Maintenance for the week of March 2:
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New Dragonknight ability and passive names still need changes
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Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: ».
Reman Cyrodiil was a dragon born, and used the thu'um. Aka the storm voice. Its the same thing.While we wait to hear back from ZOS, which we hopefully will, I'll put out some suggestions:
The Storm Voice Reman's Battle Cry - The voice of Emperor Reman is still remembered by the dragonknights of today.
They had apparently been searching for Dragonborn, and when they heard Reman's voice during the climactic battle at Pale Pass, they realized what he was, knelt, and swore fealty to him resulting in the formation of the Dragonguard.[14][15]
^this is exactly what happens with the Last Dragonborn several times in Skyrim and the Blades who came from Reman's Dragonguard find out you can thu'um, they immediately look to see if you can absorb dragon souls and have his blood.
If you're okay with Reman being referenced, and his voice, you should be fine with the actual title of his power being mentioned and referenced, the thu'um, the storm voice, which is where the kiai is derived from and the akaviri arts of using it.
I was being charitable, since you are so insistent about it being the Thu'um despite clear evidence to the contrary. I had zero issue with the old name Battle Roar. I can live with it being a reference to Reman, since that would actually make sense regardless of whether the Dragonknights are using the Thu'um or not.
If ZOS wants to do a retcon, then sure, it's their game. But then they need to do it right, and I don't see them putting in that effort, nor do I want them to, because I think the dragonknights being Akaviri warriors is cooler than just trying to copy Skyrim and having it be the Dovahkiin-from-Wish class.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »
Yes you're splitting hairs and arguing semantics, yes the dragon word is dovahzul and it means the same thing. Because draconic power is the thu'um is the Voice and is Dovahzul.BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.
Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.BardokRedSnow wrote: »In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.
But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.
NPCs use some of the same abilities though.
Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".
In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.
I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".
I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.
I dont believe Storm Voice imposes this on you anymore than "Draconic Power" does since Draconic Power is the thu'um.
Especially since Akaviri in nature, is also draconic. Dragons are the source of their inspiration for the abilities which is why its tonal architecture and so similar, even the thu'um being described as releasing a kiai same as those abilities.
Divorcing the draconic thu'uming aspect from the abilities is imo what made it so weird in the first place since dragons are more familiar to tamriel than akavir and their iteration of it even if they were here during some periods of time. Dragons were here and shaped its history far more. And Nords are also far more familiar with the thu'um itself. Makes sense that they'd name something similar to thu'uming, after the thu'um.
Its not literally the thu'um, its an echo, I think most people understand that.
Draconic Power is not the Thu'um.
Draconic is literally described as the language of dragons, and their language is power, pretty much everything dragons can do magically is associated with the thu'um, it is synonymous with the Thu'um and the Voice.
The rest of this is splitting hairs for the sake of it.
I gave you the definition of the word "draconic".
You are only trying to separate draconic power from the thu'um because it goes against the narrative that relating these two abilities, the Kiai and thu'um, and dragon knights as a whole to the Dov and their power wasn't a thing prior, when it was.
In fact the kiai was related to the thu'um since Morrowind in Children of the Sky when describing Nords, who we later knew got their thu'um from Paarthurnax and were long since believed to be able to shout fully, unlike others because of Kyne. Even then, the kiai is a related power and not actually the thu'um, but still developed parallel to the thu'um from the same source; Dragons.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky
There are no other "draconic" powers Dragons are known for having in the lore, your insistence on ignoring that is why you're getting blindsided by this.
You are not engaging with the point I made at all. You are arguing in bad faith here.
But to address your point, Dragons are immortal not because of the Thu'um. That's another draconic power right there.
I am ignoring semantics and strawman arguments, how am I supposed to take most of what you're saying seriously when you say stuff like this, and reference Reman Cydrodiil, a dragonborn who the last dragonborn mimics during the main quest in Skyrim. No immortality of dragons isn't the thu'um but its not some "draconic power" either.
Dragon's immortality is not derived of the thu'um obviously, its simply their nature as creatures of time, and fractures of Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time. All aka spirits are immortal and don't age because of this. Paarthurnax's appearance for instance is merely battle scars of fighting not aging. Its not because of the thu'um, its just their nature. Akatosh himself gave his being to the mundus in order to solidify nirn into place by creating time itself. Before Akatosh did this, willingly or not, time didn't exist.
Dragons are all fragments of the whole, hence the dragonborn being able to absorb and unite them within him or herself.
If it was the thu'um alone, dragonborn wouldn't age also. Immortality is also far from a dragon thing its just the characteristic of certain aedra and daedra. That dragons dont age is for a different reason altogether but its not something anyone describes as a "draconic" power. Or dovahzul or whatever else you wanna call it.
In the lore when dragon power is referenced, its about the thu'um. Not their scales or flying, the thu'um. That the stuff related to dragon knights is called otherwise shows that these are loose associations named in inspiration, not literal. Its honoring the inspiration for the akaviri art not literally calling it the same thing.
There's nothing wrong with this.Edited by BardokRedSnow on February 11, 2026 10:38PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭Unless someone wants to describe daedra as draconic also for being immortal, I don't think that's a valid point at all. Their magics are pretty much entirely thu'um related, and even when we see for instance Nafaalilargus or real name Nahfahlaar use magic, its through tonal architecture like his horn being used to bring down other dragons.
So even when we had an example of another power being used indirectly from a dragon with their literal horn, its via tonal architecture same as the kiai and works similarly. Dragon Power is related to the voiceBardokRedSnow wrote: ».
Reman Cyrodiil was a dragon born, and used the thu'um. Aka the storm voice. Its the same thing.While we wait to hear back from ZOS, which we hopefully will, I'll put out some suggestions:
The Storm Voice Reman's Battle Cry - The voice of Emperor Reman is still remembered by the dragonknights of today.
They had apparently been searching for Dragonborn, and when they heard Reman's voice during the climactic battle at Pale Pass, they realized what he was, knelt, and swore fealty to him resulting in the formation of the Dragonguard.[14][15]
^this is exactly what happens with the Last Dragonborn several times in Skyrim and the Blades who came from Reman's Dragonguard find out you can thu'um, they immediately look to see if you can absorb dragon souls and have his blood.
If you're okay with Reman being referenced, and his voice, you should be fine with the actual title of his power being mentioned and referenced, the thu'um, the storm voice, which is where the kiai is derived from and the akaviri arts of using it.
I was being charitable, since you are so insistent about it being the Thu'um despite clear evidence to the contrary. I had zero issue with the old name Battle Roar. I can live with it being a reference to Reman, since that would actually make sense regardless of whether the Dragonknights are using the Thu'um or not.
If ZOS wants to do a retcon, then sure, it's their game. But then they need to do it right, and I don't see them putting in that effort, nor do I want them to, because I think the dragonknights being Akaviri warriors is cooler than just trying to copy Skyrim and having it be the Dovahkiin-from-Wish class.
I dont have a problem with you thinking this is more appropriate, because Reman is a more direct reference to the Akavir and that more directly relates to dragon knights.
But to say the Storm Voice isn't appropriate at all is the point of contention I have when Skyrim pretty much confirmed for us that Reman's voice and blood was because he was dragonborn and its the only voice related ability we knew he had. Even the racial power they give imperials is called Voice of the Emperor and works the same way and only for the dragonborn. They also have the Nord racial ability thats called battlecry, and also works similarly. They've been relating powers that involve yelling and speaking of some sort to the thu'um and dragons since 11/11/11, even uttering sounds once powerful enough, speaking in any way without forming words was a characteristic of the greybeards.
It doesn't have to be 1 to 1 to be considered thu'um related. Dragon Knights and kiai definitely are even though not directly or literally. You'd have to do much more retconning and separating to say otherwise.
edit: Since Morrowind rather, 11/11/11, Skyrim, just firmly solidified the lore surrounding Reman that we already had. Also what skyrim did with voice of the emperor is change how it was cast, not the effect itself, oblivion and morrowind its just a magic ability and targetted one person a day, skyrim its spoken and its everyone in 75 feetEdited by BardokRedSnow on February 12, 2026 7:25PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
Yes you're splitting hairs and arguing semantics, yes the dragon word is dovahzul and it means the same thing. Because draconic power is the thu'um is the Voice and is Dovahzul.BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.
Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.BardokRedSnow wrote: »In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.
But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.
