Regarding Subclassing

Mrtoobyy · February 20

In PVP subclass abilities should be SUBPAR. Stuns should ONLY snare or have their cost increased by 30-50%.
Subclassing should NOT be META it should be a gapfiller for your build with TRADEOFFS.

A warrior of the light aka Templar (my main since BETA btw)Should NOT be as skilled assasin as a Nightblade

FOR THE LOVE OF TALOS Zenimax Online.... Do you play your own game or are you not just caring about it? This is so tiresome

Mrtoobyy · February 20

IMO you have ruined PVP by implementing sublcassing. It's great and alot of fun in PVE

Radiate77 · February 20

Okay so they remove Subclassing from PvP, what do you propose happens?…

People who have been using Streak switch to Sorcerer and split your head open with the highest burst in the game moving at Mach 5.

People who have been using Incap switch to Nightblade and continue to do exactly what they have been, except they are invisible 90% of the time again.

People who use Shalks go back to building 40k health unkillable Polar Wind spamming Wardens.

Removing Subclassing from PvP would solve none of the problem Classes, because they were a problem before Subclassing. All that would accomplish, would be to reduce the visibility of Skill Lines from Necromancer, Templar, Arcanist, and Dragonknight in PvP.

tomofhyrule · February 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

Okay so they remove Subclassing from PvP, what do you propose happens?…

People who have been using Streak switch to Sorcerer and split your head open with the highest burst in the game moving at Mach 5.

People who have been using Incap switch to Nightblade and continue to do exactly what they have been, except they are invisible 90% of the time again.

People who use Shalks go back to building 40k health unkillable Polar Wind spamming Wardens.

Removing Subclassing from PvP would solve none of the problem Classes, because they were a problem before Subclassing. All that would accomplish, would be to reduce the visibility of Skill Lines from Necromancer, Templar, Arcanist, and Dragonknight in PvP.

But even if it goes as you say, that is an improvement.

You can get people to swap to Sorc for streak or NB for cloak and incap or Warden for permablock polar wind.

You don’t have everyone running all at once. People would need to choose.

Radiate77 · February 20

That’s not an improvement, because you now have none of the other skill lines in play. The game actually becomes MORE homogenized, as there are only three options to play.

Not everyone is using the combination of those three skill lines, even if they are using one or two of them.

You see…
Grave Lord / Assassination / Restoring Light
Assassination / Stormcalling / Animal Comp
Animal Comp / Winter’s / Assassination
Aedric Spear / Assassination / Animal Comp
Herald / Ardent Flame / Restoring Light
Stormcalling / Ardent Flame / Winter’s Embrace
Draconic Power / Grave Lord / Stormcalling
_ / _ / _ ect…

Instead of…
Stormcalling / Dark Magic / Daedric Summoning
Assassination / Shadow / Siphoning
Animal Comp / Winter’s Embrace / Green Balance

As a DK main, @tomofhyrule I would expect you to understand this. They butchered your class right before Scribing and once it become non-meta, everyone hopped off of it for Sorcerer.

El_Borracho · February 20

@Radiate77 I think the multitude of threads complaining about Warden charm in Cyrodiil undercut the claim that subclassing has created diversity and not homogenization.

Radiate77 · February 20

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Radiate77 I think the multitude of threads complaining about Warden charm in Cyrodiil undercut the claim that subclassing has created diversity and not homogenization.

Then people would ONLY be playing Warden by your logic, stuck to the same three skill lines.

You’ve strengthened my position. Thank you.

El_Borracho · February 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Radiate77 I think the multitude of threads complaining about Warden charm in Cyrodiil undercut the claim that subclassing has created diversity and not homogenization.

Then people would ONLY be playing Warden by your logic, stuck to the same three skill lines.

You’ve strengthened my position. Thank you.

I must have missed the part where, before subclassing, people were ONLY playing Nightblade. Or ONLY Sorc. Or ONLY Warden. You know, if we were to keep the argument consistent. Then again, that would mean arguing Templar, DK, and Arcanist were equally viable before subclassing, too.

