PVP sets rebalance??

Freez6661 · February 7

are we ever gonna see any sets rebalance for PVP??? Im sorry but I'm quite sick of the same 5 sets people use, this haven't changed for years
finding your perfect build is the core of this game, many people spend time testing and finding something interesting but when was the last time you changed the meta?? 4-5 years ago when everyone was runnin mara's??
there are hundreds of sets and yet somehow they all useless, there is no way any of you developers play PVP cuz if you played it you would knew this
most of sets are dead, what's the point of having set like Hrothgar? it's just bad you nerfed it to the point where it just can't be used and there are so many potentially good sets but you nerfed them so bad I don't believe you actually even tested your own nerfes, I remember snake in the stars was nerfed 3 times of what it was in a first place how you can create a set and then nerfe it to 3 times of what it was I don't understand

I'm deeply shocked how you run your game, look at dota 2 they change meta every patch that's how it's never boring, I'm not saying meta should be changed every patch but at least once in 12-18 months we need rebalance.. not full rebalance but small adjusts here and there that's all what we need, find what's been dead for years and make it to the point where we can use it, like most of arenas weapons are useless how comes it doesn't even bothers you?

and what now? big news teso developers finally decided to do their job and what do we see? another patch where you completely ignore one of 2-3 biggest things for PVP players in the game

p.s. i don't even think devs knows what are those 5 sets people use 90% of time, just in case it's rally cry, wretched, bloodspawn, chudan, null arca and couple more like pyre for dk

Ratzkifal · February 7

I hate the current meta too, but it's not like ZOS doesn't make changes that hugely shake up the item set meta. The real issue is the one you mentioned where they overnerf certain item sets, which more or less results in the following sequence of events:

Boring and stale meta with people turtling up because ballgroups are out of control and counterplay is nonexistent.
New set gets added that is meant to counter either the turtle tin cans or the ballgroups
Everyone starts losing their mind that these new options are so powerful that they shift the meta and force everyone to play around the new additions
The same sets get overnerfed, resulting once again in a boring and stale meta with people turtling up

Snake in the Stars needs a buff. Hrothgar needs a buff. Spellshredder needs a buff. Most (not all) class sets need a buff.
Also Monomyth frontbar should probably come with major vulnerability, not minor, because everyone already has minor vuln on them anyway from Elemental Susceptibility (concussed), which means the Major Force you gain comes at no downside.

I do think when it comes to item sets the current meta isn't actually that bad overall. There are some outliers, like Monomyth and Null-Arca, but the main culprit is subclassing enabling a lot of broken interactions. Mara's Balm is a decent set, but if you combine it with Netch and Extended Ritual, it becomes a problem. Especially because both Restoring Light and Animal Companions offer a lot of benefits to PvP builds. I wouldn't want Mara's Balm to get nerfed, but at least until all the class refreshes are through, we need siege weapon effects to become uncleansable if we want them to retain any usefulness post-subclassing. Otherwise the solution is running Plague Break and Rush of Agony to counter cleanses and guess what happens when everybody starts running those sets - the sets become obnoxiously omnipresent and get nerfed, indirectly buffing ballgroups once again. Everything is connected.

BardokRedSnow · February 7

Only request I have is to make Hrothgars n Chill great again lol, the only problem with Hrothgars was the glitches that let me proc it with siege, which was hilarious and a lot of fun but obviously not intended.

Set the damage back to what it was, everyone's so tanky as is, and its not like there's a need to worry about people dying too much with VD around being so oppressive with oblivion damage.

Damage meta is best meta, and that meta was so much fun.

YandereGirlfriend · February 7

I have been won over to the philosophy that we shouldn't be trying to balance PvP using sets.

If something is too strong - nerf it. If something is too weak - buff it. Everything else is just overthinking.

For example, if we could re-wind time back to when Snake came out, I would now say: "Instead of launching this weird niche set to supposedly counter stacking ballgroup/small-man sticky HOTs... why don't we just get rid of stacking sticky HOTs by limiting them to one copy per morph per player?" And that would have been the infinitely superior solution. It actually does the thing that players want rather than relying upon hope and vibes that the set will somehow save PvP.

