Haki_7 wrote: »

We need to

Moonspawn wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

We need to

Your team used a bad strat, and lost because of it.

The issue wasn't that his team lost, it was that they almost won because of it. Third critical flaw of 2-sided: Spawncamping is encouraged by the format itself in every gamemode.

xylena wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

We need to

No we don't.

Moonspawn wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Could you

No. Not until you post a BGs board showing your performance on a clearly bad team, so we can establish whether you have the competency to meaningfully engage in this discussion.

It's most certainly something about not playing the objective, so:

''Domination, impossible to lose. We did because... team was spawncamping newcomers instead of playing the objective.''
I see that all the time. Damage dealers either being forced or choosing to ditch their teammates to go around targeting newcomers. It's the influence of the first and third critical flaws of 2-sided. So far, I've only been able to identify one way to set them free.

@MincMincMinc wrote:

Yeah I would probably know that resets have stopped when every other week I get to play I am not stuck fighting cp200s who don't know how to light attack. .

https://youtu.be/Vm0-iLxnV3s

xylena wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Being relentlessly assigned to the winning team is certainly an issue, but how can it be considered a skill?

If I'm the reason my teams keep relentlessly winning, then yes it is skill. Perhaps if you tried dealing damage, you too would find yourself "assigned to the winning team" more often

Radiate77 wrote: »

One group with all bruisers will lose to a group with three bruisers and a healer, every time. That is just one example. There are several group compositions that slant you towards winning before a match even begins.

xylena wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Already answered

This has nothing to do with 8p randoms or MMR. Please demonstrate competency if you wish to be taken seriously when discussing mechanics. As it stands, empirical evidence suggests a nonzero chance that you are a troll account who has never actually played this game.

xylena wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Already answered

This has nothing to do with 8p randoms or MMR.

Moonspawn wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Payload escort is territory control gameplay

Payload rewards coordinated fights and map control.

Crazy King and Domination (3-sided)

PROBLEM

• Two teams fight while the third flips all remaining flags uncontested.

SOLUTIONS

• Reduce the amount of points each flag gives per tick. Domination from 8 to 4, Crazy King from 8 to 6.
• Modify flags to require a minimum of two players to be fully captured. Solo players would still be able to hinder the opponents' progress by discoloring their flags, but to get any points they would need the help of at least one teammate. Running around without even drawing weapons would no longer be the ultimate winning strategy.

Even in the worst case scenario, it would be impossible to end any match in less than 10 minutes. Most would last 15.

@thesarahandcompany How long do you think it would take for ZOS to implement these minor adjustments? And what is your opinion about them? It's important. It's related to the discussion about the current matchmaking.

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

I wait 30 - 40 min in que and fight the same 10 people all the time, I actually prefer to fight the 9 other people who actually can fight back and wait the 30 min than spend 5 min in que and get 40 kills against players who can’t fight back.

If you change your build and have a miserable experience in high mmr, that’s a sign that your build is bad and you need to go back to the kitchen. Not every build or play style is viable in high mmr bcs you fighting skilled players with good builds and that alone will counter a lot of things

@MincMincMinc wrote:

Yeah I would probably know that resets have stopped when every other week I get to play I am not stuck fighting cp200s who don't know how to light attack. .

https://youtu.be/yIxD-J3csOE

Haki_7 wrote: »

@MincMincMinc I'm tagging you because I don't know if you saw my last question:

@MincMincMinc wrote:

Yeah I would probably know that resets have stopped when every other week I get to play I am not stuck fighting cp200s who don't know how to light attack. .

''Not that I doubt the accuracy of your witcher senses, but is there a different way to measure the impact of stopping the MMR resets? ''

If you don't want to answer, that's fine too. I have other questions about your plan to fix Battlegrounds.

@NxJoeyD wrote:

Moonspawn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Short term solutions are ones that don’t require major re-work, things that make use of the existing mechanical structures and only work to address the root causes of the most major concerns.

Examples of these would be:

Hard cap on self healing. No player of any role should be able to self heal to 90% - 95% health in a single burst, with Battle Spirit active. This creates a subset of spam players who don’t work with their teams or other roles such as healers, leaving them with little support. This is a rampant problem.

Hard cap Crit. .. we can still have crit based builds but they need a limit that cannot be exceeded. Max crit modifier is max crit, any excess is ignored not stacked above the cap.

