Please revert dizzying swing nerf

Prionyx · February 25

How is dizzying getting nerfed instead of BFB?

Wup_sa · February 25

Because only dual wield is allowed to be viable

xylena · February 25

If reducing the cast time to 0.5sec means Uppercut can land reliably in PvP, then it's a huge buff. I do agree though that Weapon skills should be better than generics like BFB, I don't think the buffed Uppercut quite gets there, and that's where it needs to be to see play.

Major_Mangle · February 25

Nah, d-swing can stay in the dirt where it belongs. Back when the skill had a knock-up is probably one of the worst times for PvP this game has ever seen. Hope it stays a mediocre skill until the servers are taken down.

xylena · February 25

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Nah, d-swing can stay in the dirt where it belongs. Back when the skill had a knock-up is probably one of the worst times for PvP this game has ever seen. Hope it stays a mediocre skill until the servers are taken down.

You must mean the 2018-2020 Warden/Necro tank meta. Yeah that sucked, but it wasn't Uppercut's fault. 2015-2017 metas were a relatively healthy balance of 2H and DW melee builds. Uppercut was even stronger back then but was fine and generally appreciated.

Prionyx · February 25

xylena wrote: »

If reducing the cast time to 0.5sec means Uppercut can land reliably in PvP, then it's a huge buff. I do agree though that Weapon skills should be better than generics like BFB, I don't think the buffed Uppercut quite gets there, and that's where it needs to be to see play.

It's a nerf, 0.8s cast time leaves less time to react to following skill(which could be ulti), so it should be either 0.8s cast time or no cast time at all

xylena · February 25

Prionyx wrote: »

It's a nerf, 0.8s cast time leaves less time to react to following skill(which could be ulti), so it should be either 0.8s cast time or no cast time at all

The 0.8sec cast is a joke, nobody paying attention is getting hit by that. Even at 0.5sec players will still simply step out of range, causing your cast to fail. I'd vote zero cast time.

Probably be more balanced to straight up swap the mechanics of Uppercut and BFB. Let Vamp line have the weird niche skill, let 2H have the broadly useful and consistent one.

Urzigurumash · February 25

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Nah, d-swing can stay in the dirt where it belongs. Back when the skill had a knock-up is probably one of the worst times for PvP this game has ever seen. Hope it stays a mediocre skill until the servers are taken down.

So the first like 5 years or something then? What are you a Surprise Attack fanatic or something?

Urzigurumash · February 25

Like 99% of players on Xbox use Surprise Attack, I think we should probably accept that eso pvp is a 1 class thing, anything else is too much "tank meta"

Iriidius · February 25

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Nah, d-swing can stay in the dirt where it belongs. Back when the skill had a knock-up is probably one of the worst times for PvP this game has ever seen. Hope it stays a mediocre skill until the servers are taken down.

This request to revert Dizzy swing nerf isnt about reverting the nerf 6 years ago to restore knockup but reverting the nerf currently on PTS and keeping it how it is now.

Dizzy already isnt used that much anymore, only meele builds without vampire or good class spammable need it as they dont have viable alternative.

It would be used less if flurry as alternative would be viable. Twohanded needs dual wields passive dmg and dual wield needs a spammable not requiring arena sets.

BardokRedSnow · February 25

I get what op is trying to say, I think, about the slow cast time creating like a delayed hit and thus making the burst harder to react to, like elden ring logic, and basically why shalks is so good aside from it hitting like a truck of course and the debuff.

In practice tho, namely with lag, its pretty much impossible to use against anyone competent like xylena said unless they're already cc'd, distracted, or just not very good. Less cast time for melee skills the better, it leaves you too open to be viable anyway and if there is going to be a delay, it should be hitting far harder than it is currently.

And I used to love dizzy swing, it was great even with the technical issues before. As it is now though there's no excuse for having such a slow windup.

Thumbless_Bot · February 25

Dizzy works about 40% of the time that it actually should land, and that is about 10% of the time.