A set being better against one thing versus another is fine. But situations where players are relying upon items sets as a sort of Holy Grail to instantly achieve some broader balance objective is playing simply with fire.

olsborg · February 7

The "play as you want" notion is dead in the water, I remember i started playing ESO because the devs said you can play as you want here. If you play as you want and not what the meta dictates you are also...dead in the water.
Once upon a time you could play your own thing, offmeta build, but not anymore because the power that the meta holds atm is absolute.

Freez6661 · February 7

theorycrafting is the funnies part for so many people who just testing things all the time but by this time we tested literally everything we could, I see nothing bad if meta could be changed so I have more reasons to stuck in game for hours and this is repetitive

right now there are 2-3 effective builds everyone plays but we used to have 20-30 and even more every build we made 3-4 years ago was good enough to play against every other build and have fun, now I put all the best damage sets in the game and still I can't deal damage this is not fun, actually my enemy gonna deal more damage running 2 defensive sets this is ridiculous

now me and my friends are thinking about getting back to the game and guess what? devs haven't gave us any reasons to do so, is there anything new? no

i don't care about dk it's just one class we play all the classes but there is nothing new in PVP so we're not coming back since there is nothing new for us to do (especially with those trash 2 sided BGs that we REALLY hate)

brandsnipe · February 8

Agree. A lot of sets need to be brought up to rallying cry's level and even then i'm not sure there is a set better than rally. increase the penalty of groups members is the only way i see other sets competing with rally while still pushing solo and small groups. For every group member, the set loses 1/5 effectiveness.

brandsnipe · February 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Only request I have is to make Hrothgars n Chill great again lol, the only problem with Hrothgars was the glitches that let me proc it with siege, which was hilarious and a lot of fun but obviously not intended.

Set the damage back to what it was, everyone's so tanky as is, and its not like there's a need to worry about people dying too much with VD around being so oppressive with oblivion damage.

Damage meta is best meta, and that meta was so much fun.

I would love this set to get a buff, even at just 20% it would be worth slotting in PvP again.

xylena · February 8

Classes and weapons should define the meta, not sets.

Sets should be for niche playstyles and filling gaps, not the center of the meta.

Burst procs need to be gone from PvP forever.

Burst damage is supposed to be a mark of skill, not something you get off-gcd for free from your pants. Viper, Skoria, Caluurion, Tarnished, all ruined the game and had to be completely gutted, only to be replaced by crap like Null Arca, Kjalnar in duels, and the inexplicable persistent abomination known as Rushing Agony (like why does this even do damage at all lol).

Freez6661 · February 8

so instead of having different play-styles we all should stuck to play the only one playstyle/build? ganker/nb brawler/shield sorc/man who can reduce health regeneration and others, all this playstiles are dead, how is it fun playing against the same build over and over again??

there are 10 skills + 2 ultimates you can put to your panel, there are not so many combos of those 10 skills in the game so it puts us in position where we have 2-3 effective combinations of skills and that's it, how is this interesting??? sets are making the whole difference

now when there are ~5 sets everyone uses, pvp became so boring and people left the game FOREVER

do you think having 4x4 BG where each of your team member got 3mil damage and you guys managed to do 2 kills all together is fun for players? nah we quit those kind of BGs and this game, this is boring

facts are on my side now devs trying to impress us with DK rework, really good i'm glad they doing it but it's clearly not enough

i don't understand why killing class identity and builds/playstyle identity is good, the more playstyles and variety = better, more reasons to play this game

people forgot but only 5 years ago stam and mag builds were completely different and pvp was on another level compared to what we have now

xylena wrote: »

Classes and weapons should define the meta, not sets.

Sets should be for niche playstyles and filling gaps, not the center of the meta.

Burst procs need to be gone from PvP forever.

Burst damage is supposed to be a mark of skill, not something you get off-gcd for free from your pants. Viper, Skoria, Caluurion, Tarnished, all ruined the game and had to be completely gutted, only to be replaced by crap like Null Arca, Kjalnar in duels, and the inexplicable persistent abomination known as Rushing Agony (like why does this even do damage at all lol).

