DK now the broken meta in PvP

Avran_Sylt · March 10

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Well, it seems that the "heavy hitting ability" for classes is likely going to be tooltipped around Merciless going forward. (at least until NB gets reworked, and if that changes).

DK's triggers off of hitting an off-balance enemy and has banked charges with a longer reset window that are easy to use in close range, Merciless is ranged. (But then again range really doesn't mean squat in this game with how prevalent mobility and gap-closers are).

Kinda what I expected to happen: DK's are going to be monsters in PvP with their rework (which makes sense if it's the first of the line built around being self-contained in the Assassination subclassing meta).

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

One small thing that might be worth tweaking for Flame Lash is make it require doing damage with the skill to proc the heal; right now it heals just from casting, even if your target dodges the attack. Having your big burst skill avoided like that should prevent the heal from happening.

Yeah, it's actually a higher tooltip than merciless, but at least merciless is based on damage delt, so a well-timed block also blocks the healing. (and said healing is hit twice bc initial damage is halved via battle spirit, and then the healing is halved via battle spirit).

Ah, right, was looking at Grim, seems for my NB the tooltips are 17,129 for Power Lash and 17,704 for Merciless.

SneaK · March 10

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

it’s been one day lol

Pretty sure DKs haven’t been in the spotlight like this since pre 1.6, personally had more fun last night on my DK than I have playing ESO in a loooooong time.

Ahh, that Scalecaller DoT meta, then Daedric Trickery meta, then Master’s Dual Wield meta, were all figments of my imagination.

My apologies good sir.

Yeaaaa but none of that applies solely to DK…

React · March 10

People have to understand the corner that subclassing has backed them into.

Subclassing was introduced with zero regard for balance or powercreep. It gave everyone unfettered access to the strongest possible options for anything they could want. The gap between a meta subclassing build and any pure class (before this DK rework) was enormous. It homogenized the game so heavily that to be competitive in PVP or PVE you'd have to run one of 3-4 meta skill line combinations, and nothing else came close.

It should have never entered the game the way it did. I personally think it shouldn't have been introduced at all, but at the very least it should have had drawbacks and limitations in place to curb the power, or there should have been a large scale balancing pass to ensure all lines were viable at the top level and that pure classes still had a place.

They didn't do this, and the reality is that if they want to make pure classes competitive with subclasses, they can either buff them on the scale they did with this DK rework, or they can nerf/revert subclassing itself.

I personally like the route they're going. I'm happy to spend a few months playing each reworked class as they come, and I think it'll be a refreshing change to try different builds other than storm/assas/animal or similar.

CameraBeardThePirate · March 10

React wrote: »

People have to understand the corner that subclassing has backed them into.

Subclassing was introduced with zero regard for balance or powercreep. It gave everyone unfettered access to the strongest possible options for anything they could want. The gap between a meta subclassing build and any pure class (before this DK rework) was enormous. It homogenized the game so heavily that to be competitive in PVP or PVE you'd have to run one of 3-4 meta skill line combinations, and nothing else came close.

It should have never entered the game the way it did. I personally think it shouldn't have been introduced at all, but at the very least it should have had drawbacks and limitations in place to curb the power, or there should have been a large scale balancing pass to ensure all lines were viable at the top level and that pure classes still had a place.

They didn't do this, and the reality is that if they want to make pure classes competitive with subclasses, they can either buff them on the scale they did with this DK rework, or they can nerf/revert subclassing itself.

I personally like the route they're going. I'm happy to spend a few months playing each reworked class as they come, and I think it'll be a refreshing change to try different builds other than storm/assas/animal or similar.

Amen.

So what if DK is a bit overtuned? Prior to Subclassing, the meta was dead stagnant for years (basically since U35). Subclassing may have changed the meta, but it made things so unbelievably homogenous. You pick a delayed burst or crit damage line, Assassination, and Storm Calling. That's it, that was the meta. For PvE, you pick a strong DoT/passive line, Assassination, and Tome. Things were so ridiculously bland.

I'd much rather have a new flavor of the month class when each one gets reworked. I don't mind if everyone starts playing that one class because at least it'll change with every update that comes instead of remaining in the most bland, samey set of patches this game has ever seen.