Subclassing has created one overarching meta. Just because 100% of all players don't play the Charm meta does not make that any less true. But don't take my word for it, as I'm just going off of what dozens of threads have already bemoaned.

Radiate77 · February 20

El_Borracho wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Radiate77 I think the multitude of threads complaining about Warden charm in Cyrodiil undercut the claim that subclassing has created diversity and not homogenization.

Then people would ONLY be playing Warden by your logic, stuck to the same three skill lines.

You’ve strengthened my position. Thank you.

I must have missed the part where before subclassing people were ONLY playing Nightblade. Or Sorc. Or Warden. You know, if one were to applying your logic to your conclusion.

Subclassing has created one overarching meta. Just because 100% of all players don't play the meta does not make that any less true. It’s preposterous to even suggest that. Just as more options on paper do not equate to more viable builds.

Those were your words, that everyone plays a Warden for Charm, something I know to be entirely false, but your premise was flawed from the start, and would only strengthen an already strong position that I hold.

That said, if you know how skill line valuation works, that entire list of builds presented were equally viable to the most popular one picked. They are all of the same tier, and someone with game knowledge could get on any of the above and compete.

All of which see high pick rates.

Without Subclassing you have three classes to choose from, instead of 20 top, competitive options. You can’t argue that “players don’t play the meta” when we’ve all seen it for the last 10 years.

Anybody with more than 2 years played can spot the pattern of horrid balance we’ve dealt with prior to Subclassing, with always 1-3 classes performing leagues ahead of everyone else.

To try to brand a system that opens up options as anything but, is disingenuous.

Lord_Hev · February 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

Okay so they remove Subclassing from PvP, what do you propose happens?…

People who have been using Streak switch to Sorcerer and split your head open with the highest burst in the game moving at Mach 5.

People who have been using Incap switch to Nightblade and continue to do exactly what they have been, except they are invisible 90% of the time again.

People who use Shalks go back to building 40k health unkillable Polar Wind spamming Wardens.

Removing Subclassing from PvP would solve none of the problem Classes, because they were a problem before Subclassing. All that would accomplish, would be to reduce the visibility of Skill Lines from Necromancer, Templar, Arcanist, and Dragonknight in PvP.

You attempt a strawman argument but describe 3 distinct and unique identifiable playstyles. So I gave your post an agree. Would love for pvp to return to balance and distinct -differing playstyles- again, yes.

Bubosh · February 20

"20 top competitive options" someone is failing to admit reality about eso seriously no front but that's just not true, a look into any pvp streamed Gameplay for only 10 minutes showcases everyone running the same 3 combinations since these are the only competitive ones. Its rly sad to see the same exact person going into every possible post to just try to make ppl believe on what he wants the game to be like. Op is totally right subclassing destroyed all the competitive environments with ranked systems in this game and subclassing should be turned off definitely in any pvp environment or any of these ranked environments at all.

Radiate77 · February 20

Just because something is easy, does not make it stronger. It just means you have to work harder to be the same strength using other options.

Balance was a mess before Subclassing, balance would be a mess after Subclassing.

The skill lines that are favored, all have similar value but split into different directions.

Radiate77 · February 20

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Okay so they remove Subclassing from PvP, what do you propose happens?…

People who have been using Streak switch to Sorcerer and split your head open with the highest burst in the game moving at Mach 5.

People who have been using Incap switch to Nightblade and continue to do exactly what they have been, except they are invisible 90% of the time again.

People who use Shalks go back to building 40k health unkillable Polar Wind spamming Wardens.

Removing Subclassing from PvP would solve none of the problem Classes, because they were a problem before Subclassing. All that would accomplish, would be to reduce the visibility of Skill Lines from Necromancer, Templar, Arcanist, and Dragonknight in PvP.

You attempt a strawman argument but describe 3 distinct and unique identifiable playstyles. So I gave your post an agree. Would love for pvp to return to balance and distinct -differing playstyles- again, yes.

Distinct overpowered, repeatedly complained about playstyles that overtook everything else within the realm of possibility.

moderatelyfatman · February 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

Okay so they remove Subclassing from PvP, what do you propose happens?…

People who have been using Streak switch to Sorcerer and split your head open with the highest burst in the game moving at Mach 5.

