Sorcerer rework, new class, new systems, house building, and various improvements for ESO

NxJoeyD · February 14

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback here. Currently posting in general is fine for Sorc feedback as we have not started work on this class rework yet. However, happy to pass on feedback as a reference point for when this work starts.

As a Sorc main for years I agree with the OP a lot here. When looking at the Sorcerer as a class and seeking to align their identity with their skills I whole heartedly agree with the OP.

Storm Calling & Dark Magic, as categories, really make sense here. As for Deaderic Summoning I think this would be better served, not as a pet summoner but as a manipulator of Daedric energies in the form of curses, bursts, or protective wards.

When it comes to classes and how they fit into the game post-subclassing we see ALOT of pets now, it’s become quasi redundant. IMO Necromancers should take point on summoning or “pet” based abilities. This would align more with their lore as a class and would complement the scope of their contributions in combat. Wardens having a minor summoning aspect, rooted in their lore in nature also makes sense. Sorcerers don’t need pets per se, they need to lean more on dark energies than actual pets.

I think this would give Sorcerers a more unique identity rather than one that feels like an offshoot of another class. This would also reduce the appearance of pets in this state of a post-subclassing game, there’s really just too many now.

Now, as it pertains to Sorc skills; I imagine a good number of skills remain after the re-work; at least I hope they do because lore-wise, they’re quite good. .. but … operationally, many are AWFUL, especially compared to available skills in other class lines. The number one killer of Sorc skills are clunky / slow animations! When you compare a Sorc skill to a comparable skill from another class, look at the animation, look at the time it takes between triggering the ability and for it to actually execute in combat; it’s an eternity! I absolutely believe in telegraphs, but proper ones.

Abilites like Mages Fury (and morphs) take nearly a full second after triggering to actually apply to the target! That’s nearly and entire global cooldown! When you factor in that the player now only has two seconds in order to proc the second bonus of this ability, and factor in a following cooldown, you can quickly see why this ability went by the wayside. Compared to other executes it’s just too slow. I know there were complaints about this ability but the truth is it was in-line with other executes which were (and still are) spammable; so Mages Fury got a nerf making it uncompetitive, meanwhile the rest flourish. The animation here is a deal breaker. This skill doesn’t need a telegraph due to its small window to execute; it doesn’t apply an immediate burst, like say, a Merciless Resolve does.

The same goes for Streak, there’s a wind up time between triggering and it actually executing the ability and it’s all animation based. Since the Sorc gets no I-frames during this time they’re extremely vulnerable and it’s very limiting. Sorcs see themselves being crowd controlled, damaged, or interrupted in the time it takes this ability to start to function, meaning they arrive at the other side of the Streak worse off than they started. Given that the ability has a progressive penalty for repeated use (which I agree with) then it doesn’t need this long wind up time.

Crystal Fragments is another one. Crystal Wepaon greatly complements Stamina based builds but the 0.8 second cast time on Crystal Shard & Frag is woeful. Unless the damage is going to scale higher than that there’s way too many burst abilities out there which are immediate and have quicker animations than this.

It’s one thing to have abilities that animate which help to give immersion to the Sorcerer skills but they can’t be so clunky that the class is at a come from behind when compared to peer class abilities. This is huge.

This is a prime opportunity to refine the Sorc class and really present them as masters of dark energy. About half of the skills already align with this identity, it’s just a question of their values and the mechanical execution. This is also a chance to get rid of the pet redundancy and allow those classes where summoning actual entities more aligns with their lore and gives them more presence.

Then there’s the subclassing factor. These changes were promoted because of the chaotic state that opening up skill mixing created in PvP (and in some regard PvE). Are we going to see Skill line passives that provide a benefit when all 3 core class skill lines are active or are we going to see subclasses skill lines provide a reduced value to the subclassed player?

It’s one thing to re-work classes to improve their identity but if we’re taking about making non-subclassed builds competitive then it’s not just about identity it’s about balance. What is a base classes build going to bring to the table that elevates them in the same way subclassing does?

My thoughts here are a passive element that is triggered by having all 3 class skill lines. I feel as though this goes more toward identity because it would be an element that a subclassed build couldn’t have, only a full Sorcerer would have; thereby encouraging full Sorc builds and also helping to make them competitive.

Malyore · February 14

IviRo wrote: »

Prophet_of_Malacath wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

I dislike daedric summoning because pets take up two slots. ESO has too little bar space and needing to slot pets for both bars makes me feel like I have less variety.

On this thought, i wonder how many folks would just wsnt pets. We already have Companions. I imagine some Wardens would want a couple wolves or guar (maybe swap the Bear too). Necros wanting perma pet. DKs off to the Deadlands to beat fiery spirits to submission. NBs conjuring shadow doubles of themselves.

It'd not be terrible if we had an extra slot or two, just for pets, giving other folks more buddy options. Plus ZOS could sell new creatures/skins easily. I never cared for a Bear or Clannfear, but an Ogrim or Mind Horror? Chefs kiss.

Developers will continue to add new classes in the future, and I think it's worth making some adjustments to the classes where they don't fit. Another alternative would be to move the line to the new warlock class, which seems more appropriate, or to make separate grimoires.

However, I am not sure how a dragon knight associated with Akavir should be sent to the Deadlands.

I'm not on board for this advocation of a warlock class as an amends to the sorcerer diversity.

I am a non-pet sorcerer, I have always been. I would love to have more non-pet options– with ideas of how this can be done shared in some prior replies of mine.

But it is unrealistic and inappropriate to ask the sorcs who do focus on daedric pets to have their playstyle removed from their character and injected into another class.
The only way I can see this being an acceptable route is if ZOS finally commits to doing class change tokens.

spartaxoxo · February 14

Daedric Summoning should remain the pet class. Dark Magic and Lightning Mages are available for those that don't want pets but pet builds have been a longstanding DPS build and a core fantasy for many players.

Sorcerors are the OG pet class and Daedric Summoning is an OG summoning skill and key tool of mages since before the Elder Scrolls was ever an MMO.

I am going to be very disappointed if that will not continue to be the case. I don't think that some people's desires to not use pets should completely dismantle those of us who want to be a summoner in the same vein as other Elder Scrolls games. There's not only multiple sorc skill lines that don't use pets but there are also more skill lines that don't use pets than do. There are plenty of options if you don't like pets, now more than ever.

Malyore · February 14

Maybe someone should make a poll to better see the multiple solutions people would want implemented within the class, rather than having the tug of war of "I want pets" vs "Your pets take up my class" and hoping the rope will break on their side.

I know a lot of folks have already made suggestions, but they get somewhat lost when it returns to that ancient tug of war.

Prophet_of_Malacath · February 14

IviRo wrote: »

There is no need to tie the distinctive feature of the class to the set, which, frankly speaking, does not look very good even from a visual point of view.

You misunderstand.

The point is that the Set provides an EXAMPLE of "mobility and strategy" based playstyles.

For example, against a DK (the attrition warrior) or the Templar (dive melee), a Sorceror can set up environmental hazards & bolt around - to deny rivals their terms & even penalize them for chasing us. The DK might win an attrition fight, but not if I exhaust them around the battlefield.

It's not about aesthetics, its mechanics.

IviRo · February 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Daedric Summoning should remain the pet class. Dark Magic and Lightning Mages are available for those that don't want pets but pet builds have been a longstanding DPS build and a core fantasy for many players.

Sorcerors are the OG pet class and Daedric Summoning is an OG summoning skill and key tool of mages since before the Elder Scrolls was ever an MMO.

I am going to be very disappointed if that will not continue to be the case. I don't think that some people's desires to not use pets should completely dismantle those of us who want to be a summoner in the same vein as other Elder Scrolls games. There's not only multiple sorc skill lines that don't use pets but there are also more skill lines that don't use pets than do. There are plenty of options if you don't like pets, now more than ever.

On the contrary, I don't like this concept.
I like the idea of grimoires and Mastery classes, because it allows you to increase the number of different creatures you can summon.
Yes, you have a Daedric summon that is limited to two pets, and one is associated with fire, but it has been transformed into a scamp, as the developers were probably too lazy to rework the skill when the scamp was pure lightning without a physical form.
I really like the Benekins in this game, and they fully correspond to the lightning aspect, but at the same time, I want to summon a fire Atronach, not have a visually altered skill. I think some skills need to be made publicly available and this aspect expanded.

spartaxoxo · February 14

I don't care if they add different conjuration skills to different classes or even scribing skills.

What I care about is losing my characters identity for the past 10 years. She's been a pet sorc the entire time and I don't want to lose that. Daedric Summoning is an important part of class identity for many sorcerers, even if not all of them. And that shouldn't change.

Class Refreshes shouldn't be about deleting skill lines.