Urzigurumash · February 25

D Swing had a longer cast time pre Nerfmire in 2018 and it was great back then because it hit harder, there was less Snare Removal, less CC Immunity, and basically nobody was at Speedcap.

But today Speedcap and immediate Snare Removal are essential characteristics of everybody's favorite fantasy archetype, the Beetle-summoning Lightning Assassin.

BardokRedSnow · February 25

Aside from that there's a huge long range meta, and you will get lit up trying to swing dizzy as it is now in cyrodiil in most cases.

Thumbless_Bot · February 26

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Aside from that there's a huge long range meta, and you will get lit up trying to swing dizzy as it is now in cyrodiil in most cases.

Been screaming this for two years
Zos wants two teams standing on separate platforms yelling at each other from 30 meters away.

Zodiarkslayer · February 26

And this discussion underlines again why a PvP centric view on ESO destroys the entire game.

Separate PvP from PvE! It's the only way.

Aces-High-82 · February 26

Urzigurumash wrote: »

D Swing had a longer cast time pre Nerfmire in 2018 and it was great back then because it hit harder, there was less Snare Removal, less CC Immunity, and basically nobody was at Speedcap.

But today Speedcap and immediate Snare Removal are essential characteristics of everybody's favorite fantasy archetype, the Beetle-summoning Lightning Assassin.

Anim cancel was awesome....at least for the ppl that were able to pull it off or using a macro. You could squeez several attacks into a single wonky 1.7 sec animation.
Nowadays only bash builds can perform on such an level so that the server wont keep up for the player on the receiving end.

Radiate77 · February 26

What nerf???

Thumbless_Bot · February 26

Radiate77 wrote: »

What nerf???

Cast time reduced from .6 seconds to .5. I struggle to see how this is a nerf... maybe it's a berf... buff that people see as a nerf... I'm going with it.

MincMincMinc · February 26

It was a slight buff this patch, but really it just allows you to block or weapon swap after dizzy sooner. Generally you dont weapon swap after dizzy since it is a combo initiation skill.

Not quite sure what the OP means, but its not good for the game for zos to constantly be removing unique playstyles and making everything into a surprise attack skill. General gameplay and weaving is losing its variety. 2h used to always be the chunky longer swing hits that felt like they hit hard. Now dizzy gameplay is converting into a generic surprise attack spam to pair with other generic timed burst skills in order to do damage.

Zos should have just fixed the knockup putting people in walls instead of removing it.
History:

At the time the real issue was that they gutted the unique onslaught and made it a copy and paste of corrosive instead of buffing the more original ult return idea. Which lead to people doing one shot builds all over the place.....instead of zos changing their new idea they tried to prevent landing it by nerfing dizzy stun.......zos apparently doesnt think other stuns exist in the game. Not to mention the offbalance stun literally guarantees you can hit your next skill because it is not tied to a GCD hit like old dizzy knockup was. So now instead of a clearly telegraphed long cast time counterable skill we have this unavoidable invisible stun animation slop.

Also at the time zos found people had issues landing dizzy, but this was because originally the skill had two aim checks at the start and end of the skill. There was also conflicting PTS info because zos only changed the dizzy skill and had not changed the aim checks of uppercut and wrecking at the time.........So you needed to be in range and aiming at the target to hit the skill shot. Which is where alot of the fun was of the skill. Again at the time of summerset zos introduced swift and power crept the average player's movement speed without sprint up considerably while giving access to constant snare immunities making the average player constantly fast moving. Which was why they started speeding up dizzy from the 1.5s and 1.2s cast time while also adding the useless snare to the skill

Dizzy and 2h got done dirty so many times over the years. Honestly I thought the crystal weapon on sorc was going to be a remake of old dizzy since dizzy was always stamsorc's "spammable" of choice. Old dizzy made sense for crystal weapon since it was a cast time much like crystal blast and frags. Instead of frags massive damage boost and instant cast, you could have a crystal weapon proc that did the longer cast knockup........Made a lot more sense than a copy and paste of imbue which didn't pair with stamsorc bruiser playstyle at all.

