Why the Millennial Writing?

spartaxoxo · February 22

xylena wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Epic just means heroic and grand in character or scale even, sometimes even just referencing an oral tradition.

Not this context. Describing her personal experience as "epic" is very youth/millenial.

It's also very fantasy coded. How many fantasy stories have had characters motivated by the tales bards would sing of their epic battles? A lot of them.

I do think the OP has a point though, the tank example in Heart's Life comes to mind. I think people probably wouldn't be looking at stuff like "epic," or "clout," sideways if ESO wasn't inserting modern sounding characters in often enough that even the more borderline stuff can feel jarring.

xylena · February 22

Apollosipod wrote: »

Off topic, but as a millennial I really appreciate you associating youthful with millennial. I feel young again. Anyway, time to stretch my back

Also off topic: I'm from 83 (xennial generational void) so I still grew up "analog" and never really connected with the younger online-focused millenial subculture.

xylena · February 22

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's also very fantasy coded. How many fantasy stories have had characters motivated by the tales bards would sing of their epic battles? A lot of them.

They still could've chosen so many other words that wouldn't evoke modern slang.

spartaxoxo · February 22

xylena wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It's also very fantasy coded. How many fantasy stories have had characters motivated by the tales bards would sing of their epic battles? A lot of them.

They still could've chosen so many other words that wouldn't evoke modern slang.

But that usage was setting appropriate. I don't think they need to avoid having references to things millennials might enjoy. It's not like Ithelia did a keg stand and shouted out "this is epic," while chugging mead. Epic struggles are the stuff of bard songs in fantasy games. IDK the etymology but I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up seeing a resurgence as slang precisely because of the popularity of the fantasy genre.

I agree with stuff like "tank," and "and stuff," but complaining about the usage of the word "epic," in a fantasy game feels like people don't want the writing to have any reflection of the people who write it. And that's how you end up with writing that feels stilted and unnatural. There needs to be a balance. They should try to not use modern slang so often. I get that it's why this can feel jarring and agree with it.

But they don't need to have someone combing the dialogue for anything that might have double meaning as a slang term.

xylena · February 22

spartaxoxo wrote: »

But that usage was setting appropriate.

Subjectively I'd expect something as flowery as the rest. "Magnificently harrowing, yet reifying" or whatever. Not to end it like a bored scene kid watching other people party, epic lol.

metheglyn · February 22

Toanis wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for 'wing buffet', I'm aware the word 'buffet' has two meanings and two pronounciations, and so when I read it, I choose the meaning that fits and disregard the other.

It's even worse. In many languages the word with the french pronounciation can mean:
- a self-serve meal
- the counter with the self-serve meal
- the building/room where you go for the self-serve meal
- a cupboard for dinnerware

So since we need to know the context anyway, it's not any more confusing when there is another meaning. Getting shoved is also part of the buffet experience, after all

Hah, yeah, it is very versatile word, isn't it? I do think the noun version is more common than the verb version overall, but when I was out for a walk earlier today I was getting buffetted about by the wind.

kaushad · 12:33AM

xylena wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Epic just means heroic and grand in character or scale even, sometimes even just referencing an oral tradition.

Not this context. Describing her personal experience as "epic" is very youth/millenial.

Yes, it is in this context. She's talking about an inter-planar war waged by armies of daedra. In most contexts when people describe about their own actions as "epic", only the "millennial" meaning could make sense, but we're not goddesses who fight divine wars. Or more to the point, diminished reflections of such goddesses discovering the actions of their past counterparts with awe.

AScarlato · 1:09AM

I have a lot of issues with some recent writing, but I actually enjoyed my interactions with Ithelia.

I don't recall finding anything she said particularly off-putting personally. We have a lot worse examples to worry about IMO.

ShutUpitsRed · 1:14AM

Well in their defense, she looks like she's from a completely different millennia too. And game.

ellmarie · 1:39AM

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

Well in their defense, she looks like she's from a completely different millennia too. And game.

She reminded me of Lady Gaga through the whole questline. lol

AScarlato wrote: »

I have a lot of issues with some recent writing, but I actually enjoyed my interactions with Ithelia.

I don't recall finding anything she said particularly off-putting personally. We have a lot worse examples to worry about IMO.

same

xbluerosesx · 6:08AM

whitecrow wrote: »

CoronHR wrote: »

more importantly, what is her face?!? very mar-a-lago

What does that mean?

means the devs put zero effort into design as well. I thought they were gonna update her but no they left her looking dead eyed and uncanny.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Epic was a word before it's missuse in youth culture.
Epic just means heroic and grand in character or scale even, sometimes even just referencing an oral tradition.

stop coping

xbluerosesx · 6:13AM

.