NxJoeyD · February 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Daedric Summoning should remain the pet class. Dark Magic and Lightning Mages are available for those that don't want pets but pet builds have been a longstanding DPS build and a core fantasy for many players.

Sorcerors are the OG pet class and Daedric Summoning is an OG summoning skill and key tool of mages since before the Elder Scrolls was ever an MMO.

I am going to be very disappointed if that will not continue to be the case. I don't think that some people's desires to not use pets should completely dismantle those of us who want to be a summoner in the same vein as other Elder Scrolls games. There's not only multiple sorc skill lines that don't use pets but there are also more skill lines that don't use pets than do. There are plenty of options if you don't like pets, now more than ever.

Part of the problem is that means asking the Sorc class to be “both” pet & non pet and that’s a hard ask that no other class has to contend with. It will ensure that Sorc continues to fall behind in terms of competitiveness if it has to try and be two mediocre things versus one good thing.

I get it, Sorcs used to be the OG summoning class but ESO has changed and unless we’re going to have a conversation around removing other classes or completely changing those class identities then we have to look at Sorc in the game state of today, not how it was.

There’s just far too many “pets” anymore. I’m sorry if people don’t like to hear that but it’s true. Too many abilities result in the summoning of some sort of entity that’s clogging the combat up. And since Subclassing is a thing that’s gotten worse. The overpopulation of pets in combat is only compounded with the game engine hit registration being what it is.

We don’t need combat that involves nearly as many pets as we have players but that’s what we’re seeing. We have to ask ourselves how can Sorc better bring competitiveness to the table and, IMO, that means leaving pets in the past for Sorcs.

That doesn’t mean that Sorcs can’t have the effects or mechanics that are associated with pets, we just don’t need the physical pet. Curses, elemental effects, disruptive abilities all exist within Daedric lore than can be used to better kit out that skill line rather than pets.

Like many thing in ESO, pets (not necessarily Sorc pets) have now become too overused and since we know that subclassing isn’t going away that means that everyone now has access to conjuring a pet or an entity if they choose to do so. A Sorc can subclass Neceo skill lines if they want to summon and make that their play style.

For me, and I think a lot of us, the idea of what Sorc used to be has become dated. Seeing how skills, sets, and passives have all evolved the concept of the way pets behave for Sorcs amounted to little more than making Sorcs cheerleaders in the current game state. Pets body block and heal but in terms out output Sorcs have fallen behind, mechanically, and there’s really no way to enhance pets in a way that elevates the class without making them OP.

There’s a reason why many players default to other class pets rather than Sorc. .. Nobody wants to subclass Daedric Summoning or Dark Magic, and it’s no wonder why. The only skill Daedric Summoning brings to the table in current combat is Ward, and that’s not necessary with the insane degree of self healing and self HoT players can slot.

I think part of this is taking a good look at the Sorc class as asking ourselves what we want the class to do; what role is Sorc going to play in combat. Now, that question doesn’t have to have a singular answer but the Class has to have a singular identity or it’s ruined. Do we really want Sorcs to be a class where our identity is to just squat behind pets (which are weaker than other classe’s) and are good for little else? That seems lame to me. Necromancers have a far better utilization of summoning than Sorcs. With Subclassing Necro summons are competitive and fit into lore; Sorc summons aren’t, they’re just healing body blocks, in the best of cases.

Look at what’s being broadly subclassed now: Templar, Night Blade, Warden, Necro … then Sorc, and even then only Storm Calling. .. Nobody wants our abilities because they’re not comeptetive so why would we want to hold onto them? Sentimental value won’t bring good gameplay experiences in combat.

Rather than be upset at the idea of losing pets what could we possibly have instead of which would see Sorc becoming more dynamic in combat?

IviRo · February 14

NxJoeyD wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Daedric Summoning should remain the pet class. Dark Magic and Lightning Mages are available for those that don't want pets but pet builds have been a longstanding DPS build and a core fantasy for many players.

Sorcerors are the OG pet class and Daedric Summoning is an OG summoning skill and key tool of mages since before the Elder Scrolls was ever an MMO.

I am going to be very disappointed if that will not continue to be the case. I don't think that some people's desires to not use pets should completely dismantle those of us who want to be a summoner in the same vein as other Elder Scrolls games. There's not only multiple sorc skill lines that don't use pets but there are also more skill lines that don't use pets than do. There are plenty of options if you don't like pets, now more than ever.

Part of the problem is that means asking the Sorc class to be “both” pet & non pet and that’s a hard ask that no other class has to contend with. It will ensure that Sorc continues to fall behind in terms of competitiveness if it has to try and be two mediocre things versus one good thing.

I get it, Sorcs used to be the OG summoning class but ESO has changed and unless we’re going to have a conversation around removing other classes or completely changing those class identities then we have to look at Sorc in the game state of today, not how it was.

There’s just far too many “pets” anymore. I’m sorry if people don’t like to hear that but it’s true. Too many abilities result in the summoning of some sort of entity that’s clogging the combat up. And since Subclassing is a thing that’s gotten worse. The overpopulation of pets in combat is only compounded with the game engine hit registration being what it is.

We don’t need combat that involves nearly as many pets as we have players but that’s what we’re seeing. We have to ask ourselves how can Sorc better bring competitiveness to the table and, IMO, that means leaving pets in the past for Sorcs.

That doesn’t mean that Sorcs can’t have the effects or mechanics that are associated with pets, we just don’t need the physical pet. Curses, elemental effects, disruptive abilities all exist within Daedric lore than can be used to better kit out that skill line rather than pets.

Like many thing in ESO, pets (not necessarily Sorc pets) have now become too overused and since we know that subclassing isn’t going away that means that everyone now has access to conjuring a pet or an entity if they choose to do so. A Sorc can subclass Neceo skill lines if they want to summon and make that their play style.

For me, and I think a lot of us, the idea of what Sorc used to be has become dated. Seeing how skills, sets, and passives have all evolved the concept of the way pets behave for Sorcs amounted to little more than making Sorcs cheerleaders in the current game state. Pets body block and heal but in terms out output Sorcs have fallen behind, mechanically, and there’s really no way to enhance pets in a way that elevates the class without making them OP.

There’s a reason why many players default to other class pets rather than Sorc. .. Nobody wants to subclass Daedric Summoning or Dark Magic, and it’s no wonder why. The only skill Daedric Summoning brings to the table in current combat is Ward, and that’s not necessary with the insane degree of self healing and self HoT players can slot.

I think part of this is taking a good look at the Sorc class as asking ourselves what we want the class to do; what role is Sorc going to play in combat. Now, that question doesn’t have to have a singular answer but the Class has to have a singular identity or it’s ruined. Do we really want Sorcs to be a class where our identity is to just squat behind pets (which are weaker than other classe’s) and are good for little else? That seems lame to me. Necromancers have a far better utilization of summoning than Sorcs. With Subclassing Necro summons are competitive and fit into lore; Sorc summons aren’t, they’re just healing body blocks, in the best of cases.

Look at what’s being broadly subclassed now: Templar, Night Blade, Warden, Necro … then Sorc, and even then only Storm Calling. .. Nobody wants our abilities because they’re not comeptetive so why would we want to hold onto them? Sentimental value won’t bring good gameplay experiences in combat.

Rather than be upset at the idea of losing pets what could we possibly have instead of which would see Sorc becoming more dynamic in combat?

There has always been this problem with sorcerers. A few years ago, a certain number of people began promoting the idea that pets should be viable. Incidentally, there are very few people on the forum who actually decide for a huge player base what class should be like and what abilities to focus on. This led to the strengthening of pets about four years ago, even though the huge player base was unhappy with this. I remember how some people left the game after this change.
I am trying to find a compromise and fully support you, as we need to find a common solution that will satisfy everyone, not just a certain caste of players simply because they are on the forum.

NxJoeyD · February 14

IviRo wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Daedric Summoning should remain the pet class. Dark Magic and Lightning Mages are available for those that don't want pets but pet builds have been a longstanding DPS build and a core fantasy for many players.

Sorcerors are the OG pet class and Daedric Summoning is an OG summoning skill and key tool of mages since before the Elder Scrolls was ever an MMO.

I am going to be very disappointed if that will not continue to be the case. I don't think that some people's desires to not use pets should completely dismantle those of us who want to be a summoner in the same vein as other Elder Scrolls games. There's not only multiple sorc skill lines that don't use pets but there are also more skill lines that don't use pets than do. There are plenty of options if you don't like pets, now more than ever.

Part of the problem is that means asking the Sorc class to be “both” pet & non pet and that’s a hard ask that no other class has to contend with. It will ensure that Sorc continues to fall behind in terms of competitiveness if it has to try and be two mediocre things versus one good thing.