El_Borracho · March 10

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

So we are just going to ignore that you have to meet multiple the conditions to get a stacked Flame Lash and pretend its a spammable where you get 11K+ damage with every strike. "Just get a heavy attack to cause off balance and keep gaining stacks then get back in melee range to use the stacked lash. "

This is why people are tired of the "nerf everything" crowd.

I vote for a nerf on nerfing.

I second that emotion.

nightbringer1993 · March 10

I knew I would feel bad with that patch but not that bad.

It feels like we are forced into that class.

And each patch will have same feeling, but the last refreshed class will suffer from it. I won’t touch that stupid warden class though, might try the sorc but Necro is seriously more in need. What the hell was going on in the head of the devs doing such order, and worst , doing classes one by one will severely hurt class balance.

This game is doomed for at least two years if things remain that way, and I will still consider ZOS scammers for what they did to Necro.

BardokRedSnow · March 10

Radiate77 wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

So we are just going to ignore that you have to meet multiple the conditions to get a stacked Flame Lash and pretend its a spammable where you get 11K+ damage with every strike. "Just get a heavy attack to cause off balance and keep gaining stacks then get back in melee range to use the stacked lash. "

This is why people are tired of the "nerf everything" crowd.

I vote for a nerf on nerfing.

Right on brother man, let’s give everyone the same power as Dragonknight.

They shouldnt have the same power, or else the whole balancing act with subclassing is null and void. They should however be equally viable in pve and pvp for the roles those classes were designed around.

A nightblade for instance shouldn't be equally as viable as DK as front line fighters, unless they subclass to play that way. At least thats how I view proper balance.

BardokRedSnow · March 10

SneaK wrote: »

it’s been one day lol

Pretty sure DKs haven’t been in the spotlight like this since pre 1.6, personally had more fun last night on my DK than I have playing ESO in a loooooong time.

This is how it always is for DK lmao anytime Zos lets us eat the forums line up to snatch our plate.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

So we are just going to ignore that you have to meet multiple the conditions to get a stacked Flame Lash and pretend its a spammable where you get 11K+ damage with every strike. "Just get a heavy attack to cause off balance and keep gaining stacks then get back in melee range to use the stacked lash. "

This is why people are tired of the "nerf everything" crowd.

I vote for a nerf on nerfing.

Right on brother man, let’s give everyone the same power as Dragonknight.

Buff 2handed damage please. No reason someone 40m away should be able to hit me as hard as I can hit them from 7m away.

Agreed, agreed, agreed. The range spam is obnoxious. Though dk wings helps with that. My favorite skill improvement, the added utility to wings is amazing, was dead for so long

Thumbless_Bot · March 10

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

So we are just going to ignore that you have to meet multiple the conditions to get a stacked Flame Lash and pretend its a spammable where you get 11K+ damage with every strike. "Just get a heavy attack to cause off balance and keep gaining stacks then get back in melee range to use the stacked lash. "

This is why people are tired of the "nerf everything" crowd.

I vote for a nerf on nerfing.

Right on brother man, let’s give everyone the same power as Dragonknight.

They shouldnt have the same power, or else the whole balancing act with subclassing is null and void. They should however be equally viable in pve and pvp for the roles those classes were designed around.

A nightblade for instance shouldn't be equally as viable as DK as front line fighters, unless they subclass to play that way. At least thats how I view proper balance.

Power means a lot of things. However, uniqueness tends to bleed into broken metas. This is why we have everyone running around with streak and spec bow equipped. Nothing else compares to these skills and that is plainly wrong.

Ive said this before but it is really not skill lines but specific skills.

The answer isnt to take spec bow away or nerf the damage.

The answer is to make it so other classes have a skill that hits this hard, or can evade and stun at the same time, can provide insane passive crit or weapons damage and recovery (storm calling). Something to make it competitve and it can't be ultimates. Though these probably need a look too.

Zos i think is trying to do that with dk... I could be wrong. But nerfing stuff now before we see what we get in 18 months is a bad idea imo.

albertberku · March 10

Those skill and set descriptions getting really awkward. When you need to describe a skill with a whole paragraph then it is a bit too much complicated.

