. Women could have more of a full around-the-neck mane situation.

And I think ideally, werewolf size should scale off your size but I know that’s not how polymorphing/transforming works in this game. So, imo, make them big enough that tall nord/altmer doesn’t shrink.

Edit: Also the ears remind me more of a bat but generally speaking I was happily surprised by what it looks like. It definitely looks like an upgrade! Love the fluffiness and the new legs!

luckiestlycan · March 10

I definitely agree that they should be made larger, and the longer arms is definitly a good shout that I agree with.

I'm personally a fan of having sparser fur, but I do agree that there are areas lacking like around the shoulder/neck area, which I think would help make them look a lil less Hyena like too.

I don't really agree with the eye placement being an isue though, I more so think it's the muzzle/brow length that's throwing the head off for me; this is something I mocked up for the conversation in another thread but I think it's also valid here:

But as I also mentioned elsewhere, I am definitly liking it so far as a Work in Progress, but I'm glad it's not the final result.

coop500 · March 10

I have updated the OP to show the height issue that's already in the game, so that hopefully there can be an easy way to see how this will be even more of a problem once we're given a model that's overall smaller (width wise) and yet the same scale. I have my issues with the model itself but I can possibly live with it IF it was upscaled, but if this thing is coming at the same scale, I'm sorry but we're just gonna feel like someone's small dog with mange.

luckiestlycan · March 10

I knew Werewolf was on the smaller end, and I play werewolf almost exclusivly, but how have I not realised they were THAT small?

Honestly I agree even more so now, Werewolf NEEDS to be larger in U50, or we're gonna look like Werechihuahuas XD

coop500 · March 10

luckiestlycan wrote: »

I knew Werewolf was on the smaller end, and I play werewolf almost exclusivly, but how have I not realised they were THAT small?

Honestly I agree even more so now, Werewolf NEEDS to be larger in U50, or we're gonna look like Werechihuahuas XD

It's something that has bothered me for years LOL. But I'm glad to bring light to it again and show how much they need a height buff.

Alaztor91 · March 10

I think the new model could be a bit taller and not so skinny. The ears and the mane also look weird to me, the first thing that I thought when I saw the new model was the Lion King Hyenas lol.

Emeratis · March 11

I'm actually more neutral/indecisive on werewolf size. My one request is that size is variable based on the humanoid model. For example if I have a max height altmer werewolf and a shorter female breton, I'd hope/like to see the altmer retain some form of height difference in werewolf form compared to the breton. It's been a hot minute since I leveled werewolf on alts but I'm pretty sure right now my my altmer and bosmer would look about the same size in werewolf form which is a little bit jarring as one gains a bit of height but the other does not and the size variance could add some more flavor to werewolf appearance. Irl animals and humans both have height/size variance so this would be a cool flavorful nod that gives some of your humanoid appearance influence on your werewolf side.

I know someone talking about the new model mentioned the ears of the new model look too elven for them and, thinking about all the times I vented about vampire elf eyes being humanized on curse, it would also be neat if werewolf's model ears had slight variance based on if you were man or mer or beastfolk. Nothing major just a slight change would be cool if that could be in the cards.

coop500 · March 11

Emeratis wrote: »

I'm actually more neutral/indecisive on werewolf size. My one request is that size is variable based on the humanoid model. For example if I have a max height altmer werewolf and a shorter female breton, I'd hope/like to see the altmer retain some form of height difference in werewolf form compared to the breton. It's been a hot minute since I leveled werewolf on alts but I'm pretty sure right now my my altmer and bosmer would look about the same size in werewolf form which is a little bit jarring as one gains a bit of height but the other does not and the size variance could add some more flavor to werewolf appearance. Irl animals and humans both have height/size variance so this would be a cool flavorful nod that gives some of your humanoid appearance influence on your werewolf side.

I know someone talking about the new model mentioned the ears of the new model look too elven for them and, thinking about all the times I vented about vampire elf eyes being humanized on curse, it would also be neat if werewolf's model ears had slight variance based on if you were man or mer or beastfolk. Nothing major just a slight change would be cool if that could be in the cards.

You can see the screenshots in my post, my breton and high elf are the same size when transformed and BOTH shrink in height which is what I'm complaining about.
Dynamic height would be cool but only if the model is made taller overall first. I'm sticking with winnable battles here.

Arunei · March 11

I was telling a friend that the WIP WW model looks a lot like a hyena, heh. The shoulders sloping into the neck, the mane, and head all look more like something you'd see in a hyena than a wolf, though in terms of the sloping shoulders that could just be because of the side view posture. Mind you I don't hate it, I think it looks neat, but it definitely strikes me more as Werehyena than Werewolf. But then it is still a WIP so who knows what the final thing will look like.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Is there a way to pass on the feedback of making the model bigger, even if just a little bit? Especially if they decide to make the female model smaller than the male as part of the dimorphism to tell them apart from males (I know it wasn't mentioned as one of the potential differences, but just in case it DOES get settled on as one). WW models can't wear Gear or use Weapons or Mounts or anything that would need to be scaled with their size other than potentially the hitboxes of Skills? And if Skills are already being reworked like was mentioned, well, would tweaking the hotboxes (if that's a problem) be feasible?

