Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Epic was a word before it's missuse in youth culture.
Epic just means heroic and grand in character or scale even, sometimes even just referencing an oral tradition.

Yep, it's been used in English since the late 1500s.

I don't disagree with the OP regarding some of the writing, though.

This usage is much older than 2010's slang.

AzuraFan wrote: »

I don't disagree with the OP regarding some of the writing, though.

Yes, there have been several examples that spawned threads just lately... All different examples/issues, but very related to the topic of "millenial writing" (I know that's the term used for it, though I don't know anyone my age who enjoys this and always wonder who is even writing like that and why):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688821/my-immersion-completely-flew-out-the-window-tank-lol
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685817/eso-writing-team-please-stop-it
And partially also this one:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688681/heart-039-s-week-quests-and-writing-concerns/
It would be worth a bigger discussion.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Epic just means heroic and grand in character or scale even, sometimes even just referencing an oral tradition.

Not this context. Describing her personal experience as "epic" is very youth/millenial.

metheglyn wrote: »

Whether the writers were thinking of the original meanings or the newer ones in both cases of course I couldn't say, but I do find it interesting how one's perspective can inform one's interpretation of the dialogue.

It's the writers' responsibility to know their audience. They could've used other words. They deliberately chose a descriptor associated with youth/millenial subculture.

They know they are referencing modern culture when they use "epic" like this, or the "tank" NPC, or the too-cute "Wing Buffet" double meaning pun. Modern culture breaks immersion.

metheglyn wrote: »

For the first example, the use of the word 'epic' didn't strike me as out of place. Since she had been struggling to recall who/what she was, the pause to me seemed more like she was looking for an accurate way to describe it.
As for 'clout', I'd not been aware it had made a recent resurgence as slang, so when it came up in Vyktor Varien's dialogue, I took it as the old meaning I knew, so it didn't seem jarring to me.
Whether the writers were thinking of the original meanings or the newer ones in both cases of course I couldn't say, but I do find it interesting how one's perspective can inform one's interpretation of the dialogue.
The word 'tank' I agree seems somewhat out of place, but until the thread came up, I admit it hadn't really registered with me. And the infamous 'and stuff' I disliked because that's not how my character talks and he would never have been so flippant in that situation.

It's the general tendency that makes it feel off - too many terms that could be modern-youth-culture-related coming up suddenly, at once, while it was no thing even just a few years ago. A single "for clout" (when it makes sense contextwise and is really about gaining political influence) during the Summerset story, for example, wouldn't have bothered me. Probably it wouldn't even have caught my attention. But if we now get everything at once - for clout, and stuff, tank, etc - it feels like there's some difference in writing, some change happening right now.

Of course it's also always a personal interpretation, and how something is perceived probably also varies according to culture and even subculture and the people one has contact with.

I don't even have much contact to youth culture (I'm in my late 30s, which is, funnily, "millenial"), but I sometimes search gaming-related things on youtube, and so I do get a glimpse on current media "trends" at times. What I noticed is that it felt like everything was "for clout" now. If you put that phrase in the youtube search bar, you'll get hundreds over hundreds videos that have that as a title: "(whatever thing) for clout". There are even masses of song titles like that now. Even a certain dictionary has an article on the youth/slang use now:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/slang/clout
And then it suddenly shows up in ESO now, for the first time? I do not believe that to be a coincidence then. Especially not if we add the other things (tank, and stuff) to that list of words that might be off. It's too much at once.

"Epic", the way as it's presented in Ithelia's dialogue, is also a media trope currently: "It was.... (breathing in, long pause) - EPIC!" It's a trope.

xylena wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Whether the writers were thinking of the original meanings or the newer ones in both cases of course I couldn't say, but I do find it interesting how one's perspective can inform one's interpretation of the dialogue.

They know they are referencing modern culture when they use "epic" like this, or the "tank" NPC, or the too-cute "Wing Buffet" double meaning pun. Modern culture breaks immersion.

It's interesting because I remember back during an early 2023 stream when some devs were talking about the upcoming Arcanist, one of the devs mentioned that they specifically wanted to include references/easter egg type things in the Arcanist class.

I explicitly remember something relating to ''comic books.'' I think this was all in reference to the writing in the Arcanist skill tooltips. I feel cringe for bringing this up without having the source, but yeah I do remember this.

This also doesn't necessarily mean it's related to any of the other writing things as of late, but honestly I do think it is worth noting that there are confirmed moments of out of universe references.


ETA I want to be clear that easter eggs aren't inherently immersion/lore breaking but I do think about this Arcanist thing whenever this kind of topic comes up.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

For the first example, the use of the word 'epic' didn't strike me as out of place. Since she had been struggling to recall who/what she was, the pause to me seemed more like she was looking for an accurate way to describe it.
As for 'clout', I'd not been aware it had made a recent resurgence as slang, so when it came up in Vyktor Varien's dialogue, I took it as the old meaning I knew, so it didn't seem jarring to me.
Whether the writers were thinking of the original meanings or the newer ones in both cases of course I couldn't say, but I do find it interesting how one's perspective can inform one's interpretation of the dialogue.
The word 'tank' I agree seems somewhat out of place, but until the thread came up, I admit it hadn't really registered with me. And the infamous 'and stuff' I disliked because that's not how my character talks and he would never have been so flippant in that situation.