-> When you use X A times you get B times C. And then you turn around and use C you become Y seconds D. If you perform a F and jump and then do a perfect 360 around yourself half of D are consumed and you get the condition Z. In this condition you be F for G seconds. And if you do a backflip there you transform to L having H stacks of A giving you J% of that stacks as Weapon Dmg...

This is how reading some skills' description feel like. It is a video game, you suppose to press A and then send a projectile or whatsoever.

hoangdz · March 10

Great, DK mains are rejoicing while people maining other classes and want to remain pure class will now have to deal with both subclassed meta builds AND the new OP DK. More reason to either quit until their class gets buffed or play the meta themselves. My stamsorc has always been able to deal with meta subclass builds and could stand a chance vs them. Not the case with U49 DK. Every fight vs DK is obnoxious where my opponent is the one controlling the tempo. Infinite sustain with Inhale (which is an issue I raised in another thread), aids 1 shot combo with Shattering, and OP Molten. I mean look at this crap:

That is Pelican (most of you know him already) hitting me for a 10k crit Molten Whip. I had 32k spell resist, 4.5k crit resist, no vamp (so no extra flame damage taken), in 3 defensive blue CPs, with Major and Minor Maim + Major and Minor Protection. People hit me for 8-9k bows WITH Incap debuff on this, mind you.

Now I have to build against DKs AND subclass meta builds, as if it's not already hard to build against subclassed players already.

ZOS should have never rolled out 1 class buff at a time, because it's pathetic to be a Sorc/Necro main and waiting at least a year until your class gets buffed. Meanwhile, you're getting farmed by everyone on DK. Pathetic lol

Twohothardware · March 10

So what you're saying is DK is doing exactly the right amount of damage and now they just need to bring the rest of the classes up to that level.

Survivability in Cyrodiil, especially groups with healers, is way way WAY too high and has been for a while and it's about time the time to kill gets adjusted.

Radiate77 · March 10

Twohothardware wrote: »

So what you're saying is DK is doing exactly the right amount of damage and now they just need to bring the rest of the classes up to that level.

Survivability in Cyrodiil, especially groups with healers, is way way WAY too high and has been for a while and it's about time the time to kill gets adjusted.

Can confirm, I was in a Battleground last night and matched up with my favorite Vampiric healer and none of us could be touched until a DK popped Corrosive, and that trick only worked once.

The entire enemy team was made up of sweaty meta chasers on Dragonknights.

Healing is still very strong, and honestly, is the only chance you have against a DoT meta.

xylena · March 10

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Most of these are magic number tweaks that would take like under an hour of dev time

That's not the time consuming part. They still have to send any changes through the bureaucracy of planning, testing, etc. Like you said, there are a ton of ways they could do the math, but it's difficult engineering to identify which of those solutions is the most effective and least intrusive (go read players arguing over heal stacking again if you have forgotten).

As players we simply need to communicate to the devs that the PvP one shot meta sucks, one big reason is that there's too much crit dmg but not enough crit resist.

L_Nici · March 10

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

hoangdz · March 10

L_Nici wrote: »

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

10-12k Molten AFTER mitigation deduction, not before lol. That's on par with bow procs.

xylena · March 10

Radiate77 wrote: »

Healing is still very strong, and honestly, is the only chance you have against a DoT meta.

DOT meta? What lol. People are complaining about the one shot whip combos, not being pressured down, which was only a problem in PvP in like 2 out of 49 patches, def not this one.

Unless players are literally auto melting to the first opponent who tags them, pressure is 99% skill issue, you've got at least 3-6 seconds to do something about it at any given time.

That's probably why players whine and moan so much about pressure, no excuses when you see it coming and die anyway, can't blame it on lag or "macros" like the random one shots.

hoangdz wrote: »

deal with both subclassed meta builds AND the new OP DK

ez just wait til they blink then one shot them

/s

L_Nici · March 10

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

10-12k Molten AFTER mitigation deduction, not before lol. That's on par with bow procs.

No its not. A Spectral Bow proc can easily deal 15k+. And the average hit of a whip was just 4.1k, soo again, thats normal damage. The 10k was on a critical, max stacked and probably with a lot of penetration.

hoangdz · March 10

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

10-12k Molten AFTER mitigation deduction, not before lol. That's on par with bow procs.

