My immersion completely flew out the window: “tank,” lol.

FabresFour · February 15

Okay, but seriously. In the new event, they canonized the term “tank” in ESO. An NPC actually says it to describe his role. I found it so, SO strange. It’s such a modern term… LOL. Usually you’d expect something like “protector” or “guardian.” Deliberately using “tank” just feels so wrong to me.

(I genuinely loved the event’s quests, really, but that moment sent me flying straight out of Tamriel and back into my chair with those terrible, cramped airplane seats. Total jumpscare, lol.)

Malyore · February 15

Agreed.
A tank of what? A tank of magicka? A tank of orsimer blood? It doesn't seem like a kind thing to call someone they adventure with-- referring to them as some hollow liquid chamber.

Unless the dwemer had war tanks that behaved similarly to WW1 tanks.

AScarlato · February 15

Just another thing that made me believe this was supposed to break the 4th wall. I think it was mostly a commentary on players rather than these being believable characters in the game world.

I complain a lot about the writing the past couple of years so I hate to sound like a broken record - but they really need a setting/lore manager on staff to review copy and turn things away if they are not really fitting for the time and setting.

I gave this event a positive review in the review thread since I did overall enjoy the event - but the writing issue is ongoing and I think an overarching problem for the game in general at this point.

Syldras · February 15

Malyore wrote: »

A tank of what? A tank of magicka? A tank of orsimer blood? It doesn't seem like a kind thing to call someone they adventure with-- referring to them as some hollow liquid chamber.

A "front line tank". I guess they refer to a big portable toilet for the battlefields of Cyrodiil. Not sure why you'd call a friend that, but hey, I'm not a writer. *shrugs*

AScarlato · February 15

Syldras wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

A tank of what? A tank of magicka? A tank of orsimer blood? It doesn't seem like a kind thing to call someone they adventure with-- referring to them as some hollow liquid chamber.

A "front line tank". I guess they refer to a big portable toilet for the battlefields of Cyrodiil. Not sure why you'd call a friend that, but hey, I'm not a writer. *shrugs*

Don't mind us. Just more rabble who can't appreciate the remarkable and profane...err, profound writing.

LunaFlora · February 15

i like that the characters from that Heart's Week quest are like a group of players.

there are plenty of other words that are not centuries old and used in Elder Scrolls so i am fine with Tank being used in-universe.

AcadianPaladin · February 15

I chuckled more over the name Bigrok than the term tank.

Emeratis · February 15

Malyore wrote: »

Unless the dwemer had war tanks that behaved similarly to WW1 tanks.

battlespire filing cabinets moment

Ok past being silly, yes it was one of my gripes with the story too. I feel there are many more fantastical words that are synonymous with tank that could have fit better. This is part of why in the other thread I rated the event as okay.

Syldras · February 15

In the German translation they used the word "Beschützer", by the way, which means protector/guardian. A good and fitting decision. I really appreciate that the studio that does that translation cares for such things (I remember there was a similar, though less extreme, situation some years ago, where the translation also felt more appropriate than the original).

Calastir · February 15

With all the bugs, zonechat and guildchat, lagging, skills not firing and all I never get immersed in the game anyway. Only some movies and books can do that for me.

spartaxoxo · February 15

That whole quest completely broke the 4th wall. They didn't feel like characters in the world, they felt like fellow players in the game. Jeshi buying mats to go into a crafting frenzy and putting the stuff inside a treasure chest? Party member being accused of stealing because they wanted to deconstruct the bow? The leader complaining about being both the team's guild lead and healer at the same time?? Tanks?

The vibes were off

Soarora · February 15

I enjoyed it. Reminds me of a dungeon group and I love all things dungeons. If anything, I think these NPCs acting like players makes the players more immersive. I like that there’s people in-universe acting like us.

Malyore · February 15

Soarora wrote: »

I enjoyed it. Reminds me of a dungeon group and I love all things dungeons. If anything, I think these NPCs acting like players makes the players more immersive. I like that there’s people in-universe acting like us.

There's a difference between sharing the roles players have, versus using out-of-setting terminology. I wouldn't want to see anyone in-game saying "How will we ever get through this dungeon without a DPS?! Our tank's damage over time is only a single target skill, and is too low to kill these dungeon mobs!"

We save that for Elder Scrolls: c0da.

I also like NPCs sharing a role that the players have. The Undaunted are a fun concept. Characters like Tharn and Fyr make the world of ESO feel more equal to us players. Those iterations are fun to me. This quest was abysmally not.