I get it, Sorcs used to be the OG summoning class but ESO has changed and unless we’re going to have a conversation around removing other classes or completely changing those class identities then we have to look at Sorc in the game state of today, not how it was.

There’s just far too many “pets” anymore. I’m sorry if people don’t like to hear that but it’s true. Too many abilities result in the summoning of some sort of entity that’s clogging the combat up. And since Subclassing is a thing that’s gotten worse. The overpopulation of pets in combat is only compounded with the game engine hit registration being what it is.

We don’t need combat that involves nearly as many pets as we have players but that’s what we’re seeing. We have to ask ourselves how can Sorc better bring competitiveness to the table and, IMO, that means leaving pets in the past for Sorcs.

That doesn’t mean that Sorcs can’t have the effects or mechanics that are associated with pets, we just don’t need the physical pet. Curses, elemental effects, disruptive abilities all exist within Daedric lore than can be used to better kit out that skill line rather than pets.

Like many thing in ESO, pets (not necessarily Sorc pets) have now become too overused and since we know that subclassing isn’t going away that means that everyone now has access to conjuring a pet or an entity if they choose to do so. A Sorc can subclass Neceo skill lines if they want to summon and make that their play style.

For me, and I think a lot of us, the idea of what Sorc used to be has become dated. Seeing how skills, sets, and passives have all evolved the concept of the way pets behave for Sorcs amounted to little more than making Sorcs cheerleaders in the current game state. Pets body block and heal but in terms out output Sorcs have fallen behind, mechanically, and there’s really no way to enhance pets in a way that elevates the class without making them OP.

There’s a reason why many players default to other class pets rather than Sorc. .. Nobody wants to subclass Daedric Summoning or Dark Magic, and it’s no wonder why. The only skill Daedric Summoning brings to the table in current combat is Ward, and that’s not necessary with the insane degree of self healing and self HoT players can slot.

I think part of this is taking a good look at the Sorc class as asking ourselves what we want the class to do; what role is Sorc going to play in combat. Now, that question doesn’t have to have a singular answer but the Class has to have a singular identity or it’s ruined. Do we really want Sorcs to be a class where our identity is to just squat behind pets (which are weaker than other classe’s) and are good for little else? That seems lame to me. Necromancers have a far better utilization of summoning than Sorcs. With Subclassing Necro summons are competitive and fit into lore; Sorc summons aren’t, they’re just healing body blocks, in the best of cases.

Look at what’s being broadly subclassed now: Templar, Night Blade, Warden, Necro … then Sorc, and even then only Storm Calling. .. Nobody wants our abilities because they’re not comeptetive so why would we want to hold onto them? Sentimental value won’t bring good gameplay experiences in combat.

Rather than be upset at the idea of losing pets what could we possibly have instead of which would see Sorc becoming more dynamic in combat?

There has always been this problem with sorcerers. A few years ago, a certain number of people began promoting the idea that pets should be viable. Incidentally, there are very few people on the forum who actually decide for a huge player base what class should be like and what abilities to focus on. This led to the strengthening of pets about four years ago, even though the huge player base was unhappy with this. I remember how some people left the game after this change.
I am trying to find a compromise and fully support you, as we need to find a common solution that will satisfy everyone, not just a certain caste of players simply because they are on the forum.

I mean, to be honest, players (experienced ones anyway) are aware of the forums and there’s also the ZoS Discord channel which I know is used so if players have insight into this topic they know where the proper place to submit them are.

This opens the floor to broader questions involving gameplay, like, “what are we doing about the excessive amount of pets in combat now?”

Everyone knows Sorc pets don’t stack up anymore and, mechanically, what does that mean? Where’s the compromise? If we leave pets do we just let the class continue to be mediocre in the current subclassing state? There’s never been a viable suggestion as to how to mechanically improve pets to make them competitive AND keep within lore.

When ZoS added Necro and Warden, in that moment, they effectively killed Sorc pets in terms of competitiveness and that’s only gotten worse as time has gone on.

So here we all are, the Sorc mains, facing the sad truth that the class play style was relegated to D-tier effectiveness in the name of DLC.

The question is how do we move on? Do we try to hold onto pets that play 2nd fiddle to Necros for sentimental sake or do we try to better define the class identity with skills that make us effective?

IviRo · February 14

NxJoeyD wrote: »

IviRo wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Daedric Summoning should remain the pet class. Dark Magic and Lightning Mages are available for those that don't want pets but pet builds have been a longstanding DPS build and a core fantasy for many players.

Sorcerors are the OG pet class and Daedric Summoning is an OG summoning skill and key tool of mages since before the Elder Scrolls was ever an MMO.

I am going to be very disappointed if that will not continue to be the case. I don't think that some people's desires to not use pets should completely dismantle those of us who want to be a summoner in the same vein as other Elder Scrolls games. There's not only multiple sorc skill lines that don't use pets but there are also more skill lines that don't use pets than do. There are plenty of options if you don't like pets, now more than ever.

Part of the problem is that means asking the Sorc class to be “both” pet & non pet and that’s a hard ask that no other class has to contend with. It will ensure that Sorc continues to fall behind in terms of competitiveness if it has to try and be two mediocre things versus one good thing.

I get it, Sorcs used to be the OG summoning class but ESO has changed and unless we’re going to have a conversation around removing other classes or completely changing those class identities then we have to look at Sorc in the game state of today, not how it was.

There’s just far too many “pets” anymore. I’m sorry if people don’t like to hear that but it’s true. Too many abilities result in the summoning of some sort of entity that’s clogging the combat up. And since Subclassing is a thing that’s gotten worse. The overpopulation of pets in combat is only compounded with the game engine hit registration being what it is.

We don’t need combat that involves nearly as many pets as we have players but that’s what we’re seeing. We have to ask ourselves how can Sorc better bring competitiveness to the table and, IMO, that means leaving pets in the past for Sorcs.

That doesn’t mean that Sorcs can’t have the effects or mechanics that are associated with pets, we just don’t need the physical pet. Curses, elemental effects, disruptive abilities all exist within Daedric lore than can be used to better kit out that skill line rather than pets.

Like many thing in ESO, pets (not necessarily Sorc pets) have now become too overused and since we know that subclassing isn’t going away that means that everyone now has access to conjuring a pet or an entity if they choose to do so. A Sorc can subclass Neceo skill lines if they want to summon and make that their play style.

For me, and I think a lot of us, the idea of what Sorc used to be has become dated. Seeing how skills, sets, and passives have all evolved the concept of the way pets behave for Sorcs amounted to little more than making Sorcs cheerleaders in the current game state. Pets body block and heal but in terms out output Sorcs have fallen behind, mechanically, and there’s really no way to enhance pets in a way that elevates the class without making them OP.

There’s a reason why many players default to other class pets rather than Sorc. .. Nobody wants to subclass Daedric Summoning or Dark Magic, and it’s no wonder why. The only skill Daedric Summoning brings to the table in current combat is Ward, and that’s not necessary with the insane degree of self healing and self HoT players can slot.

I think part of this is taking a good look at the Sorc class as asking ourselves what we want the class to do; what role is Sorc going to play in combat. Now, that question doesn’t have to have a singular answer but the Class has to have a singular identity or it’s ruined. Do we really want Sorcs to be a class where our identity is to just squat behind pets (which are weaker than other classe’s) and are good for little else? That seems lame to me. Necromancers have a far better utilization of summoning than Sorcs. With Subclassing Necro summons are competitive and fit into lore; Sorc summons aren’t, they’re just healing body blocks, in the best of cases.

Look at what’s being broadly subclassed now: Templar, Night Blade, Warden, Necro … then Sorc, and even then only Storm Calling. .. Nobody wants our abilities because they’re not comeptetive so why would we want to hold onto them? Sentimental value won’t bring good gameplay experiences in combat.

Rather than be upset at the idea of losing pets what could we possibly have instead of which would see Sorc becoming more dynamic in combat?

There has always been this problem with sorcerers. A few years ago, a certain number of people began promoting the idea that pets should be viable. Incidentally, there are very few people on the forum who actually decide for a huge player base what class should be like and what abilities to focus on. This led to the strengthening of pets about four years ago, even though the huge player base was unhappy with this. I remember how some people left the game after this change.
I am trying to find a compromise and fully support you, as we need to find a common solution that will satisfy everyone, not just a certain caste of players simply because they are on the forum.

I mean, to be honest, players (experienced ones anyway) are aware of the forums and there’s also the ZoS Discord channel which I know is used so if players have insight into this topic they know where the proper place to submit them are.

This opens the floor to broader questions involving gameplay, like, “what are we doing about the excessive amount of pets in combat now?”

Everyone knows Sorc pets don’t stack up anymore and, mechanically, what does that mean? Where’s the compromise? If we leave pets do we just let the class continue to be mediocre in the current subclassing state? There’s never been a viable suggestion as to how to mechanically improve pets to make them competitive AND keep within lore.