BardokRedSnow · February 26

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

And this discussion underlines again why a PvP centric view on ESO destroys the entire game.

Separate PvP from PvE! It's the only way.

Aint nobody using dizzy swing for pve lol why are you here. Dizzy swing is already the pvp skill, although wrecking blow has a better use case rn because of berserk and access to scribing cc's.

Casul · February 26

Real OGs remember wrecking blow into take flight.

MincMincMinc · February 26

Casul wrote: »

Real OGs remember wrecking blow into take flight.

You remember dks having the melee range boost? what a passive.

EDIT: Actually this would have been a good 2h passive, probably would have solved the issues with people not being able to land dizzy swings back in the day.

Urzigurumash · February 26

Casul wrote: »

Real OGs remember wrecking blow into take flight.

then Heavy Attack -> Executioner, in 2018 and 2019 I really enjoyed Doylemish with that too

Nowadays nobody's staying down long enough for any of that to work even if it had the Knockback

which probably speaks to an increase in player skill as much as anything. Certainly that must be a large part of the gradual "solving of the Meta"

and well said there @MincMincMinc , spot on analysis . Old timer StamDK and StamSorc forever united in our treasured memories

Casul · February 26

Speaking of OG. Remember 30 second wards. Oh pre Morrowind was a wild time.

MincMincMinc · February 26

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Casul wrote: »

Real OGs remember wrecking blow into take flight.

then Heavy Attack -> Executioner, in 2018 and 2019 I really enjoyed Doylemish with that too

Nowadays nobody's staying down long enough for any of that to work even if it had the Knockback

which probably speaks to an increase in player skill as much as anything. Certainly that must be a large part of the gradual "solving of the Meta"

and well said there @MincMincMinc , spot on analysis . Old timer StamDK and StamSorc forever united in our treasured memories

Yeah sadly we all need to use generic spammable designs. Even jabs now adays is getting closer to feeling like a generic spammable instead of the aoe it used to be.

What happened to things like older stamplar that dotted people up, then went into potl buildup for burst......again another playstyle pushed into a generic stamblade type playstyle.

even the generic surprise attack has gotten more generic where it nolonger needs invis to do the stun. So the flanking invis gameplay is slipping away.

Prionyx · February 27

xylena wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

It's a nerf, 0.8s cast time leaves less time to react to following skill(which could be ulti), so it should be either 0.8s cast time or no cast time at all

The 0.8sec cast is a joke, nobody paying attention is getting hit by that. Even at 0.5sec players will still simply step out of range, causing your cast to fail. I'd vote zero cast time.

Probably be more balanced to straight up swap the mechanics of Uppercut and BFB. Let Vamp line have the weird niche skill, let 2H have the broadly useful and consistent one.

It's not that, GCD is 1 second, so after 0.8 cast time you hit your skill in just 200 seconds, it leads to some opportunities, like for example if you actually stun with dizzying you can then hit a guaranteed merciless, which is cool. With 500 ms there will be enough time to break free and dodge it

MincMincMinc · February 27

Prionyx wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

It's a nerf, 0.8s cast time leaves less time to react to following skill(which could be ulti), so it should be either 0.8s cast time or no cast time at all

The 0.8sec cast is a joke, nobody paying attention is getting hit by that. Even at 0.5sec players will still simply step out of range, causing your cast to fail. I'd vote zero cast time.

Probably be more balanced to straight up swap the mechanics of Uppercut and BFB. Let Vamp line have the weird niche skill, let 2H have the broadly useful and consistent one.

