What is a Class?

SneaK · February 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

Do you guys really think this is what we want?
Post-refresh, if you Subclass, you are just weaker. 😂

Way to take an incredible system’s feedback about imbalance, and instead of correcting that balance, we’re just gonna flip it on its head.

Even after a PERFECT class refresh where all Skill Lines become balanced, Player Classes are left underperforming in a future with “Class Mastery” Skill Lines.

How was nobody in the room while this was being proposed, asking, “how will this effect people who Subclass?”

This will very well be the death of Subclassing for everything but the most meta Skill Line combinations. I hope you guys are happy.

Everything but the most meta skill lines are already dead though.

Radiate77 · February 19

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Do you guys really think this is what we want?
Post-refresh, if you Subclass, you are just weaker. 😂

Way to take an incredible system’s feedback about imbalance, and instead of correcting that balance, we’re just gonna flip it on its head.

Even after a PERFECT class refresh where all Skill Lines become balanced, Player Classes are left underperforming in a future with “Class Mastery” Skill Lines.

How was nobody in the room while this was being proposed, asking, “how will this effect people who Subclass?”

This will very well be the death of Subclassing for everything but the most meta Skill Line combinations. I hope you guys are happy.

Everything but the most meta skill lines are already dead though.

Are you joking? Do I need to start streaming my gameplay?

All of the combinations in my Signature work great, but they are going to work less great next update when those passives roll out! This is nothing short of a mess. The Class Refresh was conceptualized to fix the imbalance of dedicated role-centric skill lines, and they are going one step further?…

So Starter Class exclusionists that had to suffer through the initial start-up of Subclassing, will get to overpower everyone.

What’s that saying?

Two wrongs make a right?
-or-
Two wrongs DONT make a right?

None of us asked for overpowered combinations, we just wanted the creative freedom to play how we want, with the skills we want within the paradigm of the rules.

Why is the paradigm shifting against us?

Radiate77 · February 19

What an absolute mess.
I cannot fathom the hubris in decisions like these.

Skyrim is still being bought and played in the year 2026, 15 years later from when it released. The Oblivion Remaster absolutely blew up in popularity.

People like The Elder Scrolls.
We are here, BECAUSE of the Elder Scrolls IP.

But go on with your bad selves, make the game less Elder Scrolls, take away our efficiency, remove our creative freedom.

One step forward with Subclassing, two steps back with Class Mastery Skill Lines.

Rungar · February 19

the class mastery is actually not too bad, its just two extra situational passives which is fair imo considering the extreme versatility subclassing allows. I imagine their only other option was to take away passives from subclassing so this is the better route as nothing is actually taken away and there would likely be some choice for the different roles.

of course none of this would matter if the game wasnt so helbent to maximise dps at the cost of everything else. Maybe theres hope for the Sages Vault.

Radiate77 · February 19

Rungar wrote: »

the class mastery is actually not too bad, its just two extra situational passives which is fair imo considering the extreme versatility subclassing allows. I imagine their only other option was to take away passives from subclassing so this is the better route as nothing is actually taken away and there would likely be some choice for the different roles.

of course none of this would matter if the game wasnt so helbent to maximise dps at the cost of everything else. Maybe theres hope for the Sages Vault.

I appreciate you trying to tackle this with a level head, but this is “too bad” this is absolutely horrid and makes a statement.

One they will find out the hard way, that many of us will not stick around to hear. There are way too many great games out right now for people to decide to stick around and get punished.

And that’s what this is. If you Subclass, you will be punished by those who don’t. If I have to go back to playing the same character, doing the same things that I’ve been doing for a decade, I won’t. I will just stop playing.

Subclassing brought me back from a two year break, now I’m considering whether that was a smart idea as I watch them walk it back patch-by-patch.

Rungar · February 19

how are you being punished? Should there be no tradeoff for subclassing? This is actually pretty minor and in no way will match the versatility you gain by swapping out a entire line.

like ive said and have always said these are only issues in a game hellbent on dps. It dont matter what you do when people perceive only the absolute best build as viable and thats pretty common in this game. It also invalidates most of the armor sets..but i guess they dont see it that way.

you just cant have anything good when you do it that way.

Radiate77 · February 19

Rungar wrote: »

how are you being punished? Should there be no tradeoff for subclassing? This is actually pretty minor and in no way will match the versatility you gain by swapping out an entire line.

You get two of these, for free. There is nothing minor about it, I suggest you pull up the Stream and look at what we have heading our way.

thesarahandcompany · February 19

Incoming critique of the so-called subclassing system (sorry):

The fundamental problem is that subclassing is not truly "subclassing." It's swapping out skill lines for others the way you would swap out skills from Mages Guild for those in the Fighter's Guild, but with extra steps and trade-offs.