When ZoS added Necro and Warden, in that moment, they effectively killed Sorc pets in terms of competitiveness and that’s only gotten worse as time has gone on.

So here we all are, the Sorc mains, facing the sad truth that the class play style was relegated to D-tier effectiveness in the name of DLC.

The question is how do we move on? Do we try to hold onto pets that play 2nd fiddle to Necros for sentimental sake or do we try to better define the class identity with skills that make us effective?

Yes, these are very accurate questions. Personally, I would sacrifice two skills with pets in favour of efficiency and competitiveness, provided that I played with them.

NxJoeyD · February 14

IviRo wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

IviRo wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Daedric Summoning should remain the pet class. Dark Magic and Lightning Mages are available for those that don't want pets but pet builds have been a longstanding DPS build and a core fantasy for many players.

Sorcerors are the OG pet class and Daedric Summoning is an OG summoning skill and key tool of mages since before the Elder Scrolls was ever an MMO.

I am going to be very disappointed if that will not continue to be the case. I don't think that some people's desires to not use pets should completely dismantle those of us who want to be a summoner in the same vein as other Elder Scrolls games. There's not only multiple sorc skill lines that don't use pets but there are also more skill lines that don't use pets than do. There are plenty of options if you don't like pets, now more than ever.

Part of the problem is that means asking the Sorc class to be “both” pet & non pet and that’s a hard ask that no other class has to contend with. It will ensure that Sorc continues to fall behind in terms of competitiveness if it has to try and be two mediocre things versus one good thing.

I get it, Sorcs used to be the OG summoning class but ESO has changed and unless we’re going to have a conversation around removing other classes or completely changing those class identities then we have to look at Sorc in the game state of today, not how it was.

There’s just far too many “pets” anymore. I’m sorry if people don’t like to hear that but it’s true. Too many abilities result in the summoning of some sort of entity that’s clogging the combat up. And since Subclassing is a thing that’s gotten worse. The overpopulation of pets in combat is only compounded with the game engine hit registration being what it is.

We don’t need combat that involves nearly as many pets as we have players but that’s what we’re seeing. We have to ask ourselves how can Sorc better bring competitiveness to the table and, IMO, that means leaving pets in the past for Sorcs.

That doesn’t mean that Sorcs can’t have the effects or mechanics that are associated with pets, we just don’t need the physical pet. Curses, elemental effects, disruptive abilities all exist within Daedric lore than can be used to better kit out that skill line rather than pets.

Like many thing in ESO, pets (not necessarily Sorc pets) have now become too overused and since we know that subclassing isn’t going away that means that everyone now has access to conjuring a pet or an entity if they choose to do so. A Sorc can subclass Neceo skill lines if they want to summon and make that their play style.

For me, and I think a lot of us, the idea of what Sorc used to be has become dated. Seeing how skills, sets, and passives have all evolved the concept of the way pets behave for Sorcs amounted to little more than making Sorcs cheerleaders in the current game state. Pets body block and heal but in terms out output Sorcs have fallen behind, mechanically, and there’s really no way to enhance pets in a way that elevates the class without making them OP.

There’s a reason why many players default to other class pets rather than Sorc. .. Nobody wants to subclass Daedric Summoning or Dark Magic, and it’s no wonder why. The only skill Daedric Summoning brings to the table in current combat is Ward, and that’s not necessary with the insane degree of self healing and self HoT players can slot.

I think part of this is taking a good look at the Sorc class as asking ourselves what we want the class to do; what role is Sorc going to play in combat. Now, that question doesn’t have to have a singular answer but the Class has to have a singular identity or it’s ruined. Do we really want Sorcs to be a class where our identity is to just squat behind pets (which are weaker than other classe’s) and are good for little else? That seems lame to me. Necromancers have a far better utilization of summoning than Sorcs. With Subclassing Necro summons are competitive and fit into lore; Sorc summons aren’t, they’re just healing body blocks, in the best of cases.

Look at what’s being broadly subclassed now: Templar, Night Blade, Warden, Necro … then Sorc, and even then only Storm Calling. .. Nobody wants our abilities because they’re not comeptetive so why would we want to hold onto them? Sentimental value won’t bring good gameplay experiences in combat.

Rather than be upset at the idea of losing pets what could we possibly have instead of which would see Sorc becoming more dynamic in combat?

There has always been this problem with sorcerers. A few years ago, a certain number of people began promoting the idea that pets should be viable. Incidentally, there are very few people on the forum who actually decide for a huge player base what class should be like and what abilities to focus on. This led to the strengthening of pets about four years ago, even though the huge player base was unhappy with this. I remember how some people left the game after this change.
I am trying to find a compromise and fully support you, as we need to find a common solution that will satisfy everyone, not just a certain caste of players simply because they are on the forum.

I mean, to be honest, players (experienced ones anyway) are aware of the forums and there’s also the ZoS Discord channel which I know is used so if players have insight into this topic they know where the proper place to submit them are.

This opens the floor to broader questions involving gameplay, like, “what are we doing about the excessive amount of pets in combat now?”

Everyone knows Sorc pets don’t stack up anymore and, mechanically, what does that mean? Where’s the compromise? If we leave pets do we just let the class continue to be mediocre in the current subclassing state? There’s never been a viable suggestion as to how to mechanically improve pets to make them competitive AND keep within lore.

When ZoS added Necro and Warden, in that moment, they effectively killed Sorc pets in terms of competitiveness and that’s only gotten worse as time has gone on.

So here we all are, the Sorc mains, facing the sad truth that the class play style was relegated to D-tier effectiveness in the name of DLC.

The question is how do we move on? Do we try to hold onto pets that play 2nd fiddle to Necros for sentimental sake or do we try to better define the class identity with skills that make us effective?

Yes, these are very accurate questions. Personally, I would sacrifice two skills with pets in favour of efficiency and competitiveness, provided that I played with them.

I agree, I’d get rid of the two pet abilities also.

I’m a non pet Sorc but I have worked with pets and tried to give them a fair shake and the truth is they’re lackluster now.

We have 3 pets, the Familiar is a joke. It doesn’t have any real damage scaling so its only real contribution is a body block. So what is that, in terms of play style? A pet that might absorb some ranged attacks? While the player just sits behind? If we look at how gameplay combat functions in the current state that strategy would see the Sorc contributing little, lagging behind the team to try and pop off shots from behind the Familair. The mechanics of the Fmailiars stun is even poor; requiring a player to stand there and allow themselves to be CC’d.

Then we have the Twilight. This is structured for healing roles and 9 times out of 10 no healer is using a Sorc as their main class. So this leaves the Twilight as yet another potential body block and self heal. Since Subclassing there are better self heals available than the Twilight so despite the fact that it’s a solid heal value it’s still not competitive. It doesn’t have any real output and Sorcs can heal without it.

Lastly we have the Atronach Ult. This is probably the most useful out of the 3 but even then. The damage scaling is far less than even World Ults like Dawnbreaker and its radius is easily avoidable. Ults such as DK’s “Leap” even have better post-burst DoT application whereas with the Ateonach, again, the player has to “stand in the stupid” for it to be effective. Its usefulness ends shortly after its initial activation and given that it’s a higher cost Ult it’s obviously why this isn’t common.

So what does all this mean? What are we saying is supposed to be the Sorc play style if we were to compromise and keep pets? .. just sit behind them and range attack while they do little besides block some ranged attacks? .. is that going to be the Sorc identity? That’s pretty woeful to me. Pets don’t bring anything to the table besides body blocks and one heal; whereas Necro pets can scale to noteworthy damage, have legitimate range and mobility, and aren’t plagued by clumsy control schemes.

Plus, we also have Stam based ability morphs in the Sorc lines. Those Stam based morphs don’t align with a “pet” play style of camping behind body blocks. So what? Do we get rid of the Stam skills that people do use in favor of lackluster pets? Why would we do that?

Pets are even more of a liability when we consider that attackers can use them as gap closers with their abilities; targeting the pet to get to you.

When we talk about “play style” for Sorc, nobody has made a good play style case for Sorc pets that fits in the modern state of combat; especially with subclassing.

I can sit here and demonstrate how and why Sorc pets don’t stack up. But what I can’t do is suggest how to make them competitive and keep them lore relevant; in any meaningful play style. And for that reason I think that’s why we need to pivot Sorcs away from pets.

ZhuJiuyin · 1:41AM

NxJoeyD wrote: »

I agree, I’d get rid of the two pet abilities also.

I’m a non pet Sorc but I have worked with pets and tried to give them a fair shake and the truth is they’re lackluster now.