BloodstainedFay · February 15

This is such a silly thing to get upset over IMO. It's a goofy little quest about a group of friends, clearly resembling the typical bickering a D&D party might have
No one gets upset over the term shrapnel but tank is too far? Tank is an ubiquitous term by now, and is a very different thing to "DPS". One can always pretend it's a term the Undaunted came up with :P

But this is subjective really, opinions aside I can see why it might bother some people. Whilst others (like me) find it enjoyable.

Syldras · February 15

BloodstainedFay wrote: »

No one gets upset over the term shrapnel but tank is too far?

I think the criticism wasn't about descriptions in the menu, but about story dialogue. Is there a dialogue where characters are talking about shrapnels? I'm genuinely curious, as I don't remember coming across one.

Though I just checked, the word "shrapnels" isn't used in the translation I play anyway, so I might have missed it if it ever came up; the German translation used is the more neutral "Bruchstücke" = fragments.

BloodstainedFay wrote: »

Tank is an ubiquitous term by now, and is a very different thing to "DPS". One can always pretend it's a term the Undaunted came up with :P

Where would they have this word from? From a water tank? And if they make something up, why does it need to be the term used in gaming, not something Tamriel-specific?

Vaqual · February 15

I also wasn't thrilled about this. I generally dislike fan service or - for lack of a better description - overbearing celebration of "nerd culture". A main draw of RPGs is the idea of playing in a fantasy world. I am here for the attempted illusion, not for the underlying framework. Player roles are part of the skeleton of an RPG, but you are not supposed to see the skeleton. Hopefully this makes sense. In a similar thread a while ago I had clearer words for this, but that thread got heavily moderated and I don't feel like making that effort again.

I guess this is for people who like things like Critical Role, Stranger Things and Funko pops and such, where this type of self-indulgent gallivanting of nerd stuff seems to serve as the main attraction or even self-purpose. I find this type of "quirky" dialogue annoying, not fun, not worthwhile and actively immersion breaking.

It is a shame because the voice acting in this event is extremely good and the other quests were quite good. Just a few lines really that spoil the dialogue. There is just no need to compromise a solid product with this type of cheap, gimmicky writing. You can convey the same ideas without resorting to this type of vocabulary.

I know, it was just a seasonal event quest. But this is my honest feedback for it and I don't need more of that.

BloodstainedFay · February 15

Syldras wrote: »

BloodstainedFay wrote: »

No one gets upset over the term shrapnel but tank is too far?

I think the criticism wasn't about descriptions in the menu, but about story dialogue. Is there a dialogue where characters are talking about shrapnels? I'm genuinely curious, as I don't remember coming across one.

Though I just checked, the word "shrapnels" isn't used in the translation I play anyway, so I might have missed it if it ever came up; the German translation used is the more neutral "Bruchstücke" = fragments.

BloodstainedFay wrote: »

Tank is an ubiquitous term by now, and is a very different thing to "DPS". One can always pretend it's a term the Undaunted came up with :P

Where would they have this word from? From a water tank? And if they make something up, why does it need to be the term used in gaming, not something Tamriel-specific?

Shrapnel doesn't appear in dialogue that i can remember, it does appear in a treasure though https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Treasures_M#Meat_Extruder
However, other terms like my personal favourite, "snipe" do appear in lore books- https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wood_Elves_of_Valenwood

As to your second question, honestly this isn't a hill worth dying on for me, and if they change it to something more "in universe" I wouldn't be upset either. But ESO likes blending gameplay into lore, sometimes for the better (Hollowjack & the Witches festival, imo) and sometimes in more "controversial" scenarios like this, with terms like "Delve" and "Trial" also being used in world.

Syldras · February 16

Thanks! I'm always curious about how they translate things. For example, I just checked that lorebook, and in the German translation, they just used "marksman", which is a term that already existed in the Middle Ages.

We don't have a Vestige either, by the way, since you can't really call a person that here - it would be a rather weird term, and a very long one, too (4 syllables - German words get long rather fast). Instead, we got the "Soulless One".

It is interesting how much translations can change an impression. I can remember when I had played TES4 Oblivion in English for the first time (I played it in German before), the first thing I thought was how much more modern and colloquial the original sounds.