I just don't think it was implemented well. I think good subclassing would have looked like:

Dragonknight Primary
Subclass Warden
-Abilities are altered to mimic an icy fire dragon/cold fire dragon. E.g., Engulfing Flames deals ice damage, can applied chilled. Etc. Passive focus less on "burning" and on "chilled" etc.

Templar Primary
Subclass Nightblade
-Abilities are altered to mimic an Dark Paladin who is corrupted. E.g., Radiant Light is now a darker beam, deals slightly less damage, but lifesteals/restores health back to the caster.

Sorc Primary
Necro Subclass
-Sorcs has the power to summon the living and then resummon them faster when they die and they are enhanced. E.g., if a volatile familiar is cast, dies, then the Sorc can resummon by using the "corpse" and the familiar is instantly brought back and deals increased damage for X seconds.

So many different ways subclassign could have been done and the way it was done just felt rushed. That's why we have to have conversations about "is my class even my class anymore???"

Emeratis · February 19

I'm going to avoid knee jerk reactions and just ask some general questions about the new announcement/system for my initial thoughts. As I mentioned before, I have characters that I prefer subclassed and others I prefer their base/main class only (kinda hate the term pureclass but semantics), so I have a personal interest in seeing both thrive and be options on the table. There are also people who feel strongly about subclassing remaining viable who play at more competitive levels of play so keeping it a casual/rp/overland thing really isn't going to cut it.

I think the Mastery passives might be ok, especially if the system will be adaptable and changes in levels of power based on the pulse of the game's combat balance, or if maybe after class rebalancing is done you get 1/5 passives for every base class line you have (up to 3) perhaps. We know so little it's hard to speculate past what we know so I'm keeping my stuff general. My main concern is sublcassing is losing concentrated power in skill lines as they mentioned in the stream and having class mastery now be a thing at the same time. I do worry, as others have expressed, that both are too much of a power swing away from subclassing and will just lead to the opposite problem. We already have so many abandoned skill lines and systems in game that had a brief meteoric rise and then were abandoned so it's understandable those who subclassing had a positive or hopeful impact on are worried about things.

Also, the elephant in the room is those who say "subclassing still has diversity", but the problem is how the system was implemented meant it never really did outside of easier overland content. We all know many skill lines had higher or lower desirability from the start. Similarly, even before subclassing there were classes that were functionally dead in pvp or pve while others were so overtuned it was almost all you saw (see pve arcanist in the patches before subclassing on esologs for example). For years since toughness got removed from war horn and added to a warden passive only, healers have been forced to more or less bring the class or skill line into pve even if they don't like or enjoy healing on a warden. I can give more examples that were just as "do this or else" before subclassing was even imagined into the game. They fall into the same pitfalls over and over again with balance of not understanding how different players with different motivations will interact with their systems. My main class, nightblade, has been struggling for years on and off in pve and I'm not overly confident class mastery is going to change that or make it better. I also don't think it's going to give my dk, necro, nb, and sorc healers I prefer to play breathing room and creative freedom.

I think the main question is what solutions are there if the power gap is reversed between monoclass and subclassing, because just as monoclass being functionally dead right now cannot stand, neither can the opposite without the same sense of disgruntlement. I just want both options to feel good for the characters I want to be one or the other and see more combat diversity in game because these changes often miss the mark even if they are brought up with good intentions.

I also feel given the weight base class now has on things in regards to new systems and how many of us made characters before certain classes released and have years of investment in time/resources/etc in them, we need a class change token. I don't think it's fair for people who didn't feel great about the original class system to be chained to a class that may not fit their character as well as it used to. With reworks, class scripts, sets, etc there is a lot more most of us never got to take into account and choose that now impacts the feel of our characters pretty dramatically. Also, what if similar situations arise to one of mine in the future when new classes release? I have a bosmer spinner character I made before warden existed in game that I didn't want to delete and remake due to investment of in game resources/funds into and I know others with similar for necromancer or other classes added later on. I know it was off the table a while ago, as were other things ZOS changed their minds and invested in before though. I think a lot of us will find some of these changes easier to stomach if it was an option.

Again, my initial thoughts. Overall I'm feeling pretty neutral about the changes but intend to follow them closely and give feedback at every step I can. Really just want to see my characters feel good no matter what build/role they're running or what they're doing.

Arboz · February 20

For me, ESO gives you the opportunity to CREATE a Class. Any Class.
Its not determined by professions, but instead you have a huge toolbox of skills to make your own.

I created, for example, an ice troll that is a bulky, regenerative beast, stubbornly throwing ice rocks at its prey and intimidating it by its grotesque appearance and strenght.
Without subclassing this wouldnt be possible in the same manner.

So, you create your class yourself.

Rungar · February 20

it also may not be a bad idea to give a single mastery at 2 same class lines and 2 at 3 lines, with only fully subclassed builds not having access to this system.

Or a mastery for each same line you have might work also giving a pureclass 3 masteries, subclassed single line 2 and subclassed two lines a single one. At least everyone gets access to the system in some way. Though the ones you can access are dependant on the lines you have since they will be skill based.