We have 3 pets, the Familiar is a joke. It doesn’t have any real damage scaling so its only real contribution is a body block. So what is that, in terms of play style? A pet that might absorb some ranged attacks? While the player just sits behind? If we look at how gameplay combat functions in the current state that strategy would see the Sorc contributing little, lagging behind the team to try and pop off shots from behind the Familair. The mechanics of the Fmailiars stun is even poor; requiring a player to stand there and allow themselves to be CC’d.

Then we have the Twilight. This is structured for healing roles and 9 times out of 10 no healer is using a Sorc as their main class. So this leaves the Twilight as yet another potential body block and self heal. Since Subclassing there are better self heals available than the Twilight so despite the fact that it’s a solid heal value it’s still not competitive. It doesn’t have any real output and Sorcs can heal without it.

Lastly we have the Atronach Ult. This is probably the most useful out of the 3 but even then. The damage scaling is far less than even World Ults like Dawnbreaker and its radius is easily avoidable. Ults such as DK’s “Leap” even have better post-burst DoT application whereas with the Ateonach, again, the player has to “stand in the stupid” for it to be effective. Its usefulness ends shortly after its initial activation and given that it’s a higher cost Ult it’s obviously why this isn’t common.

So what does all this mean? What are we saying is supposed to be the Sorc play style if we were to compromise and keep pets? .. just sit behind them and range attack while they do little besides block some ranged attacks? .. is that going to be the Sorc identity? That’s pretty woeful to me. Pets don’t bring anything to the table besides body blocks and one heal; whereas Necro pets can scale to noteworthy damage, have legitimate range and mobility, and aren’t plagued by clumsy control schemes.

Plus, we also have Stam based ability morphs in the Sorc lines. Those Stam based morphs don’t align with a “pet” play style of camping behind body blocks. So what? Do we get rid of the Stam skills that people do use in favor of lackluster pets? Why would we do that?

Pets are even more of a liability when we consider that attackers can use them as gap closers with their abilities; targeting the pet to get to you.

When we talk about “play style” for Sorc, nobody has made a good play style case for Sorc pets that fits in the modern state of combat; especially with subclassing.

I can sit here and demonstrate how and why Sorc pets don’t stack up. But what I can’t do is suggest how to make them competitive and keep them lore relevant; in any meaningful play style. And for that reason I think that’s why we need to pivot Sorcs away from pets.

Agree too. In endgame or other competitive situations, pets are completely rejected by skilled players. Neither DPS, Tank, nor Healer use permanent pets, and Atronach is only used because Sorc's other ultimate abilities are harder to use, and the raid needs the buffs provided by Atronach, not its damage.

It's harsh, but various sources have proven that the current pet system in ZOS is a failure and needs a complete overhaul or removal.
The current pet system has several obvious drawbacks:

1. Lack of interactivity and cooperative gameplay: Pets are mostly limited to active and passive attacks, lacking other more interesting roles such as providing shields or consistent buffs/debuffs.

2. Lack of powerful AoE damage: Having already wasted two skill slots, pets not only fail to provide useful buffs but also cannot deliver powerful AoE damage, making them largely useless in the endgame.

3. Blocking vision: This is absolutely terrible, completely disrupting cooperation between Pet-Sorc and other players, especially Tanks. Before subclasses were introduced, I was repeatedly asked to remove pets to avoid obstructing other players' vision. In mechanics like RGhm, which require players to constantly observe their surroundings, pets only become obstacles.

4. Pets are easily killed by mechanics, and resummoning them requires a significant waste of time and resources: While ZOS grants pets some damage immunity in PvE,but they can still be killed by some mechanics like Trials and IA. Furthermore, mechanics like the final boss in Stone Garden, which require players to transform, can force pets to disappear, severely impacting the gameplay experience.

5. Pets cannot proc some sets: Having already wasted skill slots, pets not only lack powerful AoE damage but also reduce the player's chance/frequency of proc sets, significantly diminishing the value of using pets.

NxJoeyD · 2:10AM

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

I agree, I’d get rid of the two pet abilities also.

I’m a non pet Sorc but I have worked with pets and tried to give them a fair shake and the truth is they’re lackluster now.

We have 3 pets, the Familiar is a joke. It doesn’t have any real damage scaling so its only real contribution is a body block. So what is that, in terms of play style? A pet that might absorb some ranged attacks? While the player just sits behind? If we look at how gameplay combat functions in the current state that strategy would see the Sorc contributing little, lagging behind the team to try and pop off shots from behind the Familair. The mechanics of the Fmailiars stun is even poor; requiring a player to stand there and allow themselves to be CC’d.

Then we have the Twilight. This is structured for healing roles and 9 times out of 10 no healer is using a Sorc as their main class. So this leaves the Twilight as yet another potential body block and self heal. Since Subclassing there are better self heals available than the Twilight so despite the fact that it’s a solid heal value it’s still not competitive. It doesn’t have any real output and Sorcs can heal without it.

Lastly we have the Atronach Ult. This is probably the most useful out of the 3 but even then. The damage scaling is far less than even World Ults like Dawnbreaker and its radius is easily avoidable. Ults such as DK’s “Leap” even have better post-burst DoT application whereas with the Ateonach, again, the player has to “stand in the stupid” for it to be effective. Its usefulness ends shortly after its initial activation and given that it’s a higher cost Ult it’s obviously why this isn’t common.

So what does all this mean? What are we saying is supposed to be the Sorc play style if we were to compromise and keep pets? .. just sit behind them and range attack while they do little besides block some ranged attacks? .. is that going to be the Sorc identity? That’s pretty woeful to me. Pets don’t bring anything to the table besides body blocks and one heal; whereas Necro pets can scale to noteworthy damage, have legitimate range and mobility, and aren’t plagued by clumsy control schemes.

Plus, we also have Stam based ability morphs in the Sorc lines. Those Stam based morphs don’t align with a “pet” play style of camping behind body blocks. So what? Do we get rid of the Stam skills that people do use in favor of lackluster pets? Why would we do that?

Pets are even more of a liability when we consider that attackers can use them as gap closers with their abilities; targeting the pet to get to you.

When we talk about “play style” for Sorc, nobody has made a good play style case for Sorc pets that fits in the modern state of combat; especially with subclassing.

I can sit here and demonstrate how and why Sorc pets don’t stack up. But what I can’t do is suggest how to make them competitive and keep them lore relevant; in any meaningful play style. And for that reason I think that’s why we need to pivot Sorcs away from pets.

Agree too. In endgame or other competitive situations, pets are completely rejected by skilled players. Neither DPS, Tank, nor Healer use permanent pets, and Atronach is only used because Sorc's other ultimate abilities are harder to use, and the raid needs the buffs provided by Atronach, not its damage.

It's harsh, but various sources have proven that the current pet system in ZOS is a failure and needs a complete overhaul or removal.
The current pet system has several obvious drawbacks:

1. Lack of interactivity and cooperative gameplay: Pets are mostly limited to active and passive attacks, lacking other more interesting roles such as providing shields or consistent buffs/debuffs.

2. Lack of powerful AoE damage: Having already wasted two skill slots, pets not only fail to provide useful buffs but also cannot deliver powerful AoE damage, making them largely useless in the endgame.

3. Blocking vision: This is absolutely terrible, completely disrupting cooperation between Pet-Sorc and other players, especially Tanks. Before subclasses were introduced, I was repeatedly asked to remove pets to avoid obstructing other players' vision. In mechanics like RGhm, which require players to constantly observe their surroundings, pets only become obstacles.

4. Pets are easily killed by mechanics, and resummoning them requires a significant waste of time and resources: While ZOS grants pets some damage immunity in PvE,but they can still be killed by some mechanics like Trials and IA. Furthermore, mechanics like the final boss in Stone Garden, which require players to transform, can force pets to disappear, severely impacting the gameplay experience.

5. Pets cannot proc some sets: Having already wasted skill slots, pets not only lack powerful AoE damage but also reduce the player's chance/frequency of proc sets, significantly diminishing the value of using pets.

All valid.

IMO “pet” summons around Nerco & Warden are more optimized to group play as well as the users own benefit. Most of them being temporary pet spawns and actually contributing toward the gameplay.

Either way, those classes, IMO, are better suited to having pets than Sorcs. The days where Sorc pets made sense lore-wise and were useful are long gone and no amount of tweaking their values is going to make them competitive versus what’s out there.

BretonMage · 2:30AM

If anything, this thread has solidified for me that the class refresh should maintain the broad identities of each skill line, even if some may need tweaking to stay competitive. People who love this class may be attached to any of the 3 lines, and it would be folly to advocate removal of any of them. Even Dark Magic, which I thought was no longer used, seems to have some proponents. The pet sorc has been an iconic ESO subclass (using the term in its proper way, how bout that) for at least 10 years, and of course lightning sorcerers are one of the core fantasy archetypes, and beloved by so many here.