People who have been using Incap switch to Nightblade and continue to do exactly what they have been, except they are invisible 90% of the time again.

People who use Shalks go back to building 40k health unkillable Polar Wind spamming Wardens.

Removing Subclassing from PvP would solve none of the problem Classes, because they were a problem before Subclassing. All that would accomplish, would be to reduce the visibility of Skill Lines from Necromancer, Templar, Arcanist, and Dragonknight in PvP.

Actually, before subclassing people were complaining about PvP being at an all-time low due to the lack of diversity with everyone being either a Nightblade, a DK, a tank warden or a shield sorc.

In hindsight, that point is now 200 feet in the air above where PvP is now.

Emeratis · February 20

I like subclassing more than I hate it but I wish that there was more power in thematic builds than not. Thematic builds are largely in the same boat as monoclass in others with largely lower base power. For example, I asked an old pvp theorycrafting buddy to theorycraft a bunnyhop dragon leap dk build since the u49 updates to it sound really fun. After a few hours of back and forth he insisted I probably had to take animal companion from wardens for the shalks burst despite thematically I wanted to just "stealth in, dk leap, refuse to elaborate, leave" kinda playstyle.

The problem currently is some skills or passives just have largely higher value than others. Obviously the class reworks aim to fix this but we're still stuck in at least a year of balance limbo. While I grit my teeth and bear it for pve trials, I haven't enjoyed pvp in eso in a hot minute so I largely get in a mood where I miss it then go in for a few days then am reminded why I left my pvping to other games.

Just wanted to chime in since I think I offer a different perspective than those who have said things so far.

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

IMO you have ruined PVP by implementing sublcassing. It's great and alot of fun in PVE

This is only true at overland and lighter levels of play, sadly...Also for healers, healers have the most build diversity they've ever had and that's great but I rarely heal these days due to the guilds I'm in having an overabundance of healers so I'm often on dps where your choices are far more rigid. I do enjoy my thematic overland builds though.

blktauna · 2:36AM

"People who have been using Streak switch to Sorcerer and split your head open with the highest burst in the game moving at Mach 5.

People who have been using Incap switch to Nightblade and continue to do exactly what they have been, except they are invisible 90% of the time again.

People who use Shalks go back to building 40k health unkillable Polar Wind spamming Wardens."

sorc, yeah but they won't have overlapping warden charms while they move at mach5 and specbow you ontop of it.

NBs, Yeah they can incap but they won't be running charm, shalks and mages wrath all at the same time.

Wardens, theyre already 40k polar wind tanks that now merciless you and streak through you.

There's no counters, there's no rock paper scissors, there is zero diversity and I'm amazed you keep insisting there is. Everyone (as it were) is running the same combinations. The combos have few counters and its tedious, not fun.

Radiate77 · 2:52AM

I’ll tell you what, why don’t we set aside some time and I’ll stream a night of BGs, and you guys can count how many players I run into running those three skill lines combined.

Let’s make it fun, if I run into 5 unique players running it, then I’ll end the stream.

That is how confident I am that this is nowhere near the problem that the vocal minority project it to be.

Radiate77 · 2:53AM

On the flip side though, I want you guys to keep tallies on how many skill lines we do see. And if it’s more than 9, I will also end the stream.

This is how we can put this debate to rest.

Renato90085 · 7:19AM

i think it about MMR
my pvp main toon is a necro ,in old patch i main use 2 class set do pvp,but since subclass, all game have half(9-12?) player is meta build so i must take 2 meta subclass line or just keep my pure necro and alway lose...
but my pure sorc since U46 not do any pvp so all BG is fight with 50-500 cp pure class or pve build,my pure sorc still good in low rank
high rank only 2-3 build can work is a true fact

Radiate77 · 7:26AM

@Renato90085, there is no MMR, and like I said, I’m more than willing to schedule a BG night and play one of my “non-meta” builds and sweep lobbies back-to-back while showcasing the diversity that you actually see when queuing up.

I’ll tell you what, I’d even play my old pure-class Necro who is still wearing Olo & Essence Thief from 2020, just to drive the point home.