NPCs use some of the same abilities though.
Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".
In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.
I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".
I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.
I dont believe Storm Voice imposes this on you anymore than "Draconic Power" does since Draconic Power is the thu'um.
Especially since Akaviri in nature, is also draconic. Dragons are the source of their inspiration for the abilities which is why its tonal architecture and so similar, even the thu'um being described as releasing a kiai same as those abilities.
Divorcing the draconic thu'uming aspect from the abilities is imo what made it so weird in the first place since dragons are more familiar to tamriel than akavir and their iteration of it even if they were here during some periods of time. Dragons were here and shaped its history far more. And Nords are also far more familiar with the thu'um itself. Makes sense that they'd name something similar to thu'uming, after the thu'um.
Its not literally the thu'um, its an echo, I think most people understand that.
Draconic Power is not the Thu'um.
Draconic is literally described as the language of dragons, and their language is power, pretty much everything dragons can do magically is associated with the thu'um, it is synonymous with the Thu'um and the Voice.
The rest of this is splitting hairs for the sake of it.
I gave you the definition of the word "draconic".
You are only trying to separate draconic power from the thu'um because it goes against the narrative that relating these two abilities, the Kiai and thu'um, and dragon knights as a whole to the Dov and their power wasn't a thing prior, when it was.
In fact the kiai was related to the thu'um since Morrowind in Children of the Sky when describing Nords, who we later knew got their thu'um from Paarthurnax and were long since believed to be able to shout fully, unlike others because of Kyne. Even then, the kiai is a related power and not actually the thu'um, but still developed parallel to the thu'um from the same source; Dragons.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky
There are no other "draconic" powers Dragons are known for having in the lore, your insistence on ignoring that is why you're getting blindsided by this.
You are not engaging with the point I made at all. You are arguing in bad faith here.
But to address your point, Dragons are immortal not because of the Thu'um. That's another draconic power right there.
I am ignoring semantics and strawman arguments, how am I supposed to take most of what you're saying seriously when you say stuff like this, and reference Reman Cydrodiil, a dragonborn who the last dragonborn mimics during the main quest in Skyrim. No immortality of dragons isn't the thu'um but its not some "draconic power" either.
Dragon's immortality is not derived of the thu'um obviously, its simply their nature as creatures of time, and fractures of Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time. All aka spirits are immortal and don't age because of this. Paarthurnax's appearance for instance is merely battle scars of fighting not aging. Its not because of the thu'um, its just their nature. Akatosh himself gave his being to the mundus in order to solidify nirn into place by creating time itself. Before Akatosh did this, willingly or not, time didn't exist.
Dragons are all fragments of the whole, hence the dragonborn being able to absorb and unite them within him or herself.
If it was the thu'um alone, dragonborn wouldn't age also. Immortality is also far from a dragon thing its just the characteristic of certain aedra and daedra. That dragons dont age is for a different reason altogether but its not something anyone describes as a "draconic" power. Or dovahzul or whatever else you wanna call it.
In the lore when dragon power is referenced, its about the thu'um. Not their scales or flying, the thu'um. That the stuff related to dragon knights is called otherwise shows that these are loose associations named in inspiration, not literal. Its honoring the inspiration for the akaviri art not literally calling it the same thing.
There's nothing wrong with this.
I don't care if you take what I'm saying seriously. I'm not trying to convince you here. I made my points. You have done nothing to refute them. I suspect you can't. Now everyone can form their own opinions based on this exchange.
You are ignoring more than just "semantics" here as you have not once engaged with the point I was making about Gabrielle Benele clearly denying that Dragonknights have anything to do with the dragon language. You making this about the word "Draconic" is you bringing semantics into the discussion, and then you conveniently ignore every argument made against it. Dragons are not the only beings that are immortal and timeless. Daedra are too, because time is a concept of creation and they are not part of creation. So it is worth noting that the immortality of dragons, who are part of creation, is a feature of them being dragons - a draconic feature. And no, "draconic" does not refer to a language here, because you still seem to be confused about that. It's still just an adjective.
And yet despite all this, you still want every Khajiit, every Altmer, every Argonian, every Orc and every Bosmer dragonknight to be wielders of the Thu'um, even though said earlier that you don't want that. Make that make sense to me. Actually, don't. Your entire argument is based on vibes and you want it to be referring to the actual Thu'um when convenient, but not when it takes away from the specialness of it - but any explicit connection between dragonknights and the Thu'um would have always taken away from its specialness.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
Yes you're splitting hairs and arguing semantics, yes the dragon word is dovahzul and it means the same thing. Because draconic power is the thu'um is the Voice and is Dovahzul.BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.
Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.BardokRedSnow wrote: »In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.
But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.
NPCs use some of the same abilities though.
Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".
In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.
I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".
I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.
I dont believe Storm Voice imposes this on you anymore than "Draconic Power" does since Draconic Power is the thu'um.
Especially since Akaviri in nature, is also draconic. Dragons are the source of their inspiration for the abilities which is why its tonal architecture and so similar, even the thu'um being described as releasing a kiai same as those abilities.
Divorcing the draconic thu'uming aspect from the abilities is imo what made it so weird in the first place since dragons are more familiar to tamriel than akavir and their iteration of it even if they were here during some periods of time. Dragons were here and shaped its history far more. And Nords are also far more familiar with the thu'um itself. Makes sense that they'd name something similar to thu'uming, after the thu'um.
Its not literally the thu'um, its an echo, I think most people understand that.
Draconic Power is not the Thu'um.
Draconic is literally described as the language of dragons, and their language is power, pretty much everything dragons can do magically is associated with the thu'um, it is synonymous with the Thu'um and the Voice.
The rest of this is splitting hairs for the sake of it.
I gave you the definition of the word "draconic".
You are only trying to separate draconic power from the thu'um because it goes against the narrative that relating these two abilities, the Kiai and thu'um, and dragon knights as a whole to the Dov and their power wasn't a thing prior, when it was.
In fact the kiai was related to the thu'um since Morrowind in Children of the Sky when describing Nords, who we later knew got their thu'um from Paarthurnax and were long since believed to be able to shout fully, unlike others because of Kyne. Even then, the kiai is a related power and not actually the thu'um, but still developed parallel to the thu'um from the same source; Dragons.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky
There are no other "draconic" powers Dragons are known for having in the lore, your insistence on ignoring that is why you're getting blindsided by this.
You are not engaging with the point I made at all. You are arguing in bad faith here.
But to address your point, Dragons are immortal not because of the Thu'um. That's another draconic power right there.
I am ignoring semantics and strawman arguments, how am I supposed to take most of what you're saying seriously when you say stuff like this, and reference Reman Cydrodiil, a dragonborn who the last dragonborn mimics during the main quest in Skyrim. No immortality of dragons isn't the thu'um but its not some "draconic power" either.
Dragon's immortality is not derived of the thu'um obviously, its simply their nature as creatures of time, and fractures of Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time. All aka spirits are immortal and don't age because of this. Paarthurnax's appearance for instance is merely battle scars of fighting not aging. Its not because of the thu'um, its just their nature. Akatosh himself gave his being to the mundus in order to solidify nirn into place by creating time itself. Before Akatosh did this, willingly or not, time didn't exist.
Dragons are all fragments of the whole, hence the dragonborn being able to absorb and unite them within him or herself.
If it was the thu'um alone, dragonborn wouldn't age also. Immortality is also far from a dragon thing its just the characteristic of certain aedra and daedra. That dragons dont age is for a different reason altogether but its not something anyone describes as a "draconic" power. Or dovahzul or whatever else you wanna call it.
In the lore when dragon power is referenced, its about the thu'um. Not their scales or flying, the thu'um. That the stuff related to dragon knights is called otherwise shows that these are loose associations named in inspiration, not literal. Its honoring the inspiration for the akaviri art not literally calling it the same thing.
There's nothing wrong with this.
I don't care if you take what I'm saying seriously. I'm not trying to convince you here. I made my points. You have done nothing to refute them. I suspect you can't. Now everyone can form their own opinions based on this exchange.
You are ignoring more than just "semantics" here as you have not once engaged with the point I was making about Gabrielle Benele clearly denying that Dragonknights have anything to do with the dragon language. You making this about the word "Draconic" is you bringing semantics into the discussion, and then you conveniently ignore every argument made against it. Dragons are not the only beings that are immortal and timeless. Daedra are too, because time is a concept of creation and they are not part of creation. So it is worth noting that the immortality of dragons, who are part of creation, is a feature of them being dragons - a draconic feature. And no, "draconic" does not refer to a language here, because you still seem to be confused about that. It's still just an adjective.