Malyore wrote: »

I'd rather see a character wield a black soul gem in front of them, do the little arm animation to draw out a power, and then fire a magical projectile from it. That way people can still have their purple crystals if they like them, but it's not as absurd looking.
A sorcerers soul gem could even be their own version of the arcanist tome. Especially since arcanist feels, in many ways, like what sorcerer should have been.

The use of black soul gems is considered evil in TES. In any case, we already have a soul magic skill line, and we don't need another.

The mage's power source can be another type of crystal tbh. Emeratis has, in a previous post, mentioned using welkynd stones and the like; we don't need to be constrained to the old design of black soul gems. If the concept is one of mysticism and storing magic in crystals, then we can use literally any kind of magical crystal ZOS deems appropriate.

And as mentioned before, I really hope they will give us more choices in addition to dark/purple. As a lightning mage, I'd love to be able to be bright, dazzling, crackling with white energy. Daedric practitioners may use daedric crystals, but I see storm/lightning sorcs using crystals with a brighter aesthetic.

ZhuJiuyin · 2:55AM

While I really, really, really want to remove the Pet gameplay from Sorc, I have to agree that completely removing Pets from Sorc is unwise, especially since Sorc pet skins are already being sold, and removing them would undoubtedly cause numerous commercial disputes.

The most compromise is, as someone mentioned earlier, to redesign the Pet gameplay from scratch, reducing its importance and shifting the focus to Dark Magic and Storm Calling.

My suggestion is to make the following changes to Pets:

1. Shorten casting time and reduce cost.
2. Eliminate the need for two skill slots.
3. Allow hiding appearances.
4.other↓↓↓

Summon Storm Atronach

: Atronach currently works reasonably well, but lacks burst damage and cannot be self-synergized by the player. I suggest retaining Summon Charged Atronach, slightly increasing its damage to make it a viable area control tool. Greater Storm Atronach should be reworked, removing synergy, reducing its duration, and significantly increasing its damage. Furthermore, it should be redesigned with other appearances. We already have models like Storm Atronach Senche and Storm Atronach Guar in the game; these appearances should be utilized as much as possible, making them player skills.

Summon Unstable Familiar

The two morphs have different appearances, which is good. However, their active abilities are too monotonous and weak, and both need to be redesigned. My suggestion is to change Clannfear's active ability to: a tail-swinging attack that deals physical damage to targets within an 8m radius and inflicts 20 seconds of continuous damage and Minor Breach on the attacked targets. Volatile Familiar's active ability should be changed to: using Daedric energy to grant a shield to the caster, themselves, and allies within 8 feet of the caster for 6 seconds. It also grants them 20 seconds of Major Vitality.

Daedric Curse

The 6-second management of Daedric Curse is extremely unfriendly and is a major reason for the low damage output of pet builds. Unlike DoTs, Curse doesn't deal damage before exploding; if it doesn't explode or is cast too early, it deals no damage at all. Daedric Prey provides an absurd 50% damage buff, completely contradicting ZOS's promise to avoid extreme values when subclasses were released. The reason for this 50% damage buff is simply because Sorc's damage in u35 is too weak; without it, Sorc would be completely useless.
My suggestion is to mimic the new Incinerate (originally Flames of Oblivion), making Haunting Curse explode every 5 seconds on the target and surrounding area, creating an 8m radius for 15 or 20 seconds. Daedric Prey should be removed, the pet damage buff moved to a passive, and a new skill redesigned. For example: Cast a Daedra energy ball, dealing damage to the target. The Daedra energy then absorbs the target's energy, inflicting Major Timidity on the target for 10 seconds and granting you Minor Heroism for 10 seconds.

Summon Winged Twilight

The Twilight Matriarch is one of the few pets I think works well and hardly needs any changes. However, the Twilight Tormentor is terrible and needs a complete rework. The 60% damage boost seems absurd, but even more absurd is that players won't use its active ability because the base damage is too low. Someone suggested using Grievous Twilights, which I think is a great idea and fits the image of an offensive pet. As for the active skill, my suggestion is: Throw a Daedra energy ball, dealing damage to the hit target and other targets within 8 feet. The hit target will suffer Minor Cowardice for 20 seconds. It also increases the summoner's damage by 6%, doubled if the target is a monster, for 20 seconds.

Ward & Bound Armor: Not a pet, and not closely related to pets, therefore will not be discussed further.

Turtle_Bot · 3:04AM

Prophet_of_Malacath wrote: »

Amputating 2/3rds all because some people want to play weather witches? You could just give a storm Skill Style to Wardens and another for Templars if you really just want to glow and sparkle.

I mean, ZOS already did this to Sorcerer 6+ years ago and has repeatedly compounded this self-created issue since then, amputating 5/6ths of all of Sorcs sub-themes just because some people wanted to play zoo keepers.

Yes, the pets are but 1 half of 1 single line from the sorcerer class lines, but ZOS has been treating it over the past 6+ years as if that's the only theme the class has, despite it actually being a tiny, lore inaccurate, part of a single sub-theme that is rarely used by Sorcerers in other ES games.

As per your own descriptions of Sorcerers from ES2-4, Sorcerers who would have used conjuration magic would have used such magic to summon armor, weapons and magic shields/wards for themselves to use in battle, not drag daedra from the plains of oblivion to be baby sat.

Also, if we are just going to reduce lightning theme down to "glow and sparkle" VFX/SFX, then shouldn't we do the same to the other damage types, and remove every fire/frost/poison/bleed/disease ability from the game entirely and turn them into VFX/SFX/skill styles as well?

Turtle_Bot · 3:07AM

BloodstainedFay wrote: »

However, I would like to see further emphasis on the lightning & dark magic side of things. The Daedra should compliment this, not be the main focus.

This right here, is what the majority want and would be the best outcome, a return to how Sorcerer was at the beginning of ESO's lifespan where there was an equal emphasis on all 3 sub-themes and all of them complemented each other, not just a singular focus on any particular one, but enough across each of the themes to allow all of them to be viable either mixed together (as a pure class) or to stand on their own to create new "classes" (with sub-classing).

Malyore · 3:44AM

BretonMage wrote: »

The use of black soul gems is considered evil in TES.

Uh-huh.

As opposed to making pacts with daedra? It's called dark magic– usually implying some heretical and dangerous aspect.

BretonMage wrote: »

In any case, we already have a soul magic skill line, and we don't need another.

The mage's power source can be another type of crystal tbh. Emeratis has, in a previous post, mentioned using welkynd stones and the like; we don't need to be constrained to the old design of black soul gems. If the concept is one of mysticism and storing magic in crystals, then we can use literally any kind of magical crystal ZOS deems appropriate.

You mean the skill line with one ability? Two, if you include the new grimoires. How often are you casting soul trap with your characters? Why would sorcerers having a specialization in using a twisted form of black/dark soul magic be unwarranted to exist alongside the regular soul magic?

I'm fine with them keeping whatever crystals as a source of power. My problem is with throwing and growing rocks. Like I said, I'd rather be using whatever crystal motif by drawing energy out of it and then using that energy for the spell effect.

BretonMage · 4:04AM

Malyore wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

The use of black soul gems is considered evil in TES.

Uh-huh.

As opposed to making pacts with daedra? It's called dark magic– usually implying some heretical and dangerous aspect.

BretonMage wrote: »

In any case, we already have a soul magic skill line, and we don't need another.

The mage's power source can be another type of crystal tbh. Emeratis has, in a previous post, mentioned using welkynd stones and the like; we don't need to be constrained to the old design of black soul gems. If the concept is one of mysticism and storing magic in crystals, then we can use literally any kind of magical crystal ZOS deems appropriate.

You mean the skill line with one ability? Two, if you include the new grimoires. How often are you casting soul trap with your characters? Why would sorcerers having a specialization in using a twisted form of black/dark soul magic be unwarranted to exist alongside the regular soul magic?

I'm fine with them keeping whatever crystals as a source of power. My problem is with throwing and growing rocks. Like I said, I'd rather be using whatever crystal motif by drawing energy out of it and then using that energy for the spell effect.

I mean, there's a difference between enslaving sentient souls on one hand, and using daedric creatures as aids on the other. Practically the entire Mages Guild quest line in TES Oblivion was about how using black soul gems was Evil, whilst summoning daedra has always been acceptable. And heretical isn't quite as bad as evil, of course.

While I understand what you mean by "throwing rocks", I have to say, the way Crystal Fragments hits is really satisfying. The rhythm and impact makes it a lot of fun to use. It just wouldn't feel the same if you were channeling energy.

NxJoeyD · 4:59AM

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

While I really, really, really want to remove the Pet gameplay from Sorc, I have to agree that completely removing Pets from Sorc is unwise, especially since Sorc pet skins are already being sold, and removing them would undoubtedly cause numerous commercial disputes.