JimT722 · March 11

I think they for the most part look great. They remind me more of the werewolves from Bloodmoon instead of the brutish werewolves from Skyrim. I'm not sold on the chest hair but they did a really good job overall.

Techwolf_Lupindo · March 11

Looking at the previews now, I notice the ears on the new modle looks like a bat and not a wolf, a werebat instead.

luckiestlycan · March 11

Arunei wrote: »

Especially if they decide to make the female model smaller than the male as part of the dimorphism to tell them apart from males

Gods please no, I already don't like that they've said they're making the female model have less muscle, I really hope they don't make them shorter too T-T

coop500 · March 11

Arunei wrote: »

I was telling a friend that the WIP WW model looks a lot like a hyena, heh. The shoulders sloping into the neck, the mane, and head all look more like something you'd see in a hyena than a wolf, though in terms of the sloping shoulders that could just be because of the side view posture. Mind you I don't hate it, I think it looks neat, but it definitely strikes me more as Werehyena than Werewolf. But then it is still a WIP so who knows what the final thing will look like.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Is there a way to pass on the feedback of making the model bigger, even if just a little bit? Especially if they decide to make the female model smaller than the male as part of the dimorphism to tell them apart from males (I know it wasn't mentioned as one of the potential differences, but just in case it DOES get settled on as one). WW models can't wear Gear or use Weapons or Mounts or anything that would need to be scaled with their size other than potentially the hitboxes of Skills? And if Skills are already being reworked like was mentioned, well, would tweaking the hotboxes (if that's a problem) be feasible?

We also gotta remember that ults like the vampire and necromancer one exist, in which the player like doubles in size seemingly to no issue besides the slow movement and werewolves are going to have their movement speed buffed, so it really should be an easy change to bump their size up to at least not SHRINK when you transform.

Thanks for pinging staff, I truly hope it's taken into consideration because it's a bit silly as it stands.

coop500 · March 11

I was also just reminded that Polymorphs exist, and many of these also make the player much bigger than normally possible. Not as big as the vampire/necromancer ultimate, but still bigger. So this isn't a technical limitation, just a very bizarre creative one.

I also want to bring up another detail before someone comes in and points out the 'hunching over' pose of the werewolf making it shorter. (It's a monster, it should be bigger even when hunching, but ignoring that for the time being...)

Werewolves, like most animals with legs in that shape, are walking on their toes. This means the ankle is actually where that first bend is partway up the leg. Thus when a human turns, they should become TALLER, and at the very least, that height increase of your foot being so far extended into that shape should easily offset any height loss by hunching.

CastleCrasher · March 12

Ye，new model look like Gnoll.That horsehair something look nice.I will miss single game u can custom size.

Well,at least buff werewolf can bite in PvP.

noblecron · March 12

Definately not enough fur in some places and a little larger wouldn't hurt. I get they can't make it tooo big cause of overland locations like delves but something about the height of the wraith of crows polymorph wouldn't be too bad

coop500 · March 12

noblecron wrote: »

Definately not enough fur in some places and a little larger wouldn't hurt. I get they can't make it tooo big cause of overland locations like delves but something about the height of the wraith of crows polymorph wouldn't be too bad

The werewolf should have no issue being about this tall without any collision issues.

The Minotaur polymorph is the same height as this frost troll, I don't own any other monster polymorphs and don't know how big the Wrath of Crows one is, but I'll take anything.

I also put on the Beast personality to achieve a similar hunched over look.

xencthlu · March 13

Haha, I was the one in stream chat asking after werewolf heights. Yeah, the werewolf "class" fantasy is that you become much larger! I thought the new werewolf would be closer to the IA werewolf transformation in that way. It seemed like a really obvious area for improvement. It feels thematically dissonant that the vampire transformation looks like it can body the werewolf. When my best friend plays his Bosmer werewolf with my dainty stick-limbed Altmer mage, it looks like she's taking her chihuahua out for a walk. I'm sorry, you can't be monstrously intimidating when it looks like you need a step stool to get the jar off the top shelf!

I'm otherwise pretty happy with the model work so far. It looks like a WIP to me, but I can tell the direction they're going and I think it's solid. I don't think they did themselves any favours with the lighting there, but I'm sure they have better things to do with their time than fixate on the presentation of a quick WIP for their informal monthly stream. I'd definitely rather get unpolished regular previews of development than have to wait an entire quarter for marketing perfect presentations. But the size is maybe the biggest deal for the *feeling* of being a physically imposing monster, perhaps even moreso than any individual wolflike feature. Like, I think if you ask the average person off the street, they would tell you that the Jekyll and Hide transformation a la League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is much more like a werewolf in vibe and feeling than turning into an accurate normal wolf.