And yet despite all this, you still want every Khajiit, every Altmer, every Argonian, every Orc and every Bosmer dragonknight to be wielders of the Thu'um, even though said earlier that you don't want that. Make that make sense to me. Actually, don't. Your entire argument is based on vibes and you want it to be referring to the actual Thu'um when convenient, but not when it takes away from the specialness of it - but any explicit connection between dragonknights and the Thu'um would have always taken away from its specialness.
The bold text is why I don’t take this seriously, it’s a strawman.
I said that the dragon knight abilities aren’t the thu’um and simply naming a skill line Storm Voice doesn’t make it such. Trust me if I thought they were making khajiit tongues no one would be louder in the forums ranting against it.
Even if you disagree about “draconic power”, making my position this is as bad faith as it gets, and considering I linked it several examples of the developers naming abilities similarly and showing them relating the kiai to the Thu’um I find it odd you consider my argument going off vibes. I’m not the one making it about “draconic”, that was your semantics argument.
Either way I agree the discussion has ran its course.
Edited by BardokRedSnow on February 11, 2026 11:12PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭The TLDR of my position is if the kiai was a separate magic that worked so differently from the Thu’um that they had no resemblance then I’d agree this is inappropriate. But because it is literally made from the Akaviri observing dragons and Dragonborn, and uses tonal architecture (sound) from the mouth to initiate it, and is even mentioned in the same breath as the Thu’um in Children of the Sky, I believe it is very appropriate and aptly named even though it is not the Thu’um
If you wish to put a note like “although not the Thu’um…” that would be enough to clear confusion, but I as a Nord fan like seeing some connection to Nord culture in the dragon knights kit, not just Akaviri. I for one hope you keep the name.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Unless someone wants to describe daedra as draconic also for being immortal, I don't think that's a valid point at all. Their magics are pretty much entirely thu'um related, and even when we see for instance Nafaalilargus or real name Nahfahlaar use magic, its through tonal architecture like his horn being used to bring down other dragons.
So even when we had an example of another power being used indirectly from a dragon with their literal horn, its via tonal architecture same as the kiai and works similarly. Dragon Power is related to the voiceBardokRedSnow wrote: ».
Reman Cyrodiil was a dragon born, and used the thu'um. Aka the storm voice. Its the same thing.While we wait to hear back from ZOS, which we hopefully will, I'll put out some suggestions:
The Storm Voice Reman's Battle Cry - The voice of Emperor Reman is still remembered by the dragonknights of today.
They had apparently been searching for Dragonborn, and when they heard Reman's voice during the climactic battle at Pale Pass, they realized what he was, knelt, and swore fealty to him resulting in the formation of the Dragonguard.[14][15]
^this is exactly what happens with the Last Dragonborn several times in Skyrim and the Blades who came from Reman's Dragonguard find out you can thu'um, they immediately look to see if you can absorb dragon souls and have his blood.
If you're okay with Reman being referenced, and his voice, you should be fine with the actual title of his power being mentioned and referenced, the thu'um, the storm voice, which is where the kiai is derived from and the akaviri arts of using it.
I was being charitable, since you are so insistent about it being the Thu'um despite clear evidence to the contrary. I had zero issue with the old name Battle Roar. I can live with it being a reference to Reman, since that would actually make sense regardless of whether the Dragonknights are using the Thu'um or not.
If ZOS wants to do a retcon, then sure, it's their game. But then they need to do it right, and I don't see them putting in that effort, nor do I want them to, because I think the dragonknights being Akaviri warriors is cooler than just trying to copy Skyrim and having it be the Dovahkiin-from-Wish class.
I dont have a problem with you thinking this is more appropriate, because Reman is a more direct reference to the Akavir and that more directly relates to dragon knights.
But to say the Storm Voice isn't appropriate at all is the point of contention I have when Skyrim pretty much confirmed for us that Reman's voice and blood was because he was dragonborn and its the only voice related ability we knew he had. Even the racial power they give imperials is called Voice of the Emperor and works the same way and only for the dragonborn. They also have the Nord racial ability thats called battlecry, and also works similarly. They've been relating powers that involve yelling and speaking of some sort to the thu'um and dragons since 11/11/11, even uttering sounds once powerful enough, speaking in any way without forming words was a characteristic of the greybeards.
It doesn't have to be 1 to 1 to be considered thu'um related. Dragon Knights and kiai definitely are even though not directly or literally. You'd have to do much more retconning and separating to say otherwise.
edit: Since Morrowind rather, 11/11/11, Skyrim, just firmly solidified the lore surrounding Reman that we already had.
The Storm Voice isn't appropriate at all. You are wrong. "What Skyrim pretty much confirmed" has nothing to do with Dragonknights. Reman was not a dragonknight. Reman fought against the people who invented being dragonknights, who may or may not have done so before they set sail and met Reman. Maybe later in life, but not at the moment in time that we've been referring to so far.
If you are bringing racial powers into this discussion, it begs the question what being dragonborn has to do with Bosmer being able to calm animals? Or being able to deal double physical damage as Orc while taking only half? That too is something "only for the dragonborn". The Imperial ability being called Voice of the Emperor goes back to before Skyrim when being dragonborn and the Thu'um weren't even connected, so you can hardly use that as an argument. Especially if you are then saying "since Morrowind". But then again, if you are confusing "draconic" the adjective with "Draconic" the noun, referring to a language after English naming conventions, then I guess any time "voice" is capitalized would make you think it's the Thu'um. For the record, that Imperial racial power always struck me as the Imperial trying to use diplomacy instead of violence, which is also in line with the way it worked in Oblivion compared to the Skyrim version which has some obvious combat benefits. It's the Imperial using the metaphorical voice of the emperor, trying to claim they are there on official empire business and have diplomatic immunity.
If it doesn't have to be 1 to 1 to be considered Thu'um-related then the passive does not have to and should not be called The Storm Voice. Would you accept a Sword-Singer class having a passive with that name? Would you accept a Bosmer Spinner having a passive with that name? Would you accept a tonal architect class having a passive with that name? No? Then why should I accept a dragonknight having a passive with that name? It's not the same, even if it's similar, which we also don't know for certain if and how similar they really are, since people are only comparing them. The Akaviri Kiai might just be a kiai we know from real life martial arts, like Kendo or Karate. Or it's tonal magic. Who knows? You don't. I don't. At least Gabrielle Benele is of the opinion that it's not that special.
Also the irony of using in game mechanics as an argument, like the Voice of the Emperor, while also using Children of the Sky as a source. We saw how the Stormcloaks sieged Whiterun and it didn't involve any tongues shouting in gates and they very much had siege weapons there. As much as I think they should have given us a siege like in the book, or tongue necklaces for that matter, that book is clearly in the realm of the unreliable narrator now. Which is in contrast to Gabrielle Benele, who is still being used to author books for this game and should be regarded as a trusted source rather than a book with an unknown author that (sadly) has been contradicted multiple times already. So while I think Children of the Sky should be (made) accurate, I think it's a stretch to use such an unreliable book to make definitive statements with certainty about whether an Akaviri Kiai is a form of tonal magic in the first place. Their magic could be of a completely different nature also and only be accompanied by a regular human shout for all that we know. And because we don't know, why are we out here handing out The Storm Voice badges to something that we don't even know if it is even tonal or not? Like I said, if ZOS wants dragonknights to be using dragonshouts, they need to do a lot more than just slapping a passive on it and calling it a day. Until that happens, I'm not going to accept that name for that passive. Especially because the class is more inclusive towards all the races of Tamriel if it doesn't have the connection to the Thu'um, which you yourself claim to be exclusive to the humans (despite the Khajiit connection to both Khenarthi and dragons).This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
Yes you're splitting hairs and arguing semantics, yes the dragon word is dovahzul and it means the same thing. Because draconic power is the thu'um is the Voice and is Dovahzul.BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.
Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.BardokRedSnow wrote: »In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.
But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.
NPCs use some of the same abilities though.
Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".
In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.
I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".
I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.
I dont believe Storm Voice imposes this on you anymore than "Draconic Power" does since Draconic Power is the thu'um.