Those 2, simple, modifications would improve BGs tremendously in the short term. They wouldn’t disenfranchise anyone but they’d kill the over reliant mechanics that are ruining BGs. They don’t require adding any assets or bloat to the game or any significant code writing, rather, just making better use of existing elements. We can live with everything else for now.

We'd still be living in a world where:
- The target order almost never reaches pvpers.
- Hideous anti-gaming is effortless.
- Spawncamping is so easy and so useful that it is encouraged in every gamemode.
- People give up on matches faster than ever because there is no longer a chance to fight for second place.

@NxJoeyD teach me how?

@Moonspawn

Where are you getting those assumptions from?

What I propose would reduce spawn camping tremendously. And capping crit is the FARTHEST thing from anti-gaming I can think of. Unless you’re a player that’s leaning on excessive crit to participate in combat then that makes no sense to say. It’s not as though there would be no crit if there was a hard cap it’s just that it wouldn’t be excessive, how is that a detriment to gameplay?

Many people on this thread are hard focusing on MMR, and they’re not wrong to say that. That’s been a pain point with BG’s since before subclassing but if we’re talking from a data driven perspective there’s a clearly defined line of how PvP combat was “before subclassing” and “after subclassing”. And we know that’s true as the Devs have all but admitted that and it’s part of the reason we’re getting class refreshes.

The idea to reset MMR is valid but not for the reasons that some people here think. Most assume that a resetting MMR aims to really separate players of certain skill levels, I’m going to tell you that’s not entirely what would happen … to some extent, yes, but to an equal extent, no. And that is down to core, fundamental, combat mechanics and how they have changed in the post-subclassing state.

This means that before subclassing you really needed skilled players and well setup builds to run a lopsided BG match or spawncamp … but now, you don’t. Even novice players can put together a build that falls into the narrow scope of the “meta” and be rewarded for low skill gameplay actions because their builds provide them with little to no consequence.

What this means is that, data wise, you can’t as easily separate your vet players from some of your spammers where you could easily do that in the past; because, on paper, both look similar in terms of metrics.

This creates a question, if janky players can now better run leaderboards how do we separate them from experienced players? .. the answer: we don’t.

Resetting MMR would instead see matchmaking grouping players based on consistent match outcomes, rather than trying to identify skill. It simply wouldn’t matter whether a player was really experienced or simply mashing buttons, if they’re hitting metrics they’re going to get grouped together.

Ask anyone and they’ll tell you that spawn camping OR one sided BGs increased in frequency post subclassing … does that mean that overnight lots more players “got good”? No, it means mechanics changed, which many of us predicted.

Resetting MMR would let the game attempt to sort out players based on how their matches have outcome so that like-outcome players are more frequently paired together. This would take a big chunk out of spawn camping and one sided matches.

As for the crit adjustments, the reason for those is that when you trace the most imbalanced mechanics in the current state of PvP to their source you arrive at Crit. I mention Crit damage and Crit healing separately because although they are related there are differences in scaling but both are affected by players putting resources into Crit scaling.

Basically the current state of Crit is indirectly telling every player “play a Crit build or just don’t be competitive”; and that’s not good for gameplay. There are some exceptions to this but as a general statement to PvP it applies. That really needs to be curbed. Combat in an MMO can certainly have an element of critical focus but the extent ZoS has allowed is excessive, especially given the lack of counterplay resources.

Remember, PvP combat isn’t just about the number of players on a team or how many teams are on the field or how many points a ball or flag awards .. it’s fundamental core combat mechanics and there’s very real questions with combat mechanics and their logics in PvP, but those can be addressed later.

What I’m currently focused on now is having PvP be playable for the broadest sense of the player base in a way that enables the game to maintain until at least the class refresh is complete. The best way to do that is to address the sources of the main issues and then test: MMR & Crit are our two culprits. Not only that but they’re easy to apply which wouldn’t be asking the Devs to undertake some major effort whilst they’re already in the middle of a major effort. That makes those two things a reasonable ask. Coming at the Devs for 3 team BGs or scoring overhauls or any of the like isn’t realistic because we all know they have their hands full and we’d never get it for at a minimum a year.

If we hard cap crit at its current max rather than leaving it a soft cap then the existing counterplay becomes more viable again, and if that happens then players no longer get to use crit as a “get out of jail free card” in PvP combat and instead have to actually play as a team or learn & execute combat tactics properly to win a match. And if all that happens then the instances of spawn camping & one sided matches reduce.

https://youtu.be/3NOLNu4NLbU