No its not. A Spectral Bow proc can easily deal 15k+. And the average hit of a whip was just 4.1k, soo again, thats normal damage. The 10k was on a critical, max stacked and probably with a lot of penetration.

No, I've been dueling all night and checking CMX data. Are you telling me what I'm seeing with my own eyes is wrong? lol.

Molten Whip is currently hitting as hard as bow proc.

L_Nici · March 10

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

10-12k Molten AFTER mitigation deduction, not before lol. That's on par with bow procs.

No its not. A Spectral Bow proc can easily deal 15k+. And the average hit of a whip was just 4.1k, soo again, thats normal damage. The 10k was on a critical, max stacked and probably with a lot of penetration.

No, I've been dueling all night and checking CMX data. Are you telling me what I'm seeing with my own eyes is wrong? lol.

Molten Whip is currently hitting as hard as bow proc.

Obviously it is, if you call an average damage of 4k "on par" with bow procs.

Radiate77 · March 10

xylena wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Healing is still very strong, and honestly, is the only chance you have against a DoT meta.

DOT meta? What lol. People are complaining about the one shot whip combos, not being pressured down, which was only a problem in PvP in like 2 out of 49 patches, def not this one.

Unless players are literally auto melting to the first opponent who tags them, pressure is 99% skill issue, you've got at least 3-6 seconds to do something about it at any given time.

That's probably why players whine and moan so much about pressure, no excuses when you see it coming and die anyway, can't blame it on lag or "macros" like the random one shots.

hoangdz wrote: »

deal with both subclassed meta builds AND the new OP DK

ez just wait til they blink then one shot them

/s

Everything DKs do will apply a DoT, so yes. It is a DoT meta. That doesn’t mean burst isn’t also a problem. All they have to do is get you to 70% health with DoTs and then you’re guaranteed dead.

So having a a healer top you at 100% at all times is now mandatory.

hoangdz · March 10

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

10-12k Molten AFTER mitigation deduction, not before lol. That's on par with bow procs.

No its not. A Spectral Bow proc can easily deal 15k+. And the average hit of a whip was just 4.1k, soo again, thats normal damage. The 10k was on a critical, max stacked and probably with a lot of penetration.

No, I've been dueling all night and checking CMX data. Are you telling me what I'm seeing with my own eyes is wrong? lol.

Molten Whip is currently hitting as hard as bow proc.

Obviously it is, if you call an average damage of 4k "on par" with bow procs.

You're taking max value of bow and compare it to average value of whip. Maybe don't be disingenuous with your argument first?

Here's a meta Assassination/Aedric/Storm Calling build I fought against:

8.3k crit bow and 4760 average.

I regularly take this amount of bow procs on my sorc from decent builds. Where's the 15k bow?

L_Nici · March 10

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

10-12k Molten AFTER mitigation deduction, not before lol. That's on par with bow procs.

No its not. A Spectral Bow proc can easily deal 15k+. And the average hit of a whip was just 4.1k, soo again, thats normal damage. The 10k was on a critical, max stacked and probably with a lot of penetration.

No, I've been dueling all night and checking CMX data. Are you telling me what I'm seeing with my own eyes is wrong? lol.

Molten Whip is currently hitting as hard as bow proc.

Obviously it is, if you call an average damage of 4k "on par" with bow procs.

You're taking max value of bow and compare it to average value of whip. Maybe don't be disingenuous with your argument first?

Here's a meta Assassination/Aedric/Storm Calling build I fought against:

8.3k crit bow and 4760 average.

I regularly take this amount of bow procs on my sorc from decent builds. Where's the 15k bow?

Would you look at that the average damage of the bow proc is still higher than the average damage of the whip. qed.

Radiate77 · March 10

@hoangdz just remember their names when Sorcerer comes up and Stam Sorcs are 2 tapping people again.

L_Nici · March 10

Radiate77 wrote: »

@hoangdz just remember their names when Sorcerer comes up and Stam Sorcs are 2 tapping people again.

Well either that or ZOS as usual forgets Stamsorcs exist and Stamsorc will never rise from the ashes again.

xylena · March 10

Radiate77 wrote: »

Everything DKs do will apply a DoT, so yes. It is a DoT meta.