Especially since Akaviri in nature, is also draconic. Dragons are the source of their inspiration for the abilities which is why its tonal architecture and so similar, even the thu'um being described as releasing a kiai same as those abilities.
Divorcing the draconic thu'uming aspect from the abilities is imo what made it so weird in the first place since dragons are more familiar to tamriel than akavir and their iteration of it even if they were here during some periods of time. Dragons were here and shaped its history far more. And Nords are also far more familiar with the thu'um itself. Makes sense that they'd name something similar to thu'uming, after the thu'um.
Its not literally the thu'um, its an echo, I think most people understand that.
Draconic Power is not the Thu'um.
Draconic is literally described as the language of dragons, and their language is power, pretty much everything dragons can do magically is associated with the thu'um, it is synonymous with the Thu'um and the Voice.
The rest of this is splitting hairs for the sake of it.
I gave you the definition of the word "draconic".
You are only trying to separate draconic power from the thu'um because it goes against the narrative that relating these two abilities, the Kiai and thu'um, and dragon knights as a whole to the Dov and their power wasn't a thing prior, when it was.
In fact the kiai was related to the thu'um since Morrowind in Children of the Sky when describing Nords, who we later knew got their thu'um from Paarthurnax and were long since believed to be able to shout fully, unlike others because of Kyne. Even then, the kiai is a related power and not actually the thu'um, but still developed parallel to the thu'um from the same source; Dragons.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky
There are no other "draconic" powers Dragons are known for having in the lore, your insistence on ignoring that is why you're getting blindsided by this.
You are not engaging with the point I made at all. You are arguing in bad faith here.
But to address your point, Dragons are immortal not because of the Thu'um. That's another draconic power right there.
I am ignoring semantics and strawman arguments, how am I supposed to take most of what you're saying seriously when you say stuff like this, and reference Reman Cydrodiil, a dragonborn who the last dragonborn mimics during the main quest in Skyrim. No immortality of dragons isn't the thu'um but its not some "draconic power" either.
Dragon's immortality is not derived of the thu'um obviously, its simply their nature as creatures of time, and fractures of Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time. All aka spirits are immortal and don't age because of this. Paarthurnax's appearance for instance is merely battle scars of fighting not aging. Its not because of the thu'um, its just their nature. Akatosh himself gave his being to the mundus in order to solidify nirn into place by creating time itself. Before Akatosh did this, willingly or not, time didn't exist.
Dragons are all fragments of the whole, hence the dragonborn being able to absorb and unite them within him or herself.
If it was the thu'um alone, dragonborn wouldn't age also. Immortality is also far from a dragon thing its just the characteristic of certain aedra and daedra. That dragons dont age is for a different reason altogether but its not something anyone describes as a "draconic" power. Or dovahzul or whatever else you wanna call it.
In the lore when dragon power is referenced, its about the thu'um. Not their scales or flying, the thu'um. That the stuff related to dragon knights is called otherwise shows that these are loose associations named in inspiration, not literal. Its honoring the inspiration for the akaviri art not literally calling it the same thing.
There's nothing wrong with this.
I don't care if you take what I'm saying seriously. I'm not trying to convince you here. I made my points. You have done nothing to refute them. I suspect you can't. Now everyone can form their own opinions based on this exchange.
You are ignoring more than just "semantics" here as you have not once engaged with the point I was making about Gabrielle Benele clearly denying that Dragonknights have anything to do with the dragon language. You making this about the word "Draconic" is you bringing semantics into the discussion, and then you conveniently ignore every argument made against it. Dragons are not the only beings that are immortal and timeless. Daedra are too, because time is a concept of creation and they are not part of creation. So it is worth noting that the immortality of dragons, who are part of creation, is a feature of them being dragons - a draconic feature. And no, "draconic" does not refer to a language here, because you still seem to be confused about that. It's still just an adjective.
And yet despite all this, you still want every Khajiit, every Altmer, every Argonian, every Orc and every Bosmer dragonknight to be wielders of the Thu'um, even though said earlier that you don't want that. Make that make sense to me. Actually, don't. Your entire argument is based on vibes and you want it to be referring to the actual Thu'um when convenient, but not when it takes away from the specialness of it - but any explicit connection between dragonknights and the Thu'um would have always taken away from its specialness.
The bold text is why I don’t take this seriously, it’s a strawman.
I said that the dragon knight abilities aren’t the thu’um and simply naming a skill line Storm Voice doesn’t make it such. Trust me if I thought they were making khajiit tongues no one would be louder in the forums ranting against it.
Even if you disagree about “draconic power”, making my position this is as bad faith as it gets, and considering I linked it several examples of the developers naming abilities similarly and showing them relating the kiai to the Thu’um I find it odd you consider my argument going off vibes. I’m not the one making it about “draconic”, that was your semantics argument.
Either way I agree the discussion has ran its course.
Yes, because you keep distancing yourself from the Thu'um as soon as it's no longer convenient to you. But then you very much insist that the passive be called The Storm Voice, even though you yourself say it actually isn't The Storm Voice. So why not call the passive The Storm Voice That Isn't if that's your position? That's not a strawman. That's a strongman, or steelman, because you have a stronger argument if you were insisting that it is confirmation that dragonknights are using the Thu'um. That seems to be the intention from ZOS, from the way I'm reading it, which I will attribute to the combat designers not being the loremasters. The passive is not called "Tonal magic", it's called The Storm Voice. That's the Thu'um. Give someone a passive essentially called The Thu'um and then expect people to understand that just because it says "The Thu'um" on the label doesn't mean that's there is "The Thu'um" inside. That's called being a fraud.
So no, your argument makes no sense either way, but at least if you were arguing that dragonknights are all actually using the Thu'um, you'd actually have a point and some arguments going your way, since the Thu'um is associated with dragons and the Akaviri have met a dragonborn and sworn loyalty to him. So I'm addressing those points instead, because that makes your position stronger and actually relate to the topic. It's just that you also happen to dislike nonhumans using the Thu'um which ruins that position for you.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »The TLDR of my position is if the kiai was a separate magic that worked so differently from the Thu’um that they had no resemblance then I’d agree this is inappropriate. But because it is literally made from the Akaviri observing dragons and Dragonborn, and uses tonal architecture (sound) from the mouth to initiate it, and is even mentioned in the same breath as the Thu’um in Children of the Sky, I believe it is very appropriate and aptly named even though it is not the Thu’um
If you wish to put a note like “although not the Thu’um…” that would be enough to clear confusion, but I as a Nord fan like seeing some connection to Nord culture in the dragon knights kit, not just Akaviri. I for one hope you keep the name.
Source?
That's an interpretation. Did the dragonknight martial art tradition start when the Tsaesci entered Tamriel or before? Are there living dragons in Akavir? Is an Akaviri Kiai confirmed to be tonal magic? None of these questions have definitive answers. We assume the answers to all of them. It's mentioned in the same breath as the Thu'um in Children of the Sky (a highly outdated and inaccurate book) because it's an analogy, which may be very flawed. Or maybe so accurate to the point of being identical. The point is that we don't know, so passing off headcanon as canon isn't really the way forward.
The way I read The Storm Voice and the description that comes with it, they are giving us more or less a definitive answer that an Akaviri Kiai is the same as a dragon shout, assuming the lore of dragonknights coming from the dragonguard and by extension the Akaviri is still considered true at this point.
If they put in "although not the Thu'um", that would be fine with me, although I'd still find it weird. Then my criticism of the name would be purely cosmetic, like my criticism of the name Corrosive Armor, which I dropped for this thread because compared to the other two names it's not that big of a deal that there is no more acid/poison involved.
But you being a "Nord fan" is exactly what causes the problem for this discussion. Dragonknights are for all races of Tamriel, so why do you want to tie it closer to Nords just because you like it that way?
Dunmer have closer connections to fire and volcanos and the same if not closer connections to Akavir from fighting in the same battles and simply the proximity to the continent. Argonians have closer connections to the earth element (considering how many masons and stone-menders they have). It's also easy to see how a lizard could look at a dragon and call it an Argonian and get inspired by that. Khajiit have connections to dragons now too and always had greater connections to the Akaviri through Rimmen.
Don't they have the same claim towards having the Dragonknight thematically moved closer to them? Moving the dragonknight thematically closer to the Thu'um moves at least two of these races closer to the Thu'um as well if we keep the Akaviri connection (which I still think we are, because I don't see any info to the contrary).