The most compromise is, as someone mentioned earlier, to redesign the Pet gameplay from scratch, reducing its importance and shifting the focus to Dark Magic and Storm Calling.

My suggestion is to make the following changes to Pets:

1. Shorten casting time and reduce cost.
2. Eliminate the need for two skill slots.
3. Allow hiding appearances.
4.other↓↓↓

Summon Storm Atronach
: Atronach currently works reasonably well, but lacks burst damage and cannot be self-synergized by the player. I suggest retaining Summon Charged Atronach, slightly increasing its damage to make it a viable area control tool. Greater Storm Atronach should be reworked, removing synergy, reducing its duration, and significantly increasing its damage. Furthermore, it should be redesigned with other appearances. We already have models like Storm Atronach Senche and Storm Atronach Guar in the game; these appearances should be utilized as much as possible, making them player skills.

Summon Unstable Familiar
The two morphs have different appearances, which is good. However, their active abilities are too monotonous and weak, and both need to be redesigned. My suggestion is to change Clannfear's active ability to: a tail-swinging attack that deals physical damage to targets within an 8m radius and inflicts 20 seconds of continuous damage and Minor Breach on the attacked targets. Volatile Familiar's active ability should be changed to: using Daedric energy to grant a shield to the caster, themselves, and allies within 8 feet of the caster for 6 seconds. It also grants them 20 seconds of Major Vitality.

Daedric Curse
The 6-second management of Daedric Curse is extremely unfriendly and is a major reason for the low damage output of pet builds. Unlike DoTs, Curse doesn't deal damage before exploding; if it doesn't explode or is cast too early, it deals no damage at all. Daedric Prey provides an absurd 50% damage buff, completely contradicting ZOS's promise to avoid extreme values when subclasses were released. The reason for this 50% damage buff is simply because Sorc's damage in u35 is too weak; without it, Sorc would be completely useless.
My suggestion is to mimic the new Incinerate (originally Flames of Oblivion), making Haunting Curse explode every 5 seconds on the target and surrounding area, creating an 8m radius for 15 or 20 seconds. Daedric Prey should be removed, the pet damage buff moved to a passive, and a new skill redesigned. For example: Cast a Daedra energy ball, dealing damage to the target. The Daedra energy then absorbs the target's energy, inflicting Major Timidity on the target for 10 seconds and granting you Minor Heroism for 10 seconds.

Summon Winged Twilight
The Twilight Matriarch is one of the few pets I think works well and hardly needs any changes. However, the Twilight Tormentor is terrible and needs a complete rework. The 60% damage boost seems absurd, but even more absurd is that players won't use its active ability because the base damage is too low. Someone suggested using Grievous Twilights, which I think is a great idea and fits the image of an offensive pet. As for the active skill, my suggestion is: Throw a Daedra energy ball, dealing damage to the hit target and other targets within 8 feet. The hit target will suffer Minor Cowardice for 20 seconds. It also increases the summoner's damage by 6%, doubled if the target is a monster, for 20 seconds.

Ward & Bound Armor: Not a pet, and not closely related to pets, therefore will not be discussed further.

If cosmetics are one of the only hold outs here the Devs have ALOT of options. The Devs could provide players who have pet skins with skill styles as lateral compensation for the change, that would be fine.

As for your proposed changes:

Atronach: These suggestions make the skill more usable & effective for sure, but how is this not just behaving like a “Pestilent Colossus 2.0” .. Again, if identity is part of the equation here do we really want Sorc skills that feel like reskins of what already exists elsewhere?

Unstable Familair: the Major Vitility is good but the rest still leaves question. How will the damage factor scale on a Clanfear when the player is a Mag based build and won’t scale physical damage? The Minor Breach is useless IMO because Betty Netch is everywhere so unless the pet is going to actively reapply we have to remember that with subclassing everyone has access to free cleanses so Breach applied via a pet in this manner is still going to be sub-par in many gameplay aspects. We can’t ask for ludicrous damage scaling so unless we’re going to say the pets being self buffs rather than debuffs there’s always going to be better choices to slot.

Daedric Curse: Ok this is good. This is an excellent idea IMO that really makes the skill a viable DoT. Currently it’s so predictable and slow that opponents simply heal through both bursts and the damage application ends up being nearly or fully negated. Even the heavy pet buffs Daedric Prey provides really isn’t enough to encourage Sorcs to run pets anymore, which should tell us all something.

Winged Twilight: This one is even harder to save IMO. The only reason anyone slots it is for the heal, and let’s be honest; there’s better out there. Warren’s Arctic Wind (and morphs) provide an equitable heal plus a buff. The changes you suggest, while an improvement, again, just like the Familiar are susceptible to a Netch cleanse. We could add a buff to the Twilights heal but in doing so we, essentially, have a repeat of Arctic Wind which becomes redundant. Why would we need to take an existing skill and put it in pet form?

This is the problem with the pets, there’s really no good way to bring any real value to the table with them when compared to the skills that are out there in the game now. And that’s not even considering Sorc pets notoriously clumsy controls, trying to direct and activate abilities while going through rotation just adds to the pain points.

If we all make the mistake of looking at Sorc in a vaccum, as if nothing else comparatively exists then we’re going to end up with a sub standard class. If we advocate for skills just because “that’s what Sorc has always been” and neglect what every other class is bringing to the table, mechanically, then we’re porked.

Sorcs have nothing that, mechanically, behaves like other classes: high scalable output skills that execute their function with smoothness and quickness. Skills that are formidable because they’re optimized and complement builds as well as fit lore.

If that’s where the bar has been raised in combat then the sad reality is that these pets will never, mechanically, meet it.

Giving Sorc pets debuffs will see those insta-cleansed .. giving them self buffs will likely still see them lag behind when Scribed skills, other Class skills, and gear sets all bring buffs plus MORE to the table .. giving them increased damage will still see them also lag behind other skills as they’re not precise to control so applying that damage isn’t reliable.

Here’s an idea, run a poll for the entire Forum and ask people: “When was the last time you saw a death recap and a Sorc pet was anywhere on the list”

We just don’t see Sorc pets mechanically competitive anymore. Human beings didn’t survive for tens of thousands of years by doing the same things over and over, they survived by keeping what works and evolving what didn’t … the same logic applies here: keep what works, evolve what doesn’t.

The Devs never said we were losing subclassing or that they were re-coding the mechanics of the game, so when we think about what can benefit Sorcs those answers need to fit into the scope of subclassing still existing & the scope of the games mechanics. If this was still OG ESO pets might still be viable; but not anymore.

ZhuJiuyin · 5:36AM

NxJoeyD wrote: »

[
The Devs could provide players who have pet The Minor Breach is useless IMO because Betty Netch is everywhere so unless the pet is going to actively reapply we have to remember that with subclassing everyone has access to free cleanses so Breach applied via a pet in this manner is still going to be sub-par in many gameplay aspects.

This made me realize, why is it necessary for the pet to attack every 2 seconds?

What if we reduced the pet's attack frequency to once every 3 or 5 seconds, and made each attack deal more damage and apply a debuff to the target (or a buff to the player) with each attack? Wouldn't that make the pet more useful?

If do this ,in PvE, the pet's damage would increase, making it more valuable. In PvP, the pet would consistently apply debuffs to enemies and become more threatening. Enemies would no longer be able to ignore the pet's damage and would have to weigh whether to attack the pet or the summoner first. We could even utilize Battle Spirit; for example, when Battle Spirit is active, the pet's damage, healing, and shields would be increased by 50%.

Malyore · 5:58AM

BretonMage wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

The use of black soul gems is considered evil in TES.

Uh-huh.

As opposed to making pacts with daedra? It's called dark magic– usually implying some heretical and dangerous aspect.

BretonMage wrote: »

In any case, we already have a soul magic skill line, and we don't need another.

The mage's power source can be another type of crystal tbh. Emeratis has, in a previous post, mentioned using welkynd stones and the like; we don't need to be constrained to the old design of black soul gems. If the concept is one of mysticism and storing magic in crystals, then we can use literally any kind of magical crystal ZOS deems appropriate.

You mean the skill line with one ability? Two, if you include the new grimoires. How often are you casting soul trap with your characters? Why would sorcerers having a specialization in using a twisted form of black/dark soul magic be unwarranted to exist alongside the regular soul magic?

I'm fine with them keeping whatever crystals as a source of power. My problem is with throwing and growing rocks. Like I said, I'd rather be using whatever crystal motif by drawing energy out of it and then using that energy for the spell effect.

I mean, there's a difference between enslaving sentient souls on one hand, and using daedric creatures as aids on the other. Practically the entire Mages Guild quest line in TES Oblivion was about how using black soul gems was Evil, whilst summoning daedra has always been acceptable. And heretical isn't quite as bad as evil, of course.