Nobody is dying to "dots" they are dying to uninterruptable 30k+ bursts.

The fact that DK does some pressure in between its whips is a good thing, burst builds that do 0 dmg while holding block between ult dumps are the most boring PvP in existence.

Stamicka · March 10

I think the main issue here is that the class reworks will be rolled out relatively slowly instead of all at once. Heavily buffing pure classes is honestly a good way to soft rollback subclassing in PvP/Endgame PvE, but keep it an option for more casual play.

Once other classes are reworked, ideally pure DK will be balanced compared to those.

I made a comment back in December about this and I'm still standing on it:

Stamicka wrote: »

I’m actually hoping that ZOS buffs pure classes so much that subclassing becomes a completely useless system that no one uses outside of overland and casual play. It would sort of be like a soft rollback.

Most of the time subclassing defenders say “well you don’t HAVE to follow the meta!” I say let them keep that mentality. With that attitude they should still have fun being unique with an extremely nerfed subclassing system… not that normal and overland content need any sort of build.

Kind of seems like everyone wins if done correctly. Subclassing will become unpopular in endgame PvE and PvP while the people who like it get to keep it. The reality is, it’s just too difficult to balance for end game environments especially since balance was rough even before subclassing. We are better off if pure classes become optimal while subclassing fades into the background as a more niche system.

Long term this is good imo.

hoangdz · March 10

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

10-12k Molten AFTER mitigation deduction, not before lol. That's on par with bow procs.

No its not. A Spectral Bow proc can easily deal 15k+. And the average hit of a whip was just 4.1k, soo again, thats normal damage. The 10k was on a critical, max stacked and probably with a lot of penetration.

No, I've been dueling all night and checking CMX data. Are you telling me what I'm seeing with my own eyes is wrong? lol.

Molten Whip is currently hitting as hard as bow proc.

Obviously it is, if you call an average damage of 4k "on par" with bow procs.

You're taking max value of bow and compare it to average value of whip. Maybe don't be disingenuous with your argument first?

Here's a meta Assassination/Aedric/Storm Calling build I fought against:

8.3k crit bow and 4760 average.

I regularly take this amount of bow procs on my sorc from decent builds. Where's the 15k bow?

Would you look at that the average damage of the bow proc is still higher than the average damage of the whip. qed.

I don't care if bow does 300 more average damage than Whip. Average damage doesn't kill in PvP. It's crit damage. That is all that matters. At the end of the day, Whip is critting for almost 2k more than bow, and that is what secures the kill.

smallhammer · March 10

Just been in Cyro. It's a light show, and reminds me of a circus. It seems almost everyone are DK.

L_Nici · March 10

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

10-12k Molten AFTER mitigation deduction, not before lol. That's on par with bow procs.

No its not. A Spectral Bow proc can easily deal 15k+. And the average hit of a whip was just 4.1k, soo again, thats normal damage. The 10k was on a critical, max stacked and probably with a lot of penetration.

No, I've been dueling all night and checking CMX data. Are you telling me what I'm seeing with my own eyes is wrong? lol.

Molten Whip is currently hitting as hard as bow proc.

Obviously it is, if you call an average damage of 4k "on par" with bow procs.

You're taking max value of bow and compare it to average value of whip. Maybe don't be disingenuous with your argument first?

Here's a meta Assassination/Aedric/Storm Calling build I fought against:

8.3k crit bow and 4760 average.

I regularly take this amount of bow procs on my sorc from decent builds. Where's the 15k bow?

Would you look at that the average damage of the bow proc is still higher than the average damage of the whip. qed.

I don't care if bow does 300 more average damage than Whip. Average damage doesn't kill in PvP. It's crit damage. That is all that matters. At the end of the day, Whip is critting for almost 2k more than bow, and that is what secures the kill.

In your specific case maybe, where we also do not know which buffs the attacker had. Possibly the DK had more Pen than that subclass abomination. But overall I see way higher Crits of Spectral Bows, especially from pure Nightblades than that cute 10k of a whip. Even Blood for Blood had a higher average damage than a whip. Also its 600 more average damage, not 300.