That's where your desire to tie Dragonknights and Nords thematically together backfires as it also muddies the waters for the Thu'um and makes it less Nord and less special. And this will happen regardless of whether it's actually the real Thu'um or not. None of the dragonknights are dragonborn, but now they are all LARPing as Nords wielding the Thu'um? I don't have much of a problem with that as long as it's clear that they aren't actually using the Thu'um, but I think it's a weird choice and as a Nord fan I'd expect you to be against that too. To me dragonknights were always just LARPing as dragons and that makes a dragonknight who, unlike his colleagues, actually has learned the Thu'um from the Greybeards all the more special. Like Grundwulf. Like Reman(?)
In my opinion it's better to keep dragonknights and The Storm Voice firmly separated because that makes the world richer instead of it all blurring together.Edited by Ratzkifal on February 12, 2026 1:29AMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is apropos of nothing but Daggerfall had a talent that you could select called "Draconic" and it allowed you to speak with dragons (yeah, Daggerfall is a weird and cool game...).1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭The corny pun "wing buffet" doesn't fit a brutal warrior of fire and earth, and it's weird to make a pun in Tamriel that references a style of meal from the modern real world.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP4 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The corny pun "wing buffet" doesn't fit a brutal warrior of fire and earth, and it's weird to make a pun in Tamriel that references a style of meal from the modern real world.
@xylena It is accurate to what the skill does though. "The buffet" [ˈbʌfeɪ,ˈbʊfeɪ] and "to buffet" [ˈbʌfɪt] are different words with different meaning and different pronounciations that just so happen to share the same spelling. Sure, it doubles as a pun, but I don't think it's that aggregious considering that "to buffet" is still accurate to what it does - knock people back.
I think the worst part about it is that many people only know "the buffet" and not the verb, which is what causes the confusion. So is this already too confusing? Or is this how a lot of people are going to learn a new word for their vocabulary? I'm not sure, but I learned a new vocabulary through the addition of Wing Buffet.
To buffet ; 3rd person present: buffets; past tense: buffeted; past participle: buffeted; gerund or present participle: buffeting- (especially of wind or waves) strike repeatedly and violently; batter.
"rough seas buffeted the coast" - knock (someone) off course.
"he was buffeted from side to side" - (of difficulties) afflict (someone) over a long period.
"they were buffeted by a major recession"
This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 - (especially of wind or waves) strike repeatedly and violently; batter.
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xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Ratzkifal yes I know, that's why I recognized it as a pun in the first place.
They didn't call it "projectile buffet" they made a deliberate pun on a modern invention.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP2 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Ratzkifal yes I know, that's why I recognized it as a pun in the first place.
They didn't call it "projectile buffet" they made a deliberate pun on a modern invention.
It's a disgusting joke if designers really did mean to make the pun. Of course, like most things, they stick to their guns even though literally everyone is riffing on the name.Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.1 -
MarTheChangerSoul ShrivenWell, you're buffeting them with your wings, not with projectiles, nor are you buffeting only projectiles, as the skill also knocks enemies back, so by all accounts it is an accurately descriptive name.
Protect the Brood certainly sounds odd at first since dragons don't reproduce, but they are still known to make allies, like Paarthurnax and Nahfahlaar. To them, mortal races could certainly be considered akin to a brood for them, given the disparity in size, age, and power between them. Further, in the context of Dragonknights, your allies wouldn't be your literal "brood" either, instead being friends you are protecting; from that usage of the phrase, it's sensible enough.
As for using Gabrielle Benele as a source for refuting the possibility of DK's powers stemming from draconic magic, her dismissal of it is wholly unreliable. Her only discussion of it is from when someone was making unwanted advances towards her, and she immediately rejects his claim without even seeing a demonstration of any DK powers. She does no research into it whatsoever, instead simply dismissing the claims of "an unlearned lout", because how could he possibly know a type of magic that she doesn't? With the lack of even the barest amount of actual research, her opinion of the matter has less worth than the words of the Akaviri Dragonknights themselves.
With the presence of other vocalization-based magics, like thaumavocalism and all the various magical incantations we see performed, I do not find it a stretch to believe that, even if DK powers aren't the thu'um itself (which I also don't believe they are directly), they could still be using the words of the dragon language in magical incantations that the Akaviri developed during their own conquest of the dragons back on Akavir, then brought over and shared as they spread the teachings of their style to others, and it came to be known by a Tamrielan term, The Storm Voice, only spoken rather than shouted. While ideally, I would rather it be called something related to the Akaviri term Kiai, I don't think the current name is that lore-breaking.
As for using the Thu'um supposedly being a Nord-only (or at least human-only, considering Reman and Tiber) power... Well, the Altmer Nurarion the Perfect, or Voiceless, was described as having a voice so powerful that he could no longer speak normally, an awful lot like Wulfharth himself. Even outside of ESO, back in Skyrim, Curalmil the Shouting Draugr has an awfully Altmeri name... Mankar Camoran also claims to have the ability to speak "another tongue" and then "speak fire" as well. With no source actually claiming that only Nords or humans can learn the Thu'um, there's little reason to claim that it is wholly restricted to them, when it could be the case that only they have common knowledge of it.2 -
Emeratis✭✭✭✭MarTheChanger wrote: »Protect the Brood certainly sounds odd at first since dragons don't reproduce, but they are still known to make allies, like Paarthurnax and Nahfahlaar. To them, mortal races could certainly be considered akin to a brood for them, given the disparity in size, age, and power between them. Further, in the context of Dragonknights, your allies wouldn't be your literal "brood" either, instead being friends you are protecting; from that usage of the phrase, it's sensible enough.
The problem with this is both the dragons you mentioned are also portrayed as atypical and not the norm and also the term brood is not the language used for dragons in the TES universe. It's common in other dragon related media but not here. The only time I can find that it was remotely relevant to dragons was in a quote from Moongrave Fane where Nisaazda shouts "Vengeance for her brood!" but that is barely related to dragons.
The word closest to brood in the draconic language is probably Zeymah, which translates to brother. That's why this passive's name is super weird and seems to not understand the in universe dragon lore in a way that feels jarring.
A lore accurate name for the passive using dov would be Dein Zeymah, but I guess that doesn't roll off the tongue as much.Edited by Emeratis on February 13, 2026 7:50AM1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That's what makes it a pun, which is fine, but referencing the modern world breaks immersion. It's like renaming Fatecarver to "High Beams" or the Sorc armor to "Shell Shock."MarTheChanger wrote: »Well, you're buffeting them with your wings, not with projectiles, nor are you buffeting only projectiles, as the skill also knocks enemies back, so by all accounts it is an accurately descriptive name.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP6 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭…MarTheChanger wrote: »Well, you're buffeting them with your wings, not with projectiles, nor are you buffeting only projectiles, as the skill also knocks enemies back, so by all accounts it is an accurately descriptive name.
Protect the Brood certainly sounds odd at first since dragons don't reproduce, but they are still known to make allies, like Paarthurnax and Nahfahlaar. To them, mortal races could certainly be considered akin to a brood for them, given the disparity in size, age, and power between them. Further, in the context of Dragonknights, your allies wouldn't be your literal "brood" either, instead being friends you are protecting; from that usage of the phrase, it's sensible enough.
As for using Gabrielle Benele as a source for refuting the possibility of DK's powers stemming from draconic magic, her dismissal of it is wholly unreliable. Her only discussion of it is from when someone was making unwanted advances towards her, and she immediately rejects his claim without even seeing a demonstration of any DK powers. She does no research into it whatsoever, instead simply dismissing the claims of "an unlearned lout", because how could he possibly know a type of magic that she doesn't? With the lack of even the barest amount of actual research, her opinion of the matter has less worth than the words of the Akaviri Dragonknights themselves.
With the presence of other vocalization-based magics, like thaumavocalism and all the various magical incantations we see performed, I do not find it a stretch to believe that, even if DK powers aren't the thu'um itself (which I also don't believe they are directly), they could still be using the words of the dragon language in magical incantations that the Akaviri developed during their own conquest of the dragons back on Akavir, then brought over and shared as they spread the teachings of their style to others, and it came to be known by a Tamrielan term, The Storm Voice, only spoken rather than shouted. While ideally, I would rather it be called something related to the Akaviri term Kiai, I don't think the current name is that lore-breaking.