While I understand what you mean by "throwing rocks", I have to say, the way Crystal Fragments hits is really satisfying. The rhythm and impact makes it a lot of fun to use. It just wouldn't feel the same if you were channeling energy.

That distinction makes sense. What does it imply then for the passive in the soul magic skill line that has a percentage to capture an enemys soul upon death?
I've probably taken thousands of sentient souls from just that passive alone. Have you? Does this make our characters evil-doers?

BretonMage · 6:18AM

Malyore wrote: »

That distinction makes sense. What does it imply then for the passive in the soul magic skill line that has a percentage to capture an enemys soul upon death?
I've probably taken thousands of sentient souls from just that passive alone. Have you? Does this make our characters evil-doers?

Lol, fair point, though at least the visuals don't remind us of the immorality of it all

spartaxoxo · 6:48AM

NxJoeyD wrote: »

We don’t need combat that involves nearly as many pets as we have players but that’s what we’re seeing. We have to ask ourselves how can Sorc better bring competitiveness to the table and, IMO, that means leaving pets in the past for Sorcs.

We are seeing so many pets because they're popular. The class refreshes should be informed by what players actually like to play and what skills they are actually choosing to use and have chosen to use the entire time. Not by what someone thinks others ought to play.

Sorcs do not have to lose an entire skill line and a main theme to be competitive. Sorcs have been competitive off and on for the entire history of the game.

Radiate77 · 8:17AM

Hey I just want to say, I really love your redesign ideas for keeps in Cyrodiil, I know we’ve all been talking about your Sorc proposal, but you’re onto something with built-in siege towers and race thematic castles.

Imagine if each castle had its own strategies based on unique layouts? Like what if one castle was a labyrinth, and another played out like the live-action trailer from a decade ago with tightrope traversal?

There’s so much potential with Cyrodiil, if there was only a drive to actually meet it.

IviRo · 9:09AM

Radiate77 wrote: »

Hey I just want to say, I really love your redesign ideas for keeps in Cyrodiil, I know we’ve all been talking about your Sorc proposal, but you’re onto something with built-in siege towers and race thematic castles.

Imagine if each castle had its own strategies based on unique layouts? Like what if one castle was a labyrinth, and another played out like the live-action trailer from a decade ago with tightrope traversal?

There’s so much potential with Cyrodiil, if there was only a drive to actually meet it.

Oh, thank you. By the way, those are good ideas too.

P.S. Finally, someone noticed that there are other ideas in the post that don't concern sorcerers.

RebornV3x · 9:13AM

Malyore wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

The Sorcerer rework needs to make the sorc a full battlemage class or summoner class ZOS needs to choose one or the other in my opinion either remove the pets and give them to necro and make necromancer the summoner class or lean into it and give sorc more pets and synergy with pets.

I truly believe there are better options than an extreme dichotomy– chopping off an entire class identity is not okay. They don't need to "just choose one", they need to actually manage and develop their game to allow for both playstyles. They might have to brainstorm a bit and be willing to work outside of the box on a really small scale, but there have already been a multitude of options and suggestions in this thread alone that would allow for both styles to exist. To ignore this route and lean into only one style would be foolishly damaging, regardless of the fallback that multi/subclassing can partially reaccommodate. The whole reason they're doing this refresh is to not have to rely on multiclassing.

The problem with this thinking is your going to get a useless class that is bad at both spell casting and pets that suck. Unless ZOS is gonna give Sorcerer another skill line or two to accommodate both play styles they have to choose battle mage or summoner. The Sorcerer can not continue to be pulled in two different directions at once and keep having an identity crisis.

NxJoeyD · 9:56AM

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

[
The Devs could provide players who have pet The Minor Breach is useless IMO because Betty Netch is everywhere so unless the pet is going to actively reapply we have to remember that with subclassing everyone has access to free cleanses so Breach applied via a pet in this manner is still going to be sub-par in many gameplay aspects.

This made me realize, why is it necessary for the pet to attack every 2 seconds?

What if we reduced the pet's attack frequency to once every 3 or 5 seconds, and made each attack deal more damage and apply a debuff to the target (or a buff to the player) with each attack? Wouldn't that make the pet more useful?

If do this ,in PvE, the pet's damage would increase, making it more valuable. In PvP, the pet would consistently apply debuffs to enemies and become more threatening. Enemies would no longer be able to ignore the pet's damage and would have to weigh whether to attack the pet or the summoner first. We could even utilize Battle Spirit; for example, when Battle Spirit is active, the pet's damage, healing, and shields would be increased by 50%.

In limited PvE that might be ok but in PvP having a pet apply a debuff would just get insta-cleansed.

As for attacking once every 3 to 5 seconds, I personally, don’t think that’s going to stack up. In Trials DPS needs to cook out coordinated DPS, not hen peck at the enemy, which is essentially what this would become.

If we hiked up pet damage 50% via Battle Spirit now I think we’re making pets OP. Their current only real benefit is a body block and some healing, that’s it’s. Their existence will always provide some degree of body blocking for the summoner so we can’t ignore that. Giving them too much damage would make them OP when combined with that fact.

The real problem with Sorc pets and damage is that they’re unreliable. Those pets are quirky to control and can’t keep the fact pace of PvP combat to really be effective.

NxJoeyD · 10:30AM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

We don’t need combat that involves nearly as many pets as we have players but that’s what we’re seeing. We have to ask ourselves how can Sorc better bring competitiveness to the table and, IMO, that means leaving pets in the past for Sorcs.

We are seeing so many pets because they're popular. The class refreshes should be informed by what players actually like to play and what skills they are actually choosing to use and have chosen to use the entire time. Not by what someone thinks others ought to play.

Sorcs do not have to lose an entire skill line and a main theme to be competitive. Sorcs have been competitive off and on for the entire history of the game.

We’re seeing so many pets yet nearly none of them are Sorc pets; they’re Neceo pets followed by Warden pets .. because those pets are actually effective in their mechanics.

The only Sorcs still running pets are legacy builds and, for the life of me, I can’t imagine why. I get that people might like a particular play style but not one single person in this thread, so far, has demonstrated any meaningful aspect of this play style.

People are just saying “I like pets” but, by the numbers, they don’t measure up at all. It’s not that I want to delete pets “just because”, it’s due to evaluating how they are built into the game, how they function in comparison to the other class abilities Sorcs have to go up against.

Experienced players aren’t running Sorc pets for all the reasons I’ve stated above.

We can have flexibility in play style with Sorcs but we can’t be both a pet class as well as a non-pet class; it’s not working anymore.

Subclassing raised the bar on combat and mechanics.

One suggestion for Sorcs would be a Daedric ability that provides the caster with a reduced feat cost (ie Stam). Sorcs were built as a primary Mag pool class. Over the years they’ve been given some Stam based morphs that supplement Stam based Sorcs but, overall, they’re a Mag class. .. with subclassing the Stamina resource has become over-biased. So much more counterplay is now centered around block, dodge, and break free; much more than it used to be. This puts Stam based builds at an advantage, not only do they have a higher counterplay resources pool but their damage scales off that resource. Sorcs, in general, can’t say the same. We have to allocate into Stam and separately into Mag to scale our output. Pets do nothing for us here and an ability that a Sorc could cast on themselves to, in a sense, make their Stam pool more aligned with current combat would be a big benefit.

Subsequently Sorc damage skill mechanics are lackluster at best. Half of our skills require our opponents to step in stupid, we have one that’s a poorly optimized DoT that’s easily out healed, our execute skill is the worst of them all .. those two pet slots could better serve us as either utility or output.

Our pets are redundant and not useful. The Twlights only benefit is its heal but we have Vibrant Shroud so why do we need the Twilight? It didn’t do anywhere near enough damage for the resource cost. We have to spend to summon then spend again to heal, we’re over paying in resource to use a Twilight when we could have just hit Vibrant Shroud. We don’t need two strong self heals so, again, why keep this? What’s the benefit?

Familiar is even worse, no heal and junk damage for the Mag cost.

Even raising the damage output values on pets won’t help because of how they’re built. They’re unreliable as damage dealers. You can’t specifically manage their output to deal damage in current combat, the damage is too easily avoided no matter what its value is.

For 3,300 Mag there’s a laundry list of available skills which deal FAR more damage and/or provide passive benefits. That’s said, where’s the benefit?

In order for Sorc pets to work in the current game state the Devs would have to completely re-write & re-code whole new mechanics; basically delete the current pet coding and start from scratch. That’s not what the Devs stated was being done and it’s unrealistic to think we could ever get that.

Now, if a Dev comes in here and says “oh, hey, we’re considering completely rebuilding the mechanics of pets”, well then ok, maybe we can talk about how they could work. … but with their current mechanics there’s no way.