Bubosh · 7:36AM

You are actually missing the fact about who that "vocal minority" really is, it's you. It is basically in every single thread only you @Radiate77, there is no such variety played in pvp environments and that is facts everyone knows it starts with everyone using netch line and ends with only 2-3 different skill options added to that but yes go ahead and stream what others streaming already every single day can't wait to see that gameplay. Telling also like "there is no MMR" just speaks for itself and your "knowledge" about the game.

Radiate77 · 7:48AM

Bubosh wrote: »

You are actually missing the fact about who that "vocal minority" really is, it's you. It is basically in every single thread only you @Radiate77, there is no such variety played in pvp environments and that is facts everyone knows it starts with everyone using netch line and ends with only 2 different skill options added to that but yes go ahead and stream what others streaming already every single day can't wait to see that gameplay.

Alright, I’m unsure if I’m going to get stuck with a double tomorrow night, but if that proves to be the case, my friend Theist can hop on and drive that point home.

I’ll double check with him just to be sure if worst case scenario, and I’ll post a time as soon as I know one.

Remember though, we’re looking for 9 different skill lines, or I’ll be generous THREE people using this specific combo…

Assassination + Stormcalling + Animal Companions

Bubosh wrote: »

. Telling also like "there is no MMR" just speaks for itself and your "knowledge" about the game.

An edit for an edit, you do realize that Kevin himself has stated that they are looking into a solution for MMR, right? Talk about a lack of “knowledge” go hop in the Battlegrounds thread and do some reading.

Bubosh · 7:51AM

There won't be 9 competitive variety skill line combinations. But go ahead and play these imaginary 9 skill combos and see yourself getting stomped most of the times yes. @Radiate77

Radiate77 · 7:51AM

Bubosh wrote: »

There won't be 9 competitive variety skill combinations.

Why are you moving the goalpost?

Listen I’m not going to argue with someone who doesn’t even know that Battlegrounds have MMR reset weekly.

Bubosh · 7:55AM

It was and is the point since always you just don't want to admit and still you are trying to pretend as pure class can compete against the 2-3 bis subclass Options which you most likely can't as long as the 2 people dueling are comparable good in skill and that's just facts. Telling pure class is competitive is the worst statement you are trying to do and again just showcases your game knowledge @Radiate77

wolfie1.0. · 7:55AM

lets go waaaayyyyy back...

I want the Fortified Nirn Meta to make a comeback.

Radiate77 · 7:58AM

Bubosh wrote: »

It isn't and it was and is the point since always you just don't want to admit and still you are trying to pretend as pure class can compete against the 2-3 bis subclass Options which you most likely can't as long as the 2 people dueling are comparable good in skill and that's just facts. Telling pure class is competitive is the worst statement you are trying to do and again just showcases your game knowledge

Oh I know Pure Class Necromancer is horrible, it was my main since Elsweyr.

If people spent less time complaining and more time learning how to block and animation cancel, we’d have far fewer rant threads scapegoating an albeit flawed, system.

Radiate77 · 7:59AM

Be honest though, @Bubosh if I get a stream set up are gonna watch it? Don’t waste my time.

Bubosh · 7:59AM

Its not only Necro it's every single pure class against subclassed best 3 options has no chance in a evenly duel playing field just you don't want to admit and you are the vocal minority in every single thread @Radiate77

Radiate77 · 8:01AM

Bubosh wrote: »

Its not only Necro it's every single pure class against subclassed best 3 options has no chance in a evenly duel playing field just you don't want to admit and you are the vocal minority in every single thread

People are done clicking on ragebait, and one time opening this thread is enough to tell the OP has no idea what they’re talking about.

I can point to several threads where people who prefer Subclassing have completely ratio’d people who don’t, and it’s not even a contest.

Keeping in mind this entire forum is also, a minority.

Bubosh · 8:02AM

Tbh no one will watch you most likely because everyone In this forum knows about you being the loud vocal minority about the topic and you kinda showcaing the missing knowledge with every single post nowadays because you are in panic about something you love so much to have it being changed and that's just true sorry buddy. @Radiate77