MincMincMinc · February 9

xylena wrote: »

Classes and weapons should define the meta, not sets.

Sets should be for niche playstyles and filling gaps, not the center of the meta.

Burst procs need to be gone from PvP forever.

Burst damage is supposed to be a mark of skill, not something you get off-gcd for free from your pants. Viper, Skoria, Caluurion, Tarnished, all ruined the game and had to be completely gutted, only to be replaced by crap like Null Arca, Kjalnar in duels, and the inexplicable persistent abomination known as Rushing Agony (like why does this even do damage at all lol).

Sets sell DLC though.

TBH 5 piece sets have lost so much in terms of how much they contribute to your overall output. Even in nocp bgs I can close out kills all the time without balorgh or acuity procced. Just look at how bloated skills are getting. Some have multiple paragraph tooltips that do 2-3 skills worth of effects compared to older skills. Plenty of skills are even eclipsing ultimates, like merciless resolve or deep fissure for example. My philosophy is that at this point you may as well give up on a generic stat build and have some absurd exponential setup like balorgh/acuity ....or go full proc.....or go full bomber.

Then we get into things like how the stat system has been butchered and trivialized. For example something like healing soul having major vitality is essentially equivalent to me slapping on 1000wd to achieve the same heal. So 1/3 of a skill is equivalent to a 1k wd proc, why bend over backwards to run some 5 piece 450wd 2/3 uptime WD set to try and match this?....... Stuff like how health recovery was simply removed from PvP (all because zos introduced the recov per ult cp during the reworks).........Or how impen was gutted during the trait reworks, but no new sources were added. However instead zos kept adding more crit damage and chance sources. Drastically cranking up how much RNG determines the outcome of fights.......Or how with hybridization zos nearly doubled the available regen sources in the game making it so max mag/stam are not needed for capacity sustain.......Or how the sources of speed buffs have doubled the average speed practically making sprint nearly pointless for most builds while undermining the need for gapclosers, because the available snare immunity skills offer like 2x-3x 5 piece sets worth of passives.

xylena · February 9

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Sets sell DLC though

Sets can sell by appealing to RP themes like frost mage, summoner, etc. You can push a new "mandatory" DLC with sets similar to Rallying Cry, no burst procs required. I would rather fight a million Rallying/Essence stat clones over dealing with Null Arca, RoA, etc.

MincMincMinc · February 9

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Sets sell DLC though

Sets can sell by appealing to RP themes like frost mage, summoner, etc. You can push a new "mandatory" DLC with sets similar to Rallying Cry, no burst procs required. I would rather fight a million Rallying/Essence stat clones over dealing with Null Arca, RoA, etc.

Yeah agreed. I never liked proc sets undermining the gcd combat system. So many pvp players I know left the game because we landed in bad half year long metas determined by one trick DLC proc sets. I practically lost half my friends to the viper tremor meta, then the other half quit during post summerset sloads/soul meta. After that it feels the game has just been in a boring combat state limbo for like 6-7 years now.

katorga · February 9

Remove RoA.
Remove Major Breach from Shalks.
Remove warden charm, all charms really they are buggy.
Something is off when 90% of the players have the betty netch following them around.

Of course that will be out of date when the DK refresh hits and we get the new OP meta for the few remaining PVP'rs.

Or go full, mandatory vengeance and get rid of the last remnants of PVP players.

mav1234 · February 9

the massive proliferation of every major damage buff, combined with the ability to access the strongest ability of any class, and to fill in any gaps with scribing, has created a huge power creep in pvp where the meta is insanely strong.

I quit in 2023, came back this year, and it is unquestionably worse. The homogenization is insane. The game may feel better in a lot of ways, but subclassing has hilariously made it feel like I am just playing against the same build every single bg and all of cyrodiil, maybe depending on if someone takes storm calling or restoring light.

Freez6661 · February 9

100% agree here

mav1234 wrote: »

The game may feel better in a lot of ways, but subclassing has hilariously made it feel like I am just playing against the same build every single bg and all of cyrodiil, maybe depending on if someone takes storm calling or restoring light.