FlameDark wrote: »

The words chosen in any narrative is extremely important to the atmosphere and tone that writer is trying to convey to its reader. For example let's take a quote from the Lord of the Rings:

“The world is indeed full of peril and in it there are many dark places. But still there is much that is fair. And though in all lands, love is now mingled with grief, it still grows, perhaps, the greater.”

And now let's modernize that:

"There are lots of bad things in the world. But hey, there are still good things! And you know what? The bad stuff might even make the good things seem a lot better."

There is a striking difference in both tone and effect between the two. The first conveys a feeling of the fantasy world Tolkien was trying to establish with his readers. The second feels like a conversation between two people in a parking lot. I have more intrigue for the character speaking the first sentence, and want to know more about them. But I could not care less about the character in the second, regardless of why they are in the story. The words the writing team chooses dramatically helps influence the fantasy world in just as much ways as the graphics do in ESO, and we have good reason to be concerned when that tone and writing choice changes. Especially when it's not for the better. In my opinion, if the writers no longer care about the tone and atmosphere their writing creates, and give us writing that is trivial and clearly with a lack of care, then why should I care about their stories and their characters? If the writing is nothing more then a joke with bad punchlines, then it will be treated as such. I don't know if it is due to the writers pandering for the barest scraps of likes to their work, or a genuine lack of talent, or care. Either or, it should be addressed and fixed.

This precisely.

Talos forbid I want my medieval fantasy game to sound like a medieval fantasy, not like MCU tier garbage.

jaekobcaed · 7:03AM

One of the great consequences of modernity's obsession with perverting and destroying the English language is that grandiose terms like "epic" have been misused (admittedly, even I misuse it) to the point where people legitimately think it's just a millennial slang word.

Epic, in this context, simply means that the struggle was bombastic, worthy of recognition and remembrance in mythic sagas in ages to come.

KalevaLaine · 7:03AM

What is going on here? ^^

Harv3st · 8:16AM

I always headcanon that Ithelia comes to our world and gets to attend coachella in the end of the questline

frogthroat · 9:28AM

Syldras wrote: »

"wing buffet" just sounds completely weird.

Mmmm... wing buffet.

Northwold · 9:37AM

I don't think the use of "epic" is wrong in the quote and I think people are being hypersensitive. There have been a lot of examples that plainly are off-base for the lingo of Tamriel, however, so I can see where the complaint comes from.

(I have no idea what a "wing buffet" is. Is this a US junk fast food thing?)

SkaiFaith · 10:10AM

"The struggle I recall was ... An epic fail!" - now this would be very millennial XD

Here it has been suggested that the word "Epic" appears in English since 1500, but it also has been argued that Ithelia has been imprisoned for some millennia.

I think the question is: When, where and from who Ithelia stole the word "Epic" for the meaning that context transmits - I mean, when she was imprisoned, had Nirn even seen enough history for its people to come up with the term "Epic"? Especially since originally were the long-living elves, and I'd expect it to take more time for them to give birth to the concept of "Epic" compared to what it would take to a short-living creature.

This is what I think OP was saying.
Ithelia seemed the perfect character to use "a more ancient English", just like Azandar uses pompous words.
(I am no native English speaker btw, so I'd probably have had to check vocabulary XD but I'd have appreciated nonetheless)

xbluerosesx · 10:36AM

SkaiFaith wrote: »

"The struggle I recall was ... An epic fail!" - now this would be very millennial XD

Here it has been suggested that the word "Epic" appears in English since 1500, but it also has been argued that Ithelia has been imprisoned for some millennia.

I think the question is: When, where and from who Ithelia stole the word "Epic" for the meaning that context transmits - I mean, when she was imprisoned, had Nirn even seen enough history for its people to come up with the term "Epic"? Especially since originally were the long-living elves, and I'd expect it to take more time for them to give birth to the concept of "Epic" compared to what it would take to a short-living creature.

This is what I think OP was saying.
Ithelia seemed the perfect character to use "a more ancient English", just like Azandar uses pompous words.
(I am no native English speaker btw, so I'd probably have had to check vocabulary XD but I'd have appreciated nonetheless)

it's not that deep. I don't want my daedric princes to sound like aging millennials still trying to be cool.

Jaimeh · 12:25PM

The reason it may sound like that is because of having the english-speaking, western world reference of the modern usage of 'epic'. I think for a non-native speaker outside this bubble, that are not aware of the 'epic fail/dude that was epic' hyperbolic speech, the word sounds appropriate in the context that was presented. Ithelia and her minions put up a resistance of epic proportions. Now you may argue that the writers themselves are likely from that bubble, so the intent behind it was less to be poetic, and more to be relatable in a meme-y way, and given other examples of recent writing, it's a valid assumption, but for this specific example, it works fine.