As for using the Thu'um supposedly being a Nord-only (or at least human-only, considering Reman and Tiber) power... Well, the Altmer Nurarion the Perfect, or Voiceless, was described as having a voice so powerful that he could no longer speak normally, an awful lot like Wulfharth himself. Even outside of ESO, back in Skyrim, Curalmil the Shouting Draugr has an awfully Altmeri name... Mankar Camoran also claims to have the ability to speak "another tongue" and then "speak fire" as well. With no source actually claiming that only Nords or humans can learn the Thu'um, there's little reason to claim that it is wholly restricted to them, when it could be the case that only they have common knowledge of it.
I like this write up so don't take this response as a rebuttal or argument, just my understanding of things right or not.
Curalmil was from old days when Skyrim wasn't even icy yet, and was obviously not a typical Nord. That said he is a Nord. He is able to be a dragon priest enemy if your level is high enough.
Mankar Camoran is a very special case, he was a Bosmer and used either the Mehrunes Razor or Mysterium Xarxes, I forget which, to make himself both altmer, aldmer really, and dragonborn, if you believe his writings.
The razor theoretically can cut more than just to kill, he used it to cut away the parts of him that made him lesser in his blood, I.E. his bosmer blood and left only the Aldmer blood which all elves were, Old Ehlnofex then Aldmeris. And he also "cut" his soul in the shape of a dragon, thus artificially making himself dragonborn and being able to allegedly thu'um. This is all theoretical but makes sense because the Amulet of Kings did allow him to wear it and saw his blood as worthy.
All that said, there are probably special circumstances for a lot of things, being dragonborn is already one special circumstance. And even if it is only Nords, Imperials basically are southern Nords anyway. Its more likely man aligned peoples especially after the Marukhati Selective's dragon break and inserting Lorkhan into Akatosh where they cut out Auri-El,
Generally speaking though your average elf or cat man shouldn't be thu'uming. Even your average Nord is only potentially able, supposedly because Nords are literally breathed onto Snow Throat by Kyne which would literally or not literally mean Nords are composed of the Voice and Kyne herself, the same way elves are remnants of their Ehlnofex and Et'ada ancestors.
Metaphysical mumbo jumbo sorry, I love rambling about lore even if its all mostly theoretical.
I agree with what you say here regardless. Protect the brood isn't literal no but I get why people raise an eyebrow at it. Im indifferent to it.Edited by BardokRedSnow on February 13, 2026 6:57PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...1 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭At the very least Protect the Brood shows that skill lines aren't literal, and are indeed "based off vibes" for flavoring, not to be taken as gospel. There's no such thing as a grave lord either, and templars have "Aedric Spear".
Its always been something for flavor and vibes, not literal actual factual lore. Nothing aedric at all about templars, its just restoration magics. With a zealous touch like priests of StendarrEdited by BardokRedSnow on February 13, 2026 7:05PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
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I disagree. You said it yourself, in the context of dragonknights your allies also wouldn't be your brood. And there is no metaphorical usage of "brood" you can use here either. We could go with "flock", or perhaps "kin" since dragons at least to some degree seem to have brother relationships, however that works. But I think my suggestion Under my Wing is the most fitting because that would fit for any dragon that's protecting something, no matter their relation.MarTheChanger wrote: »[...]
Protect the Brood certainly sounds odd at first since dragons don't reproduce, but they are still known to make allies, like Paarthurnax and Nahfahlaar. To them, mortal races could certainly be considered akin to a brood for them, given the disparity in size, age, and power between them. Further, in the context of Dragonknights, your allies wouldn't be your literal "brood" either, instead being friends you are protecting; from that usage of the phrase, it's sensible enough.
There is also Drusus Ovicula who is also an Imperial scholar and doubts the truthfulness of dragonknight magic originating from dragons and he actually got to see demonstrations of the skills, but he seems to be a little confused about when dragons actually disappeared from Tamriel and thinks they are made-up creatures. We can lament not having more dragonknight lore all day, but out of the four books that make references to the class that's two of them casting doubt on the validity of their dragon origin stories. The third one is just a poem that doesn't rhyme. And the fourth is a historical account by a Tsaesci (or Imperial with Tsaesci heritage) claiming that the origins of dragonknight martial arts traditions do originate from dragons, but from the dragons of Akavir, predating Reman and more importantly fully disconnecting them from Nord traditions and the name The Storm Voice. The best thing currently going for the Storm Voice passive name is that at the very least most dragonknights think their powers comes from real dragons and the Thu'um (if they even know what that is). But then I look at Grundwulf again and notice that the real Thu'um is completely different, so I think they are just wrong.MarTheChanger wrote: »As for using Gabrielle Benele as a source for refuting the possibility of DK's powers stemming from draconic magic, her dismissal of it is wholly unreliable. Her only discussion of it is from when someone was making unwanted advances towards her, and she immediately rejects his claim without even seeing a demonstration of any DK powers. She does no research into it whatsoever, instead simply dismissing the claims of "an unlearned lout", because how could he possibly know a type of magic that she doesn't? With the lack of even the barest amount of actual research, her opinion of the matter has less worth than the words of the Akaviri Dragonknights themselves.
But that's doing the very thing nobody really wants - cheapening the Thu'um. Why is the dragon language involved at all if it's not the actual Thu'um? Why are you suggesting that the solution would be to add a second, downgraded version of the Thu'um to the lore so that dragonknights can use it? It's unnecessarily blurring the line, cheapens the Thu'um and is simply not as interesting as making the Dragonknights into real Tongues or keeping them completely separate, keeping their mystery. I think using the term Akaviri Kiai would be much preferable as a name precisely because it's not telling us exactly what dragonknights are using.MarTheChanger wrote: »With the presence of other vocalization-based magics, like thaumavocalism and all the various magical incantations we see performed, I do not find it a stretch to believe that, even if DK powers aren't the thu'um itself (which I also don't believe they are directly), they could still be using the words of the dragon language in magical incantations that the Akaviri developed during their own conquest of the dragons back on Akavir, then brought over and shared as they spread the teachings of their style to others, and it came to be known by a Tamrielan term, The Storm Voice, only spoken rather than shouted. While ideally, I would rather it be called something related to the Akaviri term Kiai, I don't think the current name is that lore-breaking.MarTheChanger wrote: »As for using the Thu'um supposedly being a Nord-only (or at least human-only, considering Reman and Tiber) power... Well, the Altmer Nurarion the Perfect, or Voiceless, was described as having a voice so powerful that he could no longer speak normally, an awful lot like Wulfharth himself. Even outside of ESO, back in Skyrim, Curalmil the Shouting Draugr has an awfully Altmeri name... Mankar Camoran also claims to have the ability to speak "another tongue" and then "speak fire" as well. With no source actually claiming that only Nords or humans can learn the Thu'um, there's little reason to claim that it is wholly restricted to them, when it could be the case that only they have common knowledge of it.
Personally I don't think the Thu'um is a Nord-only ability, but the Nords have pretty much monopolised the knowledge of it through Paarthurnax, making it de-facto Nord-only. Mankar Camoran is obviously a special case after obtaining the razor, so that neither proves or disproves anything. However I think it's pretty clear that Alkosh used a dragonshout to stop Pelinal Whitestrake and may have done so in the form of, or through, a khajiiti dragonpriest, leaving behind a timewound in Sunspire similar to that on the Throat of the World. That's just my interpretation of it though.
So if the Tsaesci had tongues, I wouldn't actually be too surprised, but I would then expect the dragonknight SFX to reflect that. Since that is obviously not going to happen, I much prefer the idea that Tsaesci have their own ways of taking down dragons, not needing the dragon language at all. The dragon horns also seem to hint at that at least.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
cyberjanet✭✭✭✭✭
Skills advisor names may need a relook too. Venomous Dragon???
Favourite NPC: Wine-For-All
Mostly PC-EU , with a lonely little guy on NA.3 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cyberjanet wrote: »
Skills advisor names may need a relook too. Venomous Dragon???
Oh, good catch! Yeah, now that the poison is gone that makes very little sense.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »At the very least Protect the Brood shows that skill lines aren't literal, and are indeed "based off vibes" for flavoring, not to be taken as gospel. There's no such thing as a grave lord either, and templars have "Aedric Spear".