It's not that, GCD is 1 second, so after 0.8 cast time you hit your skill in just 200 seconds, it leads to some opportunities, like for example if you actually stun with dizzying you can then hit a guaranteed merciless, which is cool. With 500 ms there will be enough time to break free and dodge it

Well, the abusive offbalance stun should not be a good example of what we should be asking for. Even with the old knockup you could CC break and block before being hit by the next gcd. Allowing any guaranteed merciless (highest tooltip skill/ult in the game) is not a good thing, its terrible telegraph design.

Things like the terrible offbalance stun is why the game feels so unresponsive and clunky. Because there are no clear telegraphs for things like this you run into these situations where your character just seems to flop over. Its the disconnect of not having clear visuals for CC consequences. Much like how many players have issues with charm because they cant see the light blue circle in many instances.

cuddles_with_wroble · February 27

MincMincMinc wrote: »

It was a slight buff this patch, but really it just allows you to block or weapon swap after dizzy sooner. Generally you dont weapon swap after dizzy since it is a combo initiation skill.

Not quite sure what the OP means, but its not good for the game for zos to constantly be removing unique playstyles and making everything into a surprise attack skill. General gameplay and weaving is losing its variety. 2h used to always be the chunky longer swing hits that felt like they hit hard. Now dizzy gameplay is converting into a generic surprise attack spam to pair with other generic timed burst skills in order to do damage.

Zos should have just fixed the knockup putting people in walls instead of removing it.
History:
At the time the real issue was that they gutted the unique onslaught and made it a copy and paste of corrosive instead of buffing the more original ult return idea. Which lead to people doing one shot builds all over the place.....instead of zos changing their new idea they tried to prevent landing it by nerfing dizzy stun.......zos apparently doesnt think other stuns exist in the game. Not to mention the offbalance stun literally guarantees you can hit your next skill because it is not tied to a GCD hit like old dizzy knockup was. So now instead of a clearly telegraphed long cast time counterable skill we have this unavoidable invisible stun animation slop.

Also at the time zos found people had issues landing dizzy, but this was because originally the skill had two aim checks at the start and end of the skill. There was also conflicting PTS info because zos only changed the dizzy skill and had not changed the aim checks of uppercut and wrecking at the time.........So you needed to be in range and aiming at the target to hit the skill shot. Which is where alot of the fun was of the skill. Again at the time of summerset zos introduced swift and power crept the average player's movement speed without sprint up considerably while giving access to constant snare immunities making the average player constantly fast moving. Which was why they started speeding up dizzy from the 1.5s and 1.2s cast time while also adding the useless snare to the skill

Dizzy and 2h got done dirty so many times over the years. Honestly I thought the crystal weapon on sorc was going to be a remake of old dizzy since dizzy was always stamsorc's "spammable" of choice. Old dizzy made sense for crystal weapon since it was a cast time much like crystal blast and frags. Instead of frags massive damage boost and instant cast, you could have a crystal weapon proc that did the longer cast knockup........Made a lot more sense than a copy and paste of imbue which didn't pair with stamsorc bruiser playstyle at all.

Not only did they gut dizzy swing and consistently gut any brawler set we run with it but then we (stamsorcs) switched to master dw and they murdered that too. Remember when we have vate 2h heavy attack crystal wep burst? Dead. vMA 2h azure? Dead. We can only pray they don’t fix bow sorc or its all over KEKW

MincMincMinc · February 27

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

It was a slight buff this patch, but really it just allows you to block or weapon swap after dizzy sooner. Generally you dont weapon swap after dizzy since it is a combo initiation skill.

Not quite sure what the OP means, but its not good for the game for zos to constantly be removing unique playstyles and making everything into a surprise attack skill. General gameplay and weaving is losing its variety. 2h used to always be the chunky longer swing hits that felt like they hit hard. Now dizzy gameplay is converting into a generic surprise attack spam to pair with other generic timed burst skills in order to do damage.