Vaqual · 12:31PM

It is ok to point out bad writing, although being hypersensitive about ambiguous instances isn't necessarily a good look.
However, I think @FlameDark described the issue perfectly.

logarifmik · 1:53PM

I personally am more concerned about personal gender pronouns usage. I'm well aware of how long the history of 'they' is in English, and I have nothing against it in modern language. However, for me personally it always breaks 'fantasy vibes'. Maybe that's because I'm not a native speaker. But even from, let's say, an 'aesthetic-linguistic point of view,' it still looks really clumsy when a text refers to three different persons as he, she, and they. The Tanlorin quest line is probably the most striking example.

And regarding Tanlorin's story, since I mentioned it. Can someone please explain to me why Tanlorin is 'the best of them,' where by 'them' the Garland Ring is meant? I really like all this secret club narrative, but Tanlorin doesn't strike me as the most competent agent.

Also, I'm now at a middle of Zerith-var quest line, and it is probably the best small story for a long time. Literally got my jaw dropped right from the beginning. There is a really enormous gap in writing level between his story and all of the other companions. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the scriptwriters, if they read it, that is. Great work!

xbluerosesx · 2:00PM

Vaqual wrote: »

It is ok to point out bad writing, although being hypersensitive about ambiguous instances isn't necessarily a good look.
However, I think @FlameDark described the issue perfectly.

But wait I have more screenshots

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

ellmarie · 2:13PM

I'm seeing it as an attempt at humor.

HatchetHaro · 2:20PM

logarifmik wrote: »

I personally am more concerned about personal gender pronouns usage. I'm well aware of how long the history of 'they' is in English, and I have nothing against it in modern language. However, for me personally it always breaks 'fantasy vibes'. Maybe that's because I'm not a native speaker. But even from, let's say, an 'aesthetic-linguistic point of view,' it still looks really clumsy when a text refers to three different persons as he, she, and they. The Tanlorin quest line is probably the most striking example.

And regarding Tanlorin's story, since I mentioned it. Can someone please explain to me why Tanlorin is 'the best of them,' where by 'them' the Garland Ring is meant? I really like all this secret club narrative, but Tanlorin doesn't strike me as the most competent agent.

Also, I'm now at a middle of Zerith-var quest line, and it is probably the best small story for a long time. Literally got my jaw dropped right from the beginning. There is a really enormous gap in writing level between his story and all of the other companions. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the scriptwriters, if they read it, that is. Great work!

The reason why the singular-"they" still feels out-of-place to some people is because gender identity is a relatively new point of discussion at such a wide, global scale. To a lot of people, the concept of referring to a single person who you know the gender of (including non-binary and gender-fluid) as "they" is brand new.

And that's okay! It's one thing to know it's fine and have nothing against such use cases in language, and another to actually get used to it. It's unnatural for me, too, but I still try, and I correct myself whenever I slip up.

What modern games are trying to do is to integrate this new inclusiveness in their worlds, even in those fantasy settings, because ultimately, gamers still live in the modern age and still want characters they can relate to. The challenge, then, is to integrate all that naturally into the world-building and narrative so those additions feel like they have always belonged, and that's where a lot of games and stories fall short; I can hardly blame them, though, because historically, they haven't always belonged.

xylena · 2:29PM

Vaqual wrote: »

It is ok to point out bad writing, although being hypersensitive about ambiguous instances isn't necessarily a good look.

Players complaining on forums don't care about their "look" in this manner, they're not running for office or selling a product. They are attempting to communicate to the devs or reach a broader audience that may agree with them, not trying to convince the "it's fine" people.

The ambiguous "epic" isn't as egregious as "tank" or "Wing Buffet" for breaking immersion with modern cultural references, but western millenials are a big demographic for this game and it's obviously contentious. The writing fails to connect with its target audience.

WaywardArgonian · 4:30PM

There are plenty of examples of anachronistic/modern phrasing in the game but this is not one of them. The original meaning of the word fits the context fine.

As to the overarching question of why that sort of writing is present, it's just the direction that popular culture took after a lot of it got homogenized under the influence of Marvel and other franchises like Star Wars. It's less to do with the way millennials actually talk and more with how media and mainstream culture became sanitized when executives realized that they could sell more copies of their product if it is rated PG-13. So you end up with this sort of performative toughness and quirkiness that has by now caught on in video games as well.

cyclonus11 · 4:41PM

Millennials are reaching the mid-forties. Using it as a reference to "youth culture" is tired.

whitecrow · 6:25PM

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Millennials are reaching the mid-forties. Using it as a reference to "youth culture" is tired.

Eh? It's only about 25 years since the millennium.

BardokRedSnow · 7:19PM

CoronHR wrote: »

more importantly, what is her face?!? very mar-a-lago

If I said something like this... lol I cant even discuss it because even doing that is against terms of service

Anyway, she sticks out for certain and not in a good way, I always assumed she was someone's self insert.