SneaK · February 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Do you guys really think this is what we want?
Post-refresh, if you Subclass, you are just weaker. 😂

Way to take an incredible system’s feedback about imbalance, and instead of correcting that balance, we’re just gonna flip it on its head.

Even after a PERFECT class refresh where all Skill Lines become balanced, Player Classes are left underperforming in a future with “Class Mastery” Skill Lines.

How was nobody in the room while this was being proposed, asking, “how will this effect people who Subclass?”

This will very well be the death of Subclassing for everything but the most meta Skill Line combinations. I hope you guys are happy.

Everything but the most meta skill lines are already dead though.

Are you joking? Do I need to start streaming my gameplay?

All of the combinations in my Signature work great, but they are going to work less great next update when those passives roll out! This is nothing short of a mess. The Class Refresh was conceptualized to fix the imbalance of dedicated role-centric skill lines, and they are going one step further?…

So Starter Class exclusionists that had to suffer through the initial start-up of Subclassing, will get to overpower everyone.

What’s that saying?

Two wrongs make a right?
-or-
Two wrongs DONT make a right?

None of us asked for overpowered combinations, we just wanted the creative freedom to play how we want, with the skills we want within the paradigm of the rules.

Why is the paradigm shifting against us?

Had to log in from a computer to see your signature.. anyway, it won’t make your mutts less effective, it’s not a nerf to subclassing, it’s a buff for base classes that are in need of it. There is way too far of a gap right now between base classes and subclassing. It’s an extreme gap. These passives (drafts) add some incentive to log into my Templar, or my Necro, or my Sorc, who have all been on the back burner since Subclassing was introduced. Why play those characters currently when my NB or DK have everything unlocked and i can just pick and choose from other skill lines to create unique builds? Literally, I have multiple characters but zero reason to play them, it’s not worth the effort when their base classes is so trash and they don’t have the skill points to subclass to a competitive spec.

Radiate77 wrote: »

What an absolute mess.
I cannot fathom the hubris in decisions like these.

Skyrim is still being bought and played in the year 2026, 15 years later from when it released. The Oblivion Remaster absolutely blew up in popularity.

People like The Elder Scrolls.
We are here, BECAUSE of the Elder Scrolls IP.

But go on with your bad selves, make the game less Elder Scrolls, take away our efficiency, remove our creative freedom.

One step forward with Subclassing, two steps back with Class Mastery Skill Lines.

I am not here cause of ES IP, ESO is my first and likely only ES game. Could care less about the lore, not saying it’s not neat tho.

Mrtoobyy · February 20

Anything but this piece of crap that is called subclassing. My points regards PVP not PVE.
Subclass should be REMOVED from pvp if they don't adjust the skills.

The current BG's should be scrapped as well and return the 4v4v4.
I really don't understand ZOS logic behind alot of the changes they do to this game. They are like a workplace that JUST NEEDS to fiddle with things. Fixing what is not broken for the sake of "updating" it and when the process is going it's too late and the damage is already done.

THANK GOD this game is free to play. IMO they don't deserve alot of money for what they've done the past years. I am grateful for the changes they have said they are doing this year. I really hope it corrects alot of the bad things done to this game.
If this year don't deliver I will probably drop this game for the future ( been playing since BETA) so it's sad.

Anyone want a free account?

jaekobcaed · 6:28AM

To me, ESO classes are meant to give you a basis to work from in terms of builds and storytelling. In a lot of MMOs, and RPGs in general, classes feel so artificial to me. TES was always a bit better on that in the way it handled your proficiency with specific gear and skills but in MMOs, I don't enjoy having to use specific classes to use specific gear.

In the ESO reveal video back in 2012, ZOS mentioned how class and gear combos introduced a lot of fun roleplaying elements: "you can play a heavy armored tank with a bow, or a sneaky guy who runs around the battlefield healing people" (paraphrasing a bit). I like the freedom and roleplaying, personally. My main is a Templar but he's a Psijic mage uses magic of all forms, including shadow magic (that part is headcanon, naturally), and he doesn't follow any of the Tamrielic gods, instead pursuing academic knowledge of a God unknown by anyone else on Nirn. My secondary character is a Dragonknight dual-bladed martial artist who is also an archer, raised by Ordinators and trained on the bow by Imperial snipers. My tertiary character is a Nord Warden who grew up in Skyrim but ended up finding herself allied with the Aldmeri Dominion (for reasons I'm still determining) and she doesn't really use nature for anything but her own gain. I also have ideas for a Khajiit Necromancer that I want to make someday and he'll be someone who learned necromancy, only to desire to use it as a weapon against necromancers, as he found a new outlook on the beauty of life itself.

The freedom to contradict produces so much natural roleplaying potential. And in my opinion, any RPG that has systems which naturally create roleplaying opportunity is a successful RPG.