Its always been something for flavor and vibes, not literal actual factual lore. Nothing aedric at all about templars, its just restoration magics. With a zealous touch like priests of Stendarr
I've had posts removed for writing things less offensive that "the developers are doing vibes." lol
Lol it's just vibes, nobody actually cares. This idea puts design in a tough spot.
Either it's really about vibes or the design team makes choices that are so weird that people speculate they must be vibing.Rest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.1 -
Alefroth✭✭
That's what makes it a pun, which is fine, but referencing the modern world breaks immersion. It's like renaming Fatecarver to "High Beams" or the Sorc armor to "Shell Shock."MarTheChanger wrote: »Well, you're buffeting them with your wings, not with projectiles, nor are you buffeting only projectiles, as the skill also knocks enemies back, so by all accounts it is an accurately descriptive name.
Those examples aren't similar at all. You're reaching for relevance. The pun only exists in your head and buffet isn't from the modern world.0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
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That's what makes it a pun, which is fine, but referencing the modern world breaks immersion. It's like renaming Fatecarver to "High Beams" or the Sorc armor to "Shell Shock."MarTheChanger wrote: »Well, you're buffeting them with your wings, not with projectiles, nor are you buffeting only projectiles, as the skill also knocks enemies back, so by all accounts it is an accurately descriptive name.
Those examples aren't similar at all. You're reaching for relevance. The pun only exists in your head and buffet isn't from the modern world.
It still sounds god awful. "Flappy Wings" was better.
Who cares though? This was another skill with its original function utterly desteoyed because reasons. There has been zero compensation for what was stolen. Let the name be a bad joke because that is what the skill is.
Being a DK used to feel cool. Now it feels inadequate.Edited by Personofsecrets on February 17, 2026 5:51PMRest in Peace:
The Dragonknight
2014-2025
This commemoration is for the class that has constantly been plundered and dismantled by designers for no obvious reason while other classes continue to have coherent skill lines and feel both powerful and cool.1 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »At the very least Protect the Brood shows that skill lines aren't literal, and are indeed "based off vibes" for flavoring, not to be taken as gospel. There's no such thing as a grave lord either, and templars have "Aedric Spear".
Its always been something for flavor and vibes, not literal actual factual lore. Nothing aedric at all about templars, its just restoration magics. With a zealous touch like priests of Stendarr
I've had posts removed for writing things less offensive that "the developers are doing vibes." lol
Lol it's just vibes, nobody actually cares. This idea puts design in a tough spot.
Either it's really about vibes or the design team makes choices that are so weird that people speculate they must be vibing.
I don't see why that's offensive, clearly they treat the more mmo aspects of the game that won't carry on into "official" lore in the series as soft lore for lack of a better term. There's not gonna be dragon knights in TES 6, nor would I want there to be.
As I said before the very concept of dragon knights sprouting wings and growing dragon scales, while on paper badass, is ridiculous when the dragon born themselves don't have this and even Talos is "seen as a dragon when looked upon" by some but not actually dragon-like, and dragon aspect being ethereal.
So if you accept that Dragon Knights are weird eso mmo stuff, along with the crazy mounts included to sell crown crates, its pretty obvious the lore about it is for flavor.
So the more tes references to me, the better. Thu'um flavoring makes the rest easier to swallow, for me anyway.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...1 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭If we take out thu'um references from DK you may as well change templar's Aedric Spear also. Its just not necessary, its clearly not literal. An odd and very small hill to die on.Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
MarTheChangerSoul ShrivenThe problem with this is both the dragons you mentioned are also portrayed as atypical and not the norm and also the term brood is not the language used for dragons in the TES universe. It's common in other dragon related media but not here. The only time I can find that it was remotely relevant to dragons was in a quote from Moongrave Fane where Nisaazda shouts "Vengeance for her brood!" but that is barely related to dragons.
I do agree with all this, and that a different name, like your suggestion or something like "Winged Protector" would be better. I mainly just wanted to try to conceive and present a potential understanding of their name for it for if they end up going through with it.I disagree. You said it yourself, in the context of dragonknights your allies also wouldn't be your brood. And there is no metaphorical usage of "brood" you can use here either. We could go with "flock", or perhaps "kin" since dragons at least to some degree seem to have brother relationships, however that works. But I think my suggestion Under my Wing is the most fitting because that would fit for any dragon that's protecting something, no matter their relation.
The main thing I have to say about this section is simply that, when we are in a situation such as the one here where there is sadly little evidence about the subject and both sides amount to claims versus doubts, they should both be given similar consideration and chance of being true, at least in fictional settings. That said, I do mostly agree with your last part here, however...There is also Drusus Ovicula who is also an Imperial scholar and doubts the truthfulness of dragonknight magic originating from dragons and he actually got to see demonstrations of the skills, but he seems to be a little confused about when dragons actually disappeared from Tamriel and thinks they are made-up creatures. We can lament not having more dragonknight lore all day, but out of the four books that make references to the class that's two of them casting doubt on the validity of their dragon origin stories. The third one is just a poem that doesn't rhyme. And the fourth is a historical account by a Tsaesci (or Imperial with Tsaesci heritage) claiming that the origins of dragonknight martial arts traditions do originate from dragons, but from the dragons of Akavir, predating Reman and more importantly fully disconnecting them from Nord traditions and the name The Storm Voice. The best thing currently going for the Storm Voice passive name is that at the very least most dragonknights think their powers comes from real dragons and the Thu'um (if they even know what that is). But then I look at Grundwulf again and notice that the real Thu'um is completely different, so I think they are just wrong.
...I do not think that the possibilities I mentioned would cheapen it at all. I know that this portion is quite subjective, but consider the potential of it! A whole new form of magic, developed by the Tsaesci in a search to find a way to use the dragons' power against them. Similar to how other non-draconic words can produce new powers and effects when used as part of an incantation for a spell, so too could mortals learn how to use their language in a different way without Shouting, as they never had a Paarthurnax to teach them. This is all speculation, theory, fanfiction, etc; I'm under no illusions to the contrary. These are just potential reasons why I think that keeping an actually-draconic connection to the Dragonknights could be far more interesting than making them unrelated, if handled well - and that last part is key, which is why I also support them changing the passive name and description, just in a different way. Something like "Draconic Incantations" and "The words of that ancient tongue..." or "The ancient language lives on in the mouth of every Dragonknight" to keep that connection there, without it being the Thu'um.But that's doing the very thing nobody really wants - cheapening the Thu'um. Why is the dragon language involved at all if it's not the actual Thu'um? Why are you suggesting that the solution would be to add a second, downgraded version of the Thu'um to the lore so that dragonknights can use it? It's unnecessarily blurring the line, cheapens the Thu'um and is simply not as interesting as making the Dragonknights into real Tongues or keeping them completely separate, keeping their mystery. I think using the term Akaviri Kiai would be much preferable as a name precisely because it's not telling us exactly what dragonknights are using.
No real disagreements from me here! I enjoy seeing methods outside of Dragonrend as well, like the horns, and so also agree that Tsaesci should be doing something different from just using the Thu'um themselves; not because they are intrinsically incapable of it, but because they never learned how and made their own method.Personally I don't think the Thu'um is a Nord-only ability, but the Nords have pretty much monopolised the knowledge of it through Paarthurnax, making it de-facto Nord-only. Mankar Camoran is obviously a special case after obtaining the razor, so that neither proves or disproves anything. However I think it's pretty clear that Alkosh used a dragonshout to stop Pelinal Whitestrake and may have done so in the form of, or through, a khajiiti dragonpriest, leaving behind a timewound in Sunspire similar to that on the Throat of the World. That's just my interpretation of it though.
So if the Tsaesci had tongues, I wouldn't actually be too surprised, but I would then expect the dragonknight SFX to reflect that. Since that is obviously not going to happen, I much prefer the idea that Tsaesci have their own ways of taking down dragons, not needing the dragon language at all. The dragon horns also seem to hint at that at least.0 -
MarTheChangerSoul Shriven
Just want to start off by saying, very much appreciated, and understood! I just love to talk about this setting, sharing what I know, and learning new things myself, especially when getting into stuff with ambiguity and no definitive answer (as long as everyone involved recognizes that that might be the case!) I hope I do not come across as condescending or anything in any way at any point, just eager to share, and learn!BardokRedSnow wrote: »I like this write up so don't take this response as a rebuttal or argument, just my understanding of things right or not.