If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably a matter of different cultural habits/traditions/expectation worldwide. There's a certain speech and narration style that people here expect from stories taking place in the past, especially in the Middle Ages (and that includes medieval-ish fantasy stories). If that isn't met, many people will find it "weird" and unappealing, so the translation studios consider that.

Which also causes a bit of a problem, of course, if suddenly the tone or also the themes of stories change to something a bit more modern, and the translation team can't really balance it out.

Let alone that "tank", to get back to the thing that started this thread, would be an anglicism, so putting that into a medieval-ish fantasy story where the rest is translated to German would sound even weirder. Which makes me wonder now how other localisations of ESO handled that quest.

Prophet_of_Malacath · February 16

BloodstainedFay wrote: »

This is such a silly thing to get upset over IMO. It's a goofy little quest about a group of friends, clearly resembling the typical bickering a D&D party might have
No one gets upset over the term shrapnel but tank is too far? Tank is an ubiquitous term by now, and is a very different thing to "DPS". One can always pretend it's a term the Undaunted came up with :P

But this is subjective really, opinions aside I can see why it might bother some people. Whilst others (like me) find it enjoyable.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

For some etymology, early 17th century English "tank" (of water) from Portuguese tanque (liquid container, reservoir, pond), related to Latin stagnum (Dam, hold back; think stagnate) and Spanish estancarse (stagnate). And also, the Portuguese modified by Marathi ṭāṅkī (underground cistern) & the like.

So "tank" isn't actually the armored vehicles - but was an English codeword to conceal their design (and let folks think they were designing "water carriers" or "water tanks", for supplies, instead of their "land-ship" idea).

Close analogy?

Calling someone barrel-chested to mean "big". You could all the same say keg-chested, vat-chested or tank-chested without much trouble. The comparison between (huge container for liquids which is heavy) and (big muscle bro) is a leap that doesn't require armored vehicles. Hell, call someone a "tank" because of their tankard, it's not a huge deal.

I also think not all content is made for everyone. Same way I might like more horror (but I won't begrudge someone elses knights & romance); some folks enjoy the occasional meta-story (why are you folks even celebrating Hearts Day? Valentines? There was no St. Valentine in TES, the very holidays in-game are often just new fantasy references to IRL, as opposed to authentic in-lore holidays).

It's just too silly to worry about.

cyclonus11 · February 16

Yeah that threw me also. First "laid" and now "tank"?

spartaxoxo · February 16

Prophet_of_Malacath wrote: »

I also think not all content is made for everyone. Same way I might like more horror (but I won't begrudge someone elses knights & romance); some folks enjoy the occasional meta-story (why are you folks even celebrating Hearts Day? Valentines? There was no St. Valentine in TES, the very holidays in-game are often just new fantasy references to IRL, as opposed to authentic in-lore holidays).

It's just too silly to worry about.

Heart's Day has been a canonical, in-universe celebration since before Morrowind. It around the real world St. Valentine's Day for obvious reasons but it has its own separate and long standing lore. Long before there was an MMO to provide real world synergy timing with. Before the MMO was even a thought.

Jhava · February 16

Personally I really liked how they used slang terms to describe their roles within the group. I liked how the group talked about and did things in a way that made me feel like we operated the same way in the world. I hope to see more writing in this style going forward tbh.

For me it was light, refreshing, and very fun.

Syldras · February 16

Of course we can think about some etymological explanation on why a member of a group of adventurers would be refered to as a "tank". But I think what matters is not whether an explanation can be thought up, but the impression that dialogue line leaves when the average player hears it, in that situation.

I'd say it's not expected as a term of this fictional world, as we never had it come up anywhere else before - if it had been mentioned in some lorebooks before that big, muscular fighters are sometimes colloquially called "tanks" because they're as bulky as a barrel, it might have felt differently.

So when they hear it in that dialogue, it causes an immersion break for some people, because it makes them think of 21st century online gaming, not of the medieval world of Tamriel. And that's unfortunate, as immersion is an important aspect for part of the playerbase, and could have easily been avoided by using a term that feels more "natural" for the setting.

Personofsecrets · February 16

Maybe it was ai generated content.

Erickson9610 · February 16

What I find interesting about this quest is that it canonizes a player guild with only 4 members (two damage dealers [the mage and the assassin], one tank [the warrior], and one healer) in it. In other words, players like you or me are expected to make player guilds of just a few friends to travel together with — after all, these characters in-world are doing that exact thing. That's also a big part of the marketing for ESO as of late.