Zos should have just fixed the knockup putting people in walls instead of removing it.
History:
At the time the real issue was that they gutted the unique onslaught and made it a copy and paste of corrosive instead of buffing the more original ult return idea. Which lead to people doing one shot builds all over the place.....instead of zos changing their new idea they tried to prevent landing it by nerfing dizzy stun.......zos apparently doesnt think other stuns exist in the game. Not to mention the offbalance stun literally guarantees you can hit your next skill because it is not tied to a GCD hit like old dizzy knockup was. So now instead of a clearly telegraphed long cast time counterable skill we have this unavoidable invisible stun animation slop.

Also at the time zos found people had issues landing dizzy, but this was because originally the skill had two aim checks at the start and end of the skill. There was also conflicting PTS info because zos only changed the dizzy skill and had not changed the aim checks of uppercut and wrecking at the time.........So you needed to be in range and aiming at the target to hit the skill shot. Which is where alot of the fun was of the skill. Again at the time of summerset zos introduced swift and power crept the average player's movement speed without sprint up considerably while giving access to constant snare immunities making the average player constantly fast moving. Which was why they started speeding up dizzy from the 1.5s and 1.2s cast time while also adding the useless snare to the skill

Dizzy and 2h got done dirty so many times over the years. Honestly I thought the crystal weapon on sorc was going to be a remake of old dizzy since dizzy was always stamsorc's "spammable" of choice. Old dizzy made sense for crystal weapon since it was a cast time much like crystal blast and frags. Instead of frags massive damage boost and instant cast, you could have a crystal weapon proc that did the longer cast knockup........Made a lot more sense than a copy and paste of imbue which didn't pair with stamsorc bruiser playstyle at all.

Not only did they gut dizzy swing and consistently gut any brawler set we run with it but then we (stamsorcs) switched to master dw and they murdered that too. Remember when we have vate 2h heavy attack crystal wep burst? Dead. vMA 2h azure? Dead. We can only pray they don’t fix bow sorc or its all over KEKW

Yeah honestly the absence of the old chunky dizzy skillshot stat builds basically has left the game stuck in a place where the only route is to do a timed proc damage build, or a timed delayed burst build. Inevitably it only takes a slight breeze patch wise to go into a "tank" meta or a "burst" meta. Which we have been hearing every patch since like summerset.

I would rather the older combat where proper sustain and weaving was more impactful. Compared to todays perfect sustain, tank and time a preplanned combo.

Prionyx · February 27

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

It's a nerf, 0.8s cast time leaves less time to react to following skill(which could be ulti), so it should be either 0.8s cast time or no cast time at all

The 0.8sec cast is a joke, nobody paying attention is getting hit by that. Even at 0.5sec players will still simply step out of range, causing your cast to fail. I'd vote zero cast time.

Probably be more balanced to straight up swap the mechanics of Uppercut and BFB. Let Vamp line have the weird niche skill, let 2H have the broadly useful and consistent one.

It's not that, GCD is 1 second, so after 0.8 cast time you hit your skill in just 200 seconds, it leads to some opportunities, like for example if you actually stun with dizzying you can then hit a guaranteed merciless, which is cool. With 500 ms there will be enough time to break free and dodge it

Well, the abusive offbalance stun should not be a good example of what we should be asking for. Even with the old knockup you could CC break and block before being hit by the next gcd. Allowing any guaranteed merciless (highest tooltip skill/ult in the game) is not a good thing, its terrible telegraph design.

Things like the terrible offbalance stun is why the game feels so unresponsive and clunky. Because there are no clear telegraphs for things like this you run into these situations where your character just seems to flop over. Its the disconnect of not having clear visuals for CC consequences. Much like how many players have issues with charm because they cant see the light blue circle in many instances.

What? How can you not notice it, there is literally a big pop up message saying OFF BALANCE when you get off balanced, also what is wrong with it guaranteeing merciless, it encourages a healthy playstyle unlike no skill meta grave-restoring-aedric proc builds spamming free spammable allowing them to permablock, let alone that you have to... You know, use dizzying to do it