I feel bad starting with a disagreement, but for this, I don't think it's that certain, at least with that evidence. Red Eagle, for instance, also shows up as a draugr who can appear as a dragon priest at high enough levels, and he is a Reachman, rather than a Nord, and from 1E1030 at that, far later than when the Dragon Cult was last around, pointing towards that particular situation being a quirk of the leveled enemy lists, rather than an intentional lore statement (especially when other confirmed-Nord cases like Yngol, Ysgramor's own son, can be a dragon priest!) Taking into consideration the Call to Arms tabletop game, Red Eagle and Curalmil both get Draugr Lord-style named minis in 2024, which seems to be an affirmation of what they're supposed to be (and asserts that the non-Nordic Red Eagle is still a draugr). Beyond that, dragon worship isn't exclusive to Nords, either, as seen with the New Moon Cult and their effective dragon priest Ra'khajin. It is a much bigger and deeper part of Nordic lore and culture, to be certain, across both Atmora and Tamriel, but others can and have joined them in it, as well.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Curalmil was from old days when Skyrim wasn't even icy yet, and was obviously not a typical Nord. That said he is a Nord. He is able to be a dragon priest enemy if your level is high enough.
I'd like to bring up his name again, as well; I know that in real-life archaeology, "looks like" or "sounds like" is poor evidence on it's own, but in constructed fiction, it can be a different story. Among Nordic names, "Curalmil" is wholly out of place, being vastly different from the others even across the millennia of evolution we have names from. On the other hand, it fits right in alongside Altmer names, like with Curandil, Vairalmil, and a couple dozen other Cur- and -mil names. We do know that elves had been present all across Skyrim by the time Ysgramor showed up, as well; he did call it "Mereth" at first because of them, after all! While I won't say that he was for sure an Altmer - heck, he could've been a Nord who took a name that sounded like theirs, perhaps raised and taught alchemy by them! - these things lead me to believe in a strong possibility that he was one, or influenced by them in some way.
(Sorry to get so long-winded on such a relatively minor point, but digging through sources across the history of the series and effectively performing in-universe archaeology is fun!)
Ooh, a fascinating read on things! I hadn't considered the possibility of the razor being capable of anything of the sort, thinking of it as mainly just an extremely lethal weapon, like from being able to puncture any armor with little effort or kill with the smallest cut. A grander power like that would make sense too, though; many have coveted the blade, often for greater reasons or aspirations than even the deadliest blade would help with (especially when they still remain vulnerable to a well-placed arrow or spell), but the ability to "cut" through metaphysical things and change them would. As for Mankar, my understanding was more that reading the MX revealed secrets to him that let him achieve a degree of CHIM, especially since he discusses it and the metaphysical Tower, and used that with Dagon's power to reshape himself, wear the AoK, and create Gaiar Alata.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Mankar Camoran is a very special case, he was a Bosmer and used either the Mehrunes Razor or Mysterium Xarxes, I forget which, to make himself both altmer, aldmer really, and dragonborn, if you believe his writings.
The razor theoretically can cut more than just to kill, he used it to cut away the parts of him that made him lesser in his blood, I.E. his bosmer blood and left only the Aldmer blood which all elves were, Old Ehlnofex then Aldmeris. And he also "cut" his soul in the shape of a dragon, thus artificially making himself dragonborn and being able to allegedly thu'um. This is all theoretical but makes sense because the Amulet of Kings did allow him to wear it and saw his blood as worthy.
I largely agree on this, yeah. It should be very rare for non-Nords to Shout, with exceptions being very few and far between, like with Red Eagle's draugr and the Ebony Warrior in Skyrim, and very likely Nurarion in ESO (not by name, but described nearly identically to Wulfharth). I like that it can be a thing that anyone could theoretically learn, should they desire it, but with very few non-Nords knowing much about it, and fewer still having the willingness or means to go learn in High Hrothgar or make a pact with a Daedric Prince (like in Nurarion's possible case and a reasonable explanation for Red Eagle given the Reachmen-Daedra connections (if he even could in life and it's not just a quirk of him being a draugr in death and the resulting in-game mechanics of it)), there end up only being a handful of cases throughout all Tamrielic history of non-Nord Tongues (this sentence was such a mess but I hope it's understandable). I hope that they keep it that way, and personally would like a tweak to the passive's name and description to not be the Thu'um itself, but still connected to dragons; I went into a bit more detail in my previous post and will just point to that rather than repeat it here, though, to avoid repeating myself too much and save space. The wild world of the metaphysical stuff in the series is one of my favorite parts, too, but sadly I think getting into that here and now would get even more wildly off-topic than has already happened!BardokRedSnow wrote: »All that said, there are probably special circumstances for a lot of things, being dragonborn is already one special circumstance. And even if it is only Nords, Imperials basically are southern Nords anyway. Its more likely man aligned peoples especially after the Marukhati Selective's dragon break and inserting Lorkhan into Akatosh where they cut out Auri-El,
Generally speaking though your average elf or cat man shouldn't be thu'uming. Even your average Nord is only potentially able, supposedly because Nords are literally breathed onto Snow Throat by Kyne which would literally or not literally mean Nords are composed of the Voice and Kyne herself, the same way elves are remnants of their Ehlnofex and Et'ada ancestors.
Metaphysical mumbo jumbo sorry, I love rambling about lore even if its all mostly theoretical.
I agree with what you say here regardless. Protect the brood isn't literal no but I get why people raise an eyebrow at it. Im indifferent to it.1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
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But that's the point. One side has actual evidence here. The Thu'um in ESO has been portrayed just like in Skyrim. There is a precedent here and Dragonknights don't match it. Pretending like both sides of this argument are equally valid is dumb because we could justify literally anything to be "just as valid" if there just isn't enough evidence disproving it. That's reversing the burden of proof. You can't prove a negative. That's like someone putting up a no parking zone because unicorns are crossing the road there and because nobody can definitively prove that unicorns don't exist, we have to treat it as valid and therefore the no parking zone is justified. That's not how this works. Show me that they are using Thu'um, which btw not even Bardok thinks they actually are considering how opposed he is to the thought of Khajiit using the Thu'um. The only evidence for it is that they renamed a passive and until that change goes live, that evidence is not yet valid. Everything else is hearsay and goes against established precedent in addition to what little scholarly sources we do have. So no, these don't have "similar chance of being true".MarTheChanger wrote: »[...]
The main thing I have to say about this section is simply that, when we are in a situation such as the one here where there is sadly little evidence about the subject and both sides amount to claims versus doubts, they should both be given similar consideration and chance of being true, at least in fictional settings. That said, I do mostly agree with your last part here, however...
I don't doubt that there is some connections to dragons here. The point of contention is the nature of that connection. The Dwemer are not speaking in the dragon language in their tonal architecture. Neither do the spinners nor do the Sword-Singers. So why should we be satisfied with having the Tsaesci speaking a watered down version of something we are already familiar with? To me, that is boring. I'd already be happy if the Tsaesci are speaking their own language in a way that dragons do theirs, resulting in a pseudo Thu'um. Basically reaching the same solution through different means. But then at least give me that and not "The Storm Voice". Simply slapping the label on it doesn't do The Storm Voice justice if we aren't going to put in the effort to make it sound and feel like the Thu'um (or pseudo-Thu'um). And from what I understand about Bardok's point, he only wants this connection because it ties DKs closer to Nords, and as a self-proclaimed Nord fan that just sounds like personal bias. While I can understand having personal bias, that's something lore writers should obviously avoid when writing lore.MarTheChanger wrote: »
...I do not think that the possibilities I mentioned would cheapen it at all. I know that this portion is quite subjective, but consider the potential of it! A whole new form of magic, developed by the Tsaesci in a search to find a way to use the dragons' power against them. Similar to how other non-draconic words can produce new powers and effects when used as part of an incantation for a spell, so too could mortals learn how to use their language in a different way without Shouting, as they never had a Paarthurnax to teach them. This is all speculation, theory, fanfiction, etc; I'm under no illusions to the contrary. These are just potential reasons why I think that keeping an actually-draconic connection to the Dragonknights could be far more interesting than making them unrelated, if handled well - and that last part is key, which is why I also support them changing the passive name and description, just in a different way. Something like "Draconic Incantations" and "The words of that ancient tongue..." or "The ancient language lives on in the mouth of every Dragonknight" to keep that connection there, without it being the Thu'um.
Edit: fixed a typo.Edited by Ratzkifal on February 19, 2026 8:49PMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0