It's the general tendency that makes it feel off - too many terms that could be modern-youth-culture-related coming up suddenly, at once, while it was no thing even just a few years ago. A single "for clout" (when it makes sense contextwise and is really about gaining political influence) during the Summerset story, for example, wouldn't have bothered me. Probably it wouldn't even have caught my attention. But if we now get everything at once - for clout, and stuff, tank, etc - it feels like there's some difference in writing, some change happening right now.

Of course it's also always a personal interpretation, and how something is perceived probably also varies according to culture and even subculture and the people one has contact with.

I don't even have much contact to youth culture (I'm in my late 30s, which is, funnily, "millenial"), but I sometimes search gaming-related things on youtube, and so I do get a glimpse on current media "trends" at times. What I noticed is that it felt like everything was "for clout" now. If you put that phrase in the youtube search bar, you'll get hundreds over hundreds videos that have that as a title: "(whatever thing) for clout". There are even masses of song titles like that now. Even a certain dictionary has an article on the youth/slang use now:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/slang/clout
And then it suddenly shows up in ESO now, for the first time? I do not believe that to be a coincidence then. Especially not if we add the other things (tank, and stuff) to that list of words that might be off. It's too much at once.

"Epic", the way as it's presented in Ithelia's dialogue, is also a media trope currently: "It was.... (breathing in, long pause) - EPIC!" It's a trope.

I'm not arguing that the writing hasn't changed or that these words can't be read as modern references. I'm saying my experience with them didn't include those modern references. I honestly had no idea 'clout' was being slung around everywhere on the internet, so seeing it come up once in game didn't hit me like it did so many others. That's what I was saying about a person's perspective informing their interpretation of the dialogue.

Same with the word 'buffet'--I was just explaining my approach to it and why it doesn't work as a pun with me. If they did indeed choose to use it because it was, to them, a funny bit of word play, it didn't register with me. The fact that it might not translate well is a different issue--that could be the case with many words. Perhaps they should steer clear of fitting as many jokes into as many places as they can; certainly I think the writing has become more jokey than it used to be and doesn't really fit the setting and world in some instances.

Okay, I just searched for it and the list of inspirations mentioned was: "movies, comics, anime, memes, pop-culture references and classical literature". And the statement was in particular about companions.

I didn't read all the back-and-forth but here's a few points to consider:

1) Millenial as a generation name refers to people born between the 1980s and the year 2000 - people born in the last millenium who became adults in this one. That means the youngest millenials are turning 26 this year and the oldest are in their 40s. I'm sorry to tell you this, but we are no longer 'the youth'.

2) Some of this sounds like 'the Tiffany Problem'. Words and names which sound more modern than they actually are and therefore appear anachronistic even if they would be entirely appropriate to the time period. This is difficult to avoid because it's entirely subjective, different words will seem out of place to different people. (I've also encountered the opposite - for example someone adamant the name Wendy was from the middle ages, when it was actually invented in the early 1900s for Peter Pan.)

3) Nirn is not Earth and doesn't follow our history or cultural development and no one there would speak any form of English (or French, Spanish, Japanese, Russian etc.) Obviously the game needs to use real-life lanaguges for us to understand it, and the immersion-friendly explaination is that all the dialogue and text is being translated. On that basis it makes sense that it's translated into modern English, because that's what we speak. Using old fashioned terminology would be no closer to what people in Tamriel would actually speak, and it would be inconvenient for the audience.

4) I do agree that the formality and seriousness of the dialogue needs to be appropriate for the situation, but I don't think "they sound like someone today, not someone from 30+ years ago" is the same as objecting to a character not taking the situation seriously.

I can understand that it might cause a moment to pause, but the way I look at it (and pretty much everything in this game and others like it), is that it's "fantasy". I know there are certain standards that most fantasy genre adheres to, but I figure if you can have a feline species considered a "race" partaking in the "whacky tobacky" and resembles what, in today's world, is (just someone in a cat costume), then the use of one word that might possibly resonate with a certain demographic, really does not seem too far-fetched. But, yes, I too have come across things that do not seem like they would fit the mold, or situations I just do not agree with, but I chalk it up to the fact that it's all creative work and perspective. So, I log in, look in my pack to make sure I have all of my stackable siege equipment (trebuchets, ballistae, catapults, forward camps) that I carry with me everywhere I go (it can get a little heavy sometimes), click a button to port into Cyrodiil, and await my death, just so I can get "tbagged" (maybe that's actually canon, I don't know) and smile that I have a free moment to play an imaginary character in an imaginary world.

Danikat wrote: »

1) Millenial as a generation name refers to people born between the 1980s and the year 2000 - people born in the last generation who became adults in this one. That means the youngest millenials are turning 26 this year and the oldest are in their 40s. I'm sorry to tell you this, but we are no longer 'the youth'.