Does that mean that the player guilds of 100+ active members are canon to TES lore? Probably — although like all things, they come to an end and may be forgotten. It would be really cool to see a future TES game reference some of the notable player guilds in ESO, since this quest makes it obvious that player guilds as well as their roles were canon at some point in time.

As far as the roles go, what else would you call the tank? A "guardian" would make sense, but maybe the phrasing of the "tank" role in the UI should be adjusted to be lore friendly as well. Why shouldn't there be parity between what's happening in the world and what the UI tells us?

After all, what we're doing in these Dungeons and Trials is canon to TES lore — there literally was some group of 4 or 12 people, some of which healed others, some of which were on the front lines, and some of which dealt damage, in each of these stories.

KingArthasMenethil · February 16

Emeratis wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

Unless the dwemer had war tanks that behaved similarly to WW1 tanks.

battlespire filing cabinets moment

Ok past being silly, yes it was one of my gripes with the story too. I feel there are many more fantastical words that are synonymous with tank that could have fit better. This is part of why in the other thread I rated the event as okay.

Redguard Imperial Ironclad moment.

AScarlato · February 16

The fact that there are people here who love the writing direction, so much so that they believe NPCs speaking nearly OOC helps with their immersion because most other players are also OOC is baffling to me, but here we are.

This specific thread may be viewed by some as a small issue, but it's just another in the long list of concerns some of us have had for a long time now. It seems to us that things are getting worse, not better.

If it just so happens that they don't care about narrative anymore, and instead want the game to be light-hearted "turn off your brain and laugh" at all the quirky npcs, now ooc dialogue, and flashy cosmetics and mounts - then it is what it is.

As someone who cares mostly about setting/rp/narrative what will be left for me is Housing I suppose.

I don't mind some light hearted fun but entire 4th wall quests is pushing it for a game that is supposed to focus heavily on story and is advertised as such - which they should given how many people say they wouldn't even play this if it wasn't an elder scrolls game.

SeaGtGruff · February 16

Do you really think the people of Tamriel speak English? Or German, or Spanish, or whatever language you play the game in? We might as well pretend that they're actually speaking some Tamrielic language that's completely unknown to us and that whatever we hear and read in-game is being magically translated into something our brains can understand and relate to.

Syldras · February 16

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Do you really think the people of Tamriel speak English? Or German, or Spanish, or whatever language you play the game in? We might as well pretend that they're actually speaking some Tamrielic language that's completely unknown to us and that whatever we hear and read in-game is being magically translated into something our brains can understand and relate to.

Heard some peeps be yapping like this now fr. Should game chatter be sliding in like this - like, we can just rizz it up and act like it’s a dub we can lowkey mega vibe with?

Or does it actually matter how the dialogue is presented to us on screen, since the speech style and wording contributes to the characterisation of the fictional world and therefore to immersion?

Last'One · February 16

I really don’t want to repeat myself again and again and again… but… what "immersion"? In ESO, immersion is completely gone. There’s no immersion left at all, just don’t even try to argue otherwise. We can’t start with a criminal act and end up talking about subclassing. Everything goes 100% against the immersion that any Elder Scrolls game once had. It’s completely broken.

Soarora · February 16

AScarlato wrote: »

The fact that there are people here who love the writing direction, so much so that they believe NPCs speaking nearly OOC helps with their immersion because most other players are also OOC is baffling to me, but here we are.

This specific thread may be viewed by some as a small issue, but it's just another in the long list of concerns some of us have had for a long time now. It seems to us that things are getting worse, not better.

If it just so happens that they don't care about narrative anymore, and instead want the game to be light-hearted "turn off your brain and laugh" at all the quirky npcs, now ooc dialogue, and flashy cosmetics and mounts - then it is what it is.

As someone who cares mostly about setting/rp/narrative what will be left for me is Housing I suppose.

I don't mind some light hearted fun but entire 4th wall quests is pushing it for a game that is supposed to focus heavily on story and is advertised as such - which they should given how many people say they wouldn't even play this if it wasn't an elder scrolls game.

I don't love the writing direction in general, I just enjoyed this one quest. I had noticed that with these quests, I went into them the same way I used to-- just enjoying questing... instead of going into the quests ready to judge them for how well they're written and affect the lore... like I was doing for overland quests... for the past few years. It's a cute little silly event quest. If this was a main quest of a zone, then I would have a problem. I want more intense, mature, conflicting main quests with real, irreversible consequences. But event quests? They can be silly.