Oh, and I'm very excited to hear that we're getting some for gold customisation for werewolf colour! Small amount of work, outsized impact on player enjoyment.

Mathius_Mordred · March 13

Werepoodle LOL.

I mean we already have the Behmoth in the game and the momento which looks epic, why not just use that but make it a little smaller? I've been saying this since they were first introduced, I don't like the new look, it's small, skinny, has bat ears and is about as scary as my missus, hmm on second thoughts...

Faltasë · March 13

Now that y'all mention it, yeah the new werewolf looks less wolfy and more gnolly. I do not like that it looks like a gnol lol. So I agree with everyone else who said that here.

YandereGirlfriend · March 13

A little larger might be good.

But like, you can't have them Werewolf Behemoths for simple gameplay reasons. They would block line-of-sight and obscure fights for any players that you are grouped with (indeed, if tanks already hate the Maw Daedroth then a Behemoth would be completely unplayable) and your hitbox would be galactic and difficult to maneuver around harmful AOEs.

It is one of those things where individual RP has to be compromised because you are potentially playing the game with others.

coop500 · March 13

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A little larger might be good.

But like, you can't have them Werewolf Behemoths for simple gameplay reasons. They would block line-of-sight and obscure fights for any players that you are grouped with (indeed, if tanks already hate the Maw Daedroth then a Behemoth would be completely unplayable) and your hitbox would be galactic and difficult to maneuver around harmful AOEs.

It is one of those things where individual RP has to be compromised because you are potentially playing the game with others.

I never asked them to be that big, and I actually literally showed an example that would be very reasonably sized (the Frost Troll with beast Personality) which everyone can run around as RN and sometimes even with a big ugly banner on their back.

CastleCrasher · March 13

I think size ain't a problem.

YandereGirlfriend · March 13

coop500 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A little larger might be good.

But like, you can't have them Werewolf Behemoths for simple gameplay reasons. They would block line-of-sight and obscure fights for any players that you are grouped with (indeed, if tanks already hate the Maw Daedroth then a Behemoth would be completely unplayable) and your hitbox would be galactic and difficult to maneuver around harmful AOEs.

It is one of those things where individual RP has to be compromised because you are potentially playing the game with others.

I never asked them to be that big, and I actually literally showed an example that would be very reasonably sized (the Frost Troll with beast Personality) which everyone can run around as RN and sometimes even with a big ugly banner on their back.

A poster said, "WW like in the IA" which is literally the WW Behemoth. So....

coop500 · March 13

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A little larger might be good.

But like, you can't have them Werewolf Behemoths for simple gameplay reasons. They would block line-of-sight and obscure fights for any players that you are grouped with (indeed, if tanks already hate the Maw Daedroth then a Behemoth would be completely unplayable) and your hitbox would be galactic and difficult to maneuver around harmful AOEs.

It is one of those things where individual RP has to be compromised because you are potentially playing the game with others.

I never asked them to be that big, and I actually literally showed an example that would be very reasonably sized (the Frost Troll with beast Personality) which everyone can run around as RN and sometimes even with a big ugly banner on their back.

A poster said, "WW like in the IA" which is literally the WW Behemoth. So....

Well that wasn't me... Could just reply directly to that comment.
For the record I agree that size wouldn't work, but I'm tired of being a midget and no change to the model will help if we'll still continue being like 5'6", I'm pretty sure me IRL is taller than the model right now.

There's a happy medium to be had here.

YandereGirlfriend · March 13

coop500 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

A little larger might be good.

But like, you can't have them Werewolf Behemoths for simple gameplay reasons. They would block line-of-sight and obscure fights for any players that you are grouped with (indeed, if tanks already hate the Maw Daedroth then a Behemoth would be completely unplayable) and your hitbox would be galactic and difficult to maneuver around harmful AOEs.

It is one of those things where individual RP has to be compromised because you are potentially playing the game with others.

I never asked them to be that big, and I actually literally showed an example that would be very reasonably sized (the Frost Troll with beast Personality) which everyone can run around as RN and sometimes even with a big ugly banner on their back.

A poster said, "WW like in the IA" which is literally the WW Behemoth. So....

Well that wasn't me... Could just reply directly to that comment.
For the record I agree that size wouldn't work, but I'm tired of being a midget and no change to the model will help if we'll still continue being like 5'6", I'm pretty sure me IRL is taller than the model right now.

There's a happy medium to be had here.

Strong agree!

Ataskir · March 14

Would werewolves being near the size of pahmer-raht be too big? I mean just imagine how menacing it would be to face against werewolves of that size. (Not counting behemoths, those are waaay too big)

Erickson9610 · March 14

I'm pretty sure scaling up the character model doesn't actually affect your collision. You should be able to do everything you could do before with a larger model.