I'm honestly not sure who writes like this, whom it's supposed to appeal to (funny thing, I only see people complaining about it, not praising it), and why it suddenly shows up in gaming almost everywhere, but "millennial writing" has become the common term for that style. I'm a millennial and I don't talk or write like that, and neither does any of my friends. Many terms and phrases cited as "typical" for "millennial writing" are, from my personal experience, rather used by people who are teenagers or young adults now. But I still use "millennial writing" when this topic comes up, because this is the established term for this phenomenon and many people will then already understand what it's about.

Danikat wrote: »

2) Some of this sounds like 'the Tiffany Problem'. Words and names which sound more modern than they actually are and therefore appear anachronistic even if they would be entirely appropriate to the time period. This is difficult to avoid because it's entirely subjective, different words will seem out of place to different people. (I've also encountered the opposite - for example someone adamant the name Wendy was from the middle ages, when it was actually invented in the early 1900s for Peter Pan.)

I think what matters more than if a word was already common in the past or not is the effect it has if it shows up in game. If it's a currently fashionable word used in an almost meme-like way everywhere online, I'd better avoid using it in a game that's supposed to have some "historical" flair, because it makes people think of that online stuff instead of Tamriel.

Danikat wrote: »

3) Nirn is not Earth and doesn't follow our history or cultural development and no one there would speak any form of English (or French, Spanish, Japanese, Russian etc.) Obviously the game needs to use real-life lanaguges for us to understand it, and the immersion-friendly explaination is that all the dialogue and text is being translated. On that basis it makes sense that it's translated into modern English, because that's what we speak. Using old fashioned terminology would be no closer to what people in Tamriel would actually speak, and it would be inconvenient for the audience.

Modern memefied phrases are not needed to provide understanding, though. Style of speech is not an arbitrary thing, but a way to shape atmosphere and provide immersion. Also, tanks just aren't a thing that exists on Nirn, so how could an npc refer to them?

Not sure if it's like that in all languages and cultures, but in Germany, for example, where there's a long tradition of media set in the Middle Ages (novels, movies; and there's also a huge medieval roleplay, reenactment and festival/market community, and these events are also visited by many people outside the "scene"), a certain speech style, that differs from today's everyday language, is expected for stories taking place in the Middle Ages (or medieval-ish fantasy worlds). If they'd sound like random people you meet at the bus stop in town, it would come across as completely unimmersive and absolutely jarring and badly written, and people would reject it (which is also the reason the team that does the German translation actually sometimes changes ESO writing if it comes across as too modern or colloquial; "sniper" in a lorebook became "marksman", "shrapnel" in a tool tip became "fragment", "tank" became "protector", and there are many such examples). Of course it's not the authentic language of the Middle Ages, but it has a certain historicizing flair to it and clearly avoids terms that just came up in the past few decades.

Danikat wrote: »

4) I do agree that the formality and seriousness of the dialogue needs to be appropriate for the situation, but I don't think "they sound like someone today, not someone from 30+ years ago" is the same as objecting to a character not taking the situation seriously.

It's two different issues, but from my point of view they're both problems.

xylena wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Epic just means heroic and grand in character or scale even, sometimes even just referencing an oral tradition.

Not this context. Describing her personal experience as "epic" is very youth/millenial.

Off topic, but as a millennial I really appreciate you associating youthful with millennial. I feel young again. Anyway, time to stretch my back

The words chosen in any narrative is extremely important to the atmosphere and tone that writer is trying to convey to its reader. For example let's take a quote from the Lord of the Rings:

“The world is indeed full of peril and in it there are many dark places. But still there is much that is fair. And though in all lands, love is now mingled with grief, it still grows, perhaps, the greater.”

And now let's modernize that:

"There are lots of bad things in the world. But hey, there are still good things! And you know what? The bad stuff might even make the good things seem a lot better."

There is a striking difference in both tone and effect between the two. The first conveys a feeling of the fantasy world Tolkien was trying to establish with his readers. The second feels like a conversation between two people in a parking lot. I have more intrigue for the character speaking the first sentence, and want to know more about them. But I could not care less about the character in the second, regardless of why they are in the story. The words the writing team chooses dramatically helps influence the fantasy world in just as much ways as the graphics do in ESO, and we have good reason to be concerned when that tone and writing choice changes. Especially when it's not for the better. In my opinion, if the writers no longer care about the tone and atmosphere their writing creates, and give us writing that is trivial and clearly with a lack of care, then why should I care about their stories and their characters? If the writing is nothing more then a joke with bad punchlines, then it will be treated as such. I don't know if it is due to the writers pandering for the barest scraps of likes to their work, or a genuine lack of talent, or care. Either or, it should be addressed and fixed.

metheglyn wrote: »

As for 'wing buffet', I'm aware the word 'buffet' has two meanings and two pronounciations, and so when I read it, I choose the meaning that fits and disregard the other.

It's even worse. In many languages the word with the french pronounciation can mean:
- a self-serve meal
- the counter with the self-serve meal
- the building/room where you go for the self-serve meal
- a cupboard for dinnerware

So since we need to know the context anyway, it's not any more confusing when there is another meaning. Getting shoved is also